It's taken me a few days to read your thread, I started out at the beginning... now I'm no vet, and I'm still dealing with a WH who is sleeping at warthogs house... but in my opinion you did OK tonight! I don't know that any of us should be expected to fake our emotions!! From what you said in the post above you didn't do much if any LBing. You showed how you felt, I'm thinking that's probably pretty good considering it's just now out in the open. If he thought you were OK with his cheating that would be wrong! I say be honest, if you're mad state it "I'm mad!!", if you are sad, then go ahead and cry, just don't say or do anything that you'll regret later. After awhile you wouldn't want to continue crying about him, but from the looks of it you are a very strong person and you will get beyond this point soon. Hang in there!!

Thanks for the encouragement.

I forgot another thing I said that was probably stupid. I asked him how many times he called her or texted her today to say what a b***** his wife is. He said he texted her once this morning to say he couldn't talk to her anymore. I told him he was full of sh**. He asked me how I know that and I just said because you've lied to me so many times before I can't believe a word that comes out of your mouth. Show me your phone that you have locked up in your care so I can't get to it so I can see there was only one text. He said he would show it to me in the morning. I said "after you've had time to erase all the others?" He got mad about that comment, too.

The problem is that I know he had 30 texts between him and her this morning on his drive to work. There were 20 texts when he went out to pick up some dinner after our talk yesterday. So he is lying through his teeth again and I really can't give up that I have data to prove he's lying or I give away one of my tools. This is so maddening. I hate this so very much!

And SS - I've been so wrapped up in my own Jerry Springer show I didn't know you were still dealing with ongoing contact. I'm so very sorry for you. Thank you a million times a million for taking time with me when you've got so much on your own plate.

KLD,

ARE YOU KIDDING???? You did fabulous!!! Expressing your pain and telling the truth are NOT LBs. I can not tell you how much I admire the way you are handling yourself!!

He is a LIAR and you are calling him on it. You may be the first person to ever do that. OF COURSE he's mad. He lives in a perpetually fogged in world. And you refuse to participate in his Fantasy Fog Game anymore. How dare you!!!

Keep it up KLD!!! You are an inspiration. And you WILL be ok. You WILL!!!!!!

Praying,
WH2LE

KLD, I think you are doing great. It's not possible to do everything perfectly through a time like this. Just remind yourself, you are doing the best you can. That's really the most you can expect of yourself under circumstances like these.

Personally, it would definitely be on my list of conditions that husband sign off on retirement accounts 'until such a time when I feel I can trust you again.' Because his biggest love may be $$$. If he did agree, having a little caveat about trust could build a pressure point for transparency.

(I don't condone breakng the law, but plenty of people have forged signatures under circumstances like these. So you are doing great if you resist the tempation.)

KLD, I am so sorry that you aren't happy with how you did last night. Is that natural, the second guessing? The wondering if you do and say things exactly perfect? I can only imagine how hard that would be.

I want you to know that I am so proud of you. I'm no expert, but they say that Plan A is the reality-bringer, so being honest about the consequences sounds more healthy than enabling his fog by playing along that this is no big deal, that you won't have any questions until tomorrow.

I almost wonder if he hardened his heart last night against showing you the phone because he doesn't want to join you in recovery, and he wants you to end it? His loss, KLD, and what a huge loss that is.

But does it help validate to you that you are doing the healthy thing for yourself, KLD, by getting the information that you have? To see how solidly hard his heart is so that you will know that you are doing the right thing to put an end to this.

I checked his phone records again this morning and no new texts showed up. It could be that it just hasn't updated - sometimes it's very slow.

What I did find was that his phone call records updated and he called her and talked for 25 minutes. He may be dealing with these things with her, but how can I know if he is going to keep on lying or at a minimum not sharing the details?

This morning he kissed me before he left for work and it was all I could do to allow it. He obviously noticed and said I didn't have to kiss him if I didn't want to. I followed him out to the kitchen and said I didn't appreciate flip comments when I was going through trying to deal with his adultery. He said he didn't mean it flip and that he didn't want to talk about it right now that we would talk tonight. I said well you just need to remember that your lips have kissed others and that thought nauseates me. You've put my health at risk by sleeping with other people. Did you even consider that? No, he didn't think of that. Did you use condoms? No, he didn't. I told him I couldn't believe he would risk my health, his health, possibility of pregnancy this way. I said that he has no idea what kind of filthy disease she may have and you exposed me to that. I asked if he knew who else she was sleeping with and he said no. He was angry at me by now.

