Understandable. Which is why you have to be firmly in control of IF and HOW he gets to come back to your bed. Ever. Never deviate from this position - that now YOU call all the shots if he is to have any chance with you, or he will use it against you. So stay mad. If he wants to stay, make it VERY hard for him to follow the rules. That way he won't forget about them. I've found with D17 that if my punishment rules for her aren't big, 'out there, in your face' things, we all tend to let them slide and forget about them after a few days or weeks. So whatever rules you devise, make them measurable by you and something you can take out and look at once a week to make sure he's honoring them.

I never thought of WH as so much an abuser, but I get in a way he is in an emotional sense. He never says mean and nasty things to me, he doesn't say things to make me feel bad about myself, he doesn't crtiticize me. He never has once done anything to physically hurt me, intimidate me, or frighten me. He isn't really the passive aggressive type, either. I guess he's just a liar about things he doesn't want me to know about and that is abusive behavior. I truly never thought about it in that way.

EO - I like the idea of suggesting that he develop his own plan with Jennifer. I don't know if he will do that or not, but I will suggest it as an option. Not seeking counseling will probably be a deal breaker for me - I haven't made my mind up completely on that one because I want to wait and see how some of the other things go before I decide on that or not as a deal breaker.

I just came from my counseling session. My C pointed a few things out to me - some that I missed and some that I knew but didn't understand. He said that the way I've painted my WH to him he sounds weak, a push-over, not very smart, unable to make good decisions, he's emotionally disconnected, that I'm better and smarter than him, and that he is somehow below me. He did say that some of this may come because I'm angry right now, but these are the things that I'm projecting about him. I didn't realize that I've been painting such a negative picture of him. Some of what he said is true to a certain degree - emotionally disconnected and bad decisions (duh - he had an A with a big time loser). I truly don't think of him as all the negative things he says I've projected. This is something we're going to dig into next week.

He also said that I tend to be assigning more guilt and blame to OW than WH. This is something I was aware of. I'm so angry at my H I could spit nails, but I wish harm to the OW. C said this may go back to the fact that I'm giving WH a pass because "he's not smart enough to know better." I don't really feel that way, but that's how it's coming across to C.

The other thing he suggested is that I start getting more focused back on my work. I've neglected it for weeks now and it's starting to show. I'm stressed about it and I can't afford to lose my job at this time. He suggested that I spend my work day doing my work and don't try to find new ways to catch WH in a lie, worry if he's talking to OW, search for new info, etc. He says that I have enough info and I'm sure I do. If he's going to talk to her I'll know and can deal with it. I think this is good advice, but I seem to be addicted to checking his bank account, his cell phone account, etc every hour or so. Geez. I'm a nutjob, too!!!!!

hi sweet kld,

i think you have been amazing though all of this. you are not a nut case at all!
you are trying to find your way through a most difficult situation that you were tossed into by him.

k, one question i am wondering is, what is it about him that would make you even want to continue to be married to him? you do not have kids. he is not the main bread winner who is providing you with an amazing life style ( sorry guys but ... ) his is a liar. his does not even seem, at this point anyways, to care that he has hurt you to the deepest core your your being.

you seem to be such an amazing compassionate lady with so much going. i hate to see you settle for less than what you deserve.

sorry if this goes against all the mb concepts of keeping m intact but after seeing all you have been through it is something that is going thru my head.

i love cat's info re: repeating this is all about what he has done to you and your m. it is the truth. period.

you are in my thoughts. you are amazing!

hugs ...

I can see how checking and rechecking can become habit-forming; I do it here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But it would definitely help you to get some perspective, step back and breathe and feel healthier, if you distance yourself from the 'tracking' and only do it, say, 3 times a day. C's right; you already have enough evidence. Just work on you, now.

I wouldn't worry too much about your DJ of H at this point. Maybe in a month, if you're still doing it. Let yourself grieve. And it's human nature to put down the other person when you're hurting and wounded, so you feel like you're a worthwhile person. Just make sure it's temporary, to help you through the hard times of the first few weeks.

