Do you have some stats to back that up?

Chivalry be damned. Had the table been turned, I'd have jumped all over CS from my daughters mother. It's just as much her obligation as it is mine and my child should not be 'shortchanged' in the way of life department due to chivalry of all things.

I wouldn't call that chivalry as much as downright stupidity and not looking out for the best interest of the child(ren).

JMO

Who watches the children while mother is at work?

Who takes them to appointments and play dates and practices now?

You see, fathers would have to work less hours but would be able to do all of these things. It would be a mirror image.
*********************

Well, in my world I do all that...I am SAHM and all that is my job. H does help. Most (but not all) of my friends are SAHM's or freelance.....or work from home. I am friendly w/ a couple of doctors but they all decided to take PT hours once children came.
I guess 1 of the reasons the custody model falls to the mother is because traditionally she has had more available time to take care of them.
I still live in that world.

So, I guess you are saying you'd hire a nanny to take care of them durring the day etc.....

What a man you are, that would take a child from it's mother and then make her pay for the honor.

Do I have stats? No, how could I when women win default custody and no one studies this. I can only speak from personal experience. Chivalry is very real, it is the reason you accept the child alimony system at face value without following the money.

I have already told you, fathers would have to work less hours. How is this different from what many single mothers do?

As for hiring a nanny? Most single mothers work and send the kids to daycare. Why is this ok for mothers but not fathers?

Are you suggesting that fathers should stop working and depend 100% on welfare or the mother (child alimony)?

Bottom Line Nia, if you are ok with how things are today in relation to custody, then reversing it should be treated the same. Fathers are not inferior to mothers so the reversal shouldn't change your feelings.

I have already told you, fathers would have to work less hours. How is this different from what many single mothers do?

As for hiring a nanny? Most single mothers work and send the kids to daycare. Why is this ok for mothers but not fathers?

Are you suggesting that fathers should stop working and depend 100% on welfare or the mother (child alimony)?
*************************************************

I'm not suggesting anything...except maybe marriage counseling to avoid the divorce.....I just wanted to get a picture of how it might work.
But, If the mother has a high paying job and can afford the child alimony ( and dad wants to be a SAHD) I think that would be a great idea.
I am not trying to debate you. I don't think you are the norm.

I have to be honest w/ you.....most of the husbands/fathers I KNOW wouldn't go for it.....they wouldn't want full custody.....partial custody yes...and most have managed to work that out civially....eventually.

The 2 guys I know that WOULD want full custody....the 1 I mentioned earlier whose is trying to get custody of 3 girls from XGF...but, he has a new wife (and baby) at home to take care of the girls.
and my nephew.......who happens to live at home w/ his mother.......who would happily quit her job to watch her grandson.

It has nothing to do with the measure of a man, woman or chimpanzee for that matter. A child is brought into this world by two parents and two parents are obligated to financially support that child.

Ok fine then, let's just say that we reversed the system and mothers paid the child alimony. That isn't really important anyway.

What is important is that if we reversed the system we would free women up to pursue their careers without being tied down to their children. Fathers would enjoy raising their children (and there is alot of joy there).

So often we here how men have it made with only having to pay child alimony. So why is it that we offer to trade places, women don't want it?

Well, marriage counseling doesn't really play in here since we are already in the custody hearing (in this discussion).

Your experience differs from mine but you what I really want to know is:

Would it be ok with you if we mirrored the custody system by reversing the gender of the default custodial parent? Why or why not?

o often we here how men have it made with only having to pay child alimony. So why is it that we offer to trade places, women don't want it?
****************************
I guess a few women would....would trade custody to the F to pursue her career (heck, I know 1 woman who gave up custody her kids w/ her to pursue an affair).....but, like you.....I don't think they are the norm.

Agreed, it isn't the norm that mothers would trade places with estranged fathers.

Obviously being a single mother is still better than being an estranged father.

Would it be ok with you if we mirrored the custody system by reversing the gender of the default custodial parent? Why or why not?
**********************************

It's a tough question for me.....I would prefer they look at each individual case more closely and decide which parent the child would be better off....instead of faulting to either gender.....I do believe there are plenty of fathers who prefer full custody and would be the better parent.

Me too Nia but in the interest of understanding of where fathers are coming from go hypothetical with me. If we reversed the system and made no changes (except the default gender), would it be ok with you?

Obviously being a single mother is still better than being an estranged father.
*************************************
I don't really understand why you are asking ME that question....but,hypothetically... I'll say yes, I could agree.

