I'd love to tell the gutter trash my H is involved with what I think of her, but I know that wouldn't go well. I know she doesn't give a flip about me or the pain she's causing. I'd just give her more to laugh about. I won't do that.

KLD,

Do not tell ow off, just gives the infidels more ammo.

I never trashed ow and never trashed my WH during the A. It's funny, because ow trashed me hard, my H ended up defending me, and that's even funnier, because he told her 'all' our problems, of course in WH fog.

Anyway, all I am saying is take the high road, I know it is hard sometimes.

However, I did call ow up after my H had been with me for 3 weeks and then took her out to see my favorite singer/musician at that time. so I called and left a message that I was praying for her and had a little info. She called back and I let her know that H had been staying with me, and did she know we were having SF? Oh my gosh. Of course she lied a bunch and after my H cooled off over it and I told him what she said (lies), it really helped to put a damper on the A. ow accused H of cheating on her!!! LOL. Well, she was a stalker, hard to get rid of, but off she went eventually. She was pure evil and I was the guiding light to the way home!

Maybe not your situation, but I had to tell you, I never once put her down, even when I confronted her with what was really going on. It really did end up in my favor. So don't go to their level, take the high road, and do not trash ow or your WH. EVER.

Innocent as a dove and wise as a snake my dear. Use your information to better your PLAN.

You are WORTHY!!!!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

I won't contact OW, though I'd love to be able to tell her what I think. I know that won't help my cause at all.

So WH has been very attentive and even loving the past week or so. I'm not sure why. If I didn't know about his A, I'd think he was invested in our M again and doing his part to make it work. Still see some disconnect, but overall he seems to be happy. I don't have latest phone records, but I doubt seriously that the A is declining. So is this what they do? Act like they care to make you think they're the loving H you want?

Since he doesn't know I know about his A yet, his behavior is confusing. I don't think anything has happened to make him stop the A. He has been so distant and disconnected with me up until about 2 weeks ago, I don't get the change. He may be getting used to the guilt and now it's not so hard to deal with it.

I honestly think that, once a person goes into an A, and gets away with it, they receive some sort of 'high' from keeping it going under their spouse's nose, so to speak. Not that he wants to hurt you, but that it's giving him some sort of sick power, king of the mountain, thing. I think that's why they get so happy.

Ouch. Based on my FWW's actions during her A, I would agree that the guilt does seem to disappear after awhile. I think I might run what you said by my FWW to see if she agrees that was her frame of mind while the A was ongoing.

Any insight into how they feel guilt and if they get a "high" off of their deceit would be helpful.

Went to psych today. Got script for Lexapro and Xanax. Really hope these help. I've felt so much anxiety today. I've felt like my heart would beat out of my chest. More emotional today than usual, too. Not sure why that is. Since I found out about the A, I've been less emotional than before I knew for sure. I've been very upset, but not on the brink of tears every minute like I was before. I don't know what's going on with me today.

First, I apologize if this hurts anyone's feelings. But I think it may (I say 'may') approximate what a WS goes through. But I'm just guessing.

The way I understand it, once the person engages in an A, their 'me' thinking takes over, making them the most important person in the world. You have to be able to do that, I'd think, to have the A in the first place. You 'finally' place your own importance ahead of compromising for the sake of the M, cos, hey, you deserve some happiness once in a while.

For instance, you might have been having rumblings for quite awhile; you convince yourself your spouse is a jerk; you deserve better; if they weren't such jerks you wouldn't be looking elsewhere; hey that person in my office really is responding to me, I guess I'm loveable after all; if only my spouse would listen to me like that or look at me that way, then I wouldn't be feeling this way; well, if S isn't going to make the extra effort, then screw her, I'll go ahead and talk to this woman, it can't hurt; I can't believe how much she 'gets' me when S doesn't; you know, I keep looking for signs that S really cares, but they're just not there, so why shouldn't I be entitled to spend time with someone who does care; this might hurt S but if the marriage was really working I wouldn't have to be doing this; well I met the OW and she makes me feel alive!, like I did when I was 20!, why can't S do this?; why doesn't S care about me, she's all wrapped up in her own world, so just screw her if he isn't going to work to keep me when someone else finds me attractive and wants to listen to me talk; you know S must really be self-absorbed, if she doesn't even realize what's going on under her nose - if she really cared she'd be jumping all over me for acting different but she obviously couldn't care less, which is why I'm better off spending more time with OW; and I'm doing it, and nobody knows any better, and nobody cares, and everybody's happy, cos we're all getting what we want, right?

