Copied my last post from the "Just Found Out" Board - thought it may be better to start posting here since there's more traffic.

Also, here's my original thread from the EN board if you care to read it:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3298834

I'm doing the investigation into my H's cellphone behavior and I'm absolutely sick to my stomach. So far, I've recreated the last bill and put it into a quick summary so I have good info to present him with. 750 text messages from him to her. 784 text messages from her to him. 35 phone calls to her and only 3 to him. All in a 31 day period. I also was able to figure out that he's most likely seen her. He lied to me about when a job he was working on started and he stopped in her town on the way there. I can tell by the roaming charges on his phone and by the fact that on the day he would have been there they had no phone or text contact.

I'm absolutely sick. I know this is torture, but I think I need to continue with this so I actually can grasp the depth of deception.

I have a counseling session with Jennifer tomorrow night. I hope I can feel better after I talk to her. I'm just not sure I want this to work out now, though, after seeing these details. I do believe that people should do everything possible to save their Ms, but after all the support I've given him through his depression and joblessness this may be too much to bear. If it was "only" an affair or "only" some lies maybe I'd be able to get past it. After suffering through a devastating year along side him, I can't believe he'd do something like this to me.

Based on the lengths he's gone to to betray our M, I made an appointment with a lawyer for tomorrow. I have no intentions of filing for D at this time, but I do want to know what options I have and what leverage I may be able to use.

KLD,

Wow, the phone bill investigation...does that bring back memories. Highlighting the different phone #s with different colored highlighting pens, (OM's cell, home, and work phone) counting the calls to each and noting the length of the calls.

And the time there were no calls, thinking (knowing) they were together. Then the first call to be made after the phone silence was checking her messages.

One day she called him every couple minutes for like half the day, must have been 50 calls. They must have had a little tiff.

It is torture, but maybe a little therapeutic too. It all comes down to the BS's thirst for knowledge. We must dig out all the facts.

""I can't believe he'd do something like this to me.""

For what it is worth, he is not really doing this to you. He is not purposefully doing this to cause you pain. He is a self centered man selfishly seeking his self-gratification not considering the consequences or maybe considering, but not enough to stop.

I did not go to your previous post, so I do not know if he knows you know.

A good rule to follow is do nothing drastic within the first month after d day. Wait until the dust settles and things become a little bit clearer and calmer.

Stay strong and take care of yourself.

kirk

He doesn't know I know. He knows I know there has been previous contact, but he thinks I believe it's stopped. I'm having a session with Jennifer tomorrow night and hopefully she can help me develop a plan to confront him with my details.

I also found a call to an 800 number sex line. This is a man I'd never ever thought would do something like this at all.

I'm trying very hard to act like normal. It's very difficult, but so far I'm doing okay.

Thanks for the insight - it does help to realize he probably doesn't mean to hurt me. I just don't understand how he can think this won't affect our M, though.

I believe in the spying 101 thread I discussed my DDay back in 2005 when I confronted my wife with the tidbits of information I did have and included the false statement that I was able to obtain a copy of all her and OM's text messages from Verizon wireless.

I did this to overcome the wall of denial I was faced with. Once IT was down the truth came pouring out of her and she told me many details I was not aware of (but she thought I was).

Work for me.

Key is don't give them an opportunity to verify that it's not the truth. This was saved for a face to face discussion with time.

Your mileage may vary.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I also used a hidden digital voice recorder to preserve the conversation in case it was latter denied...in court or, if we had divorced, forever. Never underestimate the ability of waywards to rewrite history to their liking even 10 years down the road to your children when they are adults. Document it.

KLD,
I skimmed through your posts on EN board. I can't tell when he had contact in the past with this OW. How long ago did he have contact with her? How does he know her? Have you looked at prior months of cell phone records? I know that with verizon, only a few months are available for viewing on-line.

I guess what I am asking is: How long has he known this OW and how long, potentially, has the A been going on? I understand that there is a difference between long term affairs and shorter term affairs regarding a variety of issues in attempting to obtain no contact and in recovery.

I'm so terribly sorry.

It sounds as though you are making some logical and very wise choices.

Particularly these:

I'm having a session with Jennifer tomorrow night and hopefully she can help me develop a plan to confront him with my details.
I have no intentions of filing for D at this time, but I do want to know what options I have and what leverage I may be able to use.
I know this is torture, but I think I need to continue with this so I actually can grasp the depth of deception.

On the last item, I agree that is a wise choice. Right now you are looking for facts. Once you confront him, most likely the rationalizations and justifications will ensue and it's all too easy to believe some of them in an emotional state because denial can be a convenient anaestethic.



I would guess that he isn't viewing it from this perspective so much as he is from the angle that he won't get caught. Denial can work both ways.

Hey KLD, I'm right there with you... you may have seen my posts about my wife in here. The only difference is she doesn't deny anything.

But what you describe sums me up pretty good. I'm a mess. I can't sleep - I have no apetite... I, too, don't understand how she could do this to me/us. I feel like yesterday's news.

So if you need to vent, I'm all ears, cause I completely understand what you're going through.

KLD,

I went back and also skimmed through your thread.

Your WH is a piece of work. It is almost a form of GASLIGHTING that he has going, only instead of telling you you are crazy for thinking he is having an A, he is misdirecting you TO BECOME crazy, with his hesitating, head hanging and manipulating, WHILE HAVING THE A.

While reading your thread, knowing the outcome, of course, in advance, I was just shaking my head at the way he manipulated you. So much energy waisted!!

I detect a perverse pleasure he gets by making you squirm. So I am re-thinking the "not doing this to cause you pain" remark I made earlier.

What did the PI uncover?

Also a voice activated recorder in his car is helpful to get the gist of the conversations. Also a GPS gizmo to track his movements.

So was he even AT the airport?

When you DO let him know you know, let him have it with BOTH barrels. (but not an actual fire arm of course!)

Stay strong and stay on that high road.

kirk

Mr Wondering - I will use the recorder when I confront. Thanks for the idea. I have no idea if he will admit or not when faced with facts. I won't be surprised if he is so livid that he never speaks to me again.

I have plenty of facts at this point. Just need to get it organized and get myself emotionally ready.

Lake53 -

I skimmed through your posts on EN board. I can't tell when he had contact in the past with this OW. How long ago did he have contact with her? He has known her for 13 years. They were friends before we married and before he knew me. I first found out about secret contact with her almost 3 years ago by accidentally finding it on his cell phone call list. He had lied about who he was talking to. He said he didn't want to get me suspicious because we hadn't been getting along and they were just friends. I let it drop. Soon I found a few calls to her on his cell phone bill. I confronted again and he said he would not contact her any more.

How does he know her? He used to work in an industry where everyone knows everyone. She worked for another industry company and eventually came to work where he did.

Have you looked at prior months of cell phone records? I currently have the prior 7 months downloaded on my work computer. In the next day or so I'll get the 6-7 months prior to that that is available.

I guess what I am asking is: How long has he known this OW and how long, potentially, has the A been going on? I think the A has been going on for about 4-5 months. I think there may have been intermittent EA/possible PA before that.

Because of the length of time they've known each other, I think this one may be a tough nut to crack. I also have talked to her twice - each time was very unpleasant. She is a real jerk.

Frozen - thanks for the words of support. It helps to hear that I'm approaching from a logical position. I'm seeing a lawyer tomorrow to help make sure I don't make any mistakes in how I confront him that would jeopardize my position if it gets legal.

JCricket - I feel for you in your situation. I really hope it all works out for you and your WW. I'm sure your session with Steve will give you some good direction.

Krusht - I appreciate it that you went back and read my history. I guess I haven't seen it the same way you did - even looking back now I don't see it that way. You may be dead on about his manipulation tactics, though. Honestly, he's not that kind of person, but maybe in this situation that trait has come out.

He is self centered - I knew that from the start - though it's not been a problem until recently because he has always shown me love. Even now, he's very attentive, fun, and loving to me when he's not in a depressed state. When I sense the depression coming on (he will become quiet and withdrawn) I will just be patient and it will pass. Then there are the times when he tells me he knows he can't make me happy and wants to separate. I have always told him I don't want to do that, but usually tell him he should make up his mind and let me know what he wants to do. He has always decided to stay.

I'm torn about how I really want this to end. There's part of me that just wants to be done with him and leave him as a sniveling heap on the ground. The other part wants to make sure I don't screw things up in the confrontation and aftermath so the door remains open for reconciliation.

I know it may not seem like it from what I've written, but he is a good guy. Right now he's a lying cheater, but still a basically good guy. I just hope the good guy will come back.

Oh, I forgot to include - the PI found that he was exactly where he said he would be - at the airport for a one day up and back trip. He had an anxiety attack and couldn't get on the plane, though, so he came home. He called me when he was panicking to see if he could calm down and get on the plane. The PI told me he made one call and was on the phone for 25 minutes. That call was to me.

He is supposed to be on another trip tomorrow. The PI will follow him again to see what happens this time. This is supposedly a 3 day trip.

And I'm thinking back on the last few weeks and some of his behavior. He seems to be talking about our future alot and things he wants us to do to the house. Also talked about getting a motorcycle for us to ride on weekends (always had one when he lived in England and has wanted to get one since I've known him just never has).

Is there significance in this, or is it just a smokescreen?

There is also a third option - initially many wayward spouses think they'll enjoy having 2 lives. The WS who eventually get more emotionally involved with the OP, often start judging and treating the unknowing BS harshly.

The 2 lives scenario actually makes sense in his case. He has felt the need to get away several times over tha past year because his depression would get deeper and he would feel pressure from real life. This is how he described it. It kind of makes sense that the OW gives him a second life that doesn't have any responibilities, yet in this case it's someone he knows so there's a comfort level there. Also, she lives 4 hours away - not much chance of us running into her or having to juggle too much to enjoy it.

Just found H's itinerary for the trip he's taking today. He left it for me which he rarely does. The itinerary is just as he said. I may have paid the PI to follow him to do exactly as he told me he was doing. I don't want to find that he's seeing her when he's supposed to be on a work trip, but I wish I wasn't having to fork out all this money to try to catch him so I'll have more than phone record proof.

Does anyone know how to find out where the OP works? I've done 2 background checks and neither had that info. If I knew where she works I could check to see if she's there this week while he's traveling. My PI said it's very difficult to get that kind of info these days.

I found both OW's name and where she worked by Googling her cellphone number which I spotted on a phone record. A single error by WS who had been able to keep all contact off any records for three years. There was even a photo of her ugly fat face. Presume you have tried Googling name/number in various possible formats?

Another possibility is to look carefully at the phone records to see if you can spot a call to or from a number that might be her work number. Calling possibilities will soon get you to the right place. Even the most careful WS usually makes a single error somewhere.

Key logger software is awesome too, I installed Spector Pro which gives me information on every single keystroke he makes on the computer.

I've googled her cell phone number, home number, and various name combinations and got nothing. So far I haven't found any other numbers that could be her work number, but I'm not done going through all the cell phone records. Geez - what a job that is!!! So much communication between them.

I'd love to be able to find out what she looks like. I picture her being a certain way and I'd be really disappointed if she's better looking than me. It's probably better if I don't know.

I can't put a keylogger on his laptop. I never have access to it. I'm out of luck there.

Just talked to Jennifer. It helped me get grounded. She helped me developed a plan for confronting him. I'm going to first write a letter inviting him to participate in a plan to recover. The letter will not say that I know. It will outline the plan which includes ENs met exclusively by each other.

If he rejects this option, then I will tell him that I know and that our options are 1) immediate NC and work on the M when that is accomplished or 2) Plan B.

I am very nervous about this, but I know I can't go on the way things are.

KLD, I just found this thread by accident. I had no idea, I'm so sorry.

I kind of like the 2 lives theory. When my mom was about 50, her long lost love showed up on her doorstep, the guy she didn't marry (and who most likely is my brother's real father, but I digress). He's a doctor, and he said he makes a lot of trips through here, and would love to be able to stop by and see her when he's in town. She was like a little schoolgirl, started wearing dresses (she has really bad psoriasis, so always wears pants) and makeup. Well, of course, about 6 months in, she finds out he's really married; he knew she'd be an easy lay, just like 30 years earlier.

I just tell you this to suggest it may be many men's (or women's, I guess) fantasy, to have that double life.

Anyway, I wish you the best. You seem like a really strong person, and I know you'll pull through, but I wish I could take away the pain for you.

Cat, I so appreciate your note. It means so much that someone from my original thread thought enough of me to post some encouragement.

The story about your mom makes sense. I have to say that a double life sounds good to me right now!!! LOL. I hope that doesn't get the hackles up of other BSs - I don't mean for one second that I'd actually seek out another life.

I'm not quite ready to write my letter yet. I need to get into a better frame of mind to do it. I'm very nervous about giving him the letter because based on past experience with him he will not respond to it. I know that's the same as rejection. If my offer is rejected, I have to confront and I'm not ready for that right now, either.

I fully expect him to reject the offer. Communication about important things - especially difficult subjects - doesn't come easy to him. I believe this could make him decide to just walk away rather than deal with it even if there could be a great outcome if he would engage. He is a major avoider and this shows in many areas of his life.

I know he is carrying on his other activities and that is deceitful and wrong. It hurts me very much that he's doing these things, but he is starting to respond to my changes from the Plan A I was already doing. I haven't put on the perfect Plan A, but there have been significant changes in me and he has commented on them. I hate like the devil to rock the boat even though it most definitely needs rocking. My logical side knows what needs to be done but my sentimental side wants to wait until "just the right time."

And further, I think if I read this post from someone else, I'd want to tell them they have to get their priorities straight. I can't seem to take my own advice. Is this normal? Any tips for pushing myself forward without rushing this and making mistakes?

In my preparation to write my letter, I started thinking that maybe I should lightly address that he has shown his desire to make our M better by making plans for our future, etc. and that makes me want to invite him to take significant steps with me toward making it better. I know I'd have to wordsmith that properly.

At this stage of the plan, I'm not telling him that I know about his A. That will come later either because he rejects my offer or when we begin working on the M and the info comes out.

Has anyone else approached your situation in a similar way? What suggestions would you give me? I'm so out of my element here and I could really use some direction. I have the plan that Jennifer and I developed which I'm comfortable with, but there's so much more to this stuff than having a plan!!!

KLD - I am new to your thread so this may not be any help at this point but if you are able to download the phone records in Excel format (or a format readable by Excel, like CSV or TXT) you could save yourself a lot of time and effort. Excel will allow you to quickly sort/highlight calls on specific dates to/from specific numbers, etc.

TIM

TIM, I have downloaded the last 16 months of phone records into Excel. I'm going through each month one by one to get the magnitude of the contact. I doubt that I'll ever use it, but going through that exercise has opened my eyes and made me see how deep this really is. It hurts alot more, but I may need that to make me take action.

KLD - Apologies for the late arrival to your thread. My d-day was last month so I am far from an expert (my thread is "this sucks" on "just found out") but I can tell you that the advice that I received from the posters on this site made all the difference in my ability to move forward with the very difficult steps that needed to be taken to try to save my marriage and my family.

That said, I "knew" for years that something was very wrong in my M and I tried repeatedly to Plan A (long before I knew about MB) but it was not until I decided to act on my suspicions, discover the truth, and confront my W that anything changed. My approach at the end was to simultaneously end the A and insist on a commitment to work on our M. I am confident that the A is over (though mindful of withdrawal and the possibility of relapse) and my W is now - 5 weeks post-d-day - beginning to demonstrate a willingness to discuss our issues, read books on recovery, etc.

So my advice is end the A as soon as you have the proof that is needed to successfully confront your H. Don't hesitate in the interest of trying to make it less painful for him. Do what you know is right for you and your M.

Good luck.

Hi KLD
This might be a useful tool for you http://www.spoofcard.com to find out where OW works.

For instance, you could text WS spoofing it to be from OW asking him to call her at work urgently. Then check the record to see what number he called. Test it first to see if it works. I have used it but only for voice.

Or get someone to call OW's cellphone during the day and say you csn't hear, it is a bad connection, can she give you a landline to call instead. Spoof a number that she is likely to want to take like the electric company.

TIM, thanks for sharing your story. I've read some of your thread and I'm so happy for you that you've made some progress.

I've been reading other threads for months now and while that helps me learn other things to try, it's discouraging at the same time. When I compare what others say about their WS, the ones who have traits like my WH are the ones who aren't interested in getting into recovery. The Ms with a WS who doesn't communicate easily and won't read books and doesn't usually admit fault are the ones that don't make it. I'm very worried about our ability to recover because of these issues with my WH.

I also realize that I can only control my actions and he is responsible for his. But what that ultimately means is that he controls whether our M survives or not. I can Plan A in a flawless manner, but if he refuses to communicate, won't learn how to make our M work, and won't own up to his portion of the blame we will D. I know there are no guarantees, but this makes it much harder for me to have hope. I need hope. We all need hope.

LTA - I can't view the website from work, so I'll look at it this weekend and see if I can try one of the options you gave me. Thanks for the link. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row for exposure.

I'm still trying to do some forensics on my Hs behavior to make sure I have as much info as I need. I'm in over my head on some of it and I don't know how to figure out what some of the data I have gathered really means.

Can someone please give me ideas on why mail from a credit card bank would come to my house addressed to OW? A letter offering a limit increase for an existing account came just before Christmas. Like an idiot, I asked H if he knew why and he said he had no idea. He asked me where the letter was and I told him I threw it away. I let it drop. The day after Christmas 2 letters - 1 from the original bank and 1 from a different bank - arrived stating that the address on the account had been changed. I didn't mention this to H. I still have all 3 letters.

I've checked his bank account to see if these banks are set up under his bill pay and they're not. I also checked his credit to see if there is a record on his report of either of these banks and nothing is there so he isn't set up in a joint account with her.

I have no idea why her credit card accounts would have our address listed as hers. What else can I do to find out what's going on with this?

It could me OW is married and got herself a credit card and didn't want the statements coming to her home. Who knows?

What do you know about OW? If she is married exposing to her H would be very beneficial.

OW is divorced. She has a child and I'm thinking about exposing to her XH since they have a child. Don't know if it will matter, but worth a try. They have been D about 3-4 years.

I'm trying to find out where she works. They text all day long and I'm thinking that maybe her employer will want to know that she uses their time to play with her friends.

The first thing that I thought of was that he was offering to pay her bill.

That's what I've thought, too, Cat. If that's the case I'm going to be so very angry. There was a time about 5 years ago when he told me that she had asked another guy they worked with for money and he wouldn't give it to her. I told H then that I didn't want him giving a dime to anyone without he and I being on the same page about it. He assured me that would never happen. I've mentioned to him at least 5 times over the past 2 years that I don't want him giving her any money and he always says he hasn't and he won't.

In putting a timeline together so I can have indisputable facts for the confrontation, I've gone back and read my original thread. It's helped that I noted when WH wanted separation and when he decided to leave. Every single time he decided to leave his usual daily communication with OW stopped. They were together then for sure. It is so very painful to read what I wrote then knowing that I trusted him and was worried sick about him and he was screwing OW.

I've also uncovered another probable EA. I haven't been able to confirm that the number belongs to a woman, but I'll eat my hat if he's been sending this many texts to another man. The phone is listed from where he lived before I met him. He mentioned during the summer that he had called his former employer to ask about a reference and he had a chance to talk to a woman who used to work there. Looks like they've been talking quite alot since then. I know he hasn't seen her - she lives 1200 miles away and all his unaccounted for time has now been accounted for with OW1. Wonder if OW1 knows that he's been cheating on her with OW2?

I've been remarkably calm since I found his phone records one week ago today. Very upset, but able to keep my emotions in control.

I'm having a much more difficult time today keeping myself in control. I'm at work and I can't concentrate on anything I need to be doing. I'm worried about a project that I need to complete and I can't even see the plan when I open it up. I can't focus on it at all.

When do you know it's time to get some help with ADs? I feel like I'm on the brink of falling apart but not quite there yet.

KLD - I know what you are going through (I guess unfortunately most of us here do) and it is difficult. Hang in there. In my case, though I had been suspicious for some time and I knew that things in my M were not right, only 2 days elapsed between my decision to act on my suspicions and my confronting W and OM. And those 2 days were terrible.

That is, in part, why I recommend confronting your H as soon as you have sufficient proof. It is very important that you not act too soon (as many other posters here have cautioned) but, on the other hand, there is no benefit to prolonging the agony once proof has been obtained.

As far as productivity at work, prepare yourself for more of the same for some time to come. I am a co-owner of a business and am struggling big-time to keep up since d-day. However, confirming there was an A (thus confirming that I was not the unduly suspicious, controlling, neurotic person my W told me I was) and then ending the A has been a huge relief. Under no circumstances would I want to go back to the state my M was in pre-d-day. No amount of improved productivity would make me willing to do that. Replacing lost income is much easier than losing my W and family.

Re the AD question, I have no experience with them so can't help there. Sorry.

TIM

TIM - I think I'm in for a bit of a wait on confrontation. I anticipate that my WH is going to get extremely angry when I present him with the facts I have. Because of that, I want my case to be air tight without assumptions. I can't give him any wiggle room, so I've got to do all the work to make sure I have enough to ensure he can't reasonably lie his way out.

Thanks for the heads up to expect more of the same with my job. I think I'm going to try to make an appt to speak to my doctor about possibly getting on ADs.

KLD,

I guess if you are considering the ADs then it is time to get them. Once you get them, it will take a week to 10 days for them to kick in. So do that now!

As far as getting all the proof to make it air tight, you don't have to prove that he is having the A. He KNOWS he is having the A. Even if it is not a PA it is totally an EA because of the phone records you have already.

With the PI following him, I would think any other proof would be quick in coming.

""I anticipate that my WH is going to get extremely angry when I present him with the facts I have.""

Why would he get angry? Because you snooped? Down deep in his heart of hearts he must have known that you would find out.

If it was me cheating on my wife, I think I would feel many more emotions before anger, if at all.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SHOULD BE ANGRY!!!!

IMHO

kirk

I know you're right, Kirk. I know he is feeling guilty - I see it in many ways. Didn't know what it was until a week ago.

The PI probably may not be able to catch him with her any time soon. She lives about 4 hours away. He goes to work every day so he doesn't have much of a chance to see her. I had the PI follow him 2 days this week because he was going out of town. I wasn't sure he was really going on a business trip. He did go on the business trip, so I got nothing out of my PI dollars. I'm obviously glad he didn't see her, though.

I most likely will have to confront him before PI gets a chance to find anything out.

I made an appt with a doctor to see if he thinks meds would be right for me. I can't get anything sooner than next week, but that's better than mid-February. I think I'm feeling more anxiety right now than anything else. I've been getting sick to my stomach and just feeling very jittery. I hate feeling like this.

I haven't confronted him yet because I don't feel I can do it. I'm just not up to it. I know I have enough info to present to him, but I just can't get the energy, nerve, guts, whatever to do it.

This is not the kind of person I am. I'm angry that this has affected how I feel and how I operate.

The plan that Jennifer and I worked out is to write him a letter asking him to participate in MB process with me. I really don't expect him to agree to it because he hasn't agreed to do much of anything relating to our M for quite some time. I can't even get motivated to write the letter.

When I think about why he is still in the M, I wonder why. We don't have kids, so he's not staying for them. He has tried to leave at least 6 times in the past year and has always decided not to go. He's allowing me to meet a few of his ENs and he seems basically happy at home most of the time. He does drift off into his own thoughts sometimes and he seems withdrawn from time to time, but most of the time we talk and do things together. Maybe it's just easier to stay than to go.

(((KLD))) Good for you for making an appointment to see the doctor. Dr. Harley recommends short term ADs for BSs, in one of the articles. It'm more than most of us could go through wihtout help.

I am so happy to hear that you're working with Jennifer on this, giving your marriage the best chance possible. Don't worry, you've always had the strength to do what it takes so far. I think you'll be able to put a great letter together, too. Is this a Plan B letter?

Why's he in the marriage, because even through all the fog, he knows that you were the best thing that's ever happened to him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He's put more questioning into it than most, I'm guessing because of how depression takes away from our ability to appreciate what we have, and even through all that, he's glad to have you!

Thanks for your support yet again, EO. I need it so much now. I feel like I'm really sinking sometimes. I know I need to just hang in there but it gets so difficult. I'm in limbo land still - but this time it's my own making because I haven't made the final decision in how I'm going to confront my H.

The letter is actually an invitation letter. One that will outline in general terms the things I want out of our M and the statement of my belief that we can have those things together. It's an invitation to go through MB programs with Jennifer. I truly doubt that he will accept this offer. If that's the case, I will let him know that I'm aware of his infidelity and that I request that he end it. Jennifer was of the opinion that if he accepts the offer to work on our M through MB, the story of his A will come out that way without a confrontation.

There are times when I would prefer to just confront him without the invitation letter, but I do think I need to do that to give him one more chance to step into the M on his own.

Glad that I can be here, KLD.


Is this projection? It's totally understandable. I had never heard of an invitation before, that sounds like a beautiful idea. If he admits it himself, I would think that would make the healing and recovery process easier, right?

I don't understand, though, why to avoid the confrontation. Is it to prevent making withdrawals when he's been on the edge? Or are you or Jennifer afraid that your H would hurt himself because of the depression? Does he have a history of close calls?

I reread your post, I get you, to give him one more chance to step back into the M on his own. Whew, I was nervous it was the harming himself thing. I had friends in a similar situation, and we were all really nervous when she Plan D'd him, because there was a history of severe breakdowns and psychotic episodes in his family. Fortunately she was right that he could survive it, and he came through okay.

I think my self esteem is so low sometimes that I wonder why he would still be here if he thinks so little of me and our M that he would get involved with someone else. Then I step back and realize that even though I'm responsible for my part of the M, his decisions are his own and likely not to really be about me in this case.

Jennifer agreed that if he could admit the A himself without a confrontation that would be a better situation to be in. I don't really see it happening that way, but I do want to give him the opportunity.

Thank goodness there's no worry about him harming himself. I actually think some of his depression has been related to his A. The guilt and indecision has made everything else much worse. I think it's also part of the reason he won't get in IC and stay there - afraid of having to admit something he doesn't want anyone to know about.

I've slowed the snooping down a bit - it just got to be too much. I haven't had more opportunities to have him followed to get proof positive of a PA. If I didn't know about his daily contact with OW, I'd think he was becoming more commited to me by his actions and attitude at home. He's been fun and more loving than he has been in a year. He was going out alone every night to the coffee shop - a 20 minute deal - and now he's been asking me to go, too. He doesn't go out to the car as often to check his cell phone.

I'd love to think the A is dying down, but I'm sure that's just wishful thinking on my part. I've been doing well at eliminating the LBs and maybe he's noticing that.

Anyway, I had dreams all night long about confronting OW and finding them together and all kinds of terrible drama. I woke up feeling really ill and unsettled because of the dreams. In the early morning hours, he wanted to snuggle up and I had a very hard time feeling comfortable with that after the terrible dreams during the night.

I'm sure these things are normal, but this was the first time I'd had such dreams. I don't even believe that dreams are significant, really, but this did get to me a bit.

Limbo is difficult, but for me right now I think I have to stay here for a little while. I've started my letter and hope to have it ready to send to Jennifer today.

Wow, KLD, it amazes me how much courage it must take to keep doing the next right thing. To keep that great momentum going.

How's your self-care been? What have you been learning about yourself and what you want in this marriage?

Self care is okay - the doctor's appt for possible ADs will be a good thing and hopefully it will help me keep my emotions on an even plane. I'm having some health problems (Crohn's Disease) but I'm in deeper treatment for that than usual so I'll be okay there. I've lost about 20 lbs - some due to the illness and some due to stress. I'm in a size 6-8 now and feel great about that - one good side effect of the stuff going on in my life!!!

I have been on a roller coaster ride about what I want for me and for my M. I do still want the M very much. I love my H deeply and believe it or not, I still have high respect for him. I'm angry at him and very hurt, but I don't regret the decision to marry him. He's a good part of my life even now with all our issues. He may turn into the devil when he finds out I've been "invading his privacy" but we will get through that or we won't. I do know that if this M ends it will be because he chooses that either by active choice to D or by not giving up the A. There is comfort in that for me. I'm very sure that I'm doing the right thing - morally and for myself.

I'm also using the time to dig more deeply into my own behavior and failings in the M. I had begun to make changes 3 years ago and probably didn't keep that momentum up as I should have. I'm looking very hard at myself and I have every intention of owning my part, but not owning the part that belongs to him.

One of the things I'm having trouble with is near hatred of the OW. I wish for bad things to happen to her. I know I should pray for her just like I'm praying for me, my H, and our M but I can't bring myself to do it. I've found out enough about her to know that she is the kind of person I'd never associate with if I knew her in my own daily life. It bothers me that I feel so much venom for her and so much less of that for him. It bothers me that he would get involved with someone like this.

Hi KLD,
It sounds like you are doing fairly well, considering all that has happened. I mean you personally, not your marriage.

I went back and read some of your early threads. I think it may help to revisit some of the things that star*fish said back in Sept on your first thread. I hope you don't mind me commenting.

She encouraged you to live an exciting life and then invite him to join you. (that's what I got from it anyway.)

Sometimes it's difficult to know how to approach a subject. Maybe we can do it like this..........

For the purposes of our discussion, lets pretend that you7r marriage is perfect, and that you are having no problems. Lets also pretend that your H got in an accident and was killed. Please stay with me here, I know this is not pleasant.

If this was to happen, you would grieve, but after a while, I believe you would get over it, and begin to live life again. If you are the person I think you are, you would hold happy memories, and be glad for what you had, but you would get over it, and you would be happy again.

Many people live the grieving stage while their spouse is having an A, and they never come out of it. What we are suggesting, is that you come out of it now, and get back to living a happy, productive life now.

Some will say "well, I don't want to loose him." What they often forget, is that they don't really have anything while their spouse is involved in and A. The question is not will you loose that person, but will you be able to get back to a relationship where both of you gets what you need/want.

It is much easier to get, and keep that good kind of relationship when you are that happy person now, and when he can see that you are. What kind of people do you like to be around? Happy, self confident, self assured people? Or People who don't know who they are, or what they want?

Now, I am not saying you have been failing, but I am suggesting that you make sure you focus. You can only really work on YOU, not on him. You can ENCOURAGE, and you can do things to ATTRACT, but you can't really make him do anything.

With that in mind, focus on the things you can do, not on what you want him to do.

To take this a little further......
I have been married for nearly 31 years. Long enough to know that both parties in a marriage have faults. Of course, any faults you have, are far eclipsed by what he is doing. I don't want you to think I am saying it's your fault he is having an A. Anyway, both have faults. If the problems in the marriage are 99 percent his fault, and 1 percent your fault, all you can do is
1. Leave.
Or
2. Work on your 1 percent.

I am not really trying to assign the percent of fault, as much as I am trying to convey a concept. You are a smart gal, I'm sure you get it.

Now, don't think you should just quit checking on him, and live in your own little world.
What I mean is this:
Do continue to talk, and interact with him.
Do find out what he is doing, so you know how do adjust your plan.

Don't let what he is doing get to you. When we experience the death of a loved one, we adjust, and we can still be happy. Decide how to live your life, and live it, even if he won't join you. Do the things that bring peace to you, and keep doing them.

Don't think you are a failure. All of us have problems in our marriage. At least everyone that I know has had problems. It's part of life.

Don't forget who you are. Look in the mirror. (for real) You really are OK. This is not your fault. Could you have done better? Maybe so, if you had known. The thing is, we can all say that about so many things......... you know what I'm getting at. I believe you have done the best you could with what you knew. We learn, and we change, and hopefully we improve, but all of us make mistakes. Learn, and improve, get better as you go along, and be sure to believe in yourself.

One of the things I'm having trouble with is near hatred of the OW. I wish for bad things to happen to her. I know I should pray for her just like I'm praying for me, my H, and our M but I can't bring myself to do it.

You have things you can work on. God can change all of us. He can help you, and he can help her. Remember that he loves her, and wants her to repent, and be happy. If you can't pray for her, I recommend kneeling down, and praying until you can. It has often worked for me.

May God bless you, and take care of you. I believe he will, if you continue to go to him for help.

SS

Still Seeking - thank you so much for reaching out to me. I think it's a great idea for me to go back and read my earlier post again. I did that about 2 weeks ago, but I think it would be a great help to do it again. I've often thought of Star's post to me and I have done a few things to get me moving in that direction, but not consistently. I've been thinking of the things I need to do to make myself happy with me again.

The scenario of becoming a widow was an excellent reminder of what I need to be doing now. Of course I have issues that must be dealt with now, but that doesn't mean my life must revolve around the fact that my H is having an A. My M may end, but it may not. Either way, I want to be a whole and happy person.

I appreciate that you addressed how I feel about the OW. I know that the horrible feelings I have for her don't hurt her at all - they only hurt me. Though I know God loves her just like he loves me, I don't want to think about that right now. I will pray for myself to be able to pray for her. I do believe that at some point I'll get to forgiveness even for her, but I'm not there yet.

I'm going to read your post again when I'm not sitting next to my H!! I'll be able to concentrate a bit more and soak it in when I'm alone.

Hi KLD...just read your thread...

I like where you're going... I too went back and read my earlier threads the other day (almost 6 months ago) and am amazed at how far I've come, and how much the dust has settled...

The anger at OP has been debilitating for me on many occasions...masking both my own pain and the true target of my anger--WS.

It's ironic, we BSs need to be as "selfish" sometimes as our WSs are...difference is our selfishness is for the purpose of gaining strength for the long and good fight ahead...

Hang in there!

L2F

I re-read SS's post to me and I realize that it really is pretty simple for me. Sure, my circumstances are complicated (as in all A situations), but I can still have a good life. I know that. I sometimes forget it, though, when the pain gets difficult to bear.

I'm sure I'm in for a little bit of a different ride than some because of my approach - not confronting right away and giving him a chance to tell me on his own. I'm not having as hard a time keeping up the front as I thought I would. I don't want it to get too easy, because then I might never move forward if he doesn't tell me about the A, but for now this is working for me. I truly doubt that he will come clean on his own, so I am preparing to eventually confront him.

L2F - Thanks for the encouragement. It helps so much to know that others have been able to come through and be okay. The OW stuff in my head is my biggest stumbling block right now. I want to see her hurt and torn apart like she has done to me. The problem with her is that I don't think she has anything to lose, really. Even if I was the kind of person to try to make trouble for her, I don't think I could. She's pretty much a loser - which I think also bothers me - why would he get involved with someone who has so little to offer when I have so much and have offered it freely?