I am assuming the men have the right to refuse if they are not interested in full custody......and what would happen then?

Same thing that happens now. Mother would be offered the children.

If she didn't want them then I guess they go up for adoption.

I am thinking that mothers would hate the idea of being reduced to minimal time with their children and having money extorted from them. In fact, the stats show that even now mother are less likely to pay than fathers (percentage-wise).

I am also thinking that mothers would be quite unhappy with a system that only allows her a chance at custody A) if the father willingly gives the children up B) The mother can prove the father unfit.

That is the exact system fathers are forced to live under. Should we be happy about it?

Remember, nothing is changing except the default gender. So here is a scenario that happens alot today, only my example will be in reverse.

Father decides to cheat on his wife. He then files for divorce. She wants to work it out but he refuses and she is forced into divorce.

Having no control over the divorce proceedings she atleast wants to tell the judge that HE is the one who broke up the family via adultery and refusing to work things out. The judge doesn't care and awards the children to him because she has failed to prove that he is unfit.

Fair?

You see he knew when he cheated and when he forced the divorce that he would get the children. He had nothing to lose and was therefore more motivated to divorce and not to try to save the marriage.

Having no control over the divorce proceedings she atleast wants to tell the judge that HE is the one who broke up the family via adultery and refusing to work things out. The judge doesn't care and awards the children to him because she has failed to prove that he is unfit.

Fair?

You see he knew when he cheated and when he forced the divorce that he would get the children. He had nothing to lose and was therefore more motivated to divorce and not to try to save the marriage.
**************************************

No it's not fair at all Garak....it's not fair for men or women to do that......and I don't doubt it happens.....but,you know as well as i do that there are lots of other scenarios.

I don't like Divorce..that's why i tried very hard to avoid it....even if that meant storming my H's cave, ya know?

So, yeah, some of us fathers don't feel good about supporting this system.

Garak - statistics only prove that someone did a study - numbers can be skewed to prove whatever point.

The facts are - the courts are not fair to fathers. I have never said that they were fair. I feel strongly that children need their fathers and mothers who sow disrespect and estrangement between their children and the children's father are unfit mothers. And fathers who do the same deserve the same condemnation.

Any time someone seeks to generalize that all x wives are this way or all x husbands are that way weaken their case because almost anyone can see the bias and invalidity of the argument.

Men also get the short end of the domestic violence argument. But I gotta tell you - my hay-bail-throwing meat-fisted father could out-abuse my 5'3" mother verbally and physically any day of the week - and he hurt his children deeply for his lack of self-control. I never saw my mother hit first. I never saw her in my early years raise her voice first. And I never heard her say the vile names in anywhere equal measure as my father served up at her.

My own witness is that yes - women hit - but Dad started it. In my work as a shelter-worker and women's services assistant director - I saw the effects of abuse.

Garak - you may be a saint - and every man you've ever met likewise. But you aint met them all- my daddy was a first class b*st*rd most of my childhood, therefore your generalizations are just that - generalizations. Contempt for mothers will not win fathers their rights. So please consider a different approach to win your battle in the courts. Children need their fathers. They need the emotional, mental, physical support of their fathers. Fight against ALL deadbeats - not just deadbeat mothers and you will win more hearts to your cause!

P.S. - my daddy finally sobered up - more than 10 years after I left home. He never got to be a father to his baby girls - not because his wife shut them away from him - but because he locked up his heart against them and their mother - and became a man to be feared instead of trusted as a daughter should be able to trust her father. He is a prime example of why fathers abdicated to mothers in the courts so very long ago - my dad like many dads of that generation, where divorce began to be common - never figured out HOW to be a DADDY! So they laid the precedence in the courts that moms get the kids and it went too far. But this is where it began!!

KaylaAndy,

You admit that men get the shaft in areas of domestic violence and in family court. Then you make an excuse for it.

Are you interested in equality or not?

EEEuuuu, I am ex-wife who did NOT want the divorce even though he was not faithful...I wanted counseling, I wanted to save the marriage and he still left the marriage. so all these years I have had THIS perspective that I have no sympathy for him b/c many people tried to tell him divorce was a bad idea and he thought it would be great.

Yes, he has offered to exchange places since that time and yes I adamently refused and even refused to revisit the custody issue. I appreciate the other fathers' viewpoints who did not want the divorce...I suppose I have thought they were all alike!!! Glad to try to open my mind.

ALSO have you guys completely threadjacked moonlight's thread?

M