Like I said, just a guess. Hope it helps.

btw, KLD, you were in crisis mode, which can't last forever. Now that you're taking steps, you're starting to emerge out from behind that wall and experience the real feelings, so you're going to go through a lot of ups and downs.

I know you're right, Cat. I'm starting to feel things I really hadn't gotten to before. Today I'm actually wondering if I want to give this M a chance. I've been continuing to put together the timeline and see just how much communication there has been between these two and it's mind blowing what was going on right under my nose. I wasn't allowed to question what WH was doing because he was in crisis mode, too, and couldn't take it. The truth was that he was in an A and didn't want me to know.

I'm remembering some of the events of the summer and fall and I'm nauseated all over again. I feel like a total fool for not finding out the truth sooner and for actually believing the crap he was filling me with.

I know it's a DJ to assume what his reactions will be, but I am fairly certain he will not be interested in doing the work to save this M. I think he may want to save the M, but he won't be willing to do what it will take - be transparent, no contact, etc. I'm very nervous about offering him a chance to work things out just to have him go deeper underground with his A.

I also found out he's been calling phone sex lines, too. Also, I think I mentioned there's another woman, too. This is so much deeper than I thought. I don't know if I have it in me to work this out if he isn't totally enthusiastic about doing the work - and like I said, I doubt that he will be willing to do much at all.

KLD, I'm sorry it's been so up and down. I don't think you were a total fool. You were trusting someone who you had no reason not to trust. Sounds reasonable to me. I can imagine how you would feel that way, though.

When do you plan to give him the invitation?

(((KLD))) Hang in there, hon. Have you heard the expression "Hanging with the Winners"? I really see you doing that here, not spending time with people who get you down. Do you have great friends IRL to spend time with? Folks who make you feel more like yourself?

I don't have the invitation letter written yet. I've started it, but can't seem to finish it. I go back and forth between wanting to try that plan first and wanting to just confront him and go from there.

I do believe that the invitation letter is a good idea and it will give him a chance to tell me what he's been doing on his own. I just don't think it will be the catalyst that will make anything positive happen, though. I also know that I won't know for sure unless I try.

I guess the more I find out about his activities, the more hurt I become. I know I need to know what he's been doing, but to know that he's been doing all this through the worst year of our M is devastating. All the things I did to encourage and support him through his business start up and job search and depression and the whole deal and I get repaid for that with EAs, PAs, phone hookers, lies, deceit, and indifference.. How do I get past that?

If he had had the As under "normal" conditions, I would be just as angry and very hurt, but the fact that I was worried sick about his health and doing all in my power to hold everything together while he figured his career out for over a year really does take a bigger toll.

Maybe not MB-worthy, but I say, let yourself be angry about that. Use it to keep going, and keep it in the back of your mind when you confront him, so that you don't find yourself slipping into 'what did I do wrong' territory.

KLD - I give you much credit for the patience you've demonstrated. That said, I guess I'm not clear on why you are waiting to confront your H (or give him the invitation) to end the A. From my outsider's perspective it seems that you are prolonging the agony and making this even harder (or at least longer-lasting) on you than it needs to be.

It may be that you believe strongly that your approach is best for you and your situation and if so I certainly respect that. And if you continue to follow this approach I wish you continued strength.

Good luck.

TIM

Thanks, Cat. I'm keeping a journal - just started it last week - and I'm recording my resentments and feelings. I have put this one in there, but it keeps coming back especially as I continue to dig into his activities.

