KLD, I don't believe I have ever seen a BS exhibit as much restraint as you have. This philanderer is a piece of work! I think you have enough to confront and cop an attitude just with his paying the OW's insurance. Just decide on a few little pieces of unrefutable evidence and kick him to the curb. Cry and carry on and leave him lying his hiney off, just tell him you need space. He's gonna grovel and try to get you to believe him, but in the mean time you can continue your accounting forensics to determine how deep this goes. You don't need the whole enchilada to confront him. He's already draining your emotions dry. I confronted with a phone number, a zabasearch and the length of the phone call.
It got worse as I dug my heels in...You have to get yourself out from under this weight....just don't spill your guts just yet...just get him out and play his game til you are ready to expose all you know to him..Then decide if R is possible. Praying for you GF

I hadn't thought of it before, and I'm not in y'all's position, but I have to agree with whknghrd. Like I said before, be mad! Stand your ground! I've seen way too many cases here of women who 'love' their husbands so much that they're willing to back down on what THEY want, to make sure the H doesn't back down and leave them. Be mad!

Cat is right on, you have to get very angry. You have to stand up for yourself. He isn't going to do it for you.
GF

Kirk - thanks for the kick in the rear. I do need to stop procrastinating and having excuses for not confronting him.

I am so angry I can't see straight when I'm away from him. When I'm with him I really just don't feel much at all. I have pushed these feelings aside for so long that it's normal to me now. During the past year everything I said to him that in any way was a suggestion about something he should do or any show of dissatisfaction on my part was a huge LB for him. I was bossy and never happy. So, I stopped saying much at all about anything important.

The confrontation does have to be done soon. I realize that. I have a very loose plan for how to confront him, but it changes all the time. I just don't know the best way to do it. My lawyer (the last one I saw who I will hire if I need to) said that the less info I give him the better I will be. So, I don't have to tell him I have all I have.

I do know he does have this new job - I've seen the email with the offer letter and other correspondence from his new boss. He doesn't know I've seen it - it's in his email that he forgot I have the password for and doesn't know I've been checking it.

At this point, if D ends up the way I go his spotty work history this past year will help me.

I do believe that if I tell him I'm willing to work things out in our M, he will decline. I don't believe he will be willing to be transparent and do the things that will be required for this M to be recovered. Obviously, I won't know until I confront him, though.

My counselor yesterday walked me through how I can use my anger to my advantage for motivation and guts. He asked me what will happen next if WH decides he wants to stay in the M. I said that I'd have a list of requirements that WH will have to meet. My C said that this will be exhausting for me and that it will set my WH up to fail. He said we'd need to work out another way rather than having me be the "border patrol." We didn't get into other options for this yet, but I'm interested in hearing points of view on this from those of you who have experience here. It may not really matter because he most likely will be happy to be gone, but if he does decide to work on it how do I handle that part.

Also - exposure. There's not really anyone who has much influence over him. Do I still expose to his family even if he probably won't listen to them and even if they will likely take his side?

I will definitely expose OW#1 and OW#2 to each other. That will be easy to do.

But, if it just works out that D is my best option (or he decides that's what he wants) do I still expose? Does it just turn into revenge at that point?

KLD, I agree with the others, it is time to move forward and confront him. Putting this off only leaves your life in a state of limbo. The longer you wait, the farther you are from any hope of a solution. AS it is right now, YOU are leading a secret second life the same as him. You have 10X more information than the average BS requires to confront his/her spouse.

Launch the nuke, KLD, there is no reason to put this off any longer. We will be here to help you.

Don't do things out of revenge, do them because they are RIGHT. It is the RIGHT THING to do to tell the truth about your H to the other women. It helps NO ONE, especially your wayward husband, to help him hide his secrets from his others.

KLD, launch the nuke!

Yes, still expose him to family. It is the only way that he will ever come to realize what he's done, because, whether they influence him or not, they will now forever be on the lookout for the poor behavior from him and will call him on it the next time he does it. Consider it your last gift to him - his last possibility for learning from his mistakes(unless, of course, he decides to stay, in which case your last gift will be forgiving him).