Just reread my last thread... Calling OW a loser was a pretty big DJ. I definitely need to pray for myself to get rid of these nasty feelings - or at least tame them a bit. Does anyone know why we get angrier at the OP than the WS?

Would it help to think of the fact that she's in an even worse place than you are? She is so desperate/lonely/unloved/screwed up/self-hating that the only way she can approximate happiness is by doing something she most likely loathes, herself. She will never achieve happiness, because she will have this guilt for the rest of her life, what she did to you. You, on the other hand, can walk with your head held high, in all of this, the only person who can do so. A very uplifting feeling indeed, when you think about it.

Thank you, Cat. Once again you've reminded me of what's important. I'd love to call her up and tell her what gutter trash she is, but that wouldn't help anything and probably wouldn't make me feel any better in the long run, either. If she doesn't already know she's gutter trash, she hopefully will realize it one day.

My self esteem needs for me to take the high road. I'm fighting for my M, but I don't have to look like trash along with her in the process.

WHOA NELLIE!!

""She is so desperate/lonely/unloved/screwed up/self-hating that the only way she can approximate happiness is by doing something she most likely loathes, herself. She will never achieve happiness, because she will have this guilt for the rest of her life, what she did to you.""

HA!

In your perfect world, maybe! In reality, not close. There is a good reason why the OP is called pond scum, POS, rat meat, etc, etc.

THEY KNOW THE WS IS MARRIED!! THIS MAKES THEM HAPPY.

There is a reason why the OP is so hated and despised....because they deserve it.

This saintly thinking can hurt you in the long run. This is a war and the OP is the enemy, big time.

IMHO

kirk

Can you expand on this, Kirk? I need to make sure I don't make mistakes. I do realize that the OW is my enemy, but how do I fight her without looking like I should be on Jerry Springer? How can I take the high road and still win the war?

KLD,

How do you fight her?

By plan A'ing your A off.

Confronting your H at some point!!! and exposing to all required to stop the A.

If you are speaking of actually confronting the OW, this usually is not a good idea. The OW could care less.

The reason for my previous post was the heart wrenching description of the OW suffering so.

Made me gag. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

kirk

I'd love to tell the gutter trash my H is involved with what I think of her, but I know that wouldn't go well. I know she doesn't give a flip about me or the pain she's causing. I'd just give her more to laugh about. I won't do that.

KLD,

Do not tell ow off, just gives the infidels more ammo.

I never trashed ow and never trashed my WH during the A. It's funny, because ow trashed me hard, my H ended up defending me, and that's even funnier, because he told her 'all' our problems, of course in WH fog.

Anyway, all I am saying is take the high road, I know it is hard sometimes.

However, I did call ow up after my H had been with me for 3 weeks and then took her out to see my favorite singer/musician at that time. so I called and left a message that I was praying for her and had a little info. She called back and I let her know that H had been staying with me, and did she know we were having SF? Oh my gosh. Of course she lied a bunch and after my H cooled off over it and I told him what she said (lies), it really helped to put a damper on the A. ow accused H of cheating on her!!! LOL. Well, she was a stalker, hard to get rid of, but off she went eventually. She was pure evil and I was the guiding light to the way home!

Maybe not your situation, but I had to tell you, I never once put her down, even when I confronted her with what was really going on. It really did end up in my favor. So don't go to their level, take the high road, and do not trash ow or your WH. EVER.

Innocent as a dove and wise as a snake my dear. Use your information to better your PLAN.

You are WORTHY!!!!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

I won't contact OW, though I'd love to be able to tell her what I think. I know that won't help my cause at all.

So WH has been very attentive and even loving the past week or so. I'm not sure why. If I didn't know about his A, I'd think he was invested in our M again and doing his part to make it work. Still see some disconnect, but overall he seems to be happy. I don't have latest phone records, but I doubt seriously that the A is declining. So is this what they do? Act like they care to make you think they're the loving H you want?

Since he doesn't know I know about his A yet, his behavior is confusing. I don't think anything has happened to make him stop the A. He has been so distant and disconnected with me up until about 2 weeks ago, I don't get the change. He may be getting used to the guilt and now it's not so hard to deal with it.

I honestly think that, once a person goes into an A, and gets away with it, they receive some sort of 'high' from keeping it going under their spouse's nose, so to speak. Not that he wants to hurt you, but that it's giving him some sort of sick power, king of the mountain, thing. I think that's why they get so happy.

Ouch. Based on my FWW's actions during her A, I would agree that the guilt does seem to disappear after awhile. I think I might run what you said by my FWW to see if she agrees that was her frame of mind while the A was ongoing.

Any insight into how they feel guilt and if they get a "high" off of their deceit would be helpful.

Went to psych today. Got script for Lexapro and Xanax. Really hope these help. I've felt so much anxiety today. I've felt like my heart would beat out of my chest. More emotional today than usual, too. Not sure why that is. Since I found out about the A, I've been less emotional than before I knew for sure. I've been very upset, but not on the brink of tears every minute like I was before. I don't know what's going on with me today.

First, I apologize if this hurts anyone's feelings. But I think it may (I say 'may') approximate what a WS goes through. But I'm just guessing.

The way I understand it, once the person engages in an A, their 'me' thinking takes over, making them the most important person in the world. You have to be able to do that, I'd think, to have the A in the first place. You 'finally' place your own importance ahead of compromising for the sake of the M, cos, hey, you deserve some happiness once in a while.

For instance, you might have been having rumblings for quite awhile; you convince yourself your spouse is a jerk; you deserve better; if they weren't such jerks you wouldn't be looking elsewhere; hey that person in my office really is responding to me, I guess I'm loveable after all; if only my spouse would listen to me like that or look at me that way, then I wouldn't be feeling this way; well, if S isn't going to make the extra effort, then screw her, I'll go ahead and talk to this woman, it can't hurt; I can't believe how much she 'gets' me when S doesn't; you know, I keep looking for signs that S really cares, but they're just not there, so why shouldn't I be entitled to spend time with someone who does care; this might hurt S but if the marriage was really working I wouldn't have to be doing this; well I met the OW and she makes me feel alive!, like I did when I was 20!, why can't S do this?; why doesn't S care about me, she's all wrapped up in her own world, so just screw her if he isn't going to work to keep me when someone else finds me attractive and wants to listen to me talk; you know S must really be self-absorbed, if she doesn't even realize what's going on under her nose - if she really cared she'd be jumping all over me for acting different but she obviously couldn't care less, which is why I'm better off spending more time with OW; and I'm doing it, and nobody knows any better, and nobody cares, and everybody's happy, cos we're all getting what we want, right?

Like I said, just a guess. Hope it helps.

btw, KLD, you were in crisis mode, which can't last forever. Now that you're taking steps, you're starting to emerge out from behind that wall and experience the real feelings, so you're going to go through a lot of ups and downs.

I know you're right, Cat. I'm starting to feel things I really hadn't gotten to before. Today I'm actually wondering if I want to give this M a chance. I've been continuing to put together the timeline and see just how much communication there has been between these two and it's mind blowing what was going on right under my nose. I wasn't allowed to question what WH was doing because he was in crisis mode, too, and couldn't take it. The truth was that he was in an A and didn't want me to know.

I'm remembering some of the events of the summer and fall and I'm nauseated all over again. I feel like a total fool for not finding out the truth sooner and for actually believing the crap he was filling me with.

I know it's a DJ to assume what his reactions will be, but I am fairly certain he will not be interested in doing the work to save this M. I think he may want to save the M, but he won't be willing to do what it will take - be transparent, no contact, etc. I'm very nervous about offering him a chance to work things out just to have him go deeper underground with his A.

I also found out he's been calling phone sex lines, too. Also, I think I mentioned there's another woman, too. This is so much deeper than I thought. I don't know if I have it in me to work this out if he isn't totally enthusiastic about doing the work - and like I said, I doubt that he will be willing to do much at all.

KLD, I'm sorry it's been so up and down. I don't think you were a total fool. You were trusting someone who you had no reason not to trust. Sounds reasonable to me. I can imagine how you would feel that way, though.

When do you plan to give him the invitation?

(((KLD))) Hang in there, hon. Have you heard the expression "Hanging with the Winners"? I really see you doing that here, not spending time with people who get you down. Do you have great friends IRL to spend time with? Folks who make you feel more like yourself?

I don't have the invitation letter written yet. I've started it, but can't seem to finish it. I go back and forth between wanting to try that plan first and wanting to just confront him and go from there.

I do believe that the invitation letter is a good idea and it will give him a chance to tell me what he's been doing on his own. I just don't think it will be the catalyst that will make anything positive happen, though. I also know that I won't know for sure unless I try.

I guess the more I find out about his activities, the more hurt I become. I know I need to know what he's been doing, but to know that he's been doing all this through the worst year of our M is devastating. All the things I did to encourage and support him through his business start up and job search and depression and the whole deal and I get repaid for that with EAs, PAs, phone hookers, lies, deceit, and indifference.. How do I get past that?

If he had had the As under "normal" conditions, I would be just as angry and very hurt, but the fact that I was worried sick about his health and doing all in my power to hold everything together while he figured his career out for over a year really does take a bigger toll.

Maybe not MB-worthy, but I say, let yourself be angry about that. Use it to keep going, and keep it in the back of your mind when you confront him, so that you don't find yourself slipping into 'what did I do wrong' territory.

KLD - I give you much credit for the patience you've demonstrated. That said, I guess I'm not clear on why you are waiting to confront your H (or give him the invitation) to end the A. From my outsider's perspective it seems that you are prolonging the agony and making this even harder (or at least longer-lasting) on you than it needs to be.

It may be that you believe strongly that your approach is best for you and your situation and if so I certainly respect that. And if you continue to follow this approach I wish you continued strength.

Good luck.

TIM

Thanks, Cat. I'm keeping a journal - just started it last week - and I'm recording my resentments and feelings. I have put this one in there, but it keeps coming back especially as I continue to dig into his activities.

I'm definitely not going to take any responsibility for his decisions. Of course I take responsibility for my half of the M, but not for his decision to get involved with OP. The journal will hopefully help me stay on that track. For me, one of my biggest challenges will be confronting him with the info I have and doing it withoug LBs.

I may have to take a double does of anti-anxiety pills before I start that convo!!

Dear KLD,

This is my first post ever to MB although I have been lurking daily for almost 8 months, since D-day on 5/31/2007. I find typing incredibly difficult and just don't have time to get all the thoughts written out, but I have been dying to post my own situation and get the advice of the experts. I post now though because I find I can not stop thinking about your situation and some of the similarities between your husband and mine. As you can imagine, I am hardly an expert and am extremely reluctant to give advice on a first post, but I have been reading your posts since you first arrived and even at the beginning noted some similar behaviors. How I wish that someone might have pointed me in the right direction.
I understand your deep resentment over being such a support and helpmeet to your husband and then finding out that he was cheating the entire time. My husband starting acting very depressed, angry, sad and worried in June of 2006. I was genuinely concerned for him and did everything in my power to be supportive and loving. I encouraged him to get counseling(useless, and another whole story). I strove to meet his ENs even though I didn't call them that at the time. We have some unusual circumstances that he tried to blame his feelings on. He has a disability that prevents him from from driving. I drive him to and from work(100 miles roundtrip) and have done this since we got married almost 7 years ago. This limits my ability to work also. Moving closer is not a possiblity at this time for many reasons. He constantly complained(in 2006) about feeling dependent on me. I was and AM acutely aware of these feelings and have worked diligently to assure him that I see him as "manly" and capable(which he truly is except for this disability). He was not one bit interested in allowing me to meets his ENs. He would actually get angrier when we had a nice time together. In September 2006, he admitted to me that he "wasn't sure what he wanted" (Actually he was sure. He wanted to be a cake-eater.). He loved me but he said he was just so mixed-up. He thought maybe a mid-life crisis. Over and over and over he would tell me that everything was fine and then he would get distant and depressed and cold. A week later he would be fine again. After an initial counseling session with an IC he refused to go back( I now know it was because he admitted to her that he was cheating and she told him to end it). I asked him several times if he was cheating and of course he reassured me he was not. He used the excuse that , "Well how can I? I can't even get anywhere on my own!!" So, I would feel guilty for accusing this poor man who was just struggling with his awful feelings of inadequacy, while the whole time, he was cheating with her at work. And everyday I took him there. I am greatly condensing this story. There is much more to it. Sometime I will post it so that I can get some good advice from the WONDERFUL vets on this board. But for now I just want to focus on some of the similarities. Like you, I am an extraordinarily patient woman. I struggled and struggled to find the right approach and the right ways to make this man I love feel better. I tried to make myself a better wife. And I know now is that he took strong advantage of this. He knew I loved him and that I trusted him and boy oh boy did he use that!!! It looks to me as if your husband is doing the same thing. I believe that my husband felt somewhat guilty as he continued down the wayward path, but mostly I think he just felt entitled. He tells me that he just wished that I would get out of his way and let him do what he wanted.
The worst part of all of this is that last winter he gave me an STD. It wasn't one of the usual ones, but it is classified by the CDC as an STD because sex is the most common form of transmission. At the time though, I thought we had caught this horrific ailment from another source, because it was not at all out of the realm of possiblity. This episode turned our lives completely upside down. I had to become a cleaning maniac and do some intensive research before we were able to get rid of the scourge. It took about 6 HORRIBLE weeks to end it. He was sicker than I was and I felt SO sorry for him. I discovered later that every night as I was doing the intense, necessary things needed to cure us, he was outside on his cell phone talking to the OW. Even now, the betrayal of working so hard to help him while struggling to help him maintain his dignity is almost unbearable.
Through it all, I kept trying to figure out what was really wrong. I was beginning to get impatient and (finally!!) began to look at his cell phone. The light started to turn on but it took me a few weeks to put it all together. 10 days before D-Day, things SUDDENLY got better. He SUDDENLY semed like his old self. It was like night and day. I was relieved and thrilled although a little skeptical. This is the day he ended the affair. I didn't realize it until I actually found out on 5/31.
When you wrote about your husband seeming more interested in making things work, I realized I had to write to you.
My husband was on the verge of starting the relationship back up when I caught him. If I had waited even one more day to confront him, I think all might have been lost. I can not emphasize that enough. I am urging you not to wait. My husband will tell me now that he ended it because he felt guilty ,but I believe that he knew I was getting close to discovery. When he ended it and I did not seem to know about it, he felt relief that he had gotten away with it. This gave him the freedom to contact her again(just to make sure she she was ok, ...yeah, right).
I have had to come to an understanding that a big part of my "patience" was merely denial. I did not want the truth to be the truth. And even more, I wanted to be able to "handle" the truth and "handle" myself. I did not want to be seen as a b****, but as a loving, reasonable woman. It was not a good plan for me. When I found out, I was angry beyond belief(everyone here understands that feeling) and I love-busted my a** off. I am NOT sorry I did that AT ALL. I truly believe that if I had been loving or controlled in any way that my husband would have continued to take advantage of my "patience". He would have continued the lies because he would never have understand the depth of my feeling. His whole aim as a wayward was to protect himself and I unwittingly aided him by being understanding. I also believe that my husband would NEVER have admitted his cheating on his own. Angry Confrontation was the only way. He believes this also. Confrontation was also the MOST painful experience I have ever had. But if I had not done it and done it the way I did, I have NO DOUBT that my husband would be gone .(Please note that I attempt in every way not to love bust NOW, but I consider confrontation to be another matter entirely)
My husband did not cheat BECAUSE he was depressed. He was depressed BECAUSE he was cheating. The depression started when he started cheating and ended when he stopped. Period. He no longer needed it. He lied and lied and lied and lied and used my empathy FOR him AGAINST me.
I realize that your situation is not the same, but I felt so strongly that there were similarities in personalities that I wanted to post to you. You have also been married about the same amount of time as us.
We are recovering. It is incredibly difficult, but it it is happening and in a few years I hope I can write a true sucess story. I will tell you and anyone else reading , that THIS BOARD has saved my sanity. The advice given here is priceless. These people know how to save marriages when the rest of the world is telling us to "get rid of the bum." I thank you all humbly. You have all given me the validation I needed to say, "Hey wait a minute. I love my husband and I WANT to be married to him. This CAN work."
KLD, you are a wonderful, loving woman. It is clear that you have your husband's best interests at heart. Do not allow him to use your kindheartedness against you any longer. Again, I know that it is arrogant of me to even offer advice. Please feel free to ignore me. I am keeping you and your husband in my prayers and believing for healing and recovery.


Working Hard to Love Easy

BS(me)-54
FWH-50
M-7 years
DS-26
DD-24
2nd M -Me
1st M-H

WH2LE - thank you so much for posting your story. Your advice to not wait to confront my WH is not arrogant or misplaced - I know I need to do it and I'm thankful for the reminder. It does sound like our situations are similar and it helps me to know that someone has been where I am now (though I'm sorry for you that you've been here) and has been successful in getting to recovery.

Like you, I think much of my patience has been denial. I also have tried so hard to do the things he said he needed from me during this past year of difficulties with his depression and work situation. LBs for him were me asking questions about what he was doing with his job search and offering opinions and advice about that. When I look back on it, he was probably doing very little in the job search area because he was texting his OW all day or possibly even meeting up with her. He definitely didn't want me knowing the details of his job search - or lack of details I should say.

I tried to be understanding and loving and patient just waiting on him to get settled. There were times when I wanted to just be divorced and out of the situation but I'd married him for better or worse and I didn't sign on for only the good times. I also couldn't stand the thought of walking out on him when he was vulnerable and down. These thoughts were rare, though, because most of the time I was focused on doing the right things to be the wife he needed when he was struggling. I tried everything I could think of to be supportive without being intrusive and directive.

I didn't mean to rehash my previous posts, it's a little close to the surface today - again.

I'm still struggling with how to expose when the time comes. I'd welcome any thoughts on how to expose in this situation.

WH doesn't have many close friends that have influence over him. His mother had an A that broke up his home when he was a teenager. She never married the man, though she was with him for most of her adult life after her D. This really affected WH. I don't know that anything she says about an A will influence him given her own behavior. His sister is a possibility, but they just aren't that close - his family lives in England and we're in the US and we don't see them that often and he doesn't talk to his sister very much.

As for my family being an influence on him - my parents just don't get it a good bit of the time. They've not been all that helpful to me when I've needed it in my adult life and I just think they'd do more harm than good. They mean well, they just don't have the skills to understand. My brother and SIL would love to help, but I just don't know if WH would hear what they have to say. They're very religious and WH is a believer, but would be turned off by the very, very Biblical approach that they would take.

As for exposing OW, she's divorced (or at least has a child with a man who doesn't live with her). I think I've found him, but not sure he's involved in the child's life. If not, there's no leverage there. I think she comes from a family that doesn't place high value on marriage and fidelity from what I've gathered. I don't know where she works for exposure there.

Any ideas on crafting an exposure plan in this situation?

Boy, I'd really want to be ready before I did exposure. Close any stray bank accounts, open one in only your name. Get advice from a divorce lawyer (just in case.) Move anything into your name that you will need (again, just in case.)

He might flip things over, and ask for a divorce no matter whether or not you want to work on it.

You have to be firmer in your mind, too, about which way you want to go. Are you only 60% committed to working it out? If so, it will color everything you do.

But if you are 95% committed to working it out (may take some time to get there,) you will come from a much stronger place. Your actions will come from a more positive place.

When the time came, yes, I would tell everyone. But if there are any mental or physical risks to the health of his or your relatives, I would tone it way down.

You don't know what more you might discover during this time frame. You certainly have an educated point of observation at this point. I'd wait and gather more information myself.

It seems every time he gets closer to you, he may be thinking of ending the affair. Then every time he distances himself, he is revamping the affair. Back and forth, back and forth. Did you figure out how long it's been going on yet?

KLD,
With all I said in my long-winded story, I forgot to tell you how sorry I am that you find yourself at this place in life. When I read that the Harleys have found that infidelity is comparable to rape in terms of trauma, I was relieved that my feelings were so well-understood.

I also wanted to tell you that before I confronted him and before I actually KNEW about the affair, I was CERTAIN that my husband would not work on our marriage. I knew I was losing him but I couldn't figure out why. When I confronted, he of course denied it. It was crucial that I did not let him continue doing that. When he told me it was just an emotional relationship I told him that I knew he was lying(even though I did not know THAT for certain). With some personalities, they will not come clean until you absolutely force them to. I refused to accept my husband's story and I refused to be understanding and supportive. It still took him one whole week to admit the entire truth. It was literally like pulling teeth. He did not want to have to deal with my reaction to his behavior. I could see that every time he gave me a tidbit of information he relaxed, as if telling himself, " Whew! Now I don't have to say anymore. She has enough." I finally learned that patiently waiting for his guilt to overwhelm him was NOT going to happen.

But here we are , almost 8 months later and we're still plugging along. It is NOT easy. I still feel that I do the heavy work of recovery, but I let him get away with it less and less. (In no small part due to the advice I read on his forum). I think we will make it but I am not totally convinced yet. What I know is that I WANT to make it, HE says he wants to make it and is genuinely remourseful and that is where we are heading. I am trying to see progress in even the small things. For instance, he stopped smoking. That was a huge LB for me and I never thought he'd stop. I had given up talking it about a few years ago. It means so much to me that he would stop at such a trying time.

Until you confront your husband you will NOT know whether he will work or not. Even then, his first reaction will probably not be his LAST reaction.

I am praying for you, for courage to deal with this and for a recovery that defies the imagination. Your husband is a lucky man.

WH2LE

KLD, I agree with Valentine. When he gets close to you he is thinking about ending it. When he distances he is back into the affair. This is EXACTLY how my husband did it. He admitted this after. Confusing as all get-out when you are the BS. But if he is close to you now, I would seriously consider acting NOW!!

Do you have a Pastor that you can expose to?

I don't have a pastor to expose to really. I'm not a regular church goer and WH doesn't go with me when I go. That is a closed avenue for me.

I guess my instinct would be to be as prepared as possible. Set up your bank accounts so he can't take money, already speak with a lawyer just in case, know what your rights are, print out your evidence. Send the kids away for the evening, eat dinner first, and then pull out the folder. Hand it to him. Wait. Remain as unemotional as possible so he can't manipulate the situation. Ask him to explain. Tell him you are going to follow certain steps that are 'recommended' for a WS, let him know them, offer him the choice of coughing it all up now or forcing you to interview everyone involved. Above all, retain your right, as the wronged person, to know all and expect restitution.

Yesterday I found another charge to Victoria's Secret and one to a women's clothing store in his bank statement that was made on 1/23. He said he had been working at the shop on a project that day with no mention of a trip to the mall. So, he either saw her yesterday - she must have come here - or he is hiding what he bought her to give to her at a later date. He was home when I got home on the 23rd at 5PM, but they had all day to be together if she drove to our city. No doubt this is getting more intense.

The odd thing is that we had dinner last night and I joked with him that he never sends me any texts (thinking in the back of my mind that he texts 2 OW all day long). He sent me one right then with a racy question and I answered yes. It was flirty and fun. We stopped at a coffee shop on the way home and I told him he seems happier lately than he had been in December - was it because of the new job? He replied that that was part of it, but the other part is that he is happier in our M. I asked if he was feeling more commited and he said he felt all the way commited. I told him that I still had feelings of resentment and hurt over things he'd done and that I hope we can work through those things soon. I reminded him that he'd done some pretty bad things and damaged the relationship, but that I'd been working hard to become the kind of wife he can feel safe in talking to. I told him I've forgiven him for these things but I need to understand them so we can prevent them in the future. I told him that I will always try to listen with love and no AO. He agreed that that's what he's wanted from me and that he's seen lots of improvement in that area lately. He told me that he wants to have a good M and that he believes we can have that together. We dropped that conversation there, but this was a bit of a breakthrough for us in that it wasn't emotionally charged and it didn't last for an hour or more. Actually, the whole conversation was done in 3-4 minutes. Conversation after this was light and normal.

When we got home, I changed into a sexy nighty (per the text message) and he didn't even notice. I snuggled up to him and tried to get his attention and he wasn't interested. For once, though, I didn't bring up the promising text message at dinner that he didn't follow through on and I did which would probably have been a LB for him. Instead it was an LB for me - no follow through on his part.

Is he just playing both sides of the fence to see what deal is going to work out best for him? Does he think he can have a piece on the side and a good home life, too? If he were to D me for OW#1, his income level would drop more than half of our current household income. OW may not be working now (I can't find that info out) but if she is, her salary is in the 20K range based on the kind of work she does.

Cat, I'm definitely getting prepared. I saw a lawyer about 2 weeks ago. She said since we don't have kids, our situation won't be all that complicated. We don't have a pile of money, but there are some things I'll need help in protecting if it comes to that.

I've started a file with all the A evidence and as much info on OW1 and OW2 that I can find. I've got some bank info and more bank info I need to get. I've got his retirement info that will go against him, too.

I've started putting some cash aside in a safe deposit box that nobody will know about, though I hate to leave it in cash because it will be just sitting there, but if nobody knows about it I won't run the risk of having half of it take away and given to him.

If he had pushed for a D and there had been no A, I'd have been more than willing to split things and be fair. I'm less inclined to do so at this point if we end up in a D.

I still believe I'm going to write the invitation letter and see how that goes. The letter will require coaching by Jennifer. If he refuses to do that then I will present him with the info I have about his activities. I think he will try to see her next week because he has time off before he starts his new job. I've got the PI lined up for that for concrete stuff I can give him.

Yes. This is that 'high' I've mentioned before. That they're getting away with it, that they're on top of the world for this brief time. It's such a high they feel they can conquer anything. Why didn't they try this before?

Nauseatingly disgusting. I'd never, ever consider doing something even remotely like this to him. I also know he believes that about me. He knows that I'm loyal to him and that I don't lie to him. So what makes these people think they have the right to act this way?

hi kld,

i am sorry for you that this is so hurtful for you. you are amazing in how you are handling this.

is there any merit in turing up the heat and you start sending him racy text messages - since this seems to be one of his choices of communication to ow. being that you mentioned it and he responded back right away you could start from there. this might be one more way to open lines of communication between you and him?

it is great you are taking action and stashing $$$ etc. get all the financial ducks in order. is there any large purchase you are needing? like a new car? now clothes? furniture? might be a good time to get now and use HIS $$! : }

hugs to you... be strong.

KLD, you are approaching this with open eyes now. When my husband was texting [his] ex, I had a fear that he might accidentally text me one of her messages. It never happened, but when you mentioned the come-on text with no follow-up, it reminded me of that fear.

Now that he has both of you in his text messages, he could get mixed up. KEEP AT HIM. Do whatever it takes to get him to send you multiple messages a day. He will run a high risk of getting the two of you mixed up, which may give you further solid evidence, if only for yourself.

The VS purchase nearly confirms this is a PA, but ... there still isn't a smoking gun, is there? The PI might help with that.

Now that you are set on improving the marriage, he is really locked into having his cake and eating it too. He is loving this. What is he telling the other woman? Of course, that some day he'll leave you. That is my guess.

My husband played both sides when it came to his ex. Even though they divorced over 4 years ago, he presented me to her as a friends-with-benefits (total lie; he told his friends he was in love, I was his girlfriend, and he was going to marry me.) You see? Even when there is nothing physical going on, a man will tell one woman one version of the situation, and the OW, a different version. In the eyes of a cheating man, there is nothing wrong with fudging his stories.

It is smart to set aside some money.

or perhaps he could trip up and send a racy text message ment for you to ow ....

Wouldn't it be so ironic if you asked hubby to take you to Victoria's Secret? After his racy text message, you'd have an excuse. Could you find a way to get him to go to the same location? I would LOVE to see the look on his face.

There is a way too to get copies of reciepts. You call the store with the date, time and amount of transaction. Say you lost the receipt and need a reprint. These days, most stores can do this. It usually requires a trip to the store to pick up the receipt.

Then you'd know EXACTLY what he bought her. Could even eye that section with him by your side. That would freak him out. However, it's just my mind whizzing ahead <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />... I love practical jokes. (I once broke up with a man who was actively trying to cheat. He asked for his shoes. I packed all of his LEFT shoes in a bag and gave it too him.) You may not be in the frame of mind to go to such extremes, but I couldn't resist.

I agree that now would be the time to get around to the larger purchases you had been putting off, citing his new job. I don't think you have to split anything that was technically a gift? Get LOTS of lingerie if you can. Helpful divorce or no divorce.

I may start sending him some racy messages. So far the ones I've sent have been just thinking about you, etc. He is the one who sent the racy one to me last night. Would be interesting to get him caught in a cross-message situation..

I do believe the smoking gun will have to come from getting pictures of them together. I also believe he will wiggle out if all I have as evidence is some text messages - even if it is 2000+ every month.

He is off work all next week before he starts a new job on 2/4. I'm having the PI follow him for part of that time next week to see what they can turn up.

Valentine - we were at the mall on Saturday and I asked him if he thought he might ever get me a surprise from VS. He said he probably would some time. I've asked him similar things before and he never follows through with them. If I were to get him to go in there with me he wouldn't freak out - he has ice water in his veins and rarely shows any emotion about things other than sports or motorcycles or cars.

Wait a minute. You suggested a surprise for yourself from VS, and a few days later, he bought something there for the OW?! That is one cold-hearted fish.

I see what you mean.

That may be exactly what happened. Or it might be a V-Day gift for KLD. (I don't exactly believe that, but I'm not prone to do gift-buying three weeks in advance.)

I made more than one incorrect assumption about my WS's behavior. The constant lying is crazy-making. But I suggest trying to distinguish between what is known with certainty and what is only "probable".

- WG

I had hoped that the VS purchase could have been for me, but I know him so well and it's most likely not for me. We have never exchanged V-Day gifts - cards and dinner out only. He usually gets the card about 12 minutes before he needs to give it to me. He did buy me something from VS our first year of M but he didn't go there and get it and bring it to me - he had me pick out the nighty I'd like and then he paid for it.

He also made a $150 purchase from a womans clothing store the same day. He has never bought clothes for me - ever. He suggested on Friday night after dinner that we go to the mall and get me some new pants since most of mine are too big now since my weight loss. He helped me pick out some and stood there and watched me pay for everything with my own Macy's card.

I've been trying to get into his car and see if there's a package in there, but he's kept it locked. I don't have a key to his car - it's an Expedition and I won't drive it because it's just too big for me. I looked in the back and there appears to be a box that could contain his purchases, but it may be something else.

You're right that the lies make it difficult to believe anything they say is the truth. I'm so tired of that. I look at him and can't believe he's the same man I fell in love with and the man who once loved me so much.

I'd sneak is key when he is sleeping. Take your digital camera. What a piece of work.

KLD
Remember that this is NOT the man you fell in love with and who loved you so much. THIS is a WH, an alien, someone who is deep in the fog. He sees EVERYTHING in the fog-light of infidelity. Until some light is shown into his alien/fogged brain, he won't see anyhting clearly.

My husband tells me now that he thought he was the cleverest, smartest man for being so able to pull this off.

Think about it. You know may not know everything, but you know A LOT about what he is doing and he has NO IDEA that you know. NONE!!! How dense is THAT??? Obviously he hasn't been completely careful because YOU FIGURED IT OUT!!!! But he THINKS he has.
Foggy, fog, fog. The man you loved IS in there somewhere and MAY come back.

No one is going to fault you in the least if you decide you want a divorce. You certainly have grounds in every way. But if you decide you want to try and recover, once he knows that YOU know, then you have come to the right place. These folks can help you do and say the things that might help the fog clear.

God bless you KLD!!!

WH2LE

He was extremely withdrawn yesterday. It started after lunch and lasted the rest of the day. I ignored the attitude very well - most other times I'd be concerned and keep asking what was wrong. Many of those times he would tell me how unhappy he is in our M. So yesterday I acted like there wasn't anything different.

He was miserable to be around, but I just sucked it up and moved on. I took an Ambien before I went to bed last night so I wouldn't wake up wondering about things and when I woke up this morning he hadn't slept in our bed. He was on the couch all night, I guess.

His phone records were updated through last night and he only called his mother yesterday. He hasn't spoken to the OW since Wednesday. They are still texting, I'm sure, though those records don't updated as quickly as the phone calls do.

I'm getting close to the point where I'm ready to confront him. I wanted to see if it would taper off on it's own, but that was wishful thinking on my part. I'm getting things in order for myself and I'll talk to him soon.

Thanks for reminding me that the H who once loved me may still be there. It helps to know that it is possible to save this M.

KLD,
Withdrawn might(only a maybe of course) atually be WITHDRAWAL. The few times my husband tried to end his A, he was heavy-duty into withdrawal when he was with me. I didn't realize this of course and just thought he was distant and crabby. Does this sound like your guy?

When he ACTUALLY ended it, he was much more like his normal self. BUT...that's also when the OW started with hang-up calls. Although I answered the phone, he knew it was her. It started to make him panicky and worried about her. That's when he texted her to find out how she was and I think things would have started back up big time if I had not confronted him.

Also, when my husband was withdrawn he said EXACTLY the same things you say your husband says. Unhappy with the marriage, doesn't know what he wants, blah, blah, blah. What I now know as fogspeak. Also just "happened" to fall asleep on the couch and stay there all night. Honestly, as some others here have said, it's like there is a special script written for waywards. None of them are very origianl.

If your WH is actually withdrawing from the OW, don't give her the chance to sneak back in. Jump in and claim the marriage that is rightfully yours.

Hang in there KLD. There are MANY people on your side and praying for good things for you, including courage and happiness.

Things are far from perfect with me and my FWH. We are on a very hilly roller coaster, but at least we are no longer dealing with OW and I pray that soon you will not be either.

hi kld,

just wanted to send you a he11-o. continue to be strong.

and if the above is correct that he may be trying to withdraw from ow ratchet up the charm and sweep him off his feet. you have so much compassion and kindness and only deserve good things.

warmest wishes to you...

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm not sure this was withdrawal for him, I think he may just be on middle ground again not knowing what he wants to do. I think there are times when he wants our M but can't stop the A and other times he would rather have the OW. In reality I'm not sure he actually wants her, he may just want the freedom to see her when he wants to and not have the resonsibility of being married. Who knows, really, though.

I told him last night when he went to bed that I love him and that I'll always be there for him if he needs anything. He said he knows that and he's glad he has that. I am losing my patience, though. I do believe this has been going on longer than I thought at first - maybe for over a year.

He also smoked again yesterday and he had gone without smoking for about 3 weeks.

How do you keep your motivation to work things out when he seems to be such a lost cause?

KLD, I wanted to tell you that I've been keeping up with your thread, and admire your stick-to-it-iveness through this. I'm relieved that you're planning to end the waiting soon, though. It seems like more stress than most of us could bear. I think it falls into taking care of yourself, too. But I understand the wishing it would end on its own NOW, too!