I'm definitely not going to take any responsibility for his decisions. Of course I take responsibility for my half of the M, but not for his decision to get involved with OP. The journal will hopefully help me stay on that track. For me, one of my biggest challenges will be confronting him with the info I have and doing it withoug LBs.

I may have to take a double does of anti-anxiety pills before I start that convo!!

Dear KLD,

This is my first post ever to MB although I have been lurking daily for almost 8 months, since D-day on 5/31/2007. I find typing incredibly difficult and just don't have time to get all the thoughts written out, but I have been dying to post my own situation and get the advice of the experts. I post now though because I find I can not stop thinking about your situation and some of the similarities between your husband and mine. As you can imagine, I am hardly an expert and am extremely reluctant to give advice on a first post, but I have been reading your posts since you first arrived and even at the beginning noted some similar behaviors. How I wish that someone might have pointed me in the right direction.
I understand your deep resentment over being such a support and helpmeet to your husband and then finding out that he was cheating the entire time. My husband starting acting very depressed, angry, sad and worried in June of 2006. I was genuinely concerned for him and did everything in my power to be supportive and loving. I encouraged him to get counseling(useless, and another whole story). I strove to meet his ENs even though I didn't call them that at the time. We have some unusual circumstances that he tried to blame his feelings on. He has a disability that prevents him from from driving. I drive him to and from work(100 miles roundtrip) and have done this since we got married almost 7 years ago. This limits my ability to work also. Moving closer is not a possiblity at this time for many reasons. He constantly complained(in 2006) about feeling dependent on me. I was and AM acutely aware of these feelings and have worked diligently to assure him that I see him as "manly" and capable(which he truly is except for this disability). He was not one bit interested in allowing me to meets his ENs. He would actually get angrier when we had a nice time together. In September 2006, he admitted to me that he "wasn't sure what he wanted" (Actually he was sure. He wanted to be a cake-eater.). He loved me but he said he was just so mixed-up. He thought maybe a mid-life crisis. Over and over and over he would tell me that everything was fine and then he would get distant and depressed and cold. A week later he would be fine again. After an initial counseling session with an IC he refused to go back( I now know it was because he admitted to her that he was cheating and she told him to end it). I asked him several times if he was cheating and of course he reassured me he was not. He used the excuse that , "Well how can I? I can't even get anywhere on my own!!" So, I would feel guilty for accusing this poor man who was just struggling with his awful feelings of inadequacy, while the whole time, he was cheating with her at work. And everyday I took him there. I am greatly condensing this story. There is much more to it. Sometime I will post it so that I can get some good advice from the WONDERFUL vets on this board. But for now I just want to focus on some of the similarities. Like you, I am an extraordinarily patient woman. I struggled and struggled to find the right approach and the right ways to make this man I love feel better. I tried to make myself a better wife. And I know now is that he took strong advantage of this. He knew I loved him and that I trusted him and boy oh boy did he use that!!! It looks to me as if your husband is doing the same thing. I believe that my husband felt somewhat guilty as he continued down the wayward path, but mostly I think he just felt entitled. He tells me that he just wished that I would get out of his way and let him do what he wanted.
The worst part of all of this is that last winter he gave me an STD. It wasn't one of the usual ones, but it is classified by the CDC as an STD because sex is the most common form of transmission. At the time though, I thought we had caught this horrific ailment from another source, because it was not at all out of the realm of possiblity. This episode turned our lives completely upside down. I had to become a cleaning maniac and do some intensive research before we were able to get rid of the scourge. It took about 6 HORRIBLE weeks to end it. He was sicker than I was and I felt SO sorry for him. I discovered later that every night as I was doing the intense, necessary things needed to cure us, he was outside on his cell phone talking to the OW. Even now, the betrayal of working so hard to help him while struggling to help him maintain his dignity is almost unbearable.
Through it all, I kept trying to figure out what was really wrong. I was beginning to get impatient and (finally!!) began to look at his cell phone. The light started to turn on but it took me a few weeks to put it all together. 10 days before D-Day, things SUDDENLY got better. He SUDDENLY semed like his old self. It was like night and day. I was relieved and thrilled although a little skeptical. This is the day he ended the affair. I didn't realize it until I actually found out on 5/31.
When you wrote about your husband seeming more interested in making things work, I realized I had to write to you.
My husband was on the verge of starting the relationship back up when I caught him. If I had waited even one more day to confront him, I think all might have been lost. I can not emphasize that enough. I am urging you not to wait. My husband will tell me now that he ended it because he felt guilty ,but I believe that he knew I was getting close to discovery. When he ended it and I did not seem to know about it, he felt relief that he had gotten away with it. This gave him the freedom to contact her again(just to make sure she she was ok, ...yeah, right).
I have had to come to an understanding that a big part of my "patience" was merely denial. I did not want the truth to be the truth. And even more, I wanted to be able to "handle" the truth and "handle" myself. I did not want to be seen as a b****, but as a loving, reasonable woman. It was not a good plan for me. When I found out, I was angry beyond belief(everyone here understands that feeling) and I love-busted my a** off. I am NOT sorry I did that AT ALL. I truly believe that if I had been loving or controlled in any way that my husband would have continued to take advantage of my "patience". He would have continued the lies because he would never have understand the depth of my feeling. His whole aim as a wayward was to protect himself and I unwittingly aided him by being understanding. I also believe that my husband would NEVER have admitted his cheating on his own. Angry Confrontation was the only way. He believes this also. Confrontation was also the MOST painful experience I have ever had. But if I had not done it and done it the way I did, I have NO DOUBT that my husband would be gone .(Please note that I attempt in every way not to love bust NOW, but I consider confrontation to be another matter entirely)
My husband did not cheat BECAUSE he was depressed. He was depressed BECAUSE he was cheating. The depression started when he started cheating and ended when he stopped. Period. He no longer needed it. He lied and lied and lied and lied and used my empathy FOR him AGAINST me.
I realize that your situation is not the same, but I felt so strongly that there were similarities in personalities that I wanted to post to you. You have also been married about the same amount of time as us.
We are recovering. It is incredibly difficult, but it it is happening and in a few years I hope I can write a true sucess story. I will tell you and anyone else reading , that THIS BOARD has saved my sanity. The advice given here is priceless. These people know how to save marriages when the rest of the world is telling us to "get rid of the bum." I thank you all humbly. You have all given me the validation I needed to say, "Hey wait a minute. I love my husband and I WANT to be married to him. This CAN work."
KLD, you are a wonderful, loving woman. It is clear that you have your husband's best interests at heart. Do not allow him to use your kindheartedness against you any longer. Again, I know that it is arrogant of me to even offer advice. Please feel free to ignore me. I am keeping you and your husband in my prayers and believing for healing and recovery.