I agree with not waiting. You waiting so that he can do good at his new job is admirable, but it's enabling and it's detrimental to YOU; and at this point, you have to start thinking of yourself first. If he messes up at this new job, well tough; he should have controlled himself.

Like we said, stay mad!

KLD, you know how awful we all feel for you. I can't stop thinking this is one cold-hearted fish. And every time he tries to be romantic, I'm right there with you -- disgusted.

But one thing your story has done for us -- it shows us the danger of privacy. It is apparent the two of you handle money from separate accounts, handle cell phones separately, don't have good access to where the other one has been on the computer, don't have shared passwords for accounts, etc., etc. The stunner for me was when you were not given a key to his vehicle. Regardless of whether or not you are driving it, a spouse needs a key.

I'm lucky that my husband and I have been very open about accounts and passwords, etc., but we have one struggle ahead of us. Joint bank accounts. I've been on my own since 18. Had a joint account once; it was a disaster. But I'm married now, and no matter how much it scares me, we need to start moving in the direction of making how we spend our money available to each other. We are fairly open now, but there have been hidden expenditures. (In my case, I hide when I pay late fees so I won't get in trouble.) These hidden expenditures could leave an opening for either one of us to have a secret life.

Thank you for giving us an example of how 'privacy' can harm us, leave us vulnerable to affairs. How important it is for us to move forward on transparency, even if we are certain our spouse will balk, even if we believe we have a right to privacy. Marriage and 'privacy' just don't mix.

One thing, KLD, when you said he would not be willing to be transparent in order to recover, I believe you are right. But if he wants the marriage, I believe that he will change his mind. For one thing, you will be at high risk for a revenge-affair for a very long time after this. You could point out the benefit of transparency; how it works both ways. You could rightly point out that the ONLY way you could even BEGIN to think about trusting him was if he was completely transparent, and that you WILL be checking records for a very long time.

I don't think you realize yet that you do hold all the cards. He stayed with you for a reason. He fundamentally wants to be with YOU no matter what he said. You are his wife. You are his homebase. Respond from a place of STRENGTH and CONFIDENCE. Realize and focus on the fact that he is LUCKY to have you. Look at yourself. It is so apparent that you have a LOT to offer a man!

Now if he does leave and go with Ow, then she had his heart all along. That relationship would be doomed! They will be so miserable, not trusting each other. And you could go on to a beautiful life with a brilliant man who truly appreciates you!

Either way, YOU WIN.

(((Big hugs.)))

KLD,
I fear that I am going to say somethings here that may sound...well...mean. Please believe that is not my intention at all. My heart is breaking for you and I do not wnat to be hurtful in ANY way.

I think you might consider getting rid of your C and finding a new one. This one seems to be counseling FOR divorce. Divorce is ABSOLUTELY your choice here if you want it, BUT when a C starts saying things like, "My C said that this will be exhausting for me and that it will set my WH up to fail. He said we'd need to work out another way rather than having me be the "border patrol", then he CLEARLY does not understand MB principles.

As the majority of posters on here point out, in the beginnings of recovery, the BS almost always carries the weight of recovering. The WS is often in the process of withdrawal and just can't figure out HOW to do it even if they WANT to. You are indeed going to be "border patrol" for a while, maybe a long while. You are indeed going to have to set up requirements, a high bar, that your husband is going to have to adhere to.

When I read that you are setting your husband up to "fail" the top of my head almost came off. YOUR HUSBAND HAS ALREADY FAILED AND YOU ARE TRYING TO FIND A WAY FOR HIM TO NOW BE SUCCESSFUL!!!!!!! This is the problem with most counselors today and WHY conventional MC does NOT work. They are all about the individual and the individual's "rights' and acceptance that "That is just the way he\she is. You can't expect more." Balogna!@!!!!!