I'd love to keep hearing about the good things that you're doing for yourself, too. An internal over external focus helps so much when you can get it, right?

What is your plan in the meanwhile, while you're getting the invitation and information together?

(((KLD)))

If it was me, I'd start working on myself. At the same time. Stop and decide who you want to be even if he wasn't around. You probably have made many sacrifices and compromises along the way; do you still need to be making them? Is there something about you that you gave up? Can you get it back? A hobby, a friend, a trip, a career, a new way of running your house? I believe someone asked wonderin to imagine how she'd be progressing, if her husband suddenly died, or something like that. I think it's a healthy thing to do - to imagine you taking care of you. If you take him back, make sure you know already what YOU want out of life, and that his new role in that life is full of YOU. I think it would take some of the stress out, of not knowing if things will work out. If they do, great; if they don't, you're already on the way to becoming the person you've always wanted to be, so you'll be that much stronger and happier. IOW, stop focusing so much on him. You're the one who should be the star of your show now; he has to earn his ticket back.

Cat, I like your suggestions! KLD, your motivation to work things out is about YOU and who you are, not about him and his actions. No one would fault you for whatever choice you make.

Do you know folks who've been married more than once? My experience is that the first one was the closest fit for what they needed from life and what they needed to learn, and they all tend to get further away from there. For example, dating someone 180 degrees opposite of the first spouse in some way, instead of someone more compatible or middle ground. What is your experience?

LOL, well, I have to say that I sure know if I ever remarried, he WOULD be 180 degrees away from my H! I love the guy, but he is not what I signed up for!

Cat and EO - thanks so much to each of you for keeping up with me. It means alot and helps me know that someone cares - even if they don't "know" me. I've told only 3 people about the latest discovery with my WH - my best friend and my brother and SIL. So this board is really the best outlet I have. My best friend works as a consultant - 50 hour work weeks always on the road, so I hate to be a big burden to her. I hate to dump too much on my B and SIL because they have a daughter with Down's Syndrome (she's doing wonderfully, but still...) and my nephew is a college freshman. They both have jobs where they deal with problems of others and I just don't want to be a burden on them. All three have been wonderful to me and for me, but I just don't want all my interaction with them to be about my WH and problematic M.

I have to say that there are times when I'm on the fence about what I truly think is the right thing for me in this M. Part of me wants the M to work and part of me feels that even if we stay M I won't ever be able to trust him. I've made so many changes to be what he said he wants, but when I look back on his requirements they seem to be only because he didn't want me getting insight into what he was doing. So, I backed off of asking questions and we stopped having meaningful discussions because he couldn't deal with them. He has made few changes through our M and my believe is that this trend will continue. I've said before (DJ alert) that he is stubborn and I don't expect that to change.

Anyway, I've decided to continue with the PI to see if I can get some indisputable info. He says he must go out of town tomorrow into the area she lives. I can't get in touch with my PI, though!!! I've left 4 messages, so hopefully they'll call soon.

When I get that indisputable evidence, I'm going to give him the invitation letter and see what he says. If he refuses, I'll confront him with what I know. If he accepts and then doesn't follow through, I'll confront him then.

In the meantime, I'm planning to get my work life back on track. I've been spending too much time at work worrying about my M. I'm also going to counseling again starting tomorrow. I'm planning to get some botox!! The stress has made me start looking old. I always looked about 10 years younger than I am (no kids!!! LOL) and now I think I'm starting to look my age. I've lost about 25 lbs in the past 2-3 months. I shopped for new clothes over the weekend and bought 2 pair of size 4 pants and 3 pairs of size 6. I've never been this size (1 year ago I was a 12-14) and I'm going to take advantage of it.

So the things I'm going to do for myself may sound shallow and self indulgent. But I'm going to do them.

EO - on second marriages, I've noticed the same thing. Most people I've known do tend to choose opposites of their first choice in their second marriages. I'm not sure I'd go to that extreme because we do have so much in common and we are very compatible on most things. Obviously, I'd rank a few traits higher on my scale than I did in this round if it comes to that!!!

Just talked to my PI and I'm on track for tomorrow. He will be followed to ensure he goes to the job he said he was doing. Then they'll see if he goes to see her after that. I truly can't imagine that he would be that close to where she lives (only an hour or so away) and not see her.

There has been almost no communication between them since Thursday, though. Not sure what that means. He's done most of the texting and there have been no phone calls. Only about 12 texts between them since Wednesday afternoon through noon today. Normal days before this showed about 80-120 texts every day and usually a phone call every 2-3 days.

If they've had a spat, that could be the cause of his crappy mood over the weekend.

KLD, I'm glad that there's an end in sight. Hang in there, hon. I'm glad that you're planning some things that'll make you happy. Do you have any inspiring friends to spend time with?

What do you think about sharing your weight loss secrets at our weight loss group <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

hi kld,

have you ever been able to read any of the text's they have been sending? i do not know how to text so i have no clue how they work.

i think it is great that you are getting your self some new things. maybe treat yourself to a relaxing massage or facial along with the botox.

i so admire the ability that you have had to get this far without losing it when around him.

my heart goes out to you. hopefully the pi will get evidence to help you move forward.

please take care of yourself. you are in my thoughts. <3

EO - I wouldn't mind sharing how I lost the weight, but I did it the stress and Crohn's Disease way. I haven't been able to eat very much at all for about the last 5-6 months and that's how the weight came off. I do plan to keep it off, though, and am starting an exercise routine to maintain this weight and get in shape. My example would be a bad one for anyone trying to lose weight in a healthy way.

Mrs_n, I have tried to read the texts they send, but never have access to his phone. He keeps it locked in his car almost all the time so I can't get hold of it.

The PI is following him this morning - got confirmation that she was behind him at 4:30AM. He called a few minutes ago to make sure I got up since he forgot to set the alarm so he has no idea someone is following him.

I don't know what I hope she finds out. Their communication had come to almost a screeching halt over the past 4-5 days, so who knows what has been going on. I don't know whether they will get together or not. If so, I've got my smoking gun. If not, I'll decide what I think I can handle and go from there.

Thanks so much for your support and for keeping up with me. I appreciate it more than I can express.

H's online cell phone account just updated for last night. He talked to her while I was out. I would imagine they'll get together today. Maybe the PI money will pay off after all. I'd much rather have this be nothing, but there's no way it can be anything other than an A with all the other evidence I've got. This will be the final piece I need to have him where he can't wiggle out.

From there it will be up to him to agree to NC and work to keep our M or decide to leave the M.

My plan is to present him with an invitation letter to work on our M before he goes out of town on 2/4. He will be out of town for his first week of his new job then. If he refuses the offer, I will confront him with what I know and see how things progress from there. During the week he is away he will have a chance to think about what he wants and I'll have the freedom to set some things up in case he decides he isn't interested in keeping our M.

Well, PI followed WH to OWs house. He's been there for almost an hour now. I called his cell phone a few minutes ago "to make sure he made it safely" and got his voicemail. Left a sweet and loving message.

PI is going to stay all day to see what happens. She's taking video so I should have the info I need.

Even though I knew this is what would happen, I thought I was prepared for it. I wasn't prepared at all.

He told me last night he probably will stay until Thursday. I have a few days to figure out what to do, I guess. I'd love to call OW home phone and ask for him, but that would be a really bad idea!!! LOL.

I have my counseling session at noon. Hopefully that will help calm me down.

I don't think any of us ever are ready. Do something nice for yourself and try to detach.

You've got great counseling set up. You know the important facts. You have evidence to confront/use-at-trial. You've been doing everything reasonable to preserve your marriage. The things under your control are fine. We have to trust God for the rest.

- WG

{{{KLD}}}, I'm so sorry. I can't even imagine how hard this is for you. Is there someone you can go see, spend time with, today? I don't want you to be alone. Your family and friends love you, and would want to be there for you, if you'll let them. Please don't take away from them the chance to help you.

Please know that I think you're amazing for being so strong and smart. You inspire me. And you'll be ok, no matter which way it goes, that's how much I admire you.

(((KLD))) I'm so sorry. I don't know if you want to hear this right now, but your life is so much bigger than his choice in actions. You are the same awesome person you were before all of this. I am glad that you're getting counseling today to help with this.

KLD

I had a whole long message I was going to post to you, but after today's events I will shorten this. I am SO sorry!!! As Wounded Gentleman said, we are NEVER ready for the absolute proof of infidelity, even when we KNOW it's happening.

I agree with every other poster here. Do something WONDERFUL for yourself.

Remember that even with the evidence being thrown right in his face, he will most likely deny. That's what waywards do. Someone on here actually had a video that she watched with her WH and he STILL denyed what was right before his eyes. But the denial will nOT last and there is one thing that is CERTAIN. No recovery can begin until he knows that YOU know and the A ends.

Right now your H is sitting on the fence AND cake eating. My FWH said that he couldn't figure out how to end the A(what a crock that was but he believed it at the time). When i confronted him, it gave him the REASON to stop(HE didn't say this but when the MC suggested it, he admitted it was true). Also, some people, both men and women, continue in all kinds of destructive and irresponsible behaviors merely because they lack SOMETHING(character? strength of will? they have addictive personalities? whatever?). It isn't always that they are having a grand time doing what they are doing. They just start doing something and get caught up in it and THINK they can't stop it even if they sort of want to. My FWH is like this about a number of things and I suspect yours is too.

I may be wrong but I think he will end the A and then you will be able to figure out what to do.

You are probably right on the money about the "changes" he has made. My FWH and I had a talk Sunday night about his "false" changes . HOWEVER, some of those changes have now become real.

I only speak so much about my FWH because he seems so much like yours.

You are a fantastic person and life is going to get better. Please keep coming here for support and encouragement.

WH2LE

{{{ KLD }}}

I am so sorry... I'm amazed at how strong you are. You are taking great actions, finding out the truth and facing it. You can never be completely ready for something like this.

Be gentle with yourself today. I'm glad you have a counseling session scheduled. It's good you have time to pull yourself together before you confront, also. You're right, calling OW's house would be a bad idea, no matter how tempting it sounds.

((((kld))))

i too am sharing your utter sadness in the events of today. i can only imagine the hurt you are feeling.

i have been listening to dr harley's radio show lately and he has commented several times that betrayal of this nature is, in his opinion, worse than rape. even though one might think one is *prepared* for the worst possible, it is so very difficult when actually faced with the reality.

i too was holding on to some type of hope that there was a *reasonable explanation* for his behavior.

i really think cat has a great idea in encouraging you to contact someone close. i am sure your b and sil would want to be there for you. please consider calling them.

please know you are in my thoughts and i am holding you close in my heart.

hugs ....

k,

i hope i am not out of line here but i was just mulling the events of today and wonder if there is any merit for you to continue to wait another week b/f exposing the a? i am concerned with you needing to sit, yet again, another week keeping this all inside you and trying to be *ok*.


will it make a big difference if you expose your knowledge sooner? you can still give him the letter and invite him to join you in working for your m.

i am worried about your mental and physical health as this is such a tremendous stress on you. you have been under this for so long. will it really make a lot of difference, after the events of today?

it seems denial is the typical response of the betray-or regardless what the evidence is.

again hon, i am just concerned about you. i hate to see you carry this burden any longer than need be. i apologize if this is hurtful as it is not my intent.

hugs .....

KLD,

I echo Mrs.N's concerns. Also, I talked about your sitch with my FWH and he also felt that at this point, the sooner you get this out into the light, the better. For you and for him.
Praying,

WH2LE

Mrs_n and WH2LE - I thank you both so much for your concern and your advice. I am considering how to expose and even at this point if I want to remain married. That is a heavy burden for me at the moment because the more I learn the more I feel it would be best to end the M.

Today my PI kept me informed of his movements. He went straight to her house this morning, stayed there for about 4 hours and then the 2 of them went out to a seafood place for lunch. He left me a voicemail that he grabbed a bite at DQ and it made him sick to his stomach. They then went to the place he was supposed to be working. They stayed there for 2 hours and then went back to her place. He sent me text messages saying that this job was alot more difficult than he had expected and that he would be working late into the night to get it done as quickly as he could. The PI reported that he and the OW and her D went to a Mexican restaurant for dinner and then back to her place. Another text saying he was working hard and probably wouldn't be able to call because there isn't a good signal in the plant where he is working. So many lies. I just feel so much more betrayed than I ever thought possible. I'm not sure I can forgive this.

I have talked to my B again. Also have talked to my 3 close girlfriends. They will keep my secret as long as I need them to.

As for the stress of holding this in, I still have questions about being ready for the consequences of revealing what I know. I want to be sure that if this ends in D, that I don't get screwed any more than I have to. So I feel like I have more work to do to protect myself before it gets to D.

I know this is MB - for saving marriages - but I don't know if I want to save mine any more.

I keep seeing people give the advice to secure your finances when going to plan b or D. I saw a new lawyer today who gave me plenty of advice and seemed to be willing to work hard for me, but couldn't help much on how I can secure my finances. What kind of professional is the best to advise me in this area?

My biggest concern is my retirement account. He has taken withdrawals from his and has not contributed as much as I have. So, my account balance is 4-5 times more than his. I absolutely do not want WH and OW to get my hard earned retirement money to spend on themselves. Anyone with experience on the best way to handle this?

I've even considered withdrawing it all and getting the cash and stashing in a safe deposit box. My lawyer said I could get caught with that scheme and it wouldn't look good to a judge. I can't imagine that looks that much worse than a long term adultrous affair... but then that's just me.

As I understand it, you can set up a new 401k and transfer the money, on your own unless you are joint signers on the old one. That may be wrong, but I think that's how it works.

Do you have an accountant/CPA? I'd get one of them to do the work for you.

KLD,
I do not know the laws in your state, but I do know that generally, length of marriage time has something to do with how entitled a spouse is to retirement money also.

Get your own checking, savings, etc. You can do all that fairly quickly. Do you own your own home? Is it in both your names? Change beneficiaries on any items that have him as listed as a beneficiary. Does this help you get started?
Also, consider actual divorce rather than dissolution(no-fault). It takes longer and is more expensive, but will be better for you financially in the end and worse for him.

I am still hoping you will confront him. You can not help but being lose love for him under these circumstances. He is lying and being as disrespectful as he possibly can be. But please remember that an affair THRIVES in secrecy. You may really be shocked at what happens when you bring it into the light.

MOST affairs end, no matter what. They are based on deceit and fantasy. They can not survive once they come into the real world. And the liklihood of your WH and his OW spending your money in retirement is slim to none. Even if they get married, only 3% of affarir marriages last beyond 5 years.

And most painful of all, (I know this because I have considered the possibility so many times myself), You will still have to recover from the pain of being betrayed. Divorce will not make it one bit easier. It will leave you with unresolved issues that are still going to take years to get past.

Have you considered the possibility of confronting him and then going immediately to Plan B? This would give you some time to prepare yourself before beginning a divorce and would let you see what he will really do.

I think your WH would be stunned to see you take the upper hand. For at least the last year he THINKS he has held all the cards and he has been stringing you along in true wayward fashion. When he sees that YOU actually have a say in whether or not this marriage continues and under what circumstances, I think he will be back-peddling in a hurry.
Please believe me that up till now, he BELIEVES that is up to HIM and HIM ALONE as to whether or not there is a marriage with you. CHANGE HIS PERCEPTION OF THAT!! Bring the affair into the light. If he is going to cheat on you and lie to the OW and to whoever else will listen, make him do it openly! Do not let him have the FUN of sneaking around and getting away with his entitled second life anymore. Make it be seen as the ugly, sordid adultery that it is.

I told my FWH that he forgot who I was and that he loved me.
He was blown away when he REMEMBERED. Blown away by the fact that I would actually KICK HIM OUT. I think your FWH has forgotten who you are. He honestly BELIEVES that you DO NOT KNOW what he is doing, that he is smarter than you, and that he is JUSTIFIED doing what he is doing. He is in the fog. Blow the fog horn, turn the lights on!!!

That said, please know that my heart is breaking for you.
I know how hard this is and I know how hard it is to do all these things because I have had to do them myself. But you have support here for WHATEVER you decide to do. Praying.

WH2LE

This was said so much better than I could have, but I wholeheartedly agree. Print it out and carry it with you; read it often; let it give you strength to stay mad at him. So many people here cave at the first sign of regret from their WS, and then lose any momentum, or chance to get it right. Stay strong. And indignant!

I too think WH2LE put it well.

I am so sorry there was a smoking gun. Yes, it was pretty evident there was a PA. But when he said he was 100% committed to your marriage, I had hoped he would give it up on his own. That even this visit might only be an hour, long enough to tell her so.

If it was that way to me, an outsider, I can only imagine what kind of hopes you may have had, even having all of the evidence from the past.

I can only say how sorry I am. Big hugs.

I definitely do have plans to confront him - I will not let this go indefinitely. I can't.

I do have some things that I need to do before I let him know that I know. I want to make sure that everything I can do to protect my finances is done. I'm planning to see a financial advisor next week to see if there's anything at all I can do about my 401K. I can deal with the other things, but my 401K is significant and his is not. I'd lose quite alot if we have to split that. Most of my balance was acquired during our M, so it would be considered marital assets.

He is going out of town next week for his first week of work at his new job. This will give me time to get my act together in his absence and then I can tell him what I know when he returns. I don't really want to confront him before he goes - for some reason that seems like a bad idea to me on many levels.

I have found out much more info today that there is even more deceit. There are more layers to this story than I could ever have imagined. I can't process it all. I don't think I can be prepared to confront him this weekend and do it the way that it needs to be done.

The idea of going straight to plan b is one I'm going to consider. It may be what I need to do to give this M a chance. Right now I'm not sure that I should have ever trusted him - even from the start.

Maybe if you posted the additional info we could help you process it.

Perhaps since you and WS had separate accounts for your IRA's, you might be able to keep yours if you can prove WS made the withdrawls on his. Also if you could prove that marital money has been spent on the A. I don't know what the laws are for your state.

Get your ducks lined up. All I can say is you have much more control than I did on DD, so to speak. Of course, I really had no clue.

((((((Hugs)))))KLD, you are truly being as wise as a snake and as innocent as a dove. Looks like you have a good PI. And of course we all know how painful this information has been for you. Anyway, I know you are hurting, and just want you to know you are WORTHY.

I don't know your whole story, only from this thread. You are one awesome and strong woman!! Sounds like you are keeping a healthy perspective on all of this.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

KLD, just wanted to pop in and give you hug. (((KLD)))

KLD,
I posted to you early in this thread on Gen Questions,
You have shown amazing self control and great planning. I at first wanted to encourage you to expose more quickly with the evidence you had at hand. Then I realized from some of your statements that you knew your H and that you intuitively knew that you needed better evidence. I will be thinking of you and I encourage you to continue to secure your finances. Consider interviewing another attorney even though the first one seemed to be willing to work for you. It does not hurt to get another opinion. Maybe your financial planner could suggest another attorney. Also, women's advocacy groups sometimes have good lists of killer attorneys.

My best to you.

KLD,
I am asking this only because if I was sitting face to face with you it would seem the next logical question in the conversation.(And it would be SO nice to be able to support you over a nice cup of Earl Gray instead of via a computer screen!!) Why do you think it would be wrong on several levels to wait till after his trip for his new job? I agree with lake53 that your knowledge of your H and your intuition is absolutely the best thing to go with. My ONLY concern is that without HIM knowing that YOU know, the A certainly continues unabated and you deal with knowing ABSOLUTELY that they are in contact, hence building more and deeper resentment within you. This DOES make it harder to begin recovery.

I wonder if in your state there is a provision for legal annulment in a case like yours. The condition might be considered fraud. I am thinking of your statement about wondering if you should have ever married him.

Also, remember that if you get a divorce(vs. dissolution), you will have MANY grounds and that those will conribute to your getting the fair deal financially. Please take all the advice given by lake regarding talking to attornies. I have seen many women who "just want to get it over with" and make serious mistakes regarding lawyers.

And last but not least, there are wonderful success stories on this forum about recovered marriages. Some of those couples were in the most terrible of straits and somehow managed to achieve what we all want. I am still praying that for you. PLEASE take care of yourself. Don't forget to eat. Call your friends and don't worry about being a burden to them. I am sure that you have carried a few burdens for them before and they are happy to help you carry yours.

Praying,
WH2LE

The current affair with OW#1 has been going on for possibly as long as 4-5 years. He has a key to her house and comes and goes like he does in our home. He plays with her young daughter in the yard like he would with a child we had (if we had any).

Today a piece of mail came to him containing very explicit sexual content. So, apparently he is involved in porn. I knew he had been calling sex lines, but it must go deeper if he's receiving mail at home.

There is possibly a third OW.

I realize that others have recovered from terrible situations that are probably more difficult than mine. I know his personality is that he runs from difficulties and in the past has been willing to give up rather than work for something he may want. I have serious doubts that he will be willing to work toward recovery because he won't be willing to be transparent and put forth the effort.

I do feel I need to wait for confrontation until I've got a handle on my finances. I'm the one who has been steady and stable in saving for retirement. I'm willing to stand the stress for a while longer to ensure I do all I can to protect what I've worked so hard for.

I do plan to give him the opportunity to choose our M, but before I share my info I want to be prepared in case he decides to walk.

Since this has been going on so long, I doubt that another week or 2 of involvement will make that much difference. My resentment is pretty high now and has been growing quickly before I even knew of the A. I think that making sure I'm protected as much as I can be will help rather than hurt.

Thanks so much to each of you for your advice, hugs, prayers, and good thoughts. It means more than I can say. I do take your posts to heart and each of you has given me so much to think about and consider.

It seems as if I'm fence sitting, but I'm getting closer to being able to move forward with a plan to tell him what I know and give him his options.

WH2LE - The main reasons I feel it would be best to wait until after his trip next week to confront him are:

1. I think I need the time to finish up my preparations.
2. I need the time to be alone and be sure of how I want to handle the confrontation.
3. I want him to be able to have a good start to this job. This may seem strange, but I don't wish him even more trouble in his career.
4. I want the Lexapro I started last week to have a good chance to get into my system so I'm as emotionally stable as possible so I don't screw it up by getting too upset to handle it the way I want. I have a history of getting upset and not saying what I want to say the way I want to say it.
5. I don't want to have a confrontation before he leaves town for a week. His past behavior says that he disconnects even more from me and connects more with her when he has had issues with me. If there's any chance for our survival, this doesn't seem to be a good move.

Thanks for questioning me on this. I needed to verbalize my thoughts.

I'm in counseling and I know I'll get these things worked out in my mind eventually, but I wonder what some of you have to say about these things.

I feel like a huge fool. I know that people I've met must know that he's been screwing around on me for years. I am embarrassed about his decision to cheat on me.

I know enough about OW to know that she is basically a loser and almost completely opposite of me in most every way. I hope I don't offend anyone when I state these things... Lives in a trailer next to a landfill, never married the father of her kids, very ordinary looking and not stylish , not educated, no job, allows him to stay at her house with her kids there. I've heard her speak before and she uses terrible grammar. She's basically a redneck. Why would he get involved with someone like her?

YOU ARE NOT A FOOL!!!! You are a loving, trusting, capable woman who has done EVERYTHING right!!! Look in the mirror and tell yourself that right now.

HE is the fool.
He is a serial cheater. There are many people on here who have been involved with serial cheaters and can give you excellent advice. if he is truly a serial cheater then he is a very accomplished liar. It is basically WHAT he DOES. Lies. His whole life is based on it.

Keep doing what you are doing. You are fabulous and strong!!!

Praying
WH2LE

hi kld,

please do not think that you are a fool. how could you have known? you have been standing by this guys side, living up to the vows you and he made. he is the one who is a fool .... i could write something else but it would only be a dj

as to why he would be involved with this ow. is there any chance the kid is his? could that be the hold she has?

i am feeling your strength in your post's today. i am happy that you are doing so well but please take care of yourself and get your rest and eat so you do not get sick. you amaze me with your ability to handle this as you are doing.

since you are planning for the future ... are there any items of value you have that you might want to put out of sight? i am thinking of small stuff such as crystal, coin collections, art pieces - something that if it were to disappear he might not notice? reason i am suggesting this is cuz my sis had some antique crystal wine glasses a dear friend of our grandmother's had given to her. when she split up with her ex he had along the way taken them and she did not realize it until much later ..... and he never would give them back to her just for spite. look around and maybe put some stuff in storage.

do you think he will put up a big fight if you go the d route? i think it would be wise to consult another attorney just to get another perspective on the best way to protect yourself.

since it is tax time maybe you can get copies of his current 1099 and banking data. i always thought it is suggested to get copies of all his assets so he can not hide property if things get to court.

you are in my thoughts. wishing you continued strength and courage in the days ahead.

hugs ....

If you helped him pay for any of those "work" trips where he met with OW#1 (or #2? Losing track), I would start gathering receipts to ask for compensation. Or if you wrote a check for $xyz and have a copy (or bank record), demand that money back.

KLD,
Ditto on Valentine's advice. Also, have as clear a timeine as possible of his activites,both A and job related, as you can, to show the lawyer. It is evidence of his spending habits and use of marital assets to fund his secret life.

As for the OW. It is so common as to be universal that WS "trade down". My husband and I both have college degrees, own a home, have professional, public jobs(not much money though). The OW quit school in the 6th grade, lives with her son, doesn't speak English(really!!! and my FWH doesn't speak her language), did not marry the father of her first 2 sons(I suspect he was married too), had an affair with a married man that gave her a 3rd child, married a 3rd man who gave her a 4th child, divorced him( I think he abused her) and then cheated with my H.

My H said he felt like a hero to her(never mind that I told him ALL the time how much I admired him and that he was MY hero!). Sigh! It seems to be the way with WHs.

How are you today? I am praying for clarity of mind and spirit for you. You have a difficult and tumultuous situation and you are not alone.

WH2LE

Thank you guys so much for lifting me up again. I feel so violated and used and well... I know you all know exactly how I feel. I'm so sorry you feel this way, too, because it truly bites.

I'm so glad to know that my WH isn't the only one who would choose to "trade down." I'm no beauty queen, but I'm not a bad looking woman, really. I definitely look better now than when we got married. I also know that looks aren't usually the biggest deal, but I'm a nice person, too. He used to think I was so funny until he started hanging out with her. I don't understand how I went from being so great to so sucky...

I'm having good moments and difficult ones today. He came home today and should be there when I get home from work. He called to let me know he was driving home and I had a very hard time being decent to him. The PI called about 2 hours before he did to tell me she had more video of him leaving her house this morning with her and them having breakfast together.

I talked to another lawyer today on the phone. I have a meeting with him on Monday. I felt more comfortable with his approach than the other 2 I spoke to. He advised me to wait to confront WH until I meet with him. He told me that from a legal standpoint that he could advise me on how to do that even if my goal was to save the M. He also told me that he could help advise me on steps to take for staying M or for going for D. He told me that he had often worked with people to stay M and that was so different than the other 2 I spoke with. He was familiar with MB and said he supports the principles.

Also, I made an appt with my GYN to go through STD testing. I'm so hurt that my WH has put me in a position to have to do this. I felt pretty down after I made that appointment.

I'm also thinking about mrs_n's suggestion to put some of my valuable things away in a safe place. I don't think he would take them, but I thought he wouldn't screw other women, either. If we do work things out, I can bring the things back home - no harm done.

Jeez, I hate this.

{{{KLD}}}

hey hon, of course you hate this. but you have to protect yourself. again i am so inspired by your strength you have found in not letting him know that you know. i have done that on am much smaller scale than what you are experiencing and it was draining.

plan for the best but prepare so the worst. since you have been so c,c & c thus far you can continue to be best prepared for many scenarios. if it comes to splitting up we can never know weird things might get.

i broke up with a guy years ago. i had bought a set of antique asian stack tables - because HE liked them. he was out of work so i paid for them. they were not a gift. when we were breaking up we fought like insane animals over these stupid tables. i had taken them to my mom's because they were becoming a topic of conflict. at the time i was so glad because as nasty as we both became he would have ended up with them.

they are still at my mom's cuz i really did not care so much about the tables but in the depths of all the hurt and fighting i did at the time.

this guy was a long distance lover who i learned had a live in love in his own home!!! no wonder he never wanted me to travel to his house - we always met in my state or some romantic place on the road.

i like what the recent lawyer seemed to present. it is so good that you continued looking for the best fit.

i was thinking about the std issues. isn't this just too much to get your head around??? i felt the same way with long distance guy. how arrogant and reckless of them to put another they claim to care about in a position like this.

think of yourself as the best award winning actress and go into acting mode when he gets home this evening. at this point you can only benefit your self
as you continue to position your self.

could you plan a trip to visit a friend or parent's over the weekend? this way you do not have to look at him or be around him. even if you tell him you are going to visit someone you could always just check into a nice hotel near by and have some quiet time and room service for yourself.

you are amazing. wishing you all the best.

hugs ....

Wow, KLD, your strength and proactiveness really amaze me. Thank you so much for taking care of yourself in these ways.

(((KLD)))

Well, I didn't do so well tonight when I saw WH. If he had called today like he said he would, I think I would have been able to hold it together. He didn't call to let me know what he was doing and that just made me so mad. I can't explain why, because I knew for sure he was lying about the whole deal. It brought back such vivid bad memories from the summer when he would disappear and not make contact with me.

I told him I was upset about that and he gave the big lie that he didn't have a signal way out in the plant he was working in. I knew he was with OW almost the whole day. I couldn't hold back the emotion. I told him how much this reminded me of previous events and I didn't like it that he got so defensive instead of understanding the triggers to the other fairly recent events. He said he understands but that I need to get past all that. I reminded him that he told me last week that he values our M and this didn't make me feel like his actions matched his words. He said he thought he'd been doing everything I wanted him to do and that he was being a great H to me. I was almost speechless when he came out with that.

I didn't let him know that I know anything else - I probably screwed up for getting upset at all, but I also finally just said I must have blown this out of proportion based on my insecurities from his previous behavior. This may have tipped him off that I'm on to at least something, but maybe not. I only have a few more days to get through so maybe it will be okay. I definitely want to confront him next weekend.

I actually gave him the perfect opportunity to come clean and he didn't take that chance he was offered. I couldn't believe he looked me straight in the eyes and lied. I felt like I have zero value to him. I asked him if he truly wants the M and he said he absolutely does. I don't get it.

KLD,
Mr. Wondering posted this on eyeofthestorm's thread at the top of this forum(GQII). Thought it sounded like information that you could use!


"Mr. Wondering

p.s.- In Michigan and many states money spent (or debt incurred) by a spouse in furtherance of adultery is often held specifically against such spouses property award...even if the law doesn't say so specifically. The judge just weighes it into his/her calculations. "


Thank you Mr. Wondering, I hope you don't mind the quote.

Praying,
WH2LE

Thanks, WH2LE. I'm going to try to get as much of that as I can. I hope I can find all his bank records next week when he is gone. I'm not above having my lawyer get a subpeona (sp?) and a forensic accountant at this point. We don't have tons of money and I actually imagine my lawyer will tell me it's not worth the effort, but I can at least try to get the documents and then fantasize....

KLD,
We must have been posting at the same time. I am so sorry to read about your WH's behavior and blatant lying. You did GREAT!! Please believe that he has no idea that you know anything at all. He is so deep in the fog of his deception that he thinks he is the Master of his Universe. Able to satisfy mutiple women and keep it all running smoothly. He believes his own lies. Gag! He is in for the shock of his life in about a week.

I am even wondering if OW realizes that he is actually married to you still. Nothing would surprise me and unfortunately I think nothing would surprise you.

I am so sorry for your pain. I wish there were better words to express the feeling of empathy I am having for you.

Praying,
WH2LE

You were so brave. So much more so than I could have been.
Will it help you to deal with him to keep reminding yourself that this isn't the man you fell in love with? It's a man in a fog, a high? I kind of equate it with one of those movies where a guy is possessed by some alien and he sees himself moving and doing things the alien wants, but can do nothing about it.

hi k,

i actually think you did GREAT!! it probably made him feel even more smug and great in that he is doing such a fantastic job getting away with his crap.

since you had this little tiff perhaps you can use it to explain your *mood* over the w/e if you have trouble being around him. you can use the *oh, it is just me darling, nothing you did .... i know you have been trying SO HARD to do every thing i want .... mmmm maybe it's just hormones* - 'nother gag!

this would be a great time to use that pathetic excuse we women often get tossed in our face when we are having a bad day

just remember - YOU ARE AMAZING! YOU ARE STRONG AND BEAUTIFUL!

WH2LE, Cat, mrs_n, EO -

Your support and words of encouragement amaze me and I'm so thankful for each of you. I was feeling like I absolutely blew it last night by allowing myself to get so emotional. I allowed him to see that I'm still so hurt by his previous actions and that has been one of his gripes about me - that I can't get past stuff and move on. What I can't get him to understand is that not dealing with it and just moving on doesn't make me feel like we're past it. He is expecting me to do something he wouldn't do - because he is an alien inhabiting the body of the man I married.

I woke up this morning with the thought that it really doesn't matter if he stays mad at me or not right now. He's going to be so mad when I let him know that I know that this anger will seem like butterfly kisses.

I have made the decision (right or wrong) to not present him with a loving invitation letter as suggested by Jennifer. He has had 2 opportunities in comfortable situations to come clean and he chose to continue the lies and then go spend 3 days with his OW. I could not give him a letter such as this with a loving and sincere heart at this time and I'm not going to be deceitful even if my motivation would be completely opposite of his motivation for his own deceit.

I will confront him with what I know based on the advice I get from my lawyer next week.

KLD, thanks for the update. I am so glad that you have friends here to talk to in such a tough time.

I can totally understand why you feel like an invitation is not the attractive option that it was. I am glad that you found out so much now, because I see folks on the In Recovery board who find things in dribs and drabs and it sounds so painful, that way, too. I am glad that you were able to find the information that you needed now when you need it, so you can protect yourself financially.

I know it would've been even better to know last year, but I do think that sometimes there are reasons that we don't know about for the timing. Maybe it will become more clear to you with time why it was right to know now.

((((KLD))))

KLD,
It probably works to your benefit that he thinks you're just being your "emotional" self and are unable to "let go of the past". This way you KNOW that he has no idea what you are doing. It is going to make your exposure to him VERY effective.