Abusive? There are all kinds. Some are so mild that their only agenda is to make sure that they have the last say on things, or that you 'understand' they're right. IMO, anyone who manipulates another person enough to hurt that person, for their own gain, is abusive. Because it shows a self-centeredness and cold shoulder to the other person's pain. I only suggest that to you, so that you don't allow your baggage with him to color your vision. He knows your buttons; he knows what makes you cave, care for him, forgive him, doubt yourself - everyone knows that about their spouse. The test is whether someone is willing to use that knowledge for their own gain. Don't let him use it.

Have you let your support group know that tonight is 'the night'? I would.

And good luck! We'll be rooting for you and praying for you tonight!

Thank you mrs_n for your kind words. As for your question - I wonder the same thing, too, quite often. Why would I want to stay with someone who has behaved this way and betrayed me so deeply? So far, the answer is complicated. I do love him. He is so much fun and his sense of humor keeps me laughing all the time when things are good. He used to be thoughtful and caring and I believe he can be again. The last year (just over a year, actually) is the only time since I've known him that he hasn't worked very hard and made good money. He has the ability and the capacity to be an equal financial partner and work with me to build a very comfortable life for us.

On the negative side, he has always been difficult to communicate with. He holds his feelings inside. He has been lying to me for alot longer than I realized. He can be moody and withdrawn, though that just may be his guilt at this point.

So, I see the good in him and think he and I are very compatible, but I'm not sure we can recover from where we are today. Even if he does everything I require, I may still have trouble trusting him. I feel the need to give it that shot, though, because I did marry him with the idea that this was for the rest of my life. If I have to leave the M, I want to be completely certain that I've done everything I can do to make it work. Many have told me that I've already done that - most of the people in my life feel that way because they know ALL the history that's just not possible to put on a message board.

I know for sure that I won't be played again, though. This is his last chance.

KLD, be assured that adultery is the WORST KIND of abuse a spouse can inflict on someone he is supposed to love and protect. It is an act of cruelty that Dr. Harley places in the same category as RAPE or the death of a child. People have nervous breakdowns and commit suicide from this kind of abuse. Not only is there psychological abuse, but he has endangered your health by exposing you to STDs. So don't underestimate adultery, it is WORSE than verbal or physical abuse. It is the WORST KIND of abuse there is.

KLD, I would suggest that you hear him out but see if he will agree to a) send the OW a no contact letter and b) commit to a program of recovery.

Dr Jennifer Chalmers would be the PERFECT one to give y'all a plan and help you get on track.

Here is what needs to happen in order to recover this marriage: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

about forgiveness: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

KLD,

You are NOT a nutjob. You are extremely smart and I cannot tell you how I obsessed over checking up on my FWS. I probably looked like a nutjob sometimes, but you know what, he was my H and I had a right to know these things.

You have a RIGHT to know. If you have had to spy, so WHAT? However, you do have a lot of info. So did I, but you know, after 7 years of recovery, I STILL check up on my H. Things are never the same. My H has not hidden anything from me yet, I have all passwords and access to whatever he does. And it should be that way.

A lot of things will have to change for you two to get into recovery.

It is a good thing tho, to focus on your work. I know how hard that is when you are in the midst of all this. I was very lucky I did not lose my job either. I was much worse off than you are. I could not stop crying, could not sleep or eat for 6 weeks. You are doing great!!!!

It's going to be hard, but try and let things go when you are at work and concentrate on that, especially as you do not know what the future holds at this moment.It might even be a relief to let things go for the time you are at work. Start on YOUR personal recovery, starting today at work.

(((HUGS!!))) KLD, remember that you are WORTHY!!!!!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Thanks for your input, Cat. It always helps me to hear what you have to say.

I have let my support group know that he says he will talk to me tonight. They all know that I confronted him on Sunday.

I have my parents, brother, SIL, and 4 girlfriends who have been wonderful to me. My family is all just furious with him now and my friends all hate him. They make bad jokes about him and the trash he took up with - at least it gives me a short bit of comic relief.

KLD, also, you will have to continue snooping on him for the time being. THAT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST. You have to protect yourself. You are under assault and this is your method of protection. You can't very well give up your only defense while you are under fire.