As marriage partners we are in MANY ways responsible for and accountable TO each other. We can't make anyone change, but we CAN give them opportunity, we CAN help point them in the right direction and we CAN require that they STOP treating us badly. Is it EXHAUSTING??? Yes, especially at the beginning!! But not more exhausting than dealing with an A! And is it rewarding if it saves our marriages and we recover what we believe was once lost? Immeasurably so. I am begging you not to listen to this bit ofadvice from your C.

Stop looking for the exact right way to confront. Just do it. YOu have enough info to do it. It will be horrible. He will probably lie and say terrible things to you. Don't worry about being calm. We are all telling you the same thing. Be RIGHTEOUSLY angry!! He will be even angrier. DO IT ANYWAY!! As other posters say here also. Your marriage can survive his anger, but not his As. Maybe he won't want to work on the M, but he is certainly NOT working on it NOW. But at least he will know that his lying second life is at an end. Remind yourself of THAT. At the VERY LEAST, he will no longer have the titillating, sordid excitement of the secret second life. Take that away from him. It is not only your right, it is your obligation.

Take heart that you are not alone even though this feels lonely. We all know what you are going through and will continue to help and support you in our meager way.

And lastly, a scripture that has helped more times than I know,
"Have I not commanded you be strong and courageous. Do NOT be terrified, do NOT be discouraged for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you may go" Joshua 1:9

Praying
WH2LE

KDL,

Would it be more helpful to you if you had a friend w/ you when you confront him?

Maybe you could do that.

Also, you don't have to reveal the proof you have, just state the simple fact that you KNOW he's cheating on you. He will probably deny it, but it doesn't matter. YOU know the truth, and you are telling him you know it. Don't argue w/ him about whether it's true or not. There is no need to.

Mel is right, this has gone on long enough. Stop keeping his secrets for him. Tell him what you know and then tell him what you need him to do for you to recover the M.

If he is unwilling to come clean w/ you or agree w/ what you want, then it is time for Plan B.

You can do this.

~ Marsh

Valentine - I agree that I've allowed things to remain so separate in this M that it has bred the perfect environment for secrecy. I've learned a valuable lesson myself and I will not make the same mistake again - in the M I currently have if it survives or another if I end up meeting someone later.

I just talked to WH and he does have to go out of town this week after all. He is supposed to go to visit a plant north of us on Thursday and Friday. (OW lives south, thank goodness so no opportunity to stop by there). I was suspicious that a trip was truly in the works that it was a lie so he could go back to see his GF, but looked in his email and all the details from his new boss and the plant manager from the plant he is supposed to see was all there.

I have set a deadline for confronting him - I will do this by Sunday afternoon. I think the idea of having a third party there is a good one, but I think that would make him even more uncomfortable than he's going to be. I'm not afraid for my safety at all, so I will do this alone. I'm going to record the conversation.

WH2LE - thanks for the scripture. It made me feel stronger just reading it. I'm going to remember it often over the next days, weeks, and months. You make good points about the comments from my IC. I wondered about some of what he was saying, too, and I understand what you're saying. I'm so tired of carrying the torch, but if my M is going to make it I'm going to have to continue to take charge.

Melody Lane - you are right - along with all the others. I'll be planning my opener and the main points I want to make over the next few days.

KLD,
Oddly, you will feel a "little better" after you have confronted him. As Melody pointed out, YOU have a secret life right now too. When your secret is out, some of the burden will be lifted. And all the advice about keeping a lot of info to yourself is good. You will knowwhat to say and what not to. Whatever lies he may tell you, YOU know the truth.

Praying,
WH2LE

KLD,
It occurs to me that while we are all telling you to be mad and confront that it might make it look as though we think this will be "easy", especially if you stay mad. We all know better.

Just so you know that we KNOW, I will tell you how it was when I confronted my husband.

I woke up after 1 hour of sleep and was wide awake. I decided to look at my H's cell phone and found a text message to the OW that left no doubt in my mind any longer. I was in shock knowing that months of suspicions were correct and that my beloved had another woman in his life.

I went to the computer and after a few false starts, found Intellius and confirmed that the OWs number did NOT belong to the person my husband had told me it did several weeks earlier.