I said when we talk tonight if I hear one bit of anger out of you who doesn't deserve to be angry I'll walk out on the conversation and we're done.

one itsy piece of advice... to him she's not filthy or disgusting, we all know that she's a low life piece of crap, tramp... etc... but if you say negative things to him that will be a LBing... I know it's hard, but try to bite your tongue and keep those kind of comments to yourself while talking to him... then come here and tell us what a piece of dung she is ;-) I bad mouth warthog all the time, on here, but not to WH!

Hope you have a better day today!

I understand what you're saying about calling her names. I am getting angrier and angrier as this goes further. I will try to control the name calling and saying things about her that will make him defend her. I realize I don't do myself any favors when I behave this way.

Thanks for the reminder. I needed it.

KLD, name-calling slips out. Here it is, a year later, and the term "ex-fart" slipped out when I referred to my DH's ex-wife. It happens.

EO, thanks for helping me with some clarity and possibility around the not getting the phone to show me. He knew he couldn't prove he was telling the truth, so he chose to lie again.

I don't know if he wants to end the M or not. He very well may want that and not have the guts to do it himself. He's said he wanted that many times over the last year but never did it. He may just be waiting for me to get mad enough to do it.

I think the other possibility is that he may want the M, but only if he can keep it on his own terms which would be that he gets to continue with any behavior he chooses. That's not acceptable to me and if he hasn't figured it out by now, he will be aware that's not an acceptable deal for me very soon.

I did tell him last night that I'm not afraid to divorce him and that it's a much better option for me than to continue to be treated like junk. Guess what he had to say about that? You're right... nothing.

KLD, I think everything you said was perfect. If you didn't say something rude about OW, at least once, it may not get through to him as much about how awful it is what he's done.

About this:
I just want to make sure you see this for what it is. It is pure, malevolent manipulation, straight out of the books my D17 is reading on mental abuse. It could be quoted out of the books. So just remember that he has already decided to beat you down with your own kindness, to make you doubt your 'right' to be mad at him. DON'T do it! Stay mad!

If he's waiting until tonight, he is putting together a h&ll of a show to present to you, to make him look as least guilty as possible, to blame as much as possible of it on you (or the OW), and to phrase it all just so, so that you will start doubting what you know.

SO. I will give you the advice from the abuse books, on how to get away from such a person intact, without letting him make YOU cave. What you do is, you prepare at most two or three easy statements that you keep repeating every time he comes up with a blame against you or an excuse for yourself. For example, he says 'I just wasn't getting the love from you that I needed' so you say 'You betrayed me and our marriage. That's all I need to say.' Then he says 'but you've been such a cold b*tch.' So you say 'You betrayed our marriage, not me.' Keep repeating what HE did. NEVER discuss ANYTHING that you did. If he continues on what you've done wrong, say 'You can bring it up in divorce court.' Don't EVER let the discussion become about you.

Just 2 or 3 statements. Don't let yourself sway from those, no matter how hard he tries to push your buttons, and by golly you know he will try!

The reason for this is that, once you get into unscripted territory, you lose your momentum and he has the opportunity to use his lying and manipulation to twist what you say. If you stick to 2 or 3 phrases that you know are fact, not feeling, he can't attack them and has no defense.

Oh, just have to say that when he asked you how you knew (boy is he dumb!), and you said 'let me look at your phone' - that was priceless! Great way to confuse him into thinking you're just bluffing.

Thanks for the tips, Cat. I never thought about having something prepared to repeat over and over if needed. I do tend to talk too much and I think this will help me in that department. I also tend to want to take responsibility for my part and I need to not do that at least for this conversation. Throughout this situation I've also taken responsibility for his part and that behavior absolutely will not continue. I'm not taking on more than I'm responsible for any more.

I'm worried about how to call attention to his lies about contact with the OW without giving away my access to his online account. This has been my best tool to know how much contact they've had.

I could say that he has to give me access to it and have him pull it up right there with me tonight. My fear is that I'm so angry now that I'll make demands that make sense at the time but will push him away. Maybe the best thing is for him to get pushed away.

Why don't you ask to hold onto his cellphone? Any incoming or outgoing calls/texts must be in your presence. Of course, he will have access to phones at work, but if they are LD calls, the company won't be happy at all.

Get a key to his vehicle from him right away. If he is thinking about staying, he might give it to you. He may try to hide a second cellphone in there, so you should have full access to his hiding places.