Melody - thanks for the links. I hear what you're saying about how abusive an affair is - I'm living it now and never understood it before. Having to have an STD screening was the most humiliating and degrading experience. I wanted to just crawl in a hole that day.

I've had 2 sessions with Jennifer and she helped me a great deal. I'm going to suggest that we work with her on a plan. I also plan to have some examples of NC letters to give to him and see if he will send one. Someone suggested this to me a while back when it came time for confrontation, but I don't remember who.

I have to say that if his plan for recovery is that we do it alone together with me trusting what he says that will be a deal breaker for me.

Miss M - question for you about your recovery...

So your H gave you all his passwords and let you look at his phone and did all the right things there. How were you ever sure he didn't have a secret email account that he only looked at from his work computer? How were you ever sure he didn't have a secret cell phone that was a "throw away" type? How did you know that he didn't make calls from work? These are things I'm worried about getting past with my H.

Geez. I'm a nutjob, too!!!!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


No, you are not. You are a good person who is trying to make the best of a bad situation. Of course, you already know that, I was just confirming it to you.

If you read back over the last four or five days you have posted, you will see a person who really wants to do well, but is struggling to make it work.

I have been praying - for me, my parents (who are taking this really, really hard), my WH, and also OW. I've had a hard time praying for her, but I've managed to do it some. I guess my prayer may get cancelled out, though, when after I say "Amen" I wish she'd get run over by a bus?????? LOL.

It's difficult to know how to help right now. It looks like you have hard time knowing what to do. I would guess you go back and forth between wanting to do all you can to make it work, and wanting to kick him to the curb.

Keep in mind..........

That you don't have to make all your decisions tonight. In fact, it might be well to just talk, and go into this discussion knowing you will not decide until you have more time to think.

There are two different recoveries - The recovery of your marriage, and your personal recovery. You have plenty of time to think about your marriage, and what you want to do with it. Most of us want that resolved first - but you really do have some time. It may be that he won't be honest tonight, and that he won't help the marriage recover.

That has nothing to do with your wellbeing. Oh, it does affect the short term stress, but think about this for a few minutes. Part of this is about you finding out who he is, but part is about you finding out who you are.

You have learned a lot about yourself thus far. Some of it is good, some perhaps not so good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Think about who you are, and what kind of a person you want to be. Use this information to determine how you interact with him. What will most serve your purposes tonight? Anger, or calm?

It may help to outline for us what you know, and what you see as your choices. Of course, only on your break, we wouldn't want you to do it on company time.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Many of us are praying for you. I hope you feel God's help as you prepare.

SS

You will never know those things. There is no way to be sure. You just have to continue to spy your [censored] off, KLD, because eventually he will screw up and you will catch him.

Here is a sample no contact letter from SAA:

[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

KLD,

Melodylane is right, you will never know these things. I am fortunate, or unfortunate if you will that my H has no work computer, he is a musician, and for a long time I was more worried about his gigs and his cell phone than anything else. I am much more computer literate than my H. He has never used our computer for any of the affair stuff. I went to just about every gig he had for about 2 years after we started recovery, heck, before we started recovery really.

I have relaxed on that, but I will still show up unexpectedly. I still give the fish eye to any strange woman that approaches my H. LOL. I keep a diligent watch to protect my marriage.

Trust comes with time, honesty, and transparency. Oh, and no contact. I don't know of any marriages that recovered when there was continued contact. That happened with me, and it really set back our recovery, it took much longer.

Anyway, enough about me. You are doing great and I am amazed at your self control.

When will you start on your plan of personal recovery?

Love in Christ,
Miss M

KLD,

Maybe I am off base here, but I am worried about a counselor who is so concerned about the negative way he thinks you are painting your husband. It seems to me that his concern should be about YOU and your self-image at this point.

I think you are doing wonderfully in every respect.

I only ask you to consider the possibility of your husband being abusive. Honestly, he sounds EXACTLY like my H. I have never been concerned for my physical welfare either and he can make me laugh like no one else. when he's good he's FANTASTIC!!! When the MC asked why I was staying with him I said exactly what you did. We are very compatible in many ways.

I have been very frustrated because the MB principles have been so difficult to implement. Once the 2 of us began to see HIM as being an emotionally abusive personality, we began starting to make some headway(slow to be sure).