Also, please understand that it really is NOT one of his gripes that you can't "let go". That's gaslighting . He is trying to make you feel like you are crazy for doubting him. That way he can continue to play the cheating game without unnecessary interference by you. He DOESN'T want you to just move on. That is merely a smokescreen. He just doesn't want you to TALK about it. He has things to do and women to see and he wishes you would just get out of his way and stop trying to bring him down. He is probably amazed at himself that he is so able to control his situation. But YOU know that he is in control of NOTHING. You know his story, his game and are going to make the next moves. We all hope of course that the alien will immediately leave his body at that point and that there will be a chance for recovery.

Everything that everyone is telling you is true. You are brave and strong and in the end you will be OK. My prayer is that he will be Ok too.

Praying,

WH2LE

Awwww...poor baby! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good to hear you've reached that point. It is important and healthy. One thing this made me think of, though. I think it would help you to practice the disclosure ahead of time, with someone's help, if possible. I've found that when one has already run through all the possible scenarios in a bad situation, they're less likely to be 'knocked down' or to lose control of the situation. You know he'll be shocked, but what will he do then? He may break down and cry, he may lie, he may try to turn it back on you, he may try to candycoat it, and he will most surely try to make you think that it's not as bad as you say it is, all forms of a sick self-preservation. So practicing what you'd say in each of these situations will help you not flounder when it happens, and you need to be as calm and strong as possible. Please consider it.

My acting skills are flagging a little tonight. I'm so down about it all. I know I'm doing the right thing and today I took some steps toward protecting myself further. I got a safety deposit box to keep my evidence and stash some cash in.

Last night he was mad at me, so there was no big deal about affection or anything. I took an Ambien at 9PM, said I was tired and went to bed.

My PI told me today that under no circumstances am I to have sex with him because under GA law that would count as forgiveness. Also, I definitely am not interested in that again until we're in recovery and both have clean health records.

He had been in the shower when I got home from work and stood there naked to talk to me - I couldn't look at his naked body. He tried to give me a passionate kiss when we were leaving to go out for dinner and I felt so repulsed. Just knowing that he has done these same things - and so very recently - with OW just really affected me more than I expected.

Cat - great idea to practice what I'll say to him along with options for possible responses from him. I have several friends who will be great at helping me do this. Thanks for the suggestion.

WH went out to get some dessert from the grocery (and of course to call his OW). While he was gone, I decided to check a computer bag he'd just started using again. In an obscure pocket I found OWs expired drivers license.

Why in the crap would he have that? I've sent her DL# to my PI to see if she can find anything else out about her.

I took the license and am trying to think of a place to hide it until I can get it put into my safe deposit box. It may be a bad idea to keep it... what do you guys think about that? Is the number all I really need and the fact that I found it in his stuff good enough?

KLD,
He probably has her license just to keep a picture of her.

I'm not sure it would be wise to keep it. How about making a color copy of it,front and back? Put the date, time and place you found it on the copy page.

Also, if it is gone for any amount of time, he might get suspicous that you know something.

Praying for you,
WH2LE

Yeah, I'd copy it, too, and put it back. And keep snooping.

I should probably add this to the 'spying 101' thread. Probably the most useful tool I used was a combination printer/scanner/copier connected to my home PC. I was able to make copies of countless things, at home. So in your case, you might have made a copy of the license and returned it where you found it. This leaves you with the 'problem' of concealing the paper copies. One easy place to hide paper is with other papers, such as in a filing cabinet or a drawer with a stack of other (normal) papers. However, you might forget something there before you have a chance to put in long-term storage (i.e., a safe deposit box). You might consider looking for a spot to hide papers long term in the house or car. To get you started with ideas, think under a big piece of furniture that hasn't moved in a year, under the 'carpeting' in the trunk of a car, in the box of christmas decorations, ....

- WG

I'm going to get a copy made of it and put it back as quickly as I can. I'll have to do it today, though. I have a safe deposit box that I'm keeping things in.

My PI said that having the number doesn't really help that much because all we'd get is if she has any tickets, etc and that won't help in a D case. She said the only thing I could possibly get is the satisfaction that this person is an even bigger loser if soemthing big showed up. Probably not worth the hours and travel $$ for her to drive 4 hours down and back to the county OW lives in to get the info.

I think having the license is another nail in his coffin, though. Maybe I'm just looking at anything as an advantage, though.

You know what a good thing to do this weekend would be?

Tell your hubby you've just been feeling some wear and tear on life, and you'd like to get away by yourself for the weekend - go to a resort - even a Bed and Breakfast will do - do some sight-seeing, get a massage, relax - do not turn on the tv - take your ipod and listen to some great music with no lyrics, read a great fiction book, or a biography, just so long as you do something that you haven't done before. If you don't feel like eating, just pick the most sumptuous dessert and have that. Take the whole time you would have to be around him or answering his questions - trying to Plan A when you are on the verge of breaking down.

Then come back ready to do whatever your lawyer tells you to do - and do it quickly so you can get this exposure part handled.

For real?

Fascinating information.

KLD,

I had a couple of thoughts for you. You say that your PI does NOT find a car registered to her. How about another car registered to your husband???

And also that there does not seem to be a current drivers' license registered to the OW? And YET, she drives!! That seems to me to be illegal in ANY state. Maybe at SOME point, the police might act on an anonymous tip with that information.( I don't know, sounds a bit vindictive as I write it. Still....)

Ditto on KaylaAndy's idea.

PLEASE take care of yourself

Praying,
WH2LE

Absolutely, we have the same law here. If you live in a state where only fault divorce is allowed then you have to provide grounds. Adultery is grounds but only if you did not have sex with the WS after discovery. Otherwise WS can contest the grounds on the basis that he/she was forgiven.

Of course, WS might back off when you tell them that the OP will be deposed in the courtroom . .

KLD,
Might it be possible that she is using your H's last name even if they are NOT married? Maybe one more way of finding information.

How are you?

WH2LE

hi kld,

i just wanted to check up on you to see how you are holding up.

you are in my thoughts. i know you have the strength to get thru these darkest days and will find your way to the happiness you deserve.

gentle hugs ...

I'm having my PI do a check to see if there is another car registered to my WH in her county. I never thought that she might be using our last name. I'll check into that, too. Thanks for that.

I'm having a rough time and this weekend has seemed worse than I'd expected. WH was more affectionate than usual and suggested we go to a movie. We were too late for the movie we wanted to see so just walked around the mall instead. He kept wanting to hold my hand, etc. and that just really affected me. I found that I couldn't even walk with my head held up and that I was sinking lower and lower.

I decided I had to tell him something because he did notice. I told him that I had been depressed and very stressed out - gave him a list of concerns that had just become difficult to bear (some true, some not). I told him I didn't want to burden him with it so I went to my doctor and got some drugs to help me cope. He was understanding and seemed to buy into what I told him. He asked me if I was in counseling and I told him yes. All he really wanted to know about that was if it was the same one I'd seen before and when I said no he asked if I liked this one. Then he asked if I thought the counseling was going to help.

He did say that he felt like he had caused some of my stress and he was sorry for that. I went to bed then and today there's been no discussion at all about anything important.

Since he will be gone all week long, I know my week will be much better. I'll be able to focus on how I'm going to confront him and once that is done I know I'll be better and more able to get myself together.

Well, WH didn't go out of town this week as planned. Said he didn't feel well yesterday when he was supposed to get up to get ready to go so he came back to bed. I had appointments yestrday and didn't talk to him all day so I didn't know what he'd worked out. He said his new boss said no big deal and that maybe he could come to Denver later in the week or they'd work something else out.

So, he has another week to jack around doing whatever he wants to do which is normally text and talk to OW1 and OW 2 all day long. That's what phone records show for yesterday, anyway.

I believe that if he says he's going to Denver after all, he'll actually go see her. I'm going to have my PI follow him if I don't get an itinerary for the Denver flight. I may not need any more ammo against him, but every time I turn around there's more crap. My attorney said that the more info I get the more leverage I will have in a settlement if it comes to that.

I found where he paid an insurance company money on Friday. We don't use this company and our insurance isn't due until May. He must be paying her insurance, now, too. There's an account number, so I'm going to call and see if I can find anything out.

I'm actually so disappointed that he will be home this week. I had plans to turn the house upside-down to find anything else I could. I won't be able to do that now.

He knew I was feeling low again last night, so he got me my favorite ice cream as a surprise. What a jerk!!!! LOL. I guess victoria's secret makes the OW feel better.... so that's what she gets.

Verified the insurance account is in OW name. The CS agent probably told me too much, but at least I know that he is paying that bill for her. I'd wondered if she was on public assistance because I definitely don't think she works, but why would she need to be when WH pays her bills out of our household money?

I'm so sorry. That's got to be horrible. I just can't imagine.

Thanks, Cat. I feel like such a fool. I know I shouldn't feel that way, but I know the signs were there and I chose to ask WH and believe his lies. Not that I deserve this, but still... Why didn't I act sooner? I really thought he just needed some help.

Now I've got to figure out how to confront him and do it the way that I'm protected legally. I practiced with my friend over dinner last night, but I still need to work on it. I also can't do it until I find out where more of the $$ has gone. The more I can find out on my own, the lower my lawyer bill will be.

Arrrgggh! Why do we do that? Blame ourselves for something the other person chose to do? Honey, you are taking the high road. Be proud of yourself. Half the people I know would be beating on their husbands in your shoes, or tearing up his stuff, or selling it, or making fools of themselves. I'm incredibly impressed by you.

My lawyer was surprised yesterday that I wasn't ranting and raving. I've been pretty much under control except there are times when I get very emotional. And right now, I'm very low with no motivation. I have my counseling session today so maybe they will consider changing my medicine or at least the dosage. I know i've only been on it for 2 weeks, but I seem to be getting worse instead of better.

If I could take time off work to just be alone at home for a few days, I'd do that. I wouldn't be alone, though, because WH is there. I don't think I could take being thee with him right now. The weekend was difficult enough! If he ends up going away at the end of the week, I may take some time off work then.

P.S. I did dream I sold his wedding band last night....

Hee. And used the money to pay for a 2-week cruise for yourself!

KLD,

And right now, I'm very low with no motivation.

I have been following your posts and biting my tongue, waiting for you to confront your WH.

But you keep needing to do this, and then do that, and gather some more info, and check on her car in another county,and wait until you see your (3rd?) attorney. And now your blue with no energy.

In my humble opinion, the longer you are with him, knowing what a low life he is, acting like nothing is wrong, smiling and holding hands with him while all the time KNOWING WHERE HE HAS BEEN AND WHERE HE WILL BE GOING, the more this is eating you up and dragging you down.

Of course you are very low with no motivation!! What you need is a good CONFRONTATION with your cheating, two faced husband. Get it out in the open and go down what ever path you need to go.

Get some anger and indignation boiling in your vitals. YOU DESERVE SOOOO MUCH BETTER THAN THIS!!

HOW DARE HE TREAT YOU THIS WAY!!

kirk

{{{{{ KLD }}}}}

So do you have a plan to confront and expose? Yes, it will feel better to actually do something, to take charge of the situation instead of waiting for things to happen.

KLD,
I am wondering if your husband REALLY has another job, the new one. It seems there is always something that is keeping him from working.

Is he actually having contact with BOTH OW#1 and OW#2 at the same time? Do you suppose THEY know about each other? If you are looking for someone to expose to, it would certainly be THOSE 2(to each other ABOUT each other).

KLD, I completely understand that you want to protect yourself legally, BUT.... You need to see that you are not going to be able to completely cover ALL the bases here. You already have so much more information than most BSs do when they confront. You will still be able to gather info AFTER you confront your WH. You will have time to continue to protect yourself if necessary AND most importantly, you need to stop him NOW from using any more marital assets to further his adultery(s). I can imagine the possibility that IF there is a D, that a shrewd attorney for your H might try to find fault with your waiting so long to confront after you were certain.(God forbid of course, but that's what lawyers are paid to do.)

Realistically, if there is to be any hope of recovery, you have to confront BEFORE you know everything so that there is at least a shred of feeling left for your husband.

The longer you wait, the more information you get and the more you SEE him lying the more you are losing any tiny bit of hope and rspect you might have had.

I am hoping you will confront him in the next day or so. Then his lies will be exposed and you can see more clearly what is going to happen and whether or not you WANT to try to recover your marriage. And this WILL be the most painful thing you have ever experienced. In retrospect, confronting my WH was actually as painful as telling my 2 then small children that my husband(now X) and I were going to seperate. It physically hurt. BUT....I lived through both those things and so will you. We will help you.

I am going to tell you the best piece of advice I was given in the early hours of D-Day. I had called one of my best friends who in turn called a mutual acquaintance who had been through her husband's A. She sent me a text that said, "Stand your ground. BE mad." And I did and I WAS.
If I had attempted to be calm, or understanding or logical or rational and if had avoided LBs, I WOULD NOT BE MARRIED!!! I would have lost some of the wonderful times my FWH and I have had since D-Day and ALL hope of complete recovery. My husband would have walked all over me, showing me the same disrespect and disregard that he had been showing me for over a year. I have ABSOLUTELY no doubt about this. My husband needed to see my anger and contempt for what he had done to me and to understand that as far as I was concerned he could jump off a cliff. And KLD, I believe your H is the same way. Not every wayward spouse will respond to this but there are some who will not get it any other way.

He is doing what he is doing now becasue he has NO regard for your feelings, your life, your devotion to him or your marriage. He is in every sense, a foggy wayward. WAKE HIM UP!! TURN THE LIGHTS ON!!!

Praying intensely for you. I promise.

WH2LE

KLD, wanted to send some prayers and hugs your way. ((((KLD)))

KLD, I don't believe I have ever seen a BS exhibit as much restraint as you have. This philanderer is a piece of work! I think you have enough to confront and cop an attitude just with his paying the OW's insurance. Just decide on a few little pieces of unrefutable evidence and kick him to the curb. Cry and carry on and leave him lying his hiney off, just tell him you need space. He's gonna grovel and try to get you to believe him, but in the mean time you can continue your accounting forensics to determine how deep this goes. You don't need the whole enchilada to confront him. He's already draining your emotions dry. I confronted with a phone number, a zabasearch and the length of the phone call.
It got worse as I dug my heels in...You have to get yourself out from under this weight....just don't spill your guts just yet...just get him out and play his game til you are ready to expose all you know to him..Then decide if R is possible. Praying for you GF

I hadn't thought of it before, and I'm not in y'all's position, but I have to agree with whknghrd. Like I said before, be mad! Stand your ground! I've seen way too many cases here of women who 'love' their husbands so much that they're willing to back down on what THEY want, to make sure the H doesn't back down and leave them. Be mad!

Cat is right on, you have to get very angry. You have to stand up for yourself. He isn't going to do it for you.
GF

Kirk - thanks for the kick in the rear. I do need to stop procrastinating and having excuses for not confronting him.

I am so angry I can't see straight when I'm away from him. When I'm with him I really just don't feel much at all. I have pushed these feelings aside for so long that it's normal to me now. During the past year everything I said to him that in any way was a suggestion about something he should do or any show of dissatisfaction on my part was a huge LB for him. I was bossy and never happy. So, I stopped saying much at all about anything important.

The confrontation does have to be done soon. I realize that. I have a very loose plan for how to confront him, but it changes all the time. I just don't know the best way to do it. My lawyer (the last one I saw who I will hire if I need to) said that the less info I give him the better I will be. So, I don't have to tell him I have all I have.

I do know he does have this new job - I've seen the email with the offer letter and other correspondence from his new boss. He doesn't know I've seen it - it's in his email that he forgot I have the password for and doesn't know I've been checking it.

At this point, if D ends up the way I go his spotty work history this past year will help me.

I do believe that if I tell him I'm willing to work things out in our M, he will decline. I don't believe he will be willing to be transparent and do the things that will be required for this M to be recovered. Obviously, I won't know until I confront him, though.

My counselor yesterday walked me through how I can use my anger to my advantage for motivation and guts. He asked me what will happen next if WH decides he wants to stay in the M. I said that I'd have a list of requirements that WH will have to meet. My C said that this will be exhausting for me and that it will set my WH up to fail. He said we'd need to work out another way rather than having me be the "border patrol." We didn't get into other options for this yet, but I'm interested in hearing points of view on this from those of you who have experience here. It may not really matter because he most likely will be happy to be gone, but if he does decide to work on it how do I handle that part.

Also - exposure. There's not really anyone who has much influence over him. Do I still expose to his family even if he probably won't listen to them and even if they will likely take his side?

I will definitely expose OW#1 and OW#2 to each other. That will be easy to do.

But, if it just works out that D is my best option (or he decides that's what he wants) do I still expose? Does it just turn into revenge at that point?

KLD, I agree with the others, it is time to move forward and confront him. Putting this off only leaves your life in a state of limbo. The longer you wait, the farther you are from any hope of a solution. AS it is right now, YOU are leading a secret second life the same as him. You have 10X more information than the average BS requires to confront his/her spouse.

Launch the nuke, KLD, there is no reason to put this off any longer. We will be here to help you.

Don't do things out of revenge, do them because they are RIGHT. It is the RIGHT THING to do to tell the truth about your H to the other women. It helps NO ONE, especially your wayward husband, to help him hide his secrets from his others.

KLD, launch the nuke!

Yes, still expose him to family. It is the only way that he will ever come to realize what he's done, because, whether they influence him or not, they will now forever be on the lookout for the poor behavior from him and will call him on it the next time he does it. Consider it your last gift to him - his last possibility for learning from his mistakes(unless, of course, he decides to stay, in which case your last gift will be forgiving him).

I agree with not waiting. You waiting so that he can do good at his new job is admirable, but it's enabling and it's detrimental to YOU; and at this point, you have to start thinking of yourself first. If he messes up at this new job, well tough; he should have controlled himself.

Like we said, stay mad!

KLD, you know how awful we all feel for you. I can't stop thinking this is one cold-hearted fish. And every time he tries to be romantic, I'm right there with you -- disgusted.

But one thing your story has done for us -- it shows us the danger of privacy. It is apparent the two of you handle money from separate accounts, handle cell phones separately, don't have good access to where the other one has been on the computer, don't have shared passwords for accounts, etc., etc. The stunner for me was when you were not given a key to his vehicle. Regardless of whether or not you are driving it, a spouse needs a key.

I'm lucky that my husband and I have been very open about accounts and passwords, etc., but we have one struggle ahead of us. Joint bank accounts. I've been on my own since 18. Had a joint account once; it was a disaster. But I'm married now, and no matter how much it scares me, we need to start moving in the direction of making how we spend our money available to each other. We are fairly open now, but there have been hidden expenditures. (In my case, I hide when I pay late fees so I won't get in trouble.) These hidden expenditures could leave an opening for either one of us to have a secret life.

Thank you for giving us an example of how 'privacy' can harm us, leave us vulnerable to affairs. How important it is for us to move forward on transparency, even if we are certain our spouse will balk, even if we believe we have a right to privacy. Marriage and 'privacy' just don't mix.

One thing, KLD, when you said he would not be willing to be transparent in order to recover, I believe you are right. But if he wants the marriage, I believe that he will change his mind. For one thing, you will be at high risk for a revenge-affair for a very long time after this. You could point out the benefit of transparency; how it works both ways. You could rightly point out that the ONLY way you could even BEGIN to think about trusting him was if he was completely transparent, and that you WILL be checking records for a very long time.

I don't think you realize yet that you do hold all the cards. He stayed with you for a reason. He fundamentally wants to be with YOU no matter what he said. You are his wife. You are his homebase. Respond from a place of STRENGTH and CONFIDENCE. Realize and focus on the fact that he is LUCKY to have you. Look at yourself. It is so apparent that you have a LOT to offer a man!

Now if he does leave and go with Ow, then she had his heart all along. That relationship would be doomed! They will be so miserable, not trusting each other. And you could go on to a beautiful life with a brilliant man who truly appreciates you!

Either way, YOU WIN.

(((Big hugs.)))

KLD,
I fear that I am going to say somethings here that may sound...well...mean. Please believe that is not my intention at all. My heart is breaking for you and I do not wnat to be hurtful in ANY way.

I think you might consider getting rid of your C and finding a new one. This one seems to be counseling FOR divorce. Divorce is ABSOLUTELY your choice here if you want it, BUT when a C starts saying things like, "My C said that this will be exhausting for me and that it will set my WH up to fail. He said we'd need to work out another way rather than having me be the "border patrol", then he CLEARLY does not understand MB principles.

As the majority of posters on here point out, in the beginnings of recovery, the BS almost always carries the weight of recovering. The WS is often in the process of withdrawal and just can't figure out HOW to do it even if they WANT to. You are indeed going to be "border patrol" for a while, maybe a long while. You are indeed going to have to set up requirements, a high bar, that your husband is going to have to adhere to.

When I read that you are setting your husband up to "fail" the top of my head almost came off. YOUR HUSBAND HAS ALREADY FAILED AND YOU ARE TRYING TO FIND A WAY FOR HIM TO NOW BE SUCCESSFUL!!!!!!! This is the problem with most counselors today and WHY conventional MC does NOT work. They are all about the individual and the individual's "rights' and acceptance that "That is just the way he\she is. You can't expect more." Balogna!@!!!!!

As marriage partners we are in MANY ways responsible for and accountable TO each other. We can't make anyone change, but we CAN give them opportunity, we CAN help point them in the right direction and we CAN require that they STOP treating us badly. Is it EXHAUSTING??? Yes, especially at the beginning!! But not more exhausting than dealing with an A! And is it rewarding if it saves our marriages and we recover what we believe was once lost? Immeasurably so. I am begging you not to listen to this bit ofadvice from your C.

Stop looking for the exact right way to confront. Just do it. YOu have enough info to do it. It will be horrible. He will probably lie and say terrible things to you. Don't worry about being calm. We are all telling you the same thing. Be RIGHTEOUSLY angry!! He will be even angrier. DO IT ANYWAY!! As other posters say here also. Your marriage can survive his anger, but not his As. Maybe he won't want to work on the M, but he is certainly NOT working on it NOW. But at least he will know that his lying second life is at an end. Remind yourself of THAT. At the VERY LEAST, he will no longer have the titillating, sordid excitement of the secret second life. Take that away from him. It is not only your right, it is your obligation.

Take heart that you are not alone even though this feels lonely. We all know what you are going through and will continue to help and support you in our meager way.

And lastly, a scripture that has helped more times than I know,
"Have I not commanded you be strong and courageous. Do NOT be terrified, do NOT be discouraged for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you may go" Joshua 1:9

Praying
WH2LE

KDL,

Would it be more helpful to you if you had a friend w/ you when you confront him?

Maybe you could do that.

Also, you don't have to reveal the proof you have, just state the simple fact that you KNOW he's cheating on you. He will probably deny it, but it doesn't matter. YOU know the truth, and you are telling him you know it. Don't argue w/ him about whether it's true or not. There is no need to.

Mel is right, this has gone on long enough. Stop keeping his secrets for him. Tell him what you know and then tell him what you need him to do for you to recover the M.

If he is unwilling to come clean w/ you or agree w/ what you want, then it is time for Plan B.

You can do this.

~ Marsh

Valentine - I agree that I've allowed things to remain so separate in this M that it has bred the perfect environment for secrecy. I've learned a valuable lesson myself and I will not make the same mistake again - in the M I currently have if it survives or another if I end up meeting someone later.

I just talked to WH and he does have to go out of town this week after all. He is supposed to go to visit a plant north of us on Thursday and Friday. (OW lives south, thank goodness so no opportunity to stop by there). I was suspicious that a trip was truly in the works that it was a lie so he could go back to see his GF, but looked in his email and all the details from his new boss and the plant manager from the plant he is supposed to see was all there.

I have set a deadline for confronting him - I will do this by Sunday afternoon. I think the idea of having a third party there is a good one, but I think that would make him even more uncomfortable than he's going to be. I'm not afraid for my safety at all, so I will do this alone. I'm going to record the conversation.

WH2LE - thanks for the scripture. It made me feel stronger just reading it. I'm going to remember it often over the next days, weeks, and months. You make good points about the comments from my IC. I wondered about some of what he was saying, too, and I understand what you're saying. I'm so tired of carrying the torch, but if my M is going to make it I'm going to have to continue to take charge.

Melody Lane - you are right - along with all the others. I'll be planning my opener and the main points I want to make over the next few days.

KLD,
Oddly, you will feel a "little better" after you have confronted him. As Melody pointed out, YOU have a secret life right now too. When your secret is out, some of the burden will be lifted. And all the advice about keeping a lot of info to yourself is good. You will knowwhat to say and what not to. Whatever lies he may tell you, YOU know the truth.

Praying,
WH2LE

KLD,
It occurs to me that while we are all telling you to be mad and confront that it might make it look as though we think this will be "easy", especially if you stay mad. We all know better.

Just so you know that we KNOW, I will tell you how it was when I confronted my husband.

I woke up after 1 hour of sleep and was wide awake. I decided to look at my H's cell phone and found a text message to the OW that left no doubt in my mind any longer. I was in shock knowing that months of suspicions were correct and that my beloved had another woman in his life.

I went to the computer and after a few false starts, found Intellius and confirmed that the OWs number did NOT belong to the person my husband had told me it did several weeks earlier.

I went back to the bedroom, sat on the bed and woke him up, in the dark. I asked who the number belonged to and he lied, telling me the same name he had before.

I told him he was lying and asked again.

He asked me why and I told him he was lying and I wanted to know who it was. I did NOT tell him the name I had(it turned out to be the OWs son). Then I told him I had read the text message.

I was angry and sarcastic. I appeared to be only angry, but inside I was dying.

I felt as though I might actually stop breathing. But I kept on.

Eventually he admitted that it was a woman but that she was "just a friend". I just kept telling him that he was lying. He finally said that it was just emotional and fun and that he did not sleep with her. More lies.

And it just kept up like that, back and forth. with me getting louder and angrier and NOT letting him get away with the lying.

He was cold and mean and angry and hard.

I asked him if it was going to stop and he said no. It was all I could do to keep from hitting him. I kept thinking that we were leaving on a long-planned vacation in a week and what was I going to do now?

But to his eyes I was just ANGRY. I screamed at him and told him it was over. He said "Fine, it's over" and rolled over to go back to sleep. And he did go back to sleep!!!!

I said that I had to get away from him and that I was going to go drive. And I did. And he let me go in the state that I was in. At THAT moment I could not have believed that we would still be together 8 months later. It was the single worst moment of my life.

And I had to stay hard and angry to get the rest of the truth out of him. When I softened up, he took to lying or omitting again. It was HARD!!!

I tell you this not to get your sympathy but only so that you know we ALL understand because we have ALL(unfortunately) experienced it.

Do not try to guess his reaction. It will be what it will be.

We are all rooting for you.

Praying still.
WH2LE
P.S. Sorry my posts are so long. I never know when to shut up.

WH2LE - it helped so much to hear how your confrontation went with your H. I know you're right that I just have to do it and I shouldn't expect a certain reaction from him. I know I can't plan for every possible scenario.

I actually had an opportunity to tell him I knew last night but decided it was best to wait until the weekend when we'd have time. Also, he was leaving at 5AM for a trip for his new job and I know that he wouldn't have been receptive at all with timing like that. It wasn't so much that I was trying to be kind, I just know when he will be willing to talk and when he won't.

So, Saturday or Sunday is the day - depending on when the best time comes up. I'm determined because I must get this monkey off my back.

Sorry to warn about this but one more bit of research - check in the OW's counties to see if there are marriage licenses on file... This reeks of bigamy.

When I confronted my wife, I had cellphone records and some files and pictures (all deleted, BTW) from our computer. What I really had were paths and names of those things. She had deleted the files themselves and some were from CDs or her thumb drive and were therefor never actually on our hard drive. Before confronting her, I put it all together on a legal pad and built a sort of time line for the last couple of months. By the time I confronted her (since she was visiting her step mother who happened to live right next door to OM) I had even figured out what a couple of the pictures were and had copies of them printed out as well.

So I laid out this elaborate treatise around her calling him on the way home from work, then emailing him a picture an hour later and then calling him to be sure he got it at 10:30. I mapped out stories and poems she had written and some she had received from him and dumped it all out at once...What I really had was traces of things that happened. I really had no idea how any of it went down for sure. So I bluffed and she folded...

But I didn't have to prove to her that she was having an affair, because she already knew that. All I had to prove was that I knew she was having one.

Did she deny it? Well of course she did. They all do. Two days later she asked for a divorce. I told her we had plenty of time to get divorced but only a short time to make this work. She told me a couple days later she couldn't give him up. Next I heard that this had nothing to do with him. And eventually I heard that if I had been different she wouldn't have had to do this. In between was a lot of stuff about not being happy, never being happy, getting married too young and for the wrong reason and wanting to leave for years. I can pretty much recite the checklist they give.

That was May of 06 and we're currently trying to work out the details of purchasing a riding stable together...But just so you know, I'm still a bit skittish about it...(Oh look. I used a horse term. She'd be so proud. Naw, she wouldn't even notice.)

AGREE.

PI did check for marriage licenses and found nothing for OW. Also checked WH and found W#1 and me.

Thanks for sharing your confrontation story, Mark. It does help me to hear how others have approached this.

I have a loose timeline laid out, too, and I thought I might use some of that info. Since I don't know if this will end in D or not, I don't want to share everything I know just to prove I know it. I'm sure he will lie, so I do need to stand by my knowledge without giving away all my negotiating cards in case I need them.

One thing I'm going to need to be aware of is that I talk too much. I have a habit of asking a question and then continuing to talk. I need to ask the question and shut up for the answer. When I get really upset I ask a question, say what I think about that question, and then usually get annoyed that I don't get a concise answer. I'm getting better at this because I've been working on it, but I'm afraid that in a stressful situation like this will be I'll fall back to my old ways if I'm not very aware.

I'm determined because I must get this monkey off my back.

AWESOME <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

LAUNCH THE NUKES!!!

and then usually get annoyed that I don't get a concise answer.

Get ready then to be very annoyed, because I'm sure there will not BE any concise answers.

A lot of tap dancing, stuttering, and indignant boisterous denials, that you know are bull. Get ready for mis-directed anger back at you. Stay calm and collected.

I guess I don't understand what questions you are going to ask.

Not like "Are you having an affair? (or two?)"

But more like "I know you are having an affair!!! (or two!)

Stay strong!! You are in the right here, up on the high road.

kirk

Put a rubber band around your wrist or a string; rubber band is better, to remind you to be concise, because you can pop it and give yourself a little jolt to get back to your calm, sensible self.

I'm going to tell him I know about the A w/ OW#1 only at this time. I'm going to tell him a few of the details I'm aware of and keep as many details to myself as possible.

The questions I'm going to ask will come up as he denies and lies. I'm going to try not to ask too many why questions because I don't want to give him a chance to blame this all on me. If he does, though, I will be prepared to not take responsibility for his decisions. I think some of my questions will be about where we go from here.

I know I'm going to get very annoyed, but I'm going to try to operate from strength and not lose my temper if I can help it. When I raise my voice, he gets even more defensive and usually withdraws - a common reaction for many who are getting yelled at, really.

I honestly hope to be able to tell him I know, that what he is doing has made me extremely angry and unbearably hurt. I then plan to tell him that I love him and would like to recover our M but I will not be married to someone who is involved with other people in any way. Then, I hope I can ask him what he thinks should happen next. From there, it's anyone's guess what will come after that.

Why not tell him, "I want you to know that I know you are cheating on me. I also want you to know that I am not willing to stay in a M where there is ongoing unfaithfulness. Nor am I willing to be married to a man who is not honest and transparent w/ me. (Add whatever else you are unwilling to accept.)

And then wait.....









For as long as it takes for him to reply.

~ Marsh

Marsh, this is actually a good and simple approach that just may work with my WH. It also will probably be easier to deliver than trying to remember a bunch of details. I'll probably have a few of them to pull out because he will probably ask, but this should be doable for me. Thanks for the suggestion.

Be prepared with a plan for what happens if he IS willing to end the affair.

That he will need to contact the OW, via letter that you mail -- or by phone with you present. In other words, no mushy goodbyes and no more communication without your approval.

Be ready to seal off all his communication venues.
Be ready with a GPS tracker. Be ready to change phone numbers.

What else?

You're welcome.



Do not answer any of his "What proof do you have" questions. (Or any of his questions for that matter.)

If he goes there, simply tell him that you are not willing to discuss any proof that you have w/ him.

And then wait.....









For as long as it takes for him to reply.

There is only ONE subject you want to hear from him... What he is willing to do to stay married to you.

Stay focused on this ONLY.

Sit quiet and let him talk and talk.

If need be, let there be lots of awkward silence.

You stay quiet! VERY very quiet.

Let him talk.

If he tries to draw you into an argument or even into a discussion w/ him, simply say, "I would prefer to hear your thoughts at this time."

You can do this!

~ Marsh

KLD, and don't ask him if he is having an affair or ASK him any details. You KNOW the details and you know the truth. You don't need his admission to know the truth.

Marshmallow is right. My WH is the world's best liar and this is what I did too.

Sat him down. Looked him in the eye.

Told him I knew (no details) and waited

and waited

He knew I wasn't going to leave till it came out.

Funnily enough he was relieved afterwards. Obviously I got the edited version but he had been carrying this stuff around for so long that, even for him, it had become a burden.

What I said ....

"How long have you been screwing *her*?"

he did the WS usual "blah blah blah" song 'n dance

I repeated the same question until he answered

.....

don't say much yourself
be calm
do not raise your voice
do not cry

when he answers (if he does)

say

"Thanks for the honest answer, finally."

Then go for a walk or go to the gym or go to the park - alone

then you can cry and rant

then call a friend

let WH sit and stew and wonder "What is she doing????"

I never thought about leaving after getting an answer - if the truth actually comes. I tend to always hang in there to keep talking. A break would be a shock to him!

So what about next steps? Let's say the conversation ends with him admitting and I say thanks and leave. What comes next and when? Do I decide how long I'll wait to hear from him and then bring up next steps myself if he doesn't address it?

KLD,

LOVE Marshmallow's suggestion and and Pep's follow-up.

As for next steps, what do YOU want? If he flat-out lies or tells the truth but indicates he isn't stopping would you like to go right to Plan B? I think it's important to remember that you do NOT have to make a FINAL decision immediately about D or not or even Plan B unless the path is VERY clear for you to do that.

If you leave, stay away as long as YOU feel you need to. Maybe just a short time, maybe a few hours. I'm not sure I would expect to hear from him or even answer your phone if he calls it.

After I left the house and went for my drive and got home, my H was still sleeping/escaping. I called my 2 best friends who gave me courage and support and then I cleaned my kitchen, cleaned out the refrigerator and cleaned my oven. I was in classic shock.