Working Hard to Love Easy

BS(me)-54
FWH-50
M-7 years
DS-26
DD-24
2nd M -Me
1st M-H

WH2LE - thank you so much for posting your story. Your advice to not wait to confront my WH is not arrogant or misplaced - I know I need to do it and I'm thankful for the reminder. It does sound like our situations are similar and it helps me to know that someone has been where I am now (though I'm sorry for you that you've been here) and has been successful in getting to recovery.

Like you, I think much of my patience has been denial. I also have tried so hard to do the things he said he needed from me during this past year of difficulties with his depression and work situation. LBs for him were me asking questions about what he was doing with his job search and offering opinions and advice about that. When I look back on it, he was probably doing very little in the job search area because he was texting his OW all day or possibly even meeting up with her. He definitely didn't want me knowing the details of his job search - or lack of details I should say.

I tried to be understanding and loving and patient just waiting on him to get settled. There were times when I wanted to just be divorced and out of the situation but I'd married him for better or worse and I didn't sign on for only the good times. I also couldn't stand the thought of walking out on him when he was vulnerable and down. These thoughts were rare, though, because most of the time I was focused on doing the right things to be the wife he needed when he was struggling. I tried everything I could think of to be supportive without being intrusive and directive.

I didn't mean to rehash my previous posts, it's a little close to the surface today - again.

I'm still struggling with how to expose when the time comes. I'd welcome any thoughts on how to expose in this situation.