I went back to the bedroom, sat on the bed and woke him up, in the dark. I asked who the number belonged to and he lied, telling me the same name he had before.

I told him he was lying and asked again.

He asked me why and I told him he was lying and I wanted to know who it was. I did NOT tell him the name I had(it turned out to be the OWs son). Then I told him I had read the text message.

I was angry and sarcastic. I appeared to be only angry, but inside I was dying.

I felt as though I might actually stop breathing. But I kept on.

Eventually he admitted that it was a woman but that she was "just a friend". I just kept telling him that he was lying. He finally said that it was just emotional and fun and that he did not sleep with her. More lies.

And it just kept up like that, back and forth. with me getting louder and angrier and NOT letting him get away with the lying.

He was cold and mean and angry and hard.

I asked him if it was going to stop and he said no. It was all I could do to keep from hitting him. I kept thinking that we were leaving on a long-planned vacation in a week and what was I going to do now?

But to his eyes I was just ANGRY. I screamed at him and told him it was over. He said "Fine, it's over" and rolled over to go back to sleep. And he did go back to sleep!!!!

I said that I had to get away from him and that I was going to go drive. And I did. And he let me go in the state that I was in. At THAT moment I could not have believed that we would still be together 8 months later. It was the single worst moment of my life.

And I had to stay hard and angry to get the rest of the truth out of him. When I softened up, he took to lying or omitting again. It was HARD!!!

I tell you this not to get your sympathy but only so that you know we ALL understand because we have ALL(unfortunately) experienced it.

Do not try to guess his reaction. It will be what it will be.

We are all rooting for you.

Praying still.
WH2LE
P.S. Sorry my posts are so long. I never know when to shut up.

WH2LE - it helped so much to hear how your confrontation went with your H. I know you're right that I just have to do it and I shouldn't expect a certain reaction from him. I know I can't plan for every possible scenario.

I actually had an opportunity to tell him I knew last night but decided it was best to wait until the weekend when we'd have time. Also, he was leaving at 5AM for a trip for his new job and I know that he wouldn't have been receptive at all with timing like that. It wasn't so much that I was trying to be kind, I just know when he will be willing to talk and when he won't.

So, Saturday or Sunday is the day - depending on when the best time comes up. I'm determined because I must get this monkey off my back.

Sorry to warn about this but one more bit of research - check in the OW's counties to see if there are marriage licenses on file... This reeks of bigamy.

When I confronted my wife, I had cellphone records and some files and pictures (all deleted, BTW) from our computer. What I really had were paths and names of those things. She had deleted the files themselves and some were from CDs or her thumb drive and were therefor never actually on our hard drive. Before confronting her, I put it all together on a legal pad and built a sort of time line for the last couple of months. By the time I confronted her (since she was visiting her step mother who happened to live right next door to OM) I had even figured out what a couple of the pictures were and had copies of them printed out as well.

So I laid out this elaborate treatise around her calling him on the way home from work, then emailing him a picture an hour later and then calling him to be sure he got it at 10:30. I mapped out stories and poems she had written and some she had received from him and dumped it all out at once...What I really had was traces of things that happened. I really had no idea how any of it went down for sure. So I bluffed and she folded...

But I didn't have to prove to her that she was having an affair, because she already knew that. All I had to prove was that I knew she was having one.

Did she deny it? Well of course she did. They all do. Two days later she asked for a divorce. I told her we had plenty of time to get divorced but only a short time to make this work. She told me a couple days later she couldn't give him up. Next I heard that this had nothing to do with him. And eventually I heard that if I had been different she wouldn't have had to do this. In between was a lot of stuff about not being happy, never being happy, getting married too young and for the wrong reason and wanting to leave for years. I can pretty much recite the checklist they give.

That was May of 06 and we're currently trying to work out the details of purchasing a riding stable together...But just so you know, I'm still a bit skittish about it...(Oh look. I used a horse term. She'd be so proud. Naw, she wouldn't even notice.)

AGREE.

PI did check for marriage licenses and found nothing for OW. Also checked WH and found W#1 and me.