Then I got dressed, make-up and all and went over to see one of those 2 friends. When I got home from her house, he was up and dressed and actually tried to pretend like none of it happened. He asked me(nicely) where I had been and I told him it was none of his business. I asked him what he thought he was doing. He stumbled around and I told him that I wanted EVERY detail(it took him a week to actually confess it ALL to me) and that if he wasn't going to give me what I wanted he could leave now.

I told him that what he had done had changed ALL the rules and that I didn't know how this was going to end up. I was scared **itless but I know he didn't think I was and he was stunned.

If you are going to stay and he indicates that he wants to that would be the time to tell him EXACTLY how it's going to be done(regarding NC letters and counseling etc.).

This attitude worked with my husband. He ABSOLUTELY would not have told the truth if I had been calm and not wanted to appear angry. He would have done ANYTHING to weasel out of it. He HAD to see me being cold, angry and not responding to his attempts to soften me up. I know that it is advised that we don't raise our voice and stay calm(and actually, one of my 2 friends told me that morning to do that) but I knew my husband and I know that he would have just been relieved that I wasn't going to cause a ruckus and he would have seen it as his way to act as though it wasn't so bad. He would have seen me as weak and meek and taken advantage of it just like he had for the previous year.

I may be wrong KLD, but your H appears to think you are weak. You are NOT of course, but he SEEMS to have this attitude. He sounds like a bully(which my husband is and he is coming to realize). Bullies look for any chinks in your armour and consider "niceness" when dealing with conflict as "weak". It is laughable that my H thought I was weak. He had to see that I was not.

Be strong and made as he!!.

Sending good thoughts and prayers your way.
WH2LE

Plan what you say - and only say what you plan - then, shut up and OBSERVE him - do not help him come up with answers


I know what I would do - but you are not me.
I would have a little weekend bag all packed and ready to go in my car - and I'd take off for the beach - time out for thinking -
and he would not know where I was

BUT YOU have a problem - and it is the MONEY trail leading to OW ! He is paying her bills.

Be sure WH cannot wipe out your finances !!!!


What you need to think about while you are alone - what sort of man do you want to spend the rest of your life with?

Myself, I refused to stay married to any man I did not respect - and my WH had to step up immediately to earn my respect.

I was certain I would not stay married to a morally bankrupt man
I was certain I would not be in a marriage with a man who was in love with another woman
I was certain I did not want a husband who was incapable of being the spiritual head of the family

I was fully prepared to be without him - if he did not earn my respect

love? love was still there - but love is not enough without respect, in my opinion

WH can't wipe them all out - I have much secured right now. What he can get isn't all that much.

I'd love to be able to take off for the beach for a day or two. I might consider it - lord knows he did it to me more than 3-4 times this past spring and summer. I fear that he will go spend it with OW, and I don't want that to happen, but I can't stop him forever.

I think he's seeing her tomorrow. He told me at 9PM he'd be gone tomorrow, too, so I was able to send a note to PI and see if she was available. I was lucky enough to get my PI online early enough and she's going to follow her again and see what she can find out. She may have some extra time to snoop around family and the courthouse to see what kind of info she can grab.

KLD,

I think going away for the weekend is a fantastic idea.

You need to start doing more self care.

Even if he goes to OW, he sure won't have much fun, b/c he'll be wondering about YOU.

I don't think you should narrow your conversation to only ONE OW. Since he is currently seeing at least FOUR OW. This is much more than a typical A, it is a way of life w/ your H.

That's why I suggested the phrase, "I know you are cheating on me." He might think you know about one woman, or he might think you know about all of them.

I think the most important thing to do is to let him know you know.

And then wait on him.

No matter what he says, I think getting away afterwards is a very good idea.

If he tells you the full truth, if he tells you part of the truth, or if he tells you more lies....leave.

You really will need the time away from him to think through all of this.

~ Marsh

Well, WH left early this morning as is his usual routine when working out of town. He called just before 6AM to tell me that he was coming home because the job got pushed out to next week. Just wanted to let me know he was coming back home so he wouldn't accidentally frighten me when he came in because I'd probably not have left for work when he got there..

I quickly called PI to see if she was following him and she had decided to go ahead of him since she knew where he was going. So, she was going to go ahead and check in on OW and see what she was up to today.

I checked his cell phone records online and he did receive calls yesterday from the place where the work was to take place and no calls to OW. Plenty of texts to/from her, but no phone. The job must have been legit, but he would surely have seen her. PI says that he might still call later today and say the job's back on to give him an opportunity to stay the night instead of just having a day trip. PI is already there, so she's going to check some other records at the courthouse just to see if anything comes up on OW that might be helpful if we end up in court.

I'm so glad I'm going to tell him I know this weekend. This is exhausting trying to keep up with him and what he's up to. I know I'll have to continue to be diligent if we don't immediately go to plan b, but geez this is so tiresome.

KLD, my prayers are with you! (((KLD)))

Thanks, EO. I appreciate it very, very much!

Just got call from PI - unbelievable info was available at courthouse. She's been sued about 4 times for not paying bills. Her trailer was foreclosed on but she worked something out and is still paying for it now. Married 4 times - the last time she was only married for 2 months.

Small town courthouse allowed PI to make copies of everything and PI said that some of the stuff really shouldn't have even been there. So, I should have lots of info on her - not that it will help, but who knows.

This woman is in terrible shape financially right now and apparently has been for all of her adult life. I'm sure she believes WH is her key to getting out of it. Her whole life is a mess and has been a mess for quite a long time. If he were to choose to stay involved with her over working our M out, I'd say to have at it. What kind of idiot would choose Jerry Springer stuff over a stable and loving M? (DJ - I know)

Seriously, I just told a friend about the latest info on OW and she raised concerns that I hadn't thought of. Could this woman be desperate enough to do something drastic to keep WH involved? If so, what can I do to protect myself? I have no idea what she could do, but then I've never been in this kind of situation before at all.

I don't know why I keep searching for stuff, but just checked his business email account (not the email for his job, the one he set up for the business he started a year ago) - guessed his password by luck. He is using it for online dating accounts he has. It was one of those gut feelings that maybe I could find something I could use in that email account. I can't see one of the websites because it's blocked by our mail marshal (must be a hum-dinger of a singles site). But I guessed his password for the other site I could get into and his profile says he's divorced. His profile is only 10% completed and was done in mid-December (I think). It doesn't look like he's looking at it regularly, but who knows...

I'm tempted to actually post his picture in there. He doesn't have a picture posted.

Geez, there's just so much going on here that my head is spinning. Have people really been able to recover from this much before? It's not like it's just one woman he can't let go of, he's involved in lots of stuff on lots of levels.

I have to agree, KLD. The more you find out about, the more complex his problem is. And the harder it would be for him to come clean and change his ways. At least that's the way I see it. But only you know if there's something worth salvaging. I guess the one sticking point I have is that there is SO MUCH lying/deceit going on, that it appears to me to be his whole way of life - being deceitful. I just don't know that I would ever trust someone who goes to those extremes to fully break free of it. Lying is not usually taken on, later in life; it's usually ingrained in you from childhood.

I'm sorry to be so dismal but your H scares me. Scares me in terms of him ever being able to give all that up.

But who knows? Maybe you really are the love of his life and he's just taking you for granted because you're too nice, and the threat of losing you will make him willing to chuck his secret identity; i.e., it may just be a temporary illness, so to speak, an addiction that just got more and more complicated.

He has never lied to me about anything (that I found out about) before about a year and a half ago. We had problems about 3.5 years ago, but he didn't lie about things then. He's fudged a little on a few minor things - just like most of us do from time to time - but nothing major or more than merely annoying.

Do people go off the deep end and do stuff like this or are they really basically bad people all along and can't cover it up any more?

KLD,

It is doubtful that your WH will ever change his ways.

If it were me, I'd go directly to Plan D.

But, it's not me.

If you want to, give him a chance to come clean w/ you.

See if he is willing to do what you want him to.

Then decide what you want to do next.

~ Marsh

PS: When Strivin4better found her WH's on-line dating site, she changed his password to IAMALOSER.

I love the changing the password. My friends suggested I post a picture of us together on his site. If I get the guts I may do that. They also want to set up an account with the low expectation qualities he's gravitating to these days and send him an email to see what he says. I wouldn't be surprised if they do it!!

What is his first W's opinion of him?

Is he close to his family?

Does he have any friends?

~ Marsh

I don't know what his first W's opinion of him is. I've never met her. She D'd him and left the country to live with her affair partner before I ever met him.

He is not really all that close to his family. They live in England - we live in US. He talks to his mom every week. His parents D's when he was a teen due to his mom's A and that really affected him. He loves his sister very much, but they don't talk very much. I think they were close growing up, but their family in general never discussed anything important. He rarely talks to his dad who is re-married. I think he loves his family very much, but just doesn't keep in touch with them as he should.

His friends tend to be more acquaintances than real friends, though these people are somewhere between those two extremes. He got very attached to my dad and they played golf together alot until about a year and a half ago when all these issues started. We have a few couples that we do things with and that's always fun and fine.

Personally, I'd probably call and have a chat with his XWife.

I would be willing to bet you get the opposite story from her. It may likely have been HIS cheating that broke up their marriage.

I would seriously question ANYTHING he had previously told me.

I think you are dealing with a man with serious character flaws. I don't think you really know that the lying started 1 1/2 years ago....this is likely a long term pattern with him...

I'm not sure how to get in touch with the XW. I've thought about doing it, but don't know her new last name. She married again. Maybe I can do a people search for her old married name and see what I can find. The last I heard they had moved back to the states, so I may be able to find her.

I was going to confront him tonight, but he is very tired from travel yesterday and hard work in yard today. I know he will not be receptive tonight and I know from experience that timing is everything with him.

This just gets worse and worse - deeper and deeper. I'm really kind of in shock. I took some extra xanax this afternoon so I would be able to be decent to him tonight because he said he wasn't feeling all that well. So far, it's working!!!

Talked to my brother on the way home today from work and he made me feel so much better. He prayed with me before we hung up and that gave me strength.

Did a search in Intelius for XW under her married name to H. Showed me and H as relatives - probably because we've all shared the same address.

Anyway, she still has same name unless the report never picked up her married name. She lives in TX. He said she lived in IL. I'm wondering if she ever got married and if she ever lived in IL.

He did tell me when we first met that the man she met online and had A with was from Houston.

I'm thinking of calling her tomorrow. Thoughts about doing this before or after confrontation???? Do I just tell her who I am and that I'm having issues and wondered what her experiences were if she's willing to talk? Ask her for confidence?

KLD,

I'm not at all surprised at what you uncovered tonight about your WH's XW.

I'm sure you will discover more when you speak to her.

I am more concerned by the way you crush your feelings in order to spare his.

You were going to unburden yourself tonight, by telling him what you know, but b/c "he is very tired from travel YESTERDAY" and was tired from "hard work in yard today"...You decided to eat your feelings again tonight.

And then, b/c "he said he wasn't feeling all that well." YOU took some extra xanax this afternoon so YOU would be able to be decent to him tonight.

Wow!

When do your feelings matter?

When do YOU matter?

~ Marsh

Gosh. I feel like I'm making strong decisions about what I'm doing and how I'm going about it most of the time. Then when you guys show me how I push my own well being aside I feel so weak.

I actually do feel that this M has little chance of surviving at this point, but I want to leave it with class and dignity. I also want to make sure I have as much data as I can have to set myself up to not be a loser in the D.

I'm so ready to talk to him and will most definitely make my deadline of Sunday afternoon. I actually plan to do it tomorrow. He's in a crappy mood for some reason now. Has gone in the other room to watch tv in the dark alone. Normally I'd be checking on him and when I went in to see if he wanted to come watch something with me, he declined. So I just said okay, enjoy.

He also said my typing on the computer was on his nerves. I offered to put it away - said I was working on my resume and could finish it tomorrow. He said no big deal and stayed in his room. Maybe he's depressed he didn't get to frolic naked with his OW today... Hate that so bad for him!!!LOL

KLD, there is not going to be any way to tell him that he is going to like, so it is best to just get it over with and stop delaying. There will always be something if you continue to look for it. It has to be done. His reaction is his problem entirely. If he gets mad, or whatever, you can handle it. You are a grown woman. Please stop putting this off, KLD, you will drive yourself nuts trying to avoid conflict.

Are you sure you feel weak b/c I pointed out how you push your own well being aside?

Or do you feel weak b/c you ARE pushing your own well being aside?

I'm not trying to discourage you.

I'm trying to nudge you in the direction of caring for yourself....so you will feel strong, rather than weak.

~ Marsh

I think it's a combination of all of that. I think I'm strong because I'm making conscious efforts to handle this the way I want it handled. Then it hits me that I'm really procrastinating and that makes me feel very weak.

I think not actively taking better care of myself is weak. I do still worry about his well being whether he deserves that or not. That also seems weak because he is responsible for his stuff.

I practiced my speech in the car and recorded it. It was calm and rational. It may be too short and probably won't go the way I plan, but at least I have my lead in done and the rest will have to be from my heart.

I'd planned on maybe taking an overnight trip after our talk especially if things went badly, but my brother asked me to please not leave the house for more than an hour or so. He thinks it would be best for me to have him leave if someone has to go away for overnight.

Hi KLD,

I thought the common wisdom was that the BS should not leave the house. Your brother may be right. Hopefully someone else will chime in here to say yay or nay.

Also, do you think it would be good to call the XW before you talk to your H? I *really* don't want to give you another excuse to procrastinate, so don't use it like that. But you may get some info you can use. If you don't call her before you confront H, then definitely do so after.

My sister was dating someone who said he was divorced. He even had his teenage son confirm that they were divorced. Turns out they weren't. He was totally slimey. She had to get the cops involved to get him out of her apt and her life.

You need to call the XW, see what her side of the story is. But don't use that as an excuse to postpone talking to your H.

KLD, I will be praying for you this morning. You are a strong, intelligent woman and you have the ability to do this. There is no such thing as PERFECTION in these situations; there is no perfect time except the present. Choose to be strong and get this over with. We will be pulling for you and will be here to support you when you get back!

((((KLD)))),

I wanted so badly to post yesterday but was unable to be at a computer.

You are NOT weak and you don't behave weakly!!!!!! You are attempting to do EVERYTHING!! I would guess that you are the person that people turn to when they need something done, because you are able to get it done. That is an unselfish, STRONG attitude. The only time it is a problem is when NO ONE takes care of you too. Hence the problem with Giver/Taker. Right now you are forgetting to take care of yourself and acknowledging your feelings is part of that. That is NOT weakness. I would suggest that you get your Taker into high gear before you talk with your WH.

I know you know this but it is highly unlikely that your H has only been lying for a year and a half. All his life is more like it. UNLESS he has a brain tumor or chemical problem that has developed in the last few years. That is possible and I mention it because I have seen it happen.

BUT, I would not suggest giving the idea to your WH. he might jump on it and find a way to use it.

If you have ANY desire to stay with him, you can make it a condition that he has to get himself TOTALLY checked out by doctors, have him allow you to sign a waiver that will give you permission to talk to the doctors and have all info released to YOU(actually this is just PORH anyway), and go to the Doctor"s with him. You can say it's because of your concern about HIV, syphilis, etc.

Then YOU talk to the doctor.

All that said, IMHO(and I really mean that because this is contrary to what the vets have advised and I take their advice so serously), I would NOT leave your home for any great length of time. Maybe an hour or two AT THE MOST. Your H's life thrives because he is alone and secret most of the time. Leave ONLY if you feel physically threatened. He may leave anyway.

HE IS A PROFESSIONAL LIAR!!!! I mean that literally. He has found a way to get paid and taken care of by lying. Please call the XW as soon as you can. Don't hesitate.

You rock KLD. We all think so here. I am humbly realizing that if you had confronted when "I" felt you should that you would have thought he was having an A with one woman and he would have bben able to continue to lie about the utter depravity of what has been happening. I can only hope that in your situation that I would have the courage to follow my instincts as strongly as you have.


Praying VERY intensely and waiting for word,
WH2LE

KLD,

One more thought. He has already thought of MANY outcomes to this siuation. Sociopathic liars(sorry for the DJ and I don't mean to diagnose, but...) do that because...well...they lie.

BELIEVE NOTHING he says and prepare yourself for ANYTHING.

Remember, he has told the same horrific lies to the OWs. They are NOT his soulmates and friends. They are part of his "web of lies life".

Contact and expose to them. Try to get to the OWs before he does after you have confronted.

Praying,
WH2LE

KLD, how're you doing, hon?

KLD,

We're here for you. Have been checking often to see how you are. Praying and praying some more.

WH2LE

just bumping to hear from KLD. Honey, we're rooting for you. Please let us know you're ok, when you have the chance.

I confronted him yesterday afternoon. I was able to keep my temper under control, but I did cry. I didn't get out of control crying, though.

I started out by telling him that he knows I'm on ADs because of the stres and things going on in my life that I've had a hard time handling and that i'm in counseling. He agreed that he knew those things. I then told him that I know about OW (I used her name). He said what about her? I said that you're having an affair. He denied. I said I know it's true, no need to lie about it more. He still denied. I told him that i knew he spent the night at her house last week for 2 nights and that the 12 hour days of work he claimed to have done was really only abou 3. I told him about taking her and the daughter to dinner. He couldn't deny any more. He wanted to know if I followed him - I said all you need to know is that I know about all of it.

He never really got mad. He withdrew a little. I told him I knew about the other women from online and the one in MA. He denied all of that. I gave him details of his online profile and he said it wasn't him - I didn't share that I know it's him because he used the same password he uses on everything else and I was able to get into the profile and see everything even stuff that didn't show up.

So, I basically shared enough info so he knows I'm on to him big time. I may have shared too much, but I did it like I felt I needed to.

He said he was sorry when I asked if he had anything to say. I then told him what a low-life piece of trash he'd hooked up with and asked if he knew some of the financial details I had on her and he said he didn't know. He's probably lying or he's really pissed at her right now or maybe he doesn't care...

I asked him again if he has anything to say and he again said he's sorry. He said he does have some things to say to me, but he wants to think it through before he does.

So, I took an ambien and went to bed at 8:30 last night.

He did text her after our talk. I found it on his online account this morning. I have no idea what they were saying to each other, though. He didn't change any of his passwords - I checked everything this morning and I still have the same accesses as before. So he didn't think I got my info this way or he just doesn't care anymore.

He did ask what it would be like if we tried to work it out. I told him immediate no contact with any of these women and he could never have contact with them again. He would have to learn how to create boundaries to protect his part of the M and we would have to work together to determine how things would go for recovery. He would have to be transparent to me and come clean with everything.

This may be too tall of an order for him, but I guess I'll wait to see what he says.

When I went to bed, I told him that I just needed to tell him that he has hurt me more than I've ever been hurt in my life. I told him I'd never beent his angry at anyone ever before. That this betrayal was sometimes more than I felt I could bear. I told him he needed to hear those things to know at least part of what he's done and continues to do.

He said he knows all those things. He also said he needs me to know that he's not moving out of his home. I said then you also need to know that I'm not moving out of my home, either. Then I went to bed.

If he doesn't come with his response to me in the next few days - at least by the end of the week - I'm going to file for D. I may ask him one more time what his response is, but if I get nothing, then I'm done.

{{{KLD}}}}

Wow, you were amazing. I'm so sorry I have to say it in this context, but you were. And nothing from him? Just wow.

Maybe he was in shock; maybe he's used to controlling things so he has no intention of showing weakness.

Make sure he knows he's not sleeping in the bedroom any more. Move everything he owns that was in the bedroom into the guest room if you have one, or into boxes in the living room. That's all you have to say on that matter. Let him know who's in charge, as it sounds like he's trying to regain control and may feel he can manhandle his way into getting the upper hand. If you have to leave work to do it, do so. Take half the day off today (mental health day), and have it done before he gets home. I really think this is imperative, because it sounds to me like he's going to try to regain control.

If you can, type out some sample NC letters and hand them to him when he gets home. See what he says. That will tell you what he's decided.

You remind me of a man, a building contractor, who tried to scam us. We prepared a notebook of proof that he had scammed us, complete with video; we asked him to our house, he tried to do his bs about he's just been misunderstood, then we showed him the notebook and the video, which we said we were taking to the authorities if he didn't finish our renovation. He immediately shut up. What else could he say?

I'm so proud of you!

Yes, when men are caught, they often clam up. But part of your recovery will be getting your questions answered, even if it takes several days. You did give him a lot of info, so anything that you can convert to "I guessed it," at this point, I would.

Remember that thing about no SF until you've decided for certain about the D. Right here is the time where men look for a weakness, try to schmooze in romantically, try to take advantage, attempt to make things feel same ole/same ole. My thoughts are with you.

You did great.

KLD,

YOU ARE FABULOUS!!!! He is definitely shocked at you. But he is an accomplished liar and is very angry that he has had to admit some of the truth. His coldness is a form of controlled panic.

I am so sorry for the unbelievable pain that you are in even as I am typing this. I know that this is as bad as it gets. Whatever happens, it will not hurt worse than this. I also know that is no comfort when you have been betrayed this badly.

I love it that you didn't let on how you got your information. Your control is amazing.

Have you exposed to each of the OWs? REMEMBER, he is a liar. Not just to you. To EVERYBODY!!!! Even though my H did not lie on this scale, he told me about MANY lies he had told the OW. Affairs are built on LIES. Even if you get a D(which I know seems likely at this moment), expose to the OWs. And attempt to call the XW. I suspect there is more there to help your case.

Alos, try to think that anything else you find out now is going to help you, even if it it is initially painful.

I am proud of you too. And also devastated for you.

Did you call your friends? Go see them if you can, even if just for a half hour. Don't forget to eat and drink. TELL SOMEONE!!! Someone who will watch out for you and ask how you are every time you talk to them. I wish I was your next door neighbor right now. We would drink tea and I'd cry with you.

By the way, ditto on everything from Cat. Do NOT let him bully you.

Praying,
WH2LE

Thanks to each of you for the encouragement. I'm feeling so low right now - I think everything has just crashed in. I felt a burden lifted yesterday when I was telling him what I know, but soon after all I wanted to do was sleep. I feel that way now and I have to work. I've been at work all day and haven't done a thing.

I did tell 2 of my friends through email the basics of what happened. My brother called yesterday while my WH was out getting himself some dinner (he did offer to bring me something, too) and told him what had happened. So some of my support group IRL knows.

I want to expose OW to each other, but I don't think I'm ready to do that today. I know I should - maybe this afternoon. I am going to call th XW in the next few minutes. Don't know if she'll be home or not, but I'm going to try.

Thanks again for the support and encouragement. It means more than I can say.

Hang in there KLD!
You're doing great.
You're taking back your life.

(((HUGS)))

Well, XW is a dead end. The number I had is disconnected and PI hasn't been able to find anything else out on her, either. Guess I need to let that one go at least for now.

Hi KLD,

I have been reading......
I hope you don't mind if I give my opinion.

It looks like you have been getting really good help. It also looks like you personally are doing well. Sometimes, when in the middle of it all, it doesn't FEEL like you are doing well, but from here, it does look good.

Why?

Well, you haven't come apart at the seams. You may feel the stress, and the strain, and it may affect your health, and your ability to sleep, but you are still keeping things together. You know (as does everyone who goes through this) that it takes a terrible toll on a person. It occupies your waking thoughts much more than anything ought to, and sometimes your sleeping thoughts also. It affects pretty much everything you do to some extent. However, you are still functioning. You have goals, and you are accomplishing them. You have a plan, and you have been working it.

Your H has choices. He can tell the truth, and try for recovery, or he can continue to stall, lie, and try to hide things. I am not impressed with his reaction so far. The initial reaction was not that of a repentant man who wanted to make things right. We don't know his thoughts now. He could be agonizing over the wrongs he has inflicted on you, and wondering how he can ever make it right. Or, he could be trying to hang on to his addiction, and wondering how he can continue to play all of you so he has what he wants.

Remember that you have choices too. If he makes some of the right noises, and you try to work out your marriage, you still have the choice to leave at a later date. I am not saying that you should leave, or that you will, but that choice won't go away. It seems to help to keep some of these basic facts in mind when you make decisions.

No matter what he does, you can still make the choice to be happy, to always do what is right, to have dreams, and make them come true. No matter what he does, all is not lost for you, and you can still have a wonderful life. I hope you believe that, for it is true.

Now, I am not suggesting that you can turn off the stress in an instant, and that everything will be perfect in a day, or a week. It's just that sometimes we get in a hole, and we concentrate on the walls of the hole, and not the fact that there is a whole big wide world up top, and that we won't be in the hole forever. I would like you to spend some time concentrating on the good, and remembering that the bad won't last forever.

I hope you believe in yourself. That doesn't mean you are able to say the words....... but I hope you feel deep down that you are of great worth, and that you matter, and that you can, and will be happy.

I hope you pray. I hope you get answers, and comfort, and know that God is there, and that he cares, and will help.

I hope you know that we care too.
SS

Thank you for reminding me that deciding to work it out isn't set in stone. I do have worries that he will say he wants to work it out and then go right back to the same patterns. I'm not willing to allow more than zero tolerance going forward.

I just checked his cell phone account again - he texted her all the way to work this morning - 30 texts between them in about an hour. Yesterday they texted about 20 times after he knew that I know about his A.

I realize that he has commited to nothing at this point because he's barely said a word. Continuing to communicate isn't a surprise, but I'm still so very angry about it. I really can't give it up to him that I know because I can't reveal that I know how to get into his account.

I suppose it's a waiting game for me now, anyway. I need to wait to hear what he says and if he agrees to work things out then we discuss how he can prove his honesty to me. Until then, I continue be strong and see what happens.

I have been praying - for me, my parents (who are taking this really, really hard), my WH, and also OW. I've had a hard time praying for her, but I've managed to do it some. I guess my prayer may get cancelled out, though, when after I say "Amen" I wish she'd get run over by a bus?????? LOL.

I'm not impressed with his reaction so far, either. He's a very quiet person who doesn't communicate well when placed in a stressful situation. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt there.

However, I'm less than thrilled that immediately after he found out about my knowledge and then this morning he's in touch with her as much as he was before I told him I know. It's not showing me all that much that he's interested in cutting off contact. I think he's paying bills for her and this will be a problem that he will have to work out. I also think she is a piece to a lawsuit he has going and will want to use that as a reason to continue to be in touch. He's woven quite a web of deceit that he is going to have to work out of if he wants to be M to me.

I've considered sending her a picture of us so she can see the family she's trying to break up. Trash like her doesn't care about that, though. I'd be wasting my time and probably just giving him a reason to be angry.

KLD,

Not to give her too much credit -- but your husband has very likely lied to her too.

He may have told her he's divorced. He may have told her he was never married. He may have told her he's married, but there's some big reason he can't divorce you -- like you have cancer or some other reason to get her sympathy.

She may drop him like a hot potato when she hears he is married. Or she may bust his balls like never before.
But I don't think you have much to lose by giving her the truth...

She knows he's married. I've talked to her on the phone several times when they worked together - asking for him when I called and telling her I was his wife. Then another time when I found her number repeatedly on his bill. I called her then and asked her why she was calling and texting my husband every day. That was in about April or so of last year. Then I talked to her again in July when I couldn't find him for 4 days. When she wouldn't tell me what she knew, I had the detective who was working the missing persons case I filed on him give her a call. She talked then and I found out he had seen her but only for lunch on Saturday.

He may have told her some bs story, but she kmows I exist.

My question is - do I wait until he says he wants to work out the M to call these women and their families, or do I do it now before he's hardly said boo about what kind of crock pot he's found himself in?

KLD,

Good for you on the confrontation.

The reason you feel as low as before is because this guy is a LUMP!

He is sorry. Yeah sorry you found out!!

Did he beg your forgiveness? Sounds like all he said was "I will not move out of the house."

BECAUSE HE IS A LUMP!

I'm afraid you are going to have to get a crow bar and PRY him to do ANYTHING.

He is texting this chick and weighing all his alternative options before he will get back to you with his reply!! HOW DISRESPECTFUL OF HIM!!

Lowlife keeps coming to mind.

Sorry, but I would go directly to plan D, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Stay strong.

kirk

(((KLD))), just sending some more hugs and prayers your way. My instinct would say to go ahead and expose because he hasn't stopped the texting yet, but have you and Jennifer discussed possible outcomes already?

I think his "non-reaction" and texting marathon IS his answer. He's NOT sorry. He's figuring out his options. Are you prepared for Plan B? I thinking Plan A would be a waste on this guy. Sorry.

I've been in Plan A for a while even though I wasn't aware of the A. I haven't talked to Jennifer again because things just got so out of control and I just couldn't do anything but research for a while. I probably should try to get with Jennifer again and see what she says.

I talked to my mom this morning and told her that I have a fairly long list of requirements that he would have to meet to come back to our M. If he doesn't bring the issue up himself by Friday at the very latest, I'm filing for D. I'm not warning him of this, either, I will just do it.

I'm not actually prepared for Plan B, because I don't exactly know how I'd accomplish it without moving out of our house. I don't think I should have to move - I haven't been sleeping around - and I don't think he will move. Can my lawyer help with this? Or am I better to just file for D and forget about plan B?

A big part of me says Plan B will only give him more time to play around while not having to be responsible for the M he is still a part of.

I agree that the 50 texts means that he's discussing with her what to do. If I had to guess, he may actually think he has feeling for her (sorry) and that he may have been making some sort of fantasy plans for him and her, once he figured out how to get rid of you. The others? Just a symptom of his addiction.

I don't know what it is she's giving him that his depraved mind craves, but it's something. If you were me, I'd start pulling out all his 'goodies' until all he's got left to keep him living with you is sheer determination on his part to get to keep the house. Sell his golf clubs ('oh, didn't you say you were tired of them? I thought you did!'), accidentally bleach a washload of pants so he has to wear the same pants every day, burn the food...you get the idea.

Of course, if he does break down and beg forgiveness, I take it all back...

As for exposing, I would wait until tomorrow, see what happens tonight. He's obviously fortifying his 'method' today with chickadee, so what what crap he comes up with. And have all your exposure plans ready. And don't let him know you're doing it. I truly believe that your greatest defense is sheer silence. Drive him batty trying to figure out what you're going to do.

I read once that the greatest punishment you can do to a child for a transgression is to tell him/her that you and father/mother have to discuss it tonight, after you've gone to bed, and will let you know your punishment in the morning. Then let them stew on it all night long, wondering how bad the punishment is going to be. Usually, the torment is worse than the punishment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure the lawyer will know how to get him out of the house, if you so decide. Unless you're afraid of violence, in which case you should involve family and/or authorities. I guess plan b is only if you want to reconcile, isn't it? So that's the $20 million question. I guess if it were me, it would depend on his actions of the next few days, just like you're planning.

First, I agree. You SHOULD talk to Jennifer for direction.

Secondly, aren't you in the same state as EOTS? Where they have AOA laws? If you are, then you have a big advantage, if you decide to go the D route. Your attorney could get him out of the house with temporary orders. You can also file on the fault ground of adultery.

Where is EOTS? I'm in Georgia. I know we don't have AOA laws here - believe me, I'd use it if I had it. I know I can file on grounds of adultery.

I think I'll make an appt with Jennifer and see what she has to say.

Oh my bad. I thought he was in Atlanta too.

Expose to everyone you can. File for D, and when he goes away over night again, change the locks.

~ Marsh

KLD,

Plan D can actually be the same as Plan B. A divorce isn't final until it's final. The important thing is to protect yourself and that's what Plan B is about. You can do the same things whether you want to save your M or get a D. Like you said, you have already Plan Ad, so it's time to move to the next step.

Again, I am not a vet here and I fear contradicting their advice, but I would NOT wait to expose. Your H does not act like the common run-of-the-mill cheater(whatever THAT is lol).

He is a cool cucumber.

I believe that when he told you that he hads things to say to you but that he wanted to think about them first that he was using the stalling tactic. He was truly caught by surprise and he did not have a ready plan.

He has you convinced that he does not communicate well under pressure. I don't believe that is the case. He knows how to put you off, create insecurities in you and engender sympathy for himself. How many times has he used this same technique to guilt you to get to give him time to "collect" himself?

Catch him by surprise again.

Great idea not to warn him about possibly filing for D.

The mere fact that he has not changed his passwords tells you how he underestimates you. Use t his.

I would expose IMMEDIATELY. BEFORE he has a chance to "spin" the story too much to the OWs. You can't, of course, put out every fire he starts but you can keep dampen some of them a little. This is NOT revenge. It's the right thing to whether you are going to get a D or save your M.

Think of lying as your WH's "hobby". He loves it. He works at it. He has perfected his abilities. Do not give him the benefit of the doubt UNLESS you can do it WITHOUT further damage to yourself.

I had to laugh when you talked about praying for the OW. I have given up trying to do that for the moment because my prayers always went like this: "Oh Lord, please bless OW and help her to see that she's a B****".

I am guessing that God is not going to honor that prayer!!!!!

WH2LE

You don't have to move. Unfortunately he may not have to either. In my state neither party can be forced out of the marital home until the D is final. But if his life with you does not give him the satisfaction it has thus far he may CHOOSE to leave. DO NOT LEAVE!!!!!

Praying,
WH2LE

I will not leave that house. There's no doubt about that. If I have to continue to live with him, I will, but I will not pack a suitcase to stay in a hotel while he figures his carp out. I have alot more resources than he does to fight this in court - not that I want to use them all, but I will if I have to.

I'm going to print everything I can that's new every day. I had been doing it once a week or monthly, but now I'll do it daily in case he changes his passwords.

My mom asked me today if there was anything they can do to help. I told her that at some point I may want them to tell WH how this has made them feel. I know he loves and respects them and I'd like him to know that he's hurt them, too. I'm not sure what the best timing would be for this - maybe it depends on what he plans to do. I also think a letter would be more appropriate than a phone call. Thoughts on this?

KLD, I wasn't going to post this until it felt like the right time. Why would he keep starting to leave, then come back? Is he beneficiary to a life insurance policy? You've probably already done this, but write a new will when you get the chance. Make sure that nothing goes to him. Have your brother be your executor so he can't get his hands on it.

Because ... I have this weird suspicion ... feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... that if there is heart disease in your family, he may be working an angle. (And I apologize if I am so very wrong!) His actions were piling up stress upon stress upon stress on you. Nearly everything he's done over the past couple of years has been stressful, neglectful and cruel.

Is he trying to stress you out into a collapse? Is he trying to outlive you? Again, I am sorry if I am so very wrong. Maybe five years from now, everyone will know how very wrong I am.

But I just get this weird feeling. He is just so cold and calculating. Even now, I cannot help but suspect he is calculating something. He was prepared for this to some degree. He is not giving you anything to hold on to so far.

KLD,

Calculating is an excellent word.