KLD, I read the other vets say to ignore that question of how do you know. He doesn't need to know how you know. Keep the focus on the fact taht you do know. Reread the vets' posts before you go into this tonight. I apologize for getting into his possible motives earlier. Going down that rabbit hole! Only fog to be found there, and you've probably heard more than your share of that already!

Thanks, Cat, for the reminder to keep the focus on the actions/behaviors and not the blaming/judgments!

(((KLD)))

Hon, at this point, you are not responsible for ANYTHING! Get that through your head. You could have been a sloppy housekeeper, totally ignored him, even a crack addict, but HE HAD THE AFFAIRS! Don't let him forget that. No matter what you've done in the marriage HE had the affairs. YOU didn't break the marriage vows. Nothing else matters. That is ALL this talk is about - him screwing around. Don't let him derail that. In fact, one of your 3 phrases could be 'This isn't about me; it's about what YOU did.' Strong stuff, because it's exactly about what he did.

Thanks for reminding me of basics that I've allowed myself to drift from.

On Sunday I wouldn't tell him where any of my info came from. I did a great job of keeping that to myself or allowing him to come to his own conclusions about where the data came from. Also, I didn't allow him to push any blame towards me. I reminded him several times that "foresaking all others" meant no inappropriate relationships with anyone at any time.

I'm very nervous about tonight's talk. I think I'm more afraid that he will say he wants to work it out and that he will agree to a bunch of stuff that he won't follow through with. I think that will be more difficult than just going forward with a D.

KLD,

Good job on EVERYTHING!!!! Your comment to him on walking out on the conversation if he gets angry is PERFECT!!!! I said that to my husband several times at the beginning and sometimes still have to. It brings him back to reality EVERY time.

You need to read several books, all by Patricia Evans: The Verbally Abusive Relationship, Controlling People, The Verbally Abusive Man:Can He Change. Start with the last one because it will give you some quick understanding of who and what you are dealing with and help you decide if you WANT to try and make this work.

My husband and I are reading these out loud.

I have found that it is almost impossible to use some MB principles when verbal abuse is present. Verbal and Emotional abuse seems to be vrey present in your marriage(as well as mine).

Like yours, my husband seemed to view EVERYTHING that came out of my mouth as a LB.

I am understanding now that we have to address those issues BEFORE we can get to POJA, PORH, LBs and even ENs. We are making progress. BUT.......here's where my advice is I KNOW different than the vets because it it is not conventional to MB wisdom. When you are dealing with abuse, MB principles appear to the abuser as weakness and an opportunity to continue wayward thinking.

Do not Plan A. You have been doing that and it did not work. Do not worry about calling the OW names. Don't go out of your way to do it but don't let it bother you if you do.
Cat is right about everything about how to speak with this abuser.

I can not emphasize enough that you must NOT worry about LBs. That is not an issue right now. It will be IF you are going to rebuild your M. BUT... when he senses that you are trying to be your usual, sensible calm self, he will run right over the top of you. He is completely unimpressed by your logic and your good sense. He will understand your ANGER to some degree though.

Say WHAT you want, ask WHAT you want, show ANY emotion you want. This is important!!!!

It sounds odd, but despite the fact that affairs are abusive, not every WS IS an abusive person.As I read the forums I can see that when a WS is NOT basically an abusive person,that it is possible to start implementing MB principles pretty quickly. ven then the roller coaster ride is pretty wild. But WHEN they are, it makes the situation different. You MUST handle the abuser differently and realize that most of the MB principles will not work yet.

Truth be told, I HATE having to deal with these abuse issues. It would be much easier to get to LBs and ENs, but that's not going to happen yet. Slowly.

This is what I meant by your H not being a common run-of-the-mill cheater. Remember when you talk to him tonight that he is VERY practiced at this. He has been practicing HOW he is going to turn this to his benefit.

YOU ARE DOING A GREAT JOB!!!!! KEEP SAYING WHAT YOU NEED TO SAY!!!

I apologize to you if this advice does not seem to fit and to all vets who might be offended at my advice. I am not able to convey my total depth of thought here.

Talking to an abuser is confusing when you are trting to make sense ofyour life with him. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF!!!!

I am still hopeful of rcovery for the both of you together but either way I KNOW you wil recover.

Praying,
WH2LE

So it sounds like just saying stuff is not something that you're enthusiastic about. That's progress, right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What do you think about what you all were saying earlier about letting him come up with a plan with Jennifer, and then seeing if you would be enthusiastic about that? I would think that plan would include a lot more than just empty words. Including actions like signing that paperwork for you tonight and sending NC letters.