It is my hope that we will ultiamtely have an MB marriage.

My H did NOT have an A because his needs were not being met. He had it because he is abusive.It has been all-important for me to understand this. He likes to have secrets and to always have "one up" on someone. I am not the cause of his abuse but I AM the recipient. It has been difficult, nigh impossible, for him to use POJA because of these tendencies. But I am hopeful now.

Praying for you tonight.

You are not a nutjob. YOU are behaving normally in an abnormal stuation. I applaud you KLD.

WH2LE

I think I mis-represented the context that my C said I was painting my H in a negative light. What he said was that I was focusing on so much negativity about someone else (WH) that I was neglecting the things I needed to do for myself. He didn't necessarily mean that I needed to look for positive things in WH. The biggest part of our conversation today was my anger, where it is coming from, and how to express it appropriately. The second thing was doing things to make myself whole again and focus on immediate needs such as my job, my health, etc. He gave the same advice that the M is important, but I don't have to decide today or tomorrow how I'm going to handle it.

When I got home tonight a little bit later than normal, WH wasn't home. He'd gone to get a latte. I had stopped at the store to get a quick and easy dinner to fix. I wasn't hungry, really, but I knew he'd want something. He never called me and I didn't call him all day long.

When he returned from the coffee shop, he said he didn't know what time I'd be home (I was about 45 minutes - 1 hour later than normal) so he went ahead and fixed himself a sandwich. That seemed so selfish to me - we always eat dinner together unless there's a phone call to confirm that one will be very late. At least I didn't have to prepare anything and clean up, and I wasn't hungry, but it still seemed so insensitive given our current circumstances.

So, I put on my pjs and sat on the couch waiting for him to open the conversation he promised. He took out his digital camera and downloaded photos from his work site today and showed them to me. From there, he was up and down doing one thing then another. I stayed waiting on the couch. Finally at 9PM he said he was tired and was going to bed.

I broke my rule again. I had promised myself that this is his deal to fix and that I should wait on him to do his part. In my head I had decided that if I don't hear from him by Thursday night I'm filing for D on Friday. Something inside me felt the need to speak to him. I went into his room and just told him that I had been expecting to discuss his A tonight as he had promised last night and this morning. He said he is still trying to work out in his head what he needs to say to me. I told him he needs to understand that it looks like he's trying to get his story straight. I also told him that I realize verbalizing his thoughts is difficult, but from here forward he must get that fixed - not just for this situation but for the rest of our life together if there is to be a future for us. I told him he didn't do himself any favors by making a promise to talk and then not even mentioning it. I told him I will not mention it again and that from here forward the ball is completely in his court. He did say that he wants to keep the M and he's trying to figure out how to tell me what I need to know.

I looked at his text records again tonight - there are about 20 more from last night. I can't tell yet if there has been contact today or not. I think I'm going to have a huge problem with NC here. I won't be the first on that one, though, will I?

"The biggest part of our conversation today was my anger, where it is coming from, and how to express it appropriately"

Well, I would venture a guess your anger is because hubby is lying to you about contact with the OW, continuing constant contact, and telling you he has to work out in his mind how to have the promised talk that he lied about, while all the while continuing contact with some sleaze. Not being a "counselor", I'm just throwing that out there.

KLD, I think you have very good instincts about this and are handling it brilliantly. There is absolutely nothing wrong with telling him about your disappointment in his failure to discuss this. You did exactly the right thing.

He needs to know that he cannot just brush this off as if nothing happened and I have a feeling that is what he wants to do. He is hoping it will die back down so he can go back to business as usual. You are RIGHT to pursue this with him.

Please continue to trust your instincts because they are DEAD ON, KLD. Now is the time to be firm and honest about your feelings and you have done a good job of that.

I do think that you will have a rough time with nc if it comes to that. I hope I am wrong about that.

I mistook your slowness to confront him as WEAKNESS, and I can see now that I misjudged you. You are not weak, you are just very METHODICAL and very determined. You are doing GREAT and you are doing great under DURESS.

KLD, just wanted to pop in and let you know I'm thinking of you. (((KLD)))