Personally, I would have your parents call him NOW!! Unless it's too stressful for them to speak to him. Then send him an e-mail, again, NOW!! HIS fantasy world needs to come crashing down. If the stress is hard for HIM, all the better. Heap it on!!!

Praying,
WH2LE

Valentine - I appreciate your concern for my health and longevity! I never ever considered that he was doing anything to jeopardize my health. I supposed it's not out of the question, though. I already have Crohn's Disease and WH is almost always very understanding amd helpful regarding that. He probably knows that that won't kill me though!!! LOL

The largest part of my estate would be my retirement accounts which I can't take out of his name without his signature. I don't think I could get that from him at this time. My life insurance isn't much (only about $150K) or so I could easily have changed to my brother. My newphew is already secondary on my retirement accts, but that won't matter if WH is around when I enter the pearly gates.

WH just called to tell me he was on his way home from work. Wanted to tell me he had a good first day and that he is happy about it. Wonder if he called me or OW first?

Asked me how my day went, I said it was fine. I was pretty distant and not chatty. I can't believe he called like he normally would after all that happened yesterday.

I'm supposed to go to a class tonight and he wanted to know if I was going. I said I am going. He asked what time I'd be home and if I wanted him to have some dinner waiting on me when I got there.

I've been suspicious that he was having OW in our home when I've been in class, but all my research shows that's never been the case. I've shown up unexpectedly without letting him know twice and he's always been there alone.

He had nothing to say like he is sorry for anything. He's acting like nothing happened. He didn't even seem to notice that I was quieter than normal. What is the matter with this man?

KLD,

This sounds like his typical MO. Throw you off guard, pretend like his behavior is reasonable and suck you back into his game. DON'T DO IT. Tell him that you are NOT going to pretend any longer that there is nothing going on and then when he is ready to talk to let you know. Do NOT even show him common courtesy. Ignore him as though he is not there if he chooses not to discuss the issue at hand.

He considers your politeness to be weakness. He WILL exploit this. This is what I personally thought he might do. It is what my H did. It will drive you crazy. Do not act as though nothing has happened. If he wants to do that, well, dandy for him. But don't YOU do it. It will work against you in every way.

Praying,
WH2LE

KLD,

I forgot to say what I really mean.

BE MAD. ACT MAD!!! STAY MAD!!!

You are doing beautifully!!!!

WH2LE

One of the phrases we hear often on MB is "How can I get him to........"

You are not using it. I believe that is a good thing. You can't get him to do anything, and really, you don't want to "Get" him to. What you want, is to know what is in his heart. If you knew his heart was right, but he was weak, you would probably hand around helping for a long time.

One of the things we learn as we go through life is to watch a persons actions to see what their intent really is. Often they say one thing, but do another.

Knowing about the texts on the way to work, I wonder if you really need any other indicators. If there are problems with her that would take a lawyers help to untangle, he should have told you, and asked for your help. (Joint loans, or whatever.) He has not discussed any of it with you, nor has he expressed sorrow. He has continued to communicate with her. Is this the sign of someone who is sorry, and wants to make you happy?

I don't see this as a case of someone who isn't getting their needs met going elsewhere.

Probably it is best not to force his hand though. If you apply force he may do an about face and actually cut off all contact with the OW's just to preserve his financial health. If you really want to see what he is made of, lie low, don't confront again for a few weeks, and let him show you his true colors.

He already denied, denied, denied. He is acting like nothing happened. You are asking "What is the matter with this man?"

It looks like someone who is stalling for time.

If he does say he wants to make it work, you will have to decide if you trust him enough to try.

One way to tell is to give him Jennifer's number, and tell him to call her and work out a plan for recovery. Also tell him that if the plan is good enough, you MAY go along with it, but if not, all bets are off. Please don't promise him anything. I hate to tell you that, but you need to protect yourself, more than you need to try to help him. Please continue to operate from a position of personal safety.

There is no reason for you to have to do all the work if he really wants to recover.

I have made some assumptions about what is in your head. You may make some about what is in his. You can't afford to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point. You have to take the POV that he is a lier, and a cheat until HE PROVES OTHERWISE. If he doesn't want to take up the challenge, you have decisions to make.

Carefully read the suggestions given to you. Use them in your plan if they are a good fit. I personally don't have much faith in him right now. It would take a total about face for me to even begin to believe, and then a long uphill battle for him to get back to a normal relationship.

You may want to read this in case you need it in future discussions -
This is from another poster who hasn't been on the form for a while (Takola)

"It is frustrating to know your mate does not trust you. The knowledge can be quite painful. It is also, underneath the hurt, empowering. You know what is wrong, so now you can figure out how to fix it.

Trust is earned, as is credibility. It is not something freely given, no matter how much society tries to pretend that it is. Trust is earned by repeatedly telling verifiable truths. It is earned by not causing harm to another. It is earned when someone is always there to catch us when we fall. It is damaged when someone allows us to fall or, worse, is the cause of the tumble. It is damaged when untruths are detected. It makes us question what else has occurred. What else was dishonest? When else were you pushed and caused to stumble?


The answer to the loss of trust is to realize first that there is a reason for it.

Second, you need to take responsibility for it.

Third, you need to accept that it takes time to rebuild trust.

Fourth, you need to behave in a trustworthy manner so as to actually rebuild the trust.

People come to me all the time complaining that their spouse doesn’t trust them. My answer is to repair their credibility and behave in a verifiably trustworthy manner.

“He should just know I’m telling the truth.” No. Read The National Enquirer. Do you just know that any article in there is true? I hope not. The problem is credibility. Until you rebuild your own, you must rely on the credibility of other things that independently verify your truthfulness.

Spouses who have lost credibility make the mistake of trying to stand on it anyway. If you try to stand on a bridge that isn’t there, you are going to fall. Same thing happens when you try to stand on missing credibility. They also try to push it to be the problem of the spouse who doesn’t trust them

“She just has trust issues.” My answer is, “She has issues trusting you because you’ve taught her that trusting you leads to pain and/or humiliation. She shouldn’t trust you. Want trust? Earn it.”

Final analogy: trust isn’t like the lottery, where you get a lot for practically nothing. It’s more like a paycheck that has to be earned."

Remember to breathe - and learn to relax. Even if you have to force it (SS smiles) You'll catch on.

SS

Well, tonight when I got home I kind of lost it. I did a few of my chores and got pjs on for bed. WH said he was tired and was going go bed. He said he didn't sleep well last night. Poor thing.

I had only about 3-4 words for him when I got home and was doing my few little things to do. When he said he was going to bed he asked if I wanted him to sleep in the guest room. I said he could sleep wherever he pleased. Then I thought about it and went back in there and told him I didn't want to sleep in the bed with him right now knowing that he'd been spending so much time naked with OW and behaving like nothing was wrong. That comment made him mad and said I thought we'd get past this but you're going to hold it over my head. He had already said he would talk to me tomorrow night. I told him that I can't help it that I'm angry right now and that if he expects me to only be angry when it's convenient for him then too bad.

He went to the guest room and I just started crying and couldn't stop. He did come in and put his arm around me and try to comfort me. He suggested I go to bed and get some rest. I told him I'd take care of getting to bed when I was ready. He went away then.

I'm mad that I brought it up with him. I'm mad that I couldn't just be cold to him and get on with the few short minutes left between when I got home and bed time.

I don't blame you for being angry. No telling what kind of cooties OW has.

Try to stay calm and start taking good care of YOU.

It's taken me a few days to read your thread, I started out at the beginning... now I'm no vet, and I'm still dealing with a WH who is sleeping at warthogs house... but in my opinion you did OK tonight! I don't know that any of us should be expected to fake our emotions!! From what you said in the post above you didn't do much if any LBing. You showed how you felt, I'm thinking that's probably pretty good considering it's just now out in the open. If he thought you were OK with his cheating that would be wrong! I say be honest, if you're mad state it "I'm mad!!", if you are sad, then go ahead and cry, just don't say or do anything that you'll regret later. After awhile you wouldn't want to continue crying about him, but from the looks of it you are a very strong person and you will get beyond this point soon. Hang in there!!

Thanks for the encouragement.

I forgot another thing I said that was probably stupid. I asked him how many times he called her or texted her today to say what a b***** his wife is. He said he texted her once this morning to say he couldn't talk to her anymore. I told him he was full of sh**. He asked me how I know that and I just said because you've lied to me so many times before I can't believe a word that comes out of your mouth. Show me your phone that you have locked up in your care so I can't get to it so I can see there was only one text. He said he would show it to me in the morning. I said "after you've had time to erase all the others?" He got mad about that comment, too.

The problem is that I know he had 30 texts between him and her this morning on his drive to work. There were 20 texts when he went out to pick up some dinner after our talk yesterday. So he is lying through his teeth again and I really can't give up that I have data to prove he's lying or I give away one of my tools. This is so maddening. I hate this so very much!

And SS - I've been so wrapped up in my own Jerry Springer show I didn't know you were still dealing with ongoing contact. I'm so very sorry for you. Thank you a million times a million for taking time with me when you've got so much on your own plate.

KLD,

ARE YOU KIDDING???? You did fabulous!!! Expressing your pain and telling the truth are NOT LBs. I can not tell you how much I admire the way you are handling yourself!!

He is a LIAR and you are calling him on it. You may be the first person to ever do that. OF COURSE he's mad. He lives in a perpetually fogged in world. And you refuse to participate in his Fantasy Fog Game anymore. How dare you!!!

Keep it up KLD!!! You are an inspiration. And you WILL be ok. You WILL!!!!!!

Praying,
WH2LE

KLD, I think you are doing great. It's not possible to do everything perfectly through a time like this. Just remind yourself, you are doing the best you can. That's really the most you can expect of yourself under circumstances like these.

Personally, it would definitely be on my list of conditions that husband sign off on retirement accounts 'until such a time when I feel I can trust you again.' Because his biggest love may be $$$. If he did agree, having a little caveat about trust could build a pressure point for transparency.

(I don't condone breakng the law, but plenty of people have forged signatures under circumstances like these. So you are doing great if you resist the tempation.)

KLD, I am so sorry that you aren't happy with how you did last night. Is that natural, the second guessing? The wondering if you do and say things exactly perfect? I can only imagine how hard that would be.

I want you to know that I am so proud of you. I'm no expert, but they say that Plan A is the reality-bringer, so being honest about the consequences sounds more healthy than enabling his fog by playing along that this is no big deal, that you won't have any questions until tomorrow.

I almost wonder if he hardened his heart last night against showing you the phone because he doesn't want to join you in recovery, and he wants you to end it? His loss, KLD, and what a huge loss that is.

But does it help validate to you that you are doing the healthy thing for yourself, KLD, by getting the information that you have? To see how solidly hard his heart is so that you will know that you are doing the right thing to put an end to this.

I checked his phone records again this morning and no new texts showed up. It could be that it just hasn't updated - sometimes it's very slow.

What I did find was that his phone call records updated and he called her and talked for 25 minutes. He may be dealing with these things with her, but how can I know if he is going to keep on lying or at a minimum not sharing the details?

This morning he kissed me before he left for work and it was all I could do to allow it. He obviously noticed and said I didn't have to kiss him if I didn't want to. I followed him out to the kitchen and said I didn't appreciate flip comments when I was going through trying to deal with his adultery. He said he didn't mean it flip and that he didn't want to talk about it right now that we would talk tonight. I said well you just need to remember that your lips have kissed others and that thought nauseates me. You've put my health at risk by sleeping with other people. Did you even consider that? No, he didn't think of that. Did you use condoms? No, he didn't. I told him I couldn't believe he would risk my health, his health, possibility of pregnancy this way. I said that he has no idea what kind of filthy disease she may have and you exposed me to that. I asked if he knew who else she was sleeping with and he said no. He was angry at me by now.

I said when we talk tonight if I hear one bit of anger out of you who doesn't deserve to be angry I'll walk out on the conversation and we're done.

one itsy piece of advice... to him she's not filthy or disgusting, we all know that she's a low life piece of crap, tramp... etc... but if you say negative things to him that will be a LBing... I know it's hard, but try to bite your tongue and keep those kind of comments to yourself while talking to him... then come here and tell us what a piece of dung she is ;-) I bad mouth warthog all the time, on here, but not to WH!

Hope you have a better day today!

I understand what you're saying about calling her names. I am getting angrier and angrier as this goes further. I will try to control the name calling and saying things about her that will make him defend her. I realize I don't do myself any favors when I behave this way.

Thanks for the reminder. I needed it.

KLD, name-calling slips out. Here it is, a year later, and the term "ex-fart" slipped out when I referred to my DH's ex-wife. It happens.

EO, thanks for helping me with some clarity and possibility around the not getting the phone to show me. He knew he couldn't prove he was telling the truth, so he chose to lie again.

I don't know if he wants to end the M or not. He very well may want that and not have the guts to do it himself. He's said he wanted that many times over the last year but never did it. He may just be waiting for me to get mad enough to do it.

I think the other possibility is that he may want the M, but only if he can keep it on his own terms which would be that he gets to continue with any behavior he chooses. That's not acceptable to me and if he hasn't figured it out by now, he will be aware that's not an acceptable deal for me very soon.

I did tell him last night that I'm not afraid to divorce him and that it's a much better option for me than to continue to be treated like junk. Guess what he had to say about that? You're right... nothing.

KLD, I think everything you said was perfect. If you didn't say something rude about OW, at least once, it may not get through to him as much about how awful it is what he's done.

About this:
I just want to make sure you see this for what it is. It is pure, malevolent manipulation, straight out of the books my D17 is reading on mental abuse. It could be quoted out of the books. So just remember that he has already decided to beat you down with your own kindness, to make you doubt your 'right' to be mad at him. DON'T do it! Stay mad!

If he's waiting until tonight, he is putting together a h&ll of a show to present to you, to make him look as least guilty as possible, to blame as much as possible of it on you (or the OW), and to phrase it all just so, so that you will start doubting what you know.

SO. I will give you the advice from the abuse books, on how to get away from such a person intact, without letting him make YOU cave. What you do is, you prepare at most two or three easy statements that you keep repeating every time he comes up with a blame against you or an excuse for yourself. For example, he says 'I just wasn't getting the love from you that I needed' so you say 'You betrayed me and our marriage. That's all I need to say.' Then he says 'but you've been such a cold b*tch.' So you say 'You betrayed our marriage, not me.' Keep repeating what HE did. NEVER discuss ANYTHING that you did. If he continues on what you've done wrong, say 'You can bring it up in divorce court.' Don't EVER let the discussion become about you.

Just 2 or 3 statements. Don't let yourself sway from those, no matter how hard he tries to push your buttons, and by golly you know he will try!

The reason for this is that, once you get into unscripted territory, you lose your momentum and he has the opportunity to use his lying and manipulation to twist what you say. If you stick to 2 or 3 phrases that you know are fact, not feeling, he can't attack them and has no defense.

Oh, just have to say that when he asked you how you knew (boy is he dumb!), and you said 'let me look at your phone' - that was priceless! Great way to confuse him into thinking you're just bluffing.

Thanks for the tips, Cat. I never thought about having something prepared to repeat over and over if needed. I do tend to talk too much and I think this will help me in that department. I also tend to want to take responsibility for my part and I need to not do that at least for this conversation. Throughout this situation I've also taken responsibility for his part and that behavior absolutely will not continue. I'm not taking on more than I'm responsible for any more.

I'm worried about how to call attention to his lies about contact with the OW without giving away my access to his online account. This has been my best tool to know how much contact they've had.

I could say that he has to give me access to it and have him pull it up right there with me tonight. My fear is that I'm so angry now that I'll make demands that make sense at the time but will push him away. Maybe the best thing is for him to get pushed away.

Why don't you ask to hold onto his cellphone? Any incoming or outgoing calls/texts must be in your presence. Of course, he will have access to phones at work, but if they are LD calls, the company won't be happy at all.

Get a key to his vehicle from him right away. If he is thinking about staying, he might give it to you. He may try to hide a second cellphone in there, so you should have full access to his hiding places.

KLD, I read the other vets say to ignore that question of how do you know. He doesn't need to know how you know. Keep the focus on the fact taht you do know. Reread the vets' posts before you go into this tonight. I apologize for getting into his possible motives earlier. Going down that rabbit hole! Only fog to be found there, and you've probably heard more than your share of that already!

Thanks, Cat, for the reminder to keep the focus on the actions/behaviors and not the blaming/judgments!

(((KLD)))

Hon, at this point, you are not responsible for ANYTHING! Get that through your head. You could have been a sloppy housekeeper, totally ignored him, even a crack addict, but HE HAD THE AFFAIRS! Don't let him forget that. No matter what you've done in the marriage HE had the affairs. YOU didn't break the marriage vows. Nothing else matters. That is ALL this talk is about - him screwing around. Don't let him derail that. In fact, one of your 3 phrases could be 'This isn't about me; it's about what YOU did.' Strong stuff, because it's exactly about what he did.

Thanks for reminding me of basics that I've allowed myself to drift from.

On Sunday I wouldn't tell him where any of my info came from. I did a great job of keeping that to myself or allowing him to come to his own conclusions about where the data came from. Also, I didn't allow him to push any blame towards me. I reminded him several times that "foresaking all others" meant no inappropriate relationships with anyone at any time.

I'm very nervous about tonight's talk. I think I'm more afraid that he will say he wants to work it out and that he will agree to a bunch of stuff that he won't follow through with. I think that will be more difficult than just going forward with a D.

KLD,

Good job on EVERYTHING!!!! Your comment to him on walking out on the conversation if he gets angry is PERFECT!!!! I said that to my husband several times at the beginning and sometimes still have to. It brings him back to reality EVERY time.

You need to read several books, all by Patricia Evans: The Verbally Abusive Relationship, Controlling People, The Verbally Abusive Man:Can He Change. Start with the last one because it will give you some quick understanding of who and what you are dealing with and help you decide if you WANT to try and make this work.

My husband and I are reading these out loud.

I have found that it is almost impossible to use some MB principles when verbal abuse is present. Verbal and Emotional abuse seems to be vrey present in your marriage(as well as mine).

Like yours, my husband seemed to view EVERYTHING that came out of my mouth as a LB.

I am understanding now that we have to address those issues BEFORE we can get to POJA, PORH, LBs and even ENs. We are making progress. BUT.......here's where my advice is I KNOW different than the vets because it it is not conventional to MB wisdom. When you are dealing with abuse, MB principles appear to the abuser as weakness and an opportunity to continue wayward thinking.

Do not Plan A. You have been doing that and it did not work. Do not worry about calling the OW names. Don't go out of your way to do it but don't let it bother you if you do.
Cat is right about everything about how to speak with this abuser.

I can not emphasize enough that you must NOT worry about LBs. That is not an issue right now. It will be IF you are going to rebuild your M. BUT... when he senses that you are trying to be your usual, sensible calm self, he will run right over the top of you. He is completely unimpressed by your logic and your good sense. He will understand your ANGER to some degree though.

Say WHAT you want, ask WHAT you want, show ANY emotion you want. This is important!!!!

It sounds odd, but despite the fact that affairs are abusive, not every WS IS an abusive person.As I read the forums I can see that when a WS is NOT basically an abusive person,that it is possible to start implementing MB principles pretty quickly. ven then the roller coaster ride is pretty wild. But WHEN they are, it makes the situation different. You MUST handle the abuser differently and realize that most of the MB principles will not work yet.

Truth be told, I HATE having to deal with these abuse issues. It would be much easier to get to LBs and ENs, but that's not going to happen yet. Slowly.

This is what I meant by your H not being a common run-of-the-mill cheater. Remember when you talk to him tonight that he is VERY practiced at this. He has been practicing HOW he is going to turn this to his benefit.

YOU ARE DOING A GREAT JOB!!!!! KEEP SAYING WHAT YOU NEED TO SAY!!!

I apologize to you if this advice does not seem to fit and to all vets who might be offended at my advice. I am not able to convey my total depth of thought here.

Talking to an abuser is confusing when you are trting to make sense ofyour life with him. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF!!!!

I am still hopeful of rcovery for the both of you together but either way I KNOW you wil recover.

Praying,
WH2LE

So it sounds like just saying stuff is not something that you're enthusiastic about. That's progress, right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What do you think about what you all were saying earlier about letting him come up with a plan with Jennifer, and then seeing if you would be enthusiastic about that? I would think that plan would include a lot more than just empty words. Including actions like signing that paperwork for you tonight and sending NC letters.

Understandable. Which is why you have to be firmly in control of IF and HOW he gets to come back to your bed. Ever. Never deviate from this position - that now YOU call all the shots if he is to have any chance with you, or he will use it against you. So stay mad. If he wants to stay, make it VERY hard for him to follow the rules. That way he won't forget about them. I've found with D17 that if my punishment rules for her aren't big, 'out there, in your face' things, we all tend to let them slide and forget about them after a few days or weeks. So whatever rules you devise, make them measurable by you and something you can take out and look at once a week to make sure he's honoring them.

I never thought of WH as so much an abuser, but I get in a way he is in an emotional sense. He never says mean and nasty things to me, he doesn't say things to make me feel bad about myself, he doesn't crtiticize me. He never has once done anything to physically hurt me, intimidate me, or frighten me. He isn't really the passive aggressive type, either. I guess he's just a liar about things he doesn't want me to know about and that is abusive behavior. I truly never thought about it in that way.

EO - I like the idea of suggesting that he develop his own plan with Jennifer. I don't know if he will do that or not, but I will suggest it as an option. Not seeking counseling will probably be a deal breaker for me - I haven't made my mind up completely on that one because I want to wait and see how some of the other things go before I decide on that or not as a deal breaker.

I just came from my counseling session. My C pointed a few things out to me - some that I missed and some that I knew but didn't understand. He said that the way I've painted my WH to him he sounds weak, a push-over, not very smart, unable to make good decisions, he's emotionally disconnected, that I'm better and smarter than him, and that he is somehow below me. He did say that some of this may come because I'm angry right now, but these are the things that I'm projecting about him. I didn't realize that I've been painting such a negative picture of him. Some of what he said is true to a certain degree - emotionally disconnected and bad decisions (duh - he had an A with a big time loser). I truly don't think of him as all the negative things he says I've projected. This is something we're going to dig into next week.

He also said that I tend to be assigning more guilt and blame to OW than WH. This is something I was aware of. I'm so angry at my H I could spit nails, but I wish harm to the OW. C said this may go back to the fact that I'm giving WH a pass because "he's not smart enough to know better." I don't really feel that way, but that's how it's coming across to C.

The other thing he suggested is that I start getting more focused back on my work. I've neglected it for weeks now and it's starting to show. I'm stressed about it and I can't afford to lose my job at this time. He suggested that I spend my work day doing my work and don't try to find new ways to catch WH in a lie, worry if he's talking to OW, search for new info, etc. He says that I have enough info and I'm sure I do. If he's going to talk to her I'll know and can deal with it. I think this is good advice, but I seem to be addicted to checking his bank account, his cell phone account, etc every hour or so. Geez. I'm a nutjob, too!!!!!

hi sweet kld,

i think you have been amazing though all of this. you are not a nut case at all!
you are trying to find your way through a most difficult situation that you were tossed into by him.

k, one question i am wondering is, what is it about him that would make you even want to continue to be married to him? you do not have kids. he is not the main bread winner who is providing you with an amazing life style ( sorry guys but ... ) his is a liar. his does not even seem, at this point anyways, to care that he has hurt you to the deepest core your your being.

you seem to be such an amazing compassionate lady with so much going. i hate to see you settle for less than what you deserve.

sorry if this goes against all the mb concepts of keeping m intact but after seeing all you have been through it is something that is going thru my head.

i love cat's info re: repeating this is all about what he has done to you and your m. it is the truth. period.

you are in my thoughts. you are amazing!

hugs ...

I can see how checking and rechecking can become habit-forming; I do it here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But it would definitely help you to get some perspective, step back and breathe and feel healthier, if you distance yourself from the 'tracking' and only do it, say, 3 times a day. C's right; you already have enough evidence. Just work on you, now.

I wouldn't worry too much about your DJ of H at this point. Maybe in a month, if you're still doing it. Let yourself grieve. And it's human nature to put down the other person when you're hurting and wounded, so you feel like you're a worthwhile person. Just make sure it's temporary, to help you through the hard times of the first few weeks.

Abusive? There are all kinds. Some are so mild that their only agenda is to make sure that they have the last say on things, or that you 'understand' they're right. IMO, anyone who manipulates another person enough to hurt that person, for their own gain, is abusive. Because it shows a self-centeredness and cold shoulder to the other person's pain. I only suggest that to you, so that you don't allow your baggage with him to color your vision. He knows your buttons; he knows what makes you cave, care for him, forgive him, doubt yourself - everyone knows that about their spouse. The test is whether someone is willing to use that knowledge for their own gain. Don't let him use it.

Have you let your support group know that tonight is 'the night'? I would.

And good luck! We'll be rooting for you and praying for you tonight!

Thank you mrs_n for your kind words. As for your question - I wonder the same thing, too, quite often. Why would I want to stay with someone who has behaved this way and betrayed me so deeply? So far, the answer is complicated. I do love him. He is so much fun and his sense of humor keeps me laughing all the time when things are good. He used to be thoughtful and caring and I believe he can be again. The last year (just over a year, actually) is the only time since I've known him that he hasn't worked very hard and made good money. He has the ability and the capacity to be an equal financial partner and work with me to build a very comfortable life for us.

On the negative side, he has always been difficult to communicate with. He holds his feelings inside. He has been lying to me for alot longer than I realized. He can be moody and withdrawn, though that just may be his guilt at this point.

So, I see the good in him and think he and I are very compatible, but I'm not sure we can recover from where we are today. Even if he does everything I require, I may still have trouble trusting him. I feel the need to give it that shot, though, because I did marry him with the idea that this was for the rest of my life. If I have to leave the M, I want to be completely certain that I've done everything I can do to make it work. Many have told me that I've already done that - most of the people in my life feel that way because they know ALL the history that's just not possible to put on a message board.

I know for sure that I won't be played again, though. This is his last chance.

KLD, be assured that adultery is the WORST KIND of abuse a spouse can inflict on someone he is supposed to love and protect. It is an act of cruelty that Dr. Harley places in the same category as RAPE or the death of a child. People have nervous breakdowns and commit suicide from this kind of abuse. Not only is there psychological abuse, but he has endangered your health by exposing you to STDs. So don't underestimate adultery, it is WORSE than verbal or physical abuse. It is the WORST KIND of abuse there is.

KLD, I would suggest that you hear him out but see if he will agree to a) send the OW a no contact letter and b) commit to a program of recovery.

Dr Jennifer Chalmers would be the PERFECT one to give y'all a plan and help you get on track.

Here is what needs to happen in order to recover this marriage: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

about forgiveness: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

KLD,

You are NOT a nutjob. You are extremely smart and I cannot tell you how I obsessed over checking up on my FWS. I probably looked like a nutjob sometimes, but you know what, he was my H and I had a right to know these things.

You have a RIGHT to know. If you have had to spy, so WHAT? However, you do have a lot of info. So did I, but you know, after 7 years of recovery, I STILL check up on my H. Things are never the same. My H has not hidden anything from me yet, I have all passwords and access to whatever he does. And it should be that way.

A lot of things will have to change for you two to get into recovery.

It is a good thing tho, to focus on your work. I know how hard that is when you are in the midst of all this. I was very lucky I did not lose my job either. I was much worse off than you are. I could not stop crying, could not sleep or eat for 6 weeks. You are doing great!!!!

It's going to be hard, but try and let things go when you are at work and concentrate on that, especially as you do not know what the future holds at this moment.It might even be a relief to let things go for the time you are at work. Start on YOUR personal recovery, starting today at work.

(((HUGS!!))) KLD, remember that you are WORTHY!!!!!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thanks for your input, Cat. It always helps me to hear what you have to say.

I have let my support group know that he says he will talk to me tonight. They all know that I confronted him on Sunday.

I have my parents, brother, SIL, and 4 girlfriends who have been wonderful to me. My family is all just furious with him now and my friends all hate him. They make bad jokes about him and the trash he took up with - at least it gives me a short bit of comic relief.

KLD, also, you will have to continue snooping on him for the time being. THAT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST. You have to protect yourself. You are under assault and this is your method of protection. You can't very well give up your only defense while you are under fire.

Melody - thanks for the links. I hear what you're saying about how abusive an affair is - I'm living it now and never understood it before. Having to have an STD screening was the most humiliating and degrading experience. I wanted to just crawl in a hole that day.

I've had 2 sessions with Jennifer and she helped me a great deal. I'm going to suggest that we work with her on a plan. I also plan to have some examples of NC letters to give to him and see if he will send one. Someone suggested this to me a while back when it came time for confrontation, but I don't remember who.

I have to say that if his plan for recovery is that we do it alone together with me trusting what he says that will be a deal breaker for me.

Miss M - question for you about your recovery...

So your H gave you all his passwords and let you look at his phone and did all the right things there. How were you ever sure he didn't have a secret email account that he only looked at from his work computer? How were you ever sure he didn't have a secret cell phone that was a "throw away" type? How did you know that he didn't make calls from work? These are things I'm worried about getting past with my H.

Geez. I'm a nutjob, too!!!!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


No, you are not. You are a good person who is trying to make the best of a bad situation. Of course, you already know that, I was just confirming it to you.

If you read back over the last four or five days you have posted, you will see a person who really wants to do well, but is struggling to make it work.

I have been praying - for me, my parents (who are taking this really, really hard), my WH, and also OW. I've had a hard time praying for her, but I've managed to do it some. I guess my prayer may get cancelled out, though, when after I say "Amen" I wish she'd get run over by a bus?????? LOL.

It's difficult to know how to help right now. It looks like you have hard time knowing what to do. I would guess you go back and forth between wanting to do all you can to make it work, and wanting to kick him to the curb.

Keep in mind..........

That you don't have to make all your decisions tonight. In fact, it might be well to just talk, and go into this discussion knowing you will not decide until you have more time to think.

There are two different recoveries - The recovery of your marriage, and your personal recovery. You have plenty of time to think about your marriage, and what you want to do with it. Most of us want that resolved first - but you really do have some time. It may be that he won't be honest tonight, and that he won't help the marriage recover.

That has nothing to do with your wellbeing. Oh, it does affect the short term stress, but think about this for a few minutes. Part of this is about you finding out who he is, but part is about you finding out who you are.

You have learned a lot about yourself thus far. Some of it is good, some perhaps not so good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Think about who you are, and what kind of a person you want to be. Use this information to determine how you interact with him. What will most serve your purposes tonight? Anger, or calm?

It may help to outline for us what you know, and what you see as your choices. Of course, only on your break, we wouldn't want you to do it on company time.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Many of us are praying for you. I hope you feel God's help as you prepare.

SS

You will never know those things. There is no way to be sure. You just have to continue to spy your [censored] off, KLD, because eventually he will screw up and you will catch him.

Here is a sample no contact letter from SAA:

[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

KLD,

Melodylane is right, you will never know these things. I am fortunate, or unfortunate if you will that my H has no work computer, he is a musician, and for a long time I was more worried about his gigs and his cell phone than anything else. I am much more computer literate than my H. He has never used our computer for any of the affair stuff. I went to just about every gig he had for about 2 years after we started recovery, heck, before we started recovery really.

I have relaxed on that, but I will still show up unexpectedly. I still give the fish eye to any strange woman that approaches my H. LOL. I keep a diligent watch to protect my marriage.

Trust comes with time, honesty, and transparency. Oh, and no contact. I don't know of any marriages that recovered when there was continued contact. That happened with me, and it really set back our recovery, it took much longer.

Anyway, enough about me. You are doing great and I am amazed at your self control.

When will you start on your plan of personal recovery?

Love in Christ,
Miss M

KLD,

Maybe I am off base here, but I am worried about a counselor who is so concerned about the negative way he thinks you are painting your husband. It seems to me that his concern should be about YOU and your self-image at this point.

I think you are doing wonderfully in every respect.

I only ask you to consider the possibility of your husband being abusive. Honestly, he sounds EXACTLY like my H. I have never been concerned for my physical welfare either and he can make me laugh like no one else. when he's good he's FANTASTIC!!! When the MC asked why I was staying with him I said exactly what you did. We are very compatible in many ways.

I have been very frustrated because the MB principles have been so difficult to implement. Once the 2 of us began to see HIM as being an emotionally abusive personality, we began starting to make some headway(slow to be sure).

It is my hope that we will ultiamtely have an MB marriage.

My H did NOT have an A because his needs were not being met. He had it because he is abusive.It has been all-important for me to understand this. He likes to have secrets and to always have "one up" on someone. I am not the cause of his abuse but I AM the recipient. It has been difficult, nigh impossible, for him to use POJA because of these tendencies. But I am hopeful now.

Praying for you tonight.

You are not a nutjob. YOU are behaving normally in an abnormal stuation. I applaud you KLD.

WH2LE

I think I mis-represented the context that my C said I was painting my H in a negative light. What he said was that I was focusing on so much negativity about someone else (WH) that I was neglecting the things I needed to do for myself. He didn't necessarily mean that I needed to look for positive things in WH. The biggest part of our conversation today was my anger, where it is coming from, and how to express it appropriately. The second thing was doing things to make myself whole again and focus on immediate needs such as my job, my health, etc. He gave the same advice that the M is important, but I don't have to decide today or tomorrow how I'm going to handle it.

When I got home tonight a little bit later than normal, WH wasn't home. He'd gone to get a latte. I had stopped at the store to get a quick and easy dinner to fix. I wasn't hungry, really, but I knew he'd want something. He never called me and I didn't call him all day long.

When he returned from the coffee shop, he said he didn't know what time I'd be home (I was about 45 minutes - 1 hour later than normal) so he went ahead and fixed himself a sandwich. That seemed so selfish to me - we always eat dinner together unless there's a phone call to confirm that one will be very late. At least I didn't have to prepare anything and clean up, and I wasn't hungry, but it still seemed so insensitive given our current circumstances.

So, I put on my pjs and sat on the couch waiting for him to open the conversation he promised. He took out his digital camera and downloaded photos from his work site today and showed them to me. From there, he was up and down doing one thing then another. I stayed waiting on the couch. Finally at 9PM he said he was tired and was going to bed.