WH doesn't have many close friends that have influence over him. His mother had an A that broke up his home when he was a teenager. She never married the man, though she was with him for most of her adult life after her D. This really affected WH. I don't know that anything she says about an A will influence him given her own behavior. His sister is a possibility, but they just aren't that close - his family lives in England and we're in the US and we don't see them that often and he doesn't talk to his sister very much.

As for my family being an influence on him - my parents just don't get it a good bit of the time. They've not been all that helpful to me when I've needed it in my adult life and I just think they'd do more harm than good. They mean well, they just don't have the skills to understand. My brother and SIL would love to help, but I just don't know if WH would hear what they have to say. They're very religious and WH is a believer, but would be turned off by the very, very Biblical approach that they would take.

As for exposing OW, she's divorced (or at least has a child with a man who doesn't live with her). I think I've found him, but not sure he's involved in the child's life. If not, there's no leverage there. I think she comes from a family that doesn't place high value on marriage and fidelity from what I've gathered. I don't know where she works for exposure there.

Any ideas on crafting an exposure plan in this situation?

Boy, I'd really want to be ready before I did exposure. Close any stray bank accounts, open one in only your name. Get advice from a divorce lawyer (just in case.) Move anything into your name that you will need (again, just in case.)

He might flip things over, and ask for a divorce no matter whether or not you want to work on it.

You have to be firmer in your mind, too, about which way you want to go. Are you only 60% committed to working it out? If so, it will color everything you do.

But if you are 95% committed to working it out (may take some time to get there,) you will come from a much stronger place. Your actions will come from a more positive place.

When the time came, yes, I would tell everyone. But if there are any mental or physical risks to the health of his or your relatives, I would tone it way down.

You don't know what more you might discover during this time frame. You certainly have an educated point of observation at this point. I'd wait and gather more information myself.

It seems every time he gets closer to you, he may be thinking of ending the affair. Then every time he distances himself, he is revamping the affair. Back and forth, back and forth. Did you figure out how long it's been going on yet?

KLD,
With all I said in my long-winded story, I forgot to tell you how sorry I am that you find yourself at this place in life. When I read that the Harleys have found that infidelity is comparable to rape in terms of trauma, I was relieved that my feelings were so well-understood.

I also wanted to tell you that before I confronted him and before I actually KNEW about the affair, I was CERTAIN that my husband would not work on our marriage. I knew I was losing him but I couldn't figure out why. When I confronted, he of course denied it. It was crucial that I did not let him continue doing that. When he told me it was just an emotional relationship I told him that I knew he was lying(even though I did not know THAT for certain). With some personalities, they will not come clean until you absolutely force them to. I refused to accept my husband's story and I refused to be understanding and supportive. It still took him one whole week to admit the entire truth. It was literally like pulling teeth. He did not want to have to deal with my reaction to his behavior. I could see that every time he gave me a tidbit of information he relaxed, as if telling himself, " Whew! Now I don't have to say anymore. She has enough." I finally learned that patiently waiting for his guilt to overwhelm him was NOT going to happen.

But here we are , almost 8 months later and we're still plugging along. It is NOT easy. I still feel that I do the heavy work of recovery, but I let him get away with it less and less. (In no small part due to the advice I read on his forum). I think we will make it but I am not totally convinced yet. What I know is that I WANT to make it, HE says he wants to make it and is genuinely remourseful and that is where we are heading. I am trying to see progress in even the small things. For instance, he stopped smoking. That was a huge LB for me and I never thought he'd stop. I had given up talking it about a few years ago. It means so much to me that he would stop at such a trying time.

Until you confront your husband you will NOT know whether he will work or not. Even then, his first reaction will probably not be his LAST reaction.

I am praying for you, for courage to deal with this and for a recovery that defies the imagination. Your husband is a lucky man.

WH2LE

KLD, I agree with Valentine. When he gets close to you he is thinking about ending it. When he distances he is back into the affair. This is EXACTLY how my husband did it. He admitted this after. Confusing as all get-out when you are the BS. But if he is close to you now, I would seriously consider acting NOW!!