I broke my rule again. I had promised myself that this is his deal to fix and that I should wait on him to do his part. In my head I had decided that if I don't hear from him by Thursday night I'm filing for D on Friday. Something inside me felt the need to speak to him. I went into his room and just told him that I had been expecting to discuss his A tonight as he had promised last night and this morning. He said he is still trying to work out in his head what he needs to say to me. I told him he needs to understand that it looks like he's trying to get his story straight. I also told him that I realize verbalizing his thoughts is difficult, but from here forward he must get that fixed - not just for this situation but for the rest of our life together if there is to be a future for us. I told him he didn't do himself any favors by making a promise to talk and then not even mentioning it. I told him I will not mention it again and that from here forward the ball is completely in his court. He did say that he wants to keep the M and he's trying to figure out how to tell me what I need to know.

I looked at his text records again tonight - there are about 20 more from last night. I can't tell yet if there has been contact today or not. I think I'm going to have a huge problem with NC here. I won't be the first on that one, though, will I?

"The biggest part of our conversation today was my anger, where it is coming from, and how to express it appropriately"

Well, I would venture a guess your anger is because hubby is lying to you about contact with the OW, continuing constant contact, and telling you he has to work out in his mind how to have the promised talk that he lied about, while all the while continuing contact with some sleaze. Not being a "counselor", I'm just throwing that out there.

KLD, I think you have very good instincts about this and are handling it brilliantly. There is absolutely nothing wrong with telling him about your disappointment in his failure to discuss this. You did exactly the right thing.

He needs to know that he cannot just brush this off as if nothing happened and I have a feeling that is what he wants to do. He is hoping it will die back down so he can go back to business as usual. You are RIGHT to pursue this with him.

Please continue to trust your instincts because they are DEAD ON, KLD. Now is the time to be firm and honest about your feelings and you have done a good job of that.

I do think that you will have a rough time with nc if it comes to that. I hope I am wrong about that.

I mistook your slowness to confront him as WEAKNESS, and I can see now that I misjudged you. You are not weak, you are just very METHODICAL and very determined. You are doing GREAT and you are doing great under DURESS.

KLD, just wanted to pop in and let you know I'm thinking of you. (((KLD)))

He explained that anger is a secondary emotion driven by some other feeling (I've heard this before in a completely different context). In my case now, it's the hurt I feel about what he's done and is doing that's driving my anger. I'm showing anger without expressing the hurt that is the root of it. He told me that I must express the anger, but I must also express the hurt. All I've said about the hurt to WH so far is that I'm hurt. C says I should be working toward getting it all out on the table, not just part of it. He did say that I can't do it all at once most likely and that much of this will come in stages. That's what most others here have said, too. I'm not trying to defend my C, just trying to clarify what he's saying.

He has truly been trying to keep me focused on me and how I'm feeling. He listens to details of what has happened and then we move to what I'm doing and feeling. He helped me prioritize the most important things I need to focus on today because I told him that is a concern for me at this time - being unable to focus on important pieces of my life.

I don't know if I'll stay with him or not - it kind of depends on where things go with my M. If we end up working with Jennifer, then I'll probably drop the IC at least for a while.

KLD,
I am so sorry that tonight did not go well. I was hoping that at the very least there would be SOME discussion and at least a small admission of wrong-doing on his part.

I am thinking that he has NO intention of telling you anything or having any kind of discussion with you.

I also think he will be VERY surprised when you file for D. He clearly thinks you are going to do nothing at all.

And I am sure he DOES want to keep the M..as long as he can keep the rest of it too. He is trying to figure out how to tell you what you WANT to hear, NOT what you need to hear. My H told me that he used to figure out just what to say so that I would believe we were ok and he could keep going down his chosen path. He correctly labeled it as "patronizing".

Please don't fret about breaking your promise to yourself. The only one who has broken promises that matter here is your H.

I don't think you really can make any mistakes at this point. Anything you do is going to be just fine. Talk to him if you want, don't talk to him if you don't want. Lb or don't LB. Take care of yourself first and foremost. He is not putting forth ANY effort here at all. Not even giving you the decency of a conversation.

I know it may not feel like it right now with the heavy pain of infidelity weighing you down, but you are a wonderful person who deserves the best in life.

But you know, the tide might still turn. I can not help but think that if he sees that you are not going to take this lying down that he may have a change of heart

I am pleased that I misunderstaood what your C was saying to you.

Prayers and bleesings coming to you,
WH2LE

Thanks EO and Melody - I think I did almost wait too long to confront because I am so analytical and just kept wanting more data. I don't think I've hurt myself by doing it the way I've done it - at least I'm comfortable with where I am in the process so far. I'm not happy with his responses and his continued lack of honesty and I hope I deal with that the right way as time goes on.

The one thing I need to say out loud is that I have a very tight window of opportunity for him at this time. He has been so deceitful over the past year with his work history and how he's used my support and loving nature to further his ability to carry on this A. I have almost no tolerance for any error on his part going forward. I haven't shared that with him yet, however I will do so when we do finally talk again. I will not tolerate continued contact with this woman or any of the others. I will go to D so fast his head will spin because this deceit has gone so far, so deep, and he has been so selfish and thoughtless.

KLD,
Remember that not being able to concentrate and having difficulty with prioritizing is a side effect of stress, ANY kind of stress.

It will continue to be difficult to carry on as usual. That's why it's so important to take care of yourself.

WH2LE

I need to get away so badly and have some time to relax and enjoy being away from my stress. One of my friends has suggested we get together in MIA in March for a long weekend to go to a spa and lay on the beach. I understand the need to not leave a WH alone to get with OW again, does anyone have any ideas on other things that I could try if this isn't a good option.

I'd actually thought he was going to want D and if that was the case it probably wouldn't matter if I went away for a weekend. Now it seems that I may need to keep him in my sight but that would mean no weekend getaway to pamper myself and reconnect with my girlfriend who has been so very understanding and supportive through this.

IF and I know this is a big IF, he wants to work on the M, the two of you can go to the spa or some other kind of vacation place for a weekend or more. Dr. Harley actually recommends this. My H and I did it because we already had a 2 week trip planned and truthfully, I think it saved us.

AND....if you are going to file for D or go tp Plan B...then that would be the PERFECT time to go on a trip with girlfriends.

I say start planning your trip. Win/Win for you.

WH2LE

Hon, why do you have to keep an eye on him? It will NOT be your job to police him. If you have to, take out a loan and hire the PI full time to do that for you. If you try to keep tabs on him for the next 1, 3, 5, 10 years, you will only succeed in driving yourself crazy. You deserve better. Let someone else do the policing, and live the live you need to live, for you. You deserve it.

KLD, normally when someone here drags their feet like that,[or what appears to be foot dragging] it is because their EMOTIONS are driving the ship and they are paralyzed with fear. This is why so many were pushing you to act. The ones who usually fare the BEST are the ones whose logic and reason is in control, which I believe is the case with you. I think you will come out of this just fine, no matter what the result. I am not so worried about you today.

hi sweet k,

well here is my 1 cents worth - i think you should go on a mini trip to anywhere asap for your mental health and well being.

if he contacts the warthog ow it is not as though it is the first time and most likely will not be the last time. your love for him has not stopped him in the past. you living in the same house with him has not stopped him in the past.

i know this is most likely not in accordance with mb but gee, when do you count? you have had more patience than a saint and you are not the one who is causing all this discord in the m.

it seems he would like to just bury the a in the kitty litter hoping you will just let it go as though this is normal.

please think of yourself and take some time for you. you deserve this.

kld, i have been so impressed with how you have been so civil to him i have learned so much from you. i started reading your thread way back when i saw some of me in the issues your dh had in his claim he could not get over some things in the past.

along the way it became obvious he and i had zero in common but you have taught me so much about compassion. you are amazing in your strength and maturity in how you have handled this awful situation he brought upon you.

please take some time for yourself. you deserve it. go and get pampered for a few days. you so deserve it.

hugs ....

What would happen if you filed for separation vs. divorce? Can that be done?

Thanks to everyone for the support. Looking forward to tonight to hear what he may say.

Valentine - I don't know about sep vs D in GA. I can do some research because that may be an option I should check into. Thanks.

Many of you have said - and I agree - that he is getting his story straight or doing some maneuvering with OW before he talks to me. I'm trying to decide if I go ahead and start exposing to OW family now or wait to hear what he says first. Also, is a letter or a phone call more effective to OW mother and siblings? I'm thinking a letter is better because I don't want to get flustered on the phone or backed into a corner. Thoughts on timing and method?

Also, last contact w/ OW#2 was 2/1 and nothing since. I don't have her name or her address - just cell phone number. Should I leave this one alone or go ahead and expose now or tomorrow?

Expose now, and by phone.

Just state the facts.

You can do this.

~ Marsh

KLD, I have been thinking about this. You can read these ideas and take away what might work for you.

Your husband is saying he has NC OW#1, yet you can see online that he texting.

Ask for his phone when he gets home. If he gives it to you, say that you want him to set up on online account to monitor activity. He might say he already has. Have him access it in front of you. Say from this day forward, for every text message that appears on the online counter, you'd better find a text message still saved on his phone.

If he argues privacy, tell him he has lost all rights to privacy.

While you have his phone, get in your car. Drive to a park. Call the OW#1 (from his phone so she will pick up.) Ask her what he's promised her. Tell her what's been going on, how he is confessing that he is plotting a story. Tell her you'd like the truth from her. She may be anxious to tell you the truth. She may be anxious to lie. Or your husband may have asked her to clam up. But give it a shot.

Ask every question you've had on your mind. If he has been promising to divorc you and marry her, appeal to her moral (?) side. Were you aware he has a life insurance policy out on me (to you $150K is not a lot, but in her book it will be.) Did he speak of your death at anytime? Mention that you had an illness, etc.?

No OW wants to think that their lover is a potential killer -- unless they are depraved of course. Get her wheels turning.

Appeal to the side of her that wants a smooth divorce. Tell her you have thought of granting him a divorce and making it easy on him, but that he has his name on your retirement fund. Say if she can convince him to sign off on those, you hate him enough to give him a quick divorce. But otherwise you will fight it, and it will cost both sides $1000s of dollars, plus drag the divorce out on and on. Mention that if you have to go this route to get his name off your monies, you will have to drag her into court too. Any money he gave her with a check, on a debit card, etc. will have to be repaid to you. But if she can get him to sign off, you would let it go in order to start a fresh life. (How much of this is true or isn't? Doesn't matter.)

Offer her a carrot. Say you suspect he is seeing one, maybe two, other women, but that you aren't sure. So far they are just phone numbers. If she succeeds in convincing him to sign off, you will give her all the data you have on those two. She could call them herself and find out.

At the end of the conversation, ask her permission to hold onto her number and contact her in the future. You will need that permission in case your husband suggests she file for harrassment, etc., in the future.

I wish you the best.

I recommend wait. If he stonewalls, and you choose D, then it really won't matter.

Threadjack -
Hi Mel, you are doing Great! Keep it up.
I think the help KLD is getting on this thread is wonderful.

KLD,
Unless you think he will move swiftly to take, or control your assets, there is probably no hurry for you to make a decision. What I mean is, don't worry so much about what he will do, and what you will do. Relax (easy for me to say) a little bit. Spend your time tonight LISTENING, not thinking how you will react, or reply. Try to get inside his head a little bit. Use your time to draw him out, and get him to talk. If he is trying, this will help you see that. IF he is not, it will give him enough rope to hang himself.

You really are doing well considering what is happening. If you can concentrate on what he is saying, and not on what you want, I think you will get much further in conversation.

So far it doesn't look good (continued texting.) I know many people who had a difficult time giving up smoking, but they really wanted to quit, and they did quit over time. Maybe he really will repent, we just don't know at this point. What he has been doing really is an addiction, and even if he means well, it won't be easy for him to give it up.

You haven't made up your mind yet, so you may as well use all your listening skills to draw him out, and not worry so much about what you will say in return. Your side can be as simple as "I'll take a few days to think about what you have said, and I'll get back to you."

Perhaps I should be angry with him also, but I feel sorry for him, bordering on pity. If he doesn't make this work, he will regret it forever. Forever is a very long time to be haunted.

I don't feel sorry for you. I wish it were different, but I have faith you will be fine no matter what. I do respect you, and believe in you.

Are you doing OK today?

SS

I think the longer you wait to expose the more time your WS has to make exposure ineffective. I am highly suspicious of all the contact between WS and ow. All the more time to make you out to be the bad guy.

Exposure without warning and without delay is the most effective.

Just MVHO. Take care KLD, you are doing great so far.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

edited to add that I agree with MelodyLane that you should wait until after you have had your talk with WS.

KLD, can you stop on your way home and pick up a tape recorder? Place it on a bookshelf or something, and just keep it running all night, with new tapes every time he leaves the room so they won't run out?

I love valentine's ideas.

Plus, if you're afraid you'll get flustered, I don't have a problem with the letters. But make sure you send them certified, so they have to sign for them and you have a receipt. You never know what you might need in court.

I tried to call OW#2 and got VM. Didn't leave a msg. I think I'm going to wait and see what he says tonight before exposing to OW#1 family. The deal with her is that I know so much about her and I'm not certain exposure there will help anyway. She is such a true low-life, that her family very well may be just like her. If so, they won't care any more than she does about my family.

Anyway, I have alredy exposed to all my family. My mom is going to write him a letter. Question about this - she is very angry and very hurt with him about this, too. She is willing to rebuild her relationship with him if he and I work this out. Should she tell him he is still welcome in our family if he does his part to restore our M? Should she just tell him how disappointed and hurt she is? She wants to write this letter and I don't mind if she does. I just don't want it to hurt instead of help. If we D, she can say whatever she wants and I don't care!!!

Cat - I already have a small recorder. I plan to use it tonight if I can get it in place when he is out of the room.

SS, I don't understand, why not expose? Isn't that a critical part of Plan A? He's still wayward. Why not give their marriage the best possible chance?

I agree, let him explain his position tonight and THEN make a decision about how you want to proceed.


Hi ss! So glad to see you are posting to KLD! You are a great help! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

earsopen, I would not do this today for a couple of reasons. First off, it will be the subject of their discussion tonight if she does and can only get in the way. He will be angry and right now she needs to have a calm, rational discussion with him about their future.

Secondly, she has not yet decided IF she will stay married or not. [I realize there are some exposures that will take place regardless of that status] If she does decide to stay married, her exposure list will be contingent upon his adherence to no contact.

In short, she needs to decide which way she is going to go before she compiles the exposure list. Nor does she need that distraction before her talk tonight. I think it would be better from a strategic standpoint to wait one day.


She has not yet decided IF she wants to stay married. She may decide it is not in her best interest.

E_O,
You are correct in that exposure is important, and that usually it will give the marriage a better chance.

My thoughts are along these lines......

We know he has been involved with more than one OW. If I am reading KLD correctly, she wants HONESTY from HIM before SHE will commit to the marriage. I don't believe exposure will make him any more honest. This doesn't look to me like a case of needs not being met. It doesn't look like someone failing to protect boundaries, and accidentally falling for someone else. What it does look like is someone who lives a secret second life because they want it that way, and who is even now trying to figure out how to keep things the way they are.
I hope this is not true, but I believe she will find out when she talks to him tonight. If it is true, I don't believe she will want to keep him, and if she does not, then exposure for saving the marriage will be moot.

SS

I'd give him ONE shot to come clean tonight. He's had plenty of time to figure out what he NEEDS to say to you. If he doesn't, I'd go straight to Plan D. If he does, THEN you can give him a list of your requirements for recovery. Sexymamabear had a great list for her FWH. He was more than willing to meet every one her requirements and THEN some. Remember, his actions in the long run... not his words... will be all the proof you need of his sincerity. Tonight, the LEAST he needs to do it own up to his adultery and ask what he can do.

thanks, guys, for explaining, that makes a lot of sense. I am so glad that KLD has this support. And after I posted that, I saw KLD had decided that way, too.

and while I'm here (((KLD)))

I'd give him ONE shot to come clean tonight. He's had plenty of time to figure out what he NEEDS to say to you. If he doesn't, I'd go straight to Plan D.

There was a time I would have agreed with you 100%. And I should say again, that It doesn't look good for him. However, I have seen cases on MB where the WS didn't commit right at first, wouldn't agree to counseling, had a hard time giving up OP, but did all these things over time, and the marriage was recovered.

I am kind of assuming KLD's position (needing honesty from him to continue) based on things she has said in many posts over time. There is always a chance (even if very small) that he can come around over time, even if he isn't ready yet. I suggest KLD listen tonight, and make decisions later so that she doesn't have any regrets.

It's easy to say "I feel the same today, as I did yesterday, so I think I'll go ahead with a D."
It's more difficult to say "Did I ask for a D yesterday? Ha, Ha, I was just kidding, lets work on our M."
Things can be said in the heat of the moment that can double or triple the work of recovery.

To everyone -
This being a public forum, there are sometimes conflicting views. Don't let that keep you from posting. Your ideas are valuable. I think the suggestions that have been posted are very good ones, and helpful to her, depending on what she chooses to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SS

Okay, I see that. But don't you agree that at the LEAST he needs to ADMIT his adultery? Did I miss it where he's done that already? If I did, then forget what I said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Unless they are depraved? She is an OW. I woldn't make any assumptions about her moral values. I for one wouldn't give an OP a reason (or 150 thousand of them) to wish for my death.

KLD: I think federal law only prevents you from assigning more than 50% of your retirement benefits to a non-spouse beneficiary. You may be able to do 50% without any consent (or knowledge).

- WG

PM -
Okay, I see that. But don't you agree that at the LEAST he needs to ADMIT his adultery? Did I miss it where he's done that already? If I did, then forget what I said.

KLD -
I asked him again if he has anything to say and he again said he's sorry. He said he does have some things to say to me, but he wants to think it through before he does.

We get these things 2nd hand - so it's hard to know his exact words. (NO disprect to KLD intended) I would take his saying he is sorry as a kind of admission, but I am just hearing "sorry," not seeing evidence of it. That's what bothers me the most. From what we can see, it's not an out and out admission, but more of a back handed one. Kind of like saying "You are not as dumb as I thought you were." It's better than being called stupid, but not quite the real thing either.

PM, I don't like what he is doing at all. It looks like he doesn't care, and that the A continues. I really hope KLD doesn't show her hand tonight (or any time soon.) I hope she keeps her sources hidden. If she lets him do most of the talking it will tell her a lot more than if she confronts again. He is on trial, and he has to know that. IF he continues to lie, and hide things, then she doesn't have any thing at all (right now.)It's not to say that good won't come of it ever, or that she ought to file for a D. It means he is not repentant, and it will be a lot of work if she still wants to work on the marriage.

At that point, she will get to decide what she wants to do. She doesn't have to tell HIM anything yet one way or the other.

He could say -

"I can do whatever I want, you can't tell me what to do. I will continue to see whoever I want, whenever I want."

or

"Yes, I was wrong, but I have stopped contact with OW, and I want to work on the marriage."

or

" I am so sorry for what I did. I know I hurt you, and there is no excuse for it. I have continued to contact OW, and I can't seem to quit. Please help me, I feel so lost. I want to work on the marriage, I want to make things right."

Of course there could be variations on these -

The easiest thing for KLD to say, is a simple "Thanks for talking to me, I'll think about all of this, and get back to you in a few days."

If pressed, she can say "I'm not sure what I want, and I don't want to talk about it until I do know."

KLD, I don't mean to talk about you as if you are not here. Hopefully these exchanges will be of some help to you. I am only giving general suggestions, you should modify to fit your style and circumstances.

SS

I like this! Gives her time to let it all sink in and really think about what she wants to do after hearing what he says.

PM, you are very good help!!

Keep posting...........

These are great suggestions and insights. Thanks so much. I do plan to say as little as I can. I also do plan to not make any big decisions tonight.

I did get an admission from him - I guess I didn't post it. I asked how long he'd been sleeping with her (edited to make me not look like a really big potty mouth..). He said he doesn't know because he didn't keep a log.

Yesterday I asked if he had used condoms and he said no.

I do have admissions, so now I need to hear what he has to say. We've had dinner and I'm about to get off the computer in hopes he will approach me about this. I will not bring it up tonight again if he doesn't do it. Like you all said - actions speak louder than words. Even though I'm looking for his words right this minute, the act of opening up will be a good first step.

Thanks again for all your help and especially your prayers.

KLD,

I too, LOVE the idea of saying you need some time to think about things. PERFECT!! It not only gives you time to think, it also gives him a taste of his own medicine(please excuse the slight desire to see a wee bit of payback).

Praying,
WH2LE

Well, the talk did happen tonight. He started it. Things were rocky at the start. I managed to never raise my voice and keep my cool even when he told me things that hurt. I did cry some, but not too much.

I eventually had to admit some of how I got my info. I basically said that alot of info is available online (which is true) and much of it came that way. I admitted to hiring a PI - figured no real harm in that since he pretty much already figured that out though he didn't know for sure. I had to tell him I have phone records, but I told him I called the phone co and they sent me some of the bills. He doesn't know I have access to his online acct.

He said he does want to work things out. Agrees to MC. Agrees to STD testing. Said he was getting rid of his old cell phone and will only use the new one he has provided by his new company. He promises she will not have access to the number and that he will bring the phone into the house every night. He still didn't own up to all the communication between them this week, though he did admit to some of it. He admitted giving her money, but said it wasn't much. He agreed to go through his bank records with me this weekend.

He wasn't very emotional and it seemed like he was choosing the M because it was the best option, not because it's really what he wants. I told him it seemed that way and he said that's not really how he feels. He said he is happy that I'm willing to try to work it out. I told him I couldn't make promises that I can get over this but that I will try. He told me that if I want a D, he will be hurt but understand and he wouldn't fight me over anything I want in the settlement.

I taped our conversation, but haven't been able to listen to it yet to see if it came out clearly or not. I had to hide it under the couch, so who knows if it came out or not.

I'm skeptical that he will be able to follow through with this, but I'm going to give it a chance. I told him that because of his history of lying about this woman, that one mis-step and I was filing for D at that point. This is his last chance and he knows it.

He said he truly was shocked at the things I found out about her history. He didn't know any of it - so he says. He said he was relieved that this is out in the open and he's very aware of what a huge mistake he made and what he almost lost.

Admitted to the porn and said he will stop that. Said he didn't look at it much. I actually guessed he must be looking at porn online if he was calling 800 sex numbers, so I asked and he admitted.

He agreed to share any info that I ask for from here forward. I promised that as he becomes transparent, the questions will slow down and eventually we will trust again.

Again, I probably talked too much, but I had to ask alot of questions to get info out of him. He wasn't so opposed to giving the info, just didn't quite know how to do it, I think. He did answer every question I asked. I don't think he told the complete truth every time and when I thought so I said so. In some cases he amended his answer slightly, but in most cases he stuck to his story.

So, that is my lengthy update. I don't know if we will survive, but I guess we're going to try. I know I will need advice moving forward. I am very concerned about contact with OW. He did agree to write a NC letter, let me approve and mail it.

Wow! Glad you got to finally have the conversation. But what if he was "addicted" to her and he goes through withdrawls, it will take time to get her out of his system. Will you be able and willing to help him through that?

kld, how do you feel? how's your self-care?

I forgot what papers you wanted him to sign, but is this the right time, while he's acting cooperative?

(((KLD)))

I will be willing to help him through withdrawal if he does his part of communication. I asked him last night if he thought he would miss her and go through a withdrawal period. He said he didn't think so if we could start right away working on us. I think he doesn't understand what's going to happen to him - I know because I've been here reading. If not for this information, I'd not know to expect withdrawal.

I told him again this morning that the truth - no matter what it is or how it hurts - will not stop recovery but the lies will kill us. He says he understands, but he's in such a pattern of lying that I don't know if he will be able to stop it or not.

He said he doesn't really have feelings for her, but he might be only saying that to spare my feelings. He said he was so unhappy with his life that her place was just a chance to be somewhere else.

EO - someone suggested that I could get him to sign paperwork changing my 401K and life insurance beneficiaries while we were working through this. I think I'm going to hold off on that for now.

As for me, I'm okay. Kind of shakey, though, and wishing I could take some time off work. I've let things slide a little far at work and I need to get back on track here. That's adding to my stress level. My Crohn's Disease is acting up still, though it's not an every day occurrence. I'm taking my medication for that regularly and waiting to find out when I can start the stronger drug that will be an IV treatment every 2 weeks. When I can get that started I should start feeling much better. Stress makes the Crohn's worse, but it doesn't cause a flare up. This flare up was going to happen, the stress in my life just probably made it worse and last longer.

KLD, I am so glad that you are so proactive about taking care of your health. I think your IC would be very proud, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My mom has Sjorn's disease, which is very similar to Chron's, and she has made a lot of good steps but is still working to get the level of treatment she needs. It is still very debilitating to her, but somehow she is still finding it within her to fight it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

KLD, here are some must reads for you, but I would STRONGLY SUGGEST that you get coaching from Steve HArley. Your H can speak to Steve one and one and he can help you both make a PLAN.

Will he send a no contact letter to her?

Surviving Infidelity: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

another great article:
Requirements for Recovery from an Affair


Dear Dr. Harley,

I discovered my husband's affair in May. He was very repentant, ended it and has been working very hard on our marriage ever since. I was not familiar with Marriage Builders at the time and I just followed my instincts. I suppose we are in recovery.

But our communication skills are almost non-existent. We only talk about things that are "safe." My husband’s idea of dealing with his affair is to put it behind us. I need to talk about it to heal. I am still having nightmares and sleeping little. I know nothing about this woman, including her name. He has refused to give me the information because he feels it is over so what difference would it make now. He has agreed to counseling but has been dragging his feet.

Our communication skills are so poor that I can't even bring up his affair for fear of "rocking the boat." He will not read any books or discuss the reasons for his affair with me. I am terrified it will happen again.

We went for a few counseling sessions over a year ago (before affair, communication issues) and it was a disaster. It was so much psycho-babble that neither of us could stand it. Where should we go from here?

Please advise.

K. R.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear K. R.,

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bc
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

EO - I didn't know about your mom's disease - actually I've never even heard of it. Seems funny I wouldn't since I've been dealing with Crohn's for 14 years. It's difficult to get some of these things under control sometimes. I hope your mom will find ways to improve so it's not so debilitating for her.

Melody, I've had 2 sessions with Jennifer already. Would you suggest Steve over her? Or because maybe WH would possibly better relate to a man? I had planned to set up some time with Jennifer, but am not opposed to Steve at all.

He said he will send a NC letter. I don't know if he will follow up on that or if I will have to lead that effort. If he doesn't initiate it, I do plan to remind him of his promise to do it.

He still contends he hasn't communicated with OW at all since Monday. I know this to be untrue. I confronted him again this morning and he says there have been no text messages. His cell account said otherwise first thing this morning. I printed it off. Went in a few minutes ago again and the password doesn't work any more. So, he figured out that I might have access to his online account. I'm not sure how to handle this one at all. I called him a few minutes ago and asked if he had communicated with her today and he asked if I knew something I wasn't telling him. I said that his past behavior makes me know in my gut that he is still talking to her. He said he will show me anything I want to look at tonight. I reminded him that by tonight he will be able to delete anything that he doesn't want me to see. He said he wouldn't clean anything up (yeah, right.) I told him it feels like he is setting himself up to continue contact just under the radar so I won't know. He promises that this isn't the case - I know a lie when I hear one, now though, and I'm not sure how to handle this one.

I would poke around this comment if I were you.

talking points:

1. What behaviors/circumstances are likely to create a happy life?


2.HOW might a person's INTEGRITY and SELF RESPECT contribute to creating a happy life?

3. What joy might come from standing in the sunshine of truth instead of hiding in the shadows of lies?

..... In other words .... engage in a conversation that is about ideas, principles, personal values .... and for this one conversation avoid all the ins/outs of his affair .... have a deep and personal conversation about the meaning of life.

Report back !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just tell him you have been using a PI service and the spy technology PIs use these days is nothing he will be able to outsmart. Tell him that is all you are going to say on the matter and the rest is up to him. Let that little morsel float around in his brain for awhile.

I forgot you had counseled with her. I would stick with her.


I would use the template in Surviving an Affair on pg 58. But this is all for naught if he is staying in contact and lying about it.


Tell him when he gets home that you know he is lying and ask for an explanation. Tell him this is impossible if he intends on lying to you. Ask him for ALL his passwords.

Everytime you catch him lying, lay it out there.

because ... you need to get a ~read~ on his character ... if he ever thinks about his life/happiness in any way other than moment-to-moment gratification.

If he is only a moment-to-moment sort of guy - he is a very poor risk for future fidelity.

Following is my letter to OW mother. It may sound too needy or it may make OWM feel defensive about her D... Please offer critiques if you have time.

Dear OWM,

My name is KLD and I’m the wife of WH. WH and I have been married just over seven years. My husband and my marriage are very important to me.

Your daughter, OW, and my husband have been having an affair. I’ve recently discovered this affair and have confronted him with what I know. He has chosen to stop the affair, and together, he and I are trying to recover our marriage.

Our recovery will not be possible if contact from your daughter continues. I’m writing you in hope that you will be willing to assert a mother’s influence to help your daughter step away from my husband so we can work on our marriage without interference from her. I’m hopeful that you also value marriage and understand my strong desire to use every avenue available to me to save mine.

I have no idea if you are open to speaking to your daughter about this situation or not, but I humbly ask for your help. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for everything you can and will do.

Sincerely,

He's trying to cake-eat. He's still lying. If he's sincere, then he'll give up ALL passwords to EVERYTHING. You might remind him about the difference between privacy and secrecy. There should be NO secrets. He KNOWS you know. Amazing that he thinks you'll buy his lies after everything you exposed to him.

Maybe time for Plan B?

Pepper - I agree with your idea. I will open the conversation on this topic. It's one we used to have alot when we were first married. I do believe my WH gets it at his core, but he is admittedly out of control right now.

I reminded him this morning that the truth might make me angry or hurt, but the lies will kill the M. I also reminded him that this is his last chance - next step is D if the lies continue.

KLD,

Well, your WS is obviously still in contact if he changed his password.

I agree with PM, you need to get all of his passwords, just as a start in recovery.

God Bless, you have done an awesome job, and are in my prayers.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

I think the letter is just fine.

I would demand that the NC letter be written, signed, and delivered tonight - by both of you. Of course, I'm sure by now he has told he 'has to' write her a letter, so just ignore it. Sorry if that hurts, but it's what I believe.

I would demand all his passwords and when he gives them to you, go immediately to the website or wherever you're getting the information, and test them. If he refuses to give them to you, tell him to pack his bags and leave.

I would demand a key to his car.

If you have to tell him the truth about how you get your information, just make it plain that you will hereonin have complete access to every piece of electronics he has, or he will leave.

Sorry if that's harsh, but he's obviously thinking he's outsmarting you. You can't live like that. I know you love him, but I see an awful lot of you saying 'well, I was going to do that, but I'm going to hold off for awhile.' IMO, that is very dangerous thinking, and to H is a wide open net that he can sneak through anything he wants, and he knows it.

Can you relay your conversations to your B and SIL and M, and ask them if it sounds like he's manipulating you?

^ He is attempting to play you with that statement above. He does not think he'll miss her because he doesn't plan to stop contact with her..and he hasn't, which you have proof of...If he can get you comfortable enough to believe he is working on your M, he is probably thinking you will back off some and he can continue on with the A...

I would be concerned about the fact that he has a cell phone you don't have access to, even if he gives you his personal passwords, what about the cell phone issued from his job? Can you get access to those records by requesting that he talk to his company about setting up a reimbursement plan, where the bill comes to your home and they reimburse him for the charges? He has a secret life and is so entrenched in it, all of those areas need to be completely transparent if there is any hope to recover with him.

He asked you if you knew something that you weren't telling him..all that says is that he is concerned that you are on to him but hasn't figured out exactly how you know he is still in contact.. he is trying to figure out a way to take his A underground so it won't be detectable by you..and that is concerning.

Does your WH have any spiritual foundation? Any church?

I do like your letter to the OW's mother and think it is perfect.

The things on catpersons list are non negotiable issues, however, I WOULD NOT FRAME THEM AS A DEMAND. You are much less likely to get any of that if presented that way. Agreed, these are non negotiable boundaries, but the way to present them is like this:

"In order to restore trust and recover our marriage, I must feel SAFE. In order for me to MOVE FORWARD with this, the ways to acheive this would be:

1. gave me passwords

2. xxx

3. xxxx"

And again, I emphasize these are not negotiable items, but don't demand. Let him know you are WILLING TO PURSUE RECOVERY IF HE IS WILLING TO DO CERTAIN THINGS TO MAKE YOU FEEL SAFE. "This is what it will take for our marriage to recover."

If you don't mind a suggestion from the peanut gallery here.

Don't make promises you are unable, or unwilling to keep.

You say he knows D is next if he continues to lie, and you say you know he has lied to you today! This sends the signal to him that he can lie again because you won't follow through with your threat of D.

So which lie will make you actually follow through with the D? Does he get a week to finally come clean on everything and then it's the next lie?

Not trying to push you one way or the other, and this is just an observation. If you warned about D when he lies again and you don't follow through, he will learn it's okay to lie with no consequence, and it will make you look weak and be somewhat of a liar yourself which you don't want to do.

Don't make any promises or demands that you aren't absolutely willing to follow up on.

Just trying to help.

I agree with all of you that he is probably still playing me. He has promised to share all passwords tonight. He also has promised to give me access to everything I ask for. I'm going to make a list and have him share tonight.

As for the cell phone thing - I'm worried about that, too. He says he is cancelling his personal cell phone since he will now have the work one - doesn't need 2 of them. I don't trust that he will actually only have 1 cell phone or that she won't have access to the work cell phone number. I'm going to try to get him to work with me on a plan for me to see those records.

I agree that he has probably already told her to ignore the NC letter. I may be crazy, but I've asked my PI what she would recommend as next steps if there's anything I can do besides follow him 24/7. The good thing is that she lives 4 hours away, but that makes it hard to know when they might try to get together again.

As for church affiliation - he is a believer, but not a church goer. I'm a Christian but don't attend church regularly.

Another thought I had was to make a list of all my passwords and give it to him. I offered that to him last night and he said he doesn't need that from me because he trusts me. He has known my email password before, but probably forgot it at some point. I think I'm going to make that list, anyway, and give it to him.

FormerPF - great point. I guess in all the crap I didn't think about it that way. You're right, though, that I'm not really going to file for divorce because he lied to me today about NC.

I like Cat's and Melody's suggestions about the things that are non-negotiable but putting them in the form of a request to help me feel safe in our M. Also, as the path to getting out from under constant scrutiny for him.

Don't waste your time. The first thing he is going to do is get one of those untraceable phones and hide it from you...and he'll probably buy her one too. He will probably hide it up under the dashboard of his car.

KLD, I sent my husband my email accounts with passwords soon after we were married. He had given me his, I felt it was a good policy. If you send it in email, he can keep it or delete it, as he pleases.

I agree with catperson, all passwords, non-negotiable. Evidence of new, secret accounts, phones, there will be a consequence.

I get the feeling that you are not concerned about the life insurance policy or retirement fund, but I still have an inkling that with such a cold, calculating man (why on earth would he change the password to his account? Knowing if you have been accessing it, you will also know if he changes the password? Why? Because he is lying to you and plans to keep lying to you. He has brazenly put that right in your face with this action,) money (in any form, including support, combined incomes, etc.) may be at the core. (I hope not.)

I personally would want to know that he was staying *only* for me, not because of $$ he has coming. The consequence for non-transparency could be that he will have to sign off on those docs.

There is no law that say's you cannot contact the OW. I would approach at as woman-to-woman vs. I hate you, you B*. That way she might let her guard down.

I cannot tell you how much valuable information I got out of my husband's EA via just one phone call to the OW.

More on the password issue. I would call that cold fish up and say, "So you figured out I was accessing your online cell phone account. So what? I had to see just how deep your lies ran. Why did you change it? Are you telling me that is how you plan to be HONEST and TRANSPARENT with me?" But that's me. I really wish you the best.

KLD, he deserves constant scrutiny. I think sometimes it is hard for us to accept, "If I make this or that tough condition, he might actually leave me, and I don't want that."

But weigh what he is doing to you now vs. the life you will have with him in the future. For every one thing you let him get away with now, he will plan to get away with ten times that in the future.

It might make him nervous to be under constant scrutiny. Let it. That's going to be for the rest of his life. He might as well get used to it now.

V said:
I would call that cold fish up and say, "So you figured out I was accessing your online cell phone account. So what? I had to see just how deep your lies ran. Why did you change it? Are you telling me that is how you plan to be HONEST and TRANSPARENT with me?"

I love this !!

K,
I like your letter to OW's mother too. My opinion is that you did a good job with it.

SS

Seriously, I'm not worried about him leaving me at this point. I was worried about that before, but not now. I'm trying to find the right balance for this point in our life - day 5 after confrontation about his A. I'm trying to do the right things to give the M a shot with a WH who will hopefully soon become a FWH.

You all are being so helpful and I know I'm avoiding mistakes by hearing what you have to tell me.

I made copies of the text log I printed this morning. I plan to share that with him tonight. I was really trying to protect my sources, but he figured this one out and hopefully, I can use that as leverage with him.

If we do end up in D, I have all the documents and info I need to really prove my position, so it won't matter in the long run if he knows my sources. Obviously, I won't give it up if I don't have to, but if I do I probably won't hurt my position as much at this point.

I made copies of the text log I printed this morning. I plan to share that with him tonight. I was really trying to protect my sources, but he figured this one out and hopefully, I can use that as leverage with him.

I think you would do well to share it now, where he already changed his password. There is a good chance he does not know for sure, but is just trying to plug leaks. I think you could really use V's quote (but maybe modify it) on him.

(After you show him the text logs)
WH, we both know you lied to me. I am willing to try for a time, but not forever. If you want me to trust you, then you will have to be transparent - give me all your passwords, and make your life an open book. I still have other sources, and there is a good chance I will know if you continue to lie to me. There is no reason for me to stay with someone who continues to be a cheat, and a liar. As I said, I will give you a chance, but you have already used up quite a bit of my good will. I am not seeing someone who is sorry, and who wants to make thing right. I am seeing someone who feels bad they got caught, and who continues to hide things. I am looking for change, and I am not seeing it yet."


Again, you would have to modify so it sounds like something you would normally say. This is just for an example.

If we do end up in D, I have all the documents and info I need to really prove my position, so it won't matter in the long run if he knows my sources. Obviously, I won't give it up if I don't have to, but if I do I probably won't hurt my position as much at this point.

Agreed.
Others have voiced one of my worries. That he will just get another phone that you don't know about. We still don't know if he is trying, but addicted, or if he has no intention at all of quitting, but is trying to find a way around what you know. Anything you can protect may help you find the truth in the future.


At this point, you still don't have anything. He SAYS he wants to stay married. HIS ACTIONS do not support his words.


We hope he is sincere.
We pray that the truth will come out quickly though, so you will know.

SS

KLD,

I'm so happy you got more information from him and that he said he wants to work on your marriage.

However, I think he is lying through his teeth to you. Changing his password is completely contradictory to what he is telling you. This is how he has operated with you for years. Says one thing, you react calmly and acceptingly, and then he figures out how to go on with his life.

IMHO, I don't think you have ever really had to worry about his leaving you. He has left and come back every time, doing all he can to make you feel guilty and responsible. He has no intention of leaving you. he does NOT wnat to marry the OW or even live with her full-time. He is living a double life and he likes it. Very much.

Also, IMHO, this not the right time to be finding the balance. The affair is still in full swing. He is in contact with her. He has changed his password. He is thinking every minute about how he is going to convince you it's over so he can go on with his A.

Again, this is only my opinion but....I would stop worrying about the LBs. He is on to you. He knows that you are trying to control your emotions and approach him reasonably. He is using that against you. I understand the importance of avoiding LBs in recovery, but again, an angry outburst about your feelings and his actions to a clearly unrepentant WH is not the same thing.

I told my FWH about your talk with your WH last night and the first thing he said was, "If she doesn't start showing him how mad she is and how deeply this has hurt her he's gonna keep puling that wool over her eyes." I told him that you had told your WH how much he hurt you and he said, "It won't work. It didn't work when YOU told ME. She has to SHOW him."

I cetainly second Valentine's suggestion about his password and LOVE the letter to the OW's mother. Are you going to expose the multiple OWs to each other?

And here is where I am sure no one will agree with me. In the book Love Busters, Dr. Harley comments that sometimes a person will not respond to anything BUT a demand. He says that this is not normal and explains it a bit.

MY H has been one of those people for most of his life. Until the idea is presented as a DEMAND, he just doesn't get that I am SERIOUS. He thinks he still has some wiggle room and that he can get away with NOT really doing it.

This is improving, but you can bet that at D-Day, until I made DEMANDS(which I refuse to call selfish, they were made to SAVE our marriage) and had mutiple ANGRY OUTBURSTS, NOTHING was going to change. Even now, I am regretful about some of the things I did NOT demand. I framed them as thoughtful requests and sure enough he did not do them. One incident we discussed with our MC. I could see that he genuinely did not GET that my request was vitally important to me and and his refusal to do it damaged our recovery process. Once he got it he was remorseful, but it was too late for this particular request to be fulfilled.

People hear the things we say in different ways, through their own filters. What may sound like a selfish demand to one may merely sound like a strong and important NEED to another.(I think you are THAT type of person. You are giving to a fault and want to meet not only your H's needs but your family's, etc.)

And vice versa.

Sometimes, a thoughtful request feels like a selfish demand to someone, no matter how carefully it is worded.(Needless to say, I think this is your H.)

The concept of Love Busters assumes that the person you are trying to keep from Love Busting will be responsive to your efforts. Sometimes, for a variety of reasons, a person is NOT responsive or CHOOSES not to be responsive.

Please consider whether or not your husband is one of these people. You are doing SO well and are so brave and strong. You deserve the best.

Praying,
WH2LE

hi k,

i also like the letter to mom of ow. i hope she has the good sense to understand and be of some help.

i am wishing you all the best. you are such a kind and caring woman. i hope dh knows what an amazing wife he has.

know you are in my thoughts.

<3

I wasn't going to expose OW1 to OW2 and vice versa at this point. I'm rethinking that decision, though.

I don't mind calling OW2 and speaking to her. She may not even know he's married. That won't be hard to do.

OW1, though, is a real piece of work. I can't just call her up and expect to have the kind of conversation that would be productive in any way. I've already had 2 encounters with her (March, 2007 and July, 2007) and neither one went well at all. She is unreasonable and nasty. If I expose anything to OW1 it will need to be through email most likely. I'd be glad to hear opinions on that...

KLD,
e-mail sounds good to me. I would do it quickly though.


WH2LE

WH2LE, AmIOk had a similar experience, her H kept lying about being done with the affair until she boiled over one day. She called it Plan FU. It woke him up from his fog, and they've been in recovery over a year now. KLD, you can find her latest thread in InRecovery, she still posts.

KLD, I would do those exposures NOW. I agree about doing it via email with the nasty OW. Be sure and tell her that now that your H is trying to save your marriage, you would appreciate it if she stopped pursuing him. [she needs to know this is what he is telling you]

Hi KLD,
Regarding exposure to the OW you have had contact with in the past, I agree to the e-mail exposure.

BUT, I would set up a separate e-mail account that is only for the purpose of contacting her. I would not use your regular e-mail account. Don't give her access to it, set up something just for your communication with her.

I mailed the letter to OWM today via certified mail. She should get it tomorrow or Saturday.

I tried to call OW2 today and always got voicemail. Will try again in the morning.

By the time I got home today I was near a panic attack. Hadn't been that close to that before. I had run out of Xanax and needed to pick up my prescription this afternoon. By the time I got home I was not in great shape. WH was home and I fell apart when I saw him.

He was very attentive and listened closely. Asked permission to move closer to me to talk me through. I told WH that I was so angry at him and had promised him that I'd behave with restraint and it was taking a huge toll on me. I told him that I wasn't allowed to tell him with the emotion and force I actually feel how he's hurt me because of his reaction to getting yelled at. Then I let it all out. It was mostly crying instead of yelling, but I didn't hold back.

I told him I knew he was lying about contact and that he'd changed his password. He says he changed it because he thought I called and got it by giving his SS# to Cingular and that made him mad that I was using his SS#. I told him that I guessed the password - just got lucky. I didn't have to show him the print out but told him I had it. He admitted then that he was having trouble getting her to back off. He said she's not aggressive or angry, just won't stop. I suggested that he just not answer if he hears from her.

I told him how it appears that he's not really interested in doing the work to recover and that he's either waiting to see if this will blow over or for me to get mad enough to file for D.

Much more was said. I'm going to set up an appointment with Jennifer for next week. Next step is to get him an appt for STD testing.

I felt weak for falling apart, but it gave me a way to get out my thoughts and feelings.

He agreed to show me all I'm asking for. We agreed to do it this weekend since online info won't change - specifically his bank records.

I still need to get his passwords. He's agreed to share them all. I'm going to remind him to send them to me via email.

Good idea to email OW with a special email address. I'll set it up tomorrow. I'm sure it will get forwarded to WH - I might ask for your expert advice again before I send it.

EO - thanks once again for your great help pointing me to others who have posted things that may help me. It's invaluable the things I've learned by reading what you recommended.

KLD...

I haven't posted to you before, but have been following your thread. I am so sorry for all that you are going through. And don't worry about the panic attack and what happened during it (I can SO totally relate...I suffer through them myself...it sucks...mine have been so bad I have fainted before...). You are under a lot of stress. It is understandable. If anything, I may help your WS to see the affects of what he has done. Heck, mine ran from my affects. Guess he couldn't face it.

Anyway, you are doing remarkably well considering. You are a strong woman and this will make you even stronger. Keep your chin up and chest out...

Not2fun

KLD, will he send the OW a no contact letter via email TONIGHT? And will he give you his password NOW so you can monitor the contacts?

Thanks, n2f. Your support means so much. It helps to know that possibly I didn't screw up. It went completely different than I'd planned...

No way! You did great!

Amazing, really!

~ Marsh

He11 no, you didn't screw up! It is good to show him how very hurt you are.

KLD,
Is there a reason why he can't give you those passwords tonight? Why does he have to email them to you? Don't wait on this, the longer you wait, the longer he has to continue contact with OW, all the while telling you it's her coming after him...you need access to those accounts, there will be no denying contact once you have those passwords and he knows it..make sure he follows through, it shouldn't be an option for him to wait until the weekend...

YAY for KLD!!!!!! YAY!!!!!! (wild, thunderous applause!!!!)
YAAAAAAYY!!!!!!!!!!

You were not weak!!!! Showing your deep emotion was STRONG!!!!!!!!!!
YAAAAAY!!!!!!

You did great!!!

Praying still,
WH2LE

By now you may be feeling a lot better. I hope you are.

If you are not, I recommend Prayer.

God knows things you and I do not know. Were we to take a walk, we might see the trees, we might see grass, and flowers, and many other things. God would see what we see, but he would see much more. He would see the tree, but he would see the birds nest, and he knows how many eggs are each nest. He would see the grass, but he would see the ants in the grass, and know what they are carrying, and where they are taking it. He would see the flowers, but he would also see the bees darting into each, and he would know where their hive is, and how much honey they have stored, and he would know each bee and how much they help the hife.

God knows you personally. He loves you, more than words can express. He knows what you need, and what will help the most, and he can give it to you.

From Luke Chapter 11
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


As I said, I hope you are OK.
But, if not, please pray, and ask for help. I know he cares about us, and will help. I am sure there are many of us who will add our prayers to yours.

Sweet Dreams KLD. God bless you with peace tonight, and the rest you need. May your H find peace also, and the strength to do what is right.

SS

Through the years, I've tried to be strong in front of my D17, explain what's important, what I'm upset about, without emotion, be strong. But I really think that doing that let her off the hook, you know? She never really realized the importance of what I was saying. For instance sometimes in my depression, I was really close to losing it, going off somewhere and just ending things, because she and my H just blissfully move along, not helping with the house, not caring about anything, and I felt all alone. I told my friend I tried really hard not to cry in front of her. But my friend pointed out that maybe it was the crying that D17 really needed to see; otherwise, she'd never understand the importance of what I was saying, realize how desperately I needed her to listen to me - and help me.

I think you needed to be emotional. Like someone said earlier, and like my daughter, he needs to know how badly he's affecting you or he may not understand the horror of what he's done. I don't know if you follow wonderin's thread in Recovery, but I keep trying to point out to her that her H, from what she says, has NOT fully understood how deeply she's hurt because she's (I believe) been too accommodating to his needs and not...mean enough to him - and therefore (I believe) will never put her ahead of his own needs.

Like someone said about sometimes you have to demand, not request, sometimes you have to be more forceful and appear to be a b*tch than you are comfortable with - to get through to them. Anything else is just weak - and easy to ignore.

I hope you realize this is a manipulative move. People who use other people learn to do this to smooth their way to get what they want. I recommend NOT letting him ever do this when you are being serious.

And I hope you realize this is BS lying, and also deflecting, which is more manipulation. He's saying he's justified in hiding stuff from you simply because he's mad that you went to Cingular? Aw, poor baby! That would have been a good point to laugh at him. (but don't beat yourself up, because I think you did beautifully) I hope you will work hard to learn to recognize the manipulation more easily, because he will continue to 'work' you if you don't. Please consider reading some of the books suggested, like my favorite "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" (Bancroft). It will help you recognize the triggers of what they do and say, so you can protect yourself. And make your M stronger by 'teaching' him he can't do that any more.

You're doing great!

True! This is an old trick. You get into someone's space as a means of intimdation or manipulation.

I think you did great KLD. Loosing control of your emotions was not a BAD thing in this case. You've been so controlled throughout this whole thing. He needed to see some emotion.

KLD, thanks for keeping us posted. I can only imagine how stress-inducing this is for you right now. I'm sending more hugs and prayers your way! Can you feel them?

At this early point in recovery, is it appropriate to plan some RC this weekend? If so, what would you like to do?

We talked more after I posted last night about his contact with her. He did seem to take my loss of control very seriously. I think I worried him because I was very much out of control. I remember the look on his face when I had severe complications in 2003 from surgery when people were so worried that I would die. This was the same look on his face and I haven't seen it since then. I do believe he take this seriously and he does undertand the magnitude of what he's done.

All that being said, I still don't trust him. I told him that I'm willing to try for a while and he will get a million percent of my effort, but there will come a time when D will get a million percent of my effort if contact with OW continues along with the other behavior that has so damaged our M. I also said that I must see the same amount of effort from him because I'm no longer willing to do all the work to hold our family together.

So, that's the latest on conversations with WH.

Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions, support, and prayers. I do feel a little better today, but still so very stressed. I've actually been able to do some work today and yesterday, so that's a big step forward and one I'm sure my boss would be happy to know about if he was aware that I've been staring into space for the better part of 2008.

EO - great question about what we might do for RC this weekend. I hope I can get to the point where I can enjoy his company again soon because believe it or not, he's a great guy to be around when he's not being a liar and a cheat. I actually must shop for some new clothes this weekend. I've lost so much weight though this that things I got even a month ago are too big. Such a new concept for me because I've always been a little on the plump side.

Aside of that, maybe we can go for a nice dinner - it's something we always enjoy is good food. He wants to show me his new jobsite near Stone Mtn so maybe a stop into the park would be a good options and get both of our needs met there.

Now - here is my letter to OW to go out via email to both of her email addresses that I know of:

OW,

You should be aware by now that I know about your affair with WH. I’m sure he’s told you that we have decided together that we want to make our marriage work. You may not believe this or care, but we do love each other very much. Your presence in our lives has done damage, but it hasn’t been fatal to our relationship.

WH has promised me that he will cut off contact with you and that he is committed to recovering our marriage. He also tells me that he has asked you not to contact him again. I believe him. I am a woman who values my husband and my marriage and will do anything possible to keep my family intact.

From here forward any contact from you will be unwanted and unacceptable. Please heed our wishes and allow us move forward with our marriage without you as a hindrance to our recovery.

Sincerely,

Catperson,
You are so right about the manipulation tactics..

KLD,
It is tough to go through this, and sometimes its hard to believe that someone so close to you and someone who is supposed to love and protect you can really decieve you in such a terrible way...just take care not to fall into the trap of what's referred to as the BS (betrayed spouse) fog..You can't trust him at all right now. He doesn't have your best interest because he is in contact with OW..his actions are not matching his words..you can only fight this by understanding that he is a WH now.. There is stil CONTACT between them, and as long as that is going on, there is no shot at real recovery...that is why it's important for you to fight this..you are fighting to save your marriage. It's hard and it's even harder to really believe a WS can be so cruel, mean and even manipulative, but they are..the only way that can change is by ending the affair..I would suggest that you don't soften your position with him, don't allow him to negotiate when he will be giving you the things you have asked for: (the passwords, the NC letter,)
He will use that against you to continue contact..If he's dragging his feet about giving you what you ask for, getting you to agree to wait a few more days, it's nothing more than buying more time to prepare the OW for what's coming...

I am sorry you are going through this, you are in all of our prayers.

I think I was posting at the same time as you before so, I think others will chime in, but the NC letter should be written by your WH..you should read and approve of it before sending, but HE should write it. OW should know it's coming straight from HIM and that he no longer wants to be involved with her at all for the rest of his life because he is working on his marriage with YOU.

edited for spelling

Maybe in KLD's case it would be better for this NC letter to come from her? Because it seems to me that her husband is already going behind her back; he may have already forewarned OW that his wife may force him to write a letter -- and may have instructed her to disregard it.

With this letter, OW will get a taste of the lies WH is telling his wife. She will see they contradict the lies he is telling her.

It would be good if WH added his name and added a "P.S. I have read this letter and am in complete agreement. Even if I have contacted you in between, do not misinterpret what is being said here. I stand by every word above my wife has stated above. Whatever I said in between was when I was in a state of conflict. I now realize that I want to be on the path of a full recovery with my true and legal wife. You are not a part of our marriage and will impede our recovery."

Or something to that effect. The final wording would have to be agreed upon by KLD and WH of course. Repetition of the words, "my wife," will reinforce the message that he is married and plans to stay that way. It will properly distance the OW and make her aware that she isn't, never has been -- and will never be his wife.

KLD, I think you are doing a great job.

He has said he will send a NC letter and that he will write it tonight. Last night was a very emotional and not normal night at our house. I'm not making excuses and I did ask him to do it last night, but he didn't. He said he will do it today.

At this point, I wonder if it's even effective knowing that they've had contact all week long. Even though I couldn't see the records, I asked if he had communicated with her yesterday and he said he did. I asked him at that point to not reply the next time he gets something from her and to not initiate anything on his own.

I actually want this woman to see that she has stepped into a buzz saw with me. My M may end in D, but it won't be because I was easy or a push over.

good for you!

Maybe in KLD's case it would be better for this NC letter to come from her?

NO! Stick with the MB principles.

Valentine,
Either way he can lie and say he didn't want to do it, even if KLD writes it..there is no way to prevent him from saying that his wife made him do it if he is intent on saying that....I do think that it's an important step for WH to write it because it will show KLD that he is willing to write this letter on his own to end contact...if she writes it, he never even has to commit to the first step which is ending contact with the OP..the Harley's suggest that the WH write the letter and I would stick with that....if KLD wants to send a separate email informing the OW that she is not giving up on her marriage, she loves her H, and is going to fight to save her marriage..maybe that would be an option.

It looks to me like SHE is writing an exposure letter - telling OW that She (KLD) knows about the A.

Her H needs to write the NC letter, telling OW the A was a mistake, and that he wants NC forever. KLD needs to see and approve the NC letter her H writes.

Yes, sometimes the WS tells OP in advance that the NC letter is "something my spouse made me do, but I'll continue to contact you behind their back."

However, the writing of the NC letter can be an indicator in and of it's self. If the WS is reluctant to write, drags their feet, and doesn't want to word the letter in the most effective manner, it is very telling.

SS

rw, it was my impression that he was going to be sending a separate NC letter. But I thought he would have already told the OW to disregard it. I just saw an added P.S. as a way to give the OW a taste of what he is telling his wife... for real... rather than the lies he is no doubt telling, (i.e., he could be saying, I'm telling her I want a divorce, but she's demanding I send this letter, it's just a delay, etc., etc.)

The intent of my letter is to let OW know that I'm going to fight for my M and she will not win. It is in no way meant to take the place of his NC letter.

Thanks for clarifying that KLD!
Initially, I thought you were writing the NC letter.

Given it's only been five days since confrontation, a lot of progress has been made. Thanks for the update KLD. I think that was unclear, whether your letter was completely replacing his. Now it's clear that's not the case.

If this letter sounds too much like a NC letter, I need to change it. I don't mean for it to take the place of his letter in any way. I really want to expose to her that I know, that she hasn't caused harm that can't be repaired, and that she's out.

I think your letter is fine. Just don't count on it having too much impact with the OW.

There are always things that some of us would change, but after reading the letter, I believe any reservations I have are merely differences in style.

I don't know that you need to change anything.

SS

I changed it up a little bit, but it's now on it's way to her. No turning back now. I called WH and asked again about his intentions regarding the NC letter and he said he will do it tonight. I'm sure I'll have to remind him.

I just couldn't stand by as the quiet little mouse in her eyes. If this was a mistake, then so be it. I have operated from a position of weakness (by my own choices to not see the truth, etc.) and I'm not going to continue to stay in that place.

KLD,
Like I said before, You ROCK!!!

I do have one thought. I know you have already sent the letter to OW, but maybe a P.S. of your own would be in order. She needs to be informed about OW#2 and your WH's foray into the online dating scene.

I saw on another thread(TMTS maybe?? Just not sure) that the BH found that the OM had a GF and exposed to her that the OM was carrying on with his WW. It broke up the A very quickly when both GF and WW realized that they had been ....uh....had.

And are you going to inform OW#2 about OW#1? She needs to
be exposed to also.

You have not made any mistakes so far. You aren't going to start now. The mistakes made have been by all other parties involved here and they are just experiencing the consequences for their behavior.

Praying,
WH2LE

I agree that you should expose all the women to each other. No man will withstand the crap that could ensue, once they find out the man they're cheating with...is cheating on them!

Just remember what I said about the manipulation. He can be a wonderful person to be married to, but still be a compulsive liar or manipulator. No physical contact for at least a couple of weeks, no matter what! Don't allow him to move in close to you, to touch your hand or arm, to even brush against you.

I hope the silence means you were able to get away for the weekend.

Actually, I just needed time away from all this for a few days. I didn't actually get away, but did find some diversions.

WH and I went for a nice dinner Saturday night and it was good. We had fun without talking about our issues. This was a nice change of pace.

He is feeling exremely guilty and that's causing him problems. He's not sleeping.

We had some good talks, though difficult ones, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. He has shown me his phone records and she has contacted him but he hasn't responded. He says he didn't read the messages, though I don't know if that's true or not.

He still didn't write the NC letter. I asked him about it and he said just can't concentrate on it. I told him that this is a strong statement to me about his commitment and he says he's doing the best he can. I got angry with him and the response was a bit of anger in return. He says that he feels he's walking on eggshells and is afraid that anything he does will blow up in his face. I said welcome to my world for the last 3 years. He didn't have a comeback for that one.

In all, I think he's trying but is resisting some of the things he needs to do. We have a session with Jennifer tomorrow night and I'm hoping this session will help get us headed in the right direction. I know I'm making mistakes and I know he's withholding info. Maybe Jennifer will help us break through some of that.

I'm still in a depressed kind of funk. Not sure the ADs are really helping and not sure how to know for sure. It's only been 4 weeks since I started on them so maybe it's just now at the stage where I should see some results. I've been kind of short with my boss - he's actually a little dense and doesn't really understand what I do - and I need to watch that.

KLD,

So good to hear that you are ok. Depression is the norm for now. At this moment I am not sure there is an AD made that will take away what you are feeling. A lot of what you feel is grief and it's important to work through it.

What mistakes do you think you are making?

Praying,
WH2LE

Some of the mistakes I think I'm making are not completely holding his feet to the fire about some of the things I've asked him to do. I did tell him I want to see him be proactive so I don't have to ask for the things I've asked him to do. If he's sincere he needs to show me what I need without waiting for me to ask for it. Some of that he has been doing - showing phone records and his bank records. We did discuss the money he spent on her and I think he didn't realize just how much it's been and that it would make me as mad as it did.

He hasn't given me passwords. I gave him all of mine even though some of them he already knew. I did this to lead by example. It drew no response from him. When I asked him about it he says this is very difficult for him because he doesn't want to give up every piece of privacy he has. I explained that he's created this situation and he says he understands yet the passwords aren't forthcoming.

I told him about the email I sent to her and the letter to her mother. He got very angry about the letter to her mother. He said he didn't care about the email to her, but that it wasn't right to drag her mom into it. I explained my logic that hopefully her mom would have some influence over her and help her. I told him I won't apologize for the fact that people must deal with the consequences of their actions. Nothing else has been said about it since then.

I can't tell if it's withdrawal for him or if it's his guilt or a combination, but he is very distant. He said yesterday he was so tired from not sleeping that he couldn't really function. I've actually seen him this way several times since I've known him when he's not been sleeping well.

I told him last night that I feel like crap that he's slept with OW and carried on with her for so long yet I'm still the one making all the effort to make this work. That I'm the one who's trying to show him that we can be happy again. He should be proving to me that he wants the M and that he is choosing me and our M because it's what he wants not because I'm the lesser of two evils or he's afraid to lose out in a D.

I want to see that my WH is thankful that I did what I did to save my M and to bring him back. I don't see anger from him for anything except the letter to OWM, but I see resignation. Is this normal?

It's probably too early to expect anything from him but withdrawl and depression... he's still foggy. If you keep up the planA he will eventually be so grateful for you hanging on and he will tell you that.

Hi KLD - I have been following your sitch and wanted to chime in to say "great job!" I don't know how you found the strength to quietly prepare for the confrontation with your H over such a protracted period of time but that strength is admirable.

In terms of your current status I would offer that apparently this is normal. I have been dealing with variations on the "why am I the only one trying to save our M?" since my d-day and it has been at times infuriating, saddening and frustrating. My W and I started MC (Imago therapy) and have been to two sessions. I should be encouraged that she agreed to go with me but it still seems that my W's feelings are dominated by anger and resentment at me over my decision to tell my son about her A (with his coach).

On a daily basis I am simply trying to stay as focused as possible on me and my kids and trying to find strength in knowing that we will all be OK regardless of what happens with the M. I'll continue to Plan A for as long as I can but at some point I may decide that the one-sided approach is not working.

Hang in there. You're doing great.

TIM - I've been following your thread, too, but just haven't felt like I've had anything much to offer since I don't really have any notable experience under my belt. Thank you so much for the encouragement you've given me - it helps to know that what I'm seeing out of my WH is fairly normal - if such a thing exists.

I wish you luck in your journey, as well. It sounds as if you're going your part and I hope it pays off the way you want it to.

Hi KLD, I understand how unhappy you feel about your unwillingness to hold his feet to the fire as yet. I remember when AmI and her H would have their discussions with Steve, and he really explained it to her H in a way that made sense to him even through the fog. That would be a great sign if your H respons similarly to your session.

I'll be praying for ya!

(((KLD)))

It will be interesting to see if WH does his "homework assignments" .... we shall see.

YOU are doing a darn good job at this .... yes, you are !

Yes, I'm interested to see if he does his homework, too. I told him last night there will be homework and his willingness and eagerness to do it will be an indicator to me of his seriousness. He says he understands.

I'm hoping Jennifer will be able to help WH see what he needs to do and convince him (or whatever term really fits) that he needs to do it, EO. I hope we have the same luck as AmI.

WH just called to tell me he will most likely be a little later than normal getting home tonight. Asked if we still have our call and assured me that he will be home in plenty of time to have dinner and get ready and settled down for the session. One good sign, I suppose. I'll take a few good signs at this point!

Maybe I'm paranoid - or maybe this is a no-brainer to do this, but I'd like some advice from those of you who've been here at this early stage. I don't consider us truly in recovery yet since he hasn't completely made his life an open book to me. So, I don't trust him yet.

He also told me that his boss is coming to town tomorrow and that they are going to have dinner together since they haven't been able to spend very much time together since he started his new job about 3 weeks ago. Makes perfect sense - his boss lives in Denver and will be on the jobsite every few weeks or so only.

Is it worth it to have the PI follow him to make sure this is really what he does or do I just need to trust that he's where he says he'll be? He has sworn to me that she has never come to Atlanta to meet him, that they've never met half way between in a hotel, and that he's only seen her when he went to her town. Now I realize that all of that could be bunk or that there's always a first time for everything.

He's asked me if I'm still having him followed and I said I'm not and that I only did it when he went on this last trip. I don't want to turn myself into a liar, but I also don't want to be a trusting soul that gets dumped on again. Thoughts?

The WS often falls off the wagon -
Sometimes they have no intention of staying on.

You still don't know.

As far as the PI -
Go with your best guess. That's all you can do.

Progress in recovery -

I don't know everything you required of him, but lets review some of the ones we can guess from what you have said.

NC letter
He hasn't done this

Make his life an open book
He hasn't done this.

Counseling -
That should start tonight.
We'll see.


I got angry with him and the response was a bit of anger in return. He says that he feels he's walking on eggshells and is afraid that anything he does will blow up in his face. I said welcome to my world for the last 3 years. He didn't have a comeback for that one.

I am not sure where he is coming from, since it looks like he hasn't done anything yet.

Tell us what he has done, besides talk about it.

Tell us how you view his efforts at meeting the requirements that were set for recovery.

Now, having said all this.......... it often goes this way even when there will be recovery.

You sound good, like you are still in control. Are you feeling as good as you sound? Can we help with that part?

SS

BTW,
His talking about privacy is a standard ploy. When someone realizes the full extent of what they have done, they go out of their way to make their life an open book because they understand what is needed to fix their error.

"WH, you can have privacy if you want it. I am not demanding anything, or telling YOU what to do. I am only explaining to you what I need to stay married. You have the right to choose privacy, and I have the right to choose divorce if you do. Please don't do anything you can't live with, but don't expect me to do it either. I am not going to stay with someone who cheats on me, and then maintains they need privacy. It just won't work for me. "

SS

Based on the fact that he has NOT given you passwords....

Based on the fact that he HAS locked you out of his cellphone account....

Based on the fact that he ASKED you about being followed...

I would DEFINITELY have the PI follow him.

and the next question is what are you going to do if he's with her?

KLD,

""He's asked me if I'm still having him followed""

I think you should keep those cards close to your vest for now.

Tell him "that's for me to know and you to WORRY ABOUT!!"

This is a big deterant to keep him guessing on this. He sure isn't going to sneak off any where if he thinks the PI is on his trail.

You are doing a fine job!! Keep his feet real close to the fire!!

Get those passwords!!

What does he need privacy for?? The only time a spouse needs privacy is in the bathroom or if they are writing a personal journal. All other times should be totally transparent.

4 weeks should be enough time for the antiDs to be kicking in. May want to talk to your doc.

Stay strong.

kirk

The things I required were pretty simple:
NC
Proof of NC
Sharing passwords
MC
Proactive effort on his part to discuss our issues
STD testing

NC - he says none since 2/14 but lied about it every day from 2/10 - 2/14 when I finally handed him the printout from his cellphone records to prove he was lying.

Proof of NC - he showed me his cell phone records every night from 2/15 forward. She sent text messages there were no responses from him to those and no phone calls to her. He had his old number disconnected yesterday and will use his work cell phone from here forward. He showed me his call records last night and nothing to or from her. No way to prove he has no secret cell phone to use just for her...

No passwords except to the one email address I already had the password for. Changed his bank password so now I can't see that. He said he was deleting his other email accounts so the only one he has is the one I know about. No way to prove that he only has one email address...

At least he remembered that we have MC tonight. That was a tiny bright spot in a very dark cloud...

As for what he's done besides talk, not alot really. Showed me a few cell phone records and vowed to delete email accounts. Said he will give me the password to his work cell phone if he can get access to it since it's not his personal phone. Was supposed to work with his office to find out today (they were off yesterday for holiday).

He hasn't shown a whole lot of anger and he hasn't been resentful of what I've done to catch him. He's answered questions I've had, but he's not been proactive at all about talking about where we are or anything like that. This is actually typical of him in any situation where he wants it to blow over, though. He does that with everybody.

He's made no effort that I'm aware of for std testing. I'm going to mention that one more time and see what happens there. I'm still waiting on results of my blood test.

So, alot of talk on his part and a little action. I told him last night that this has got to change and he must get involved and enthusiastic about saving this M if he wants me to believe that he really wants it. I wish I'd seen your quote first - it was much more succinct and much more like I'd really like to have said it!

The other thing he's done is start using some of the words I've said to him about how I feel to describe how he feels. Example: I've told him I don't feel safe in a M where my H cheats and lies. A few days later he says he doesn't feel safe giving me details that he knows is going to make me angry.

As for me, I have good and bad times. I'm still feeling very anxious and having to take anti-anxiety meds. Also ADs. Most of the time I'm okay. I'm having some trouble concentrating on work and being motivated to do things around the house. Actually, I feel like if I could just go to sleep for about a month or so, and wake up with a new lease on life I'd be great!!!!