Melody, I've had 2 sessions with Jennifer already. Would you suggest Steve over her? Or because maybe WH would possibly better relate to a man? I had planned to set up some time with Jennifer, but am not opposed to Steve at all.

He said he will send a NC letter. I don't know if he will follow up on that or if I will have to lead that effort. If he doesn't initiate it, I do plan to remind him of his promise to do it.

He still contends he hasn't communicated with OW at all since Monday. I know this to be untrue. I confronted him again this morning and he says there have been no text messages. His cell account said otherwise first thing this morning. I printed it off. Went in a few minutes ago again and the password doesn't work any more. So, he figured out that I might have access to his online account. I'm not sure how to handle this one at all. I called him a few minutes ago and asked if he had communicated with her today and he asked if I knew something I wasn't telling him. I said that his past behavior makes me know in my gut that he is still talking to her. He said he will show me anything I want to look at tonight. I reminded him that by tonight he will be able to delete anything that he doesn't want me to see. He said he wouldn't clean anything up (yeah, right.) I told him it feels like he is setting himself up to continue contact just under the radar so I won't know. He promises that this isn't the case - I know a lie when I hear one, now though, and I'm not sure how to handle this one.

I would poke around this comment if I were you.

talking points:

1. What behaviors/circumstances are likely to create a happy life?


2.HOW might a person's INTEGRITY and SELF RESPECT contribute to creating a happy life?

3. What joy might come from standing in the sunshine of truth instead of hiding in the shadows of lies?

..... In other words .... engage in a conversation that is about ideas, principles, personal values .... and for this one conversation avoid all the ins/outs of his affair .... have a deep and personal conversation about the meaning of life.

Report back !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just tell him you have been using a PI service and the spy technology PIs use these days is nothing he will be able to outsmart. Tell him that is all you are going to say on the matter and the rest is up to him. Let that little morsel float around in his brain for awhile.

I forgot you had counseled with her. I would stick with her.


I would use the template in Surviving an Affair on pg 58. But this is all for naught if he is staying in contact and lying about it.


Tell him when he gets home that you know he is lying and ask for an explanation. Tell him this is impossible if he intends on lying to you. Ask him for ALL his passwords.

Everytime you catch him lying, lay it out there.

because ... you need to get a ~read~ on his character ... if he ever thinks about his life/happiness in any way other than moment-to-moment gratification.

If he is only a moment-to-moment sort of guy - he is a very poor risk for future fidelity.

Following is my letter to OW mother. It may sound too needy or it may make OWM feel defensive about her D... Please offer critiques if you have time.

Dear OWM,

My name is KLD and I’m the wife of WH. WH and I have been married just over seven years. My husband and my marriage are very important to me.

Your daughter, OW, and my husband have been having an affair. I’ve recently discovered this affair and have confronted him with what I know. He has chosen to stop the affair, and together, he and I are trying to recover our marriage.

Our recovery will not be possible if contact from your daughter continues. I’m writing you in hope that you will be willing to assert a mother’s influence to help your daughter step away from my husband so we can work on our marriage without interference from her. I’m hopeful that you also value marriage and understand my strong desire to use every avenue available to me to save mine.

I have no idea if you are open to speaking to your daughter about this situation or not, but I humbly ask for your help. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for everything you can and will do.

Sincerely,

He's trying to cake-eat. He's still lying. If he's sincere, then he'll give up ALL passwords to EVERYTHING. You might remind him about the difference between privacy and secrecy. There should be NO secrets. He KNOWS you know. Amazing that he thinks you'll buy his lies after everything you exposed to him.

Maybe time for Plan B?

Pepper - I agree with your idea. I will open the conversation on this topic. It's one we used to have alot when we were first married. I do believe my WH gets it at his core, but he is admittedly out of control right now.

I reminded him this morning that the truth might make me angry or hurt, but the lies will kill the M. I also reminded him that this is his last chance - next step is D if the lies continue.

KLD,

Well, your WS is obviously still in contact if he changed his password.

I agree with PM, you need to get all of his passwords, just as a start in recovery.

God Bless, you have done an awesome job, and are in my prayers.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

I think the letter is just fine.

I would demand that the NC letter be written, signed, and delivered tonight - by both of you. Of course, I'm sure by now he has told he 'has to' write her a letter, so just ignore it. Sorry if that hurts, but it's what I believe.

I would demand all his passwords and when he gives them to you, go immediately to the website or wherever you're getting the information, and test them. If he refuses to give them to you, tell him to pack his bags and leave.

I would demand a key to his car.

If you have to tell him the truth about how you get your information, just make it plain that you will hereonin have complete access to every piece of electronics he has, or he will leave.

Sorry if that's harsh, but he's obviously thinking he's outsmarting you. You can't live like that. I know you love him, but I see an awful lot of you saying 'well, I was going to do that, but I'm going to hold off for awhile.' IMO, that is very dangerous thinking, and to H is a wide open net that he can sneak through anything he wants, and he knows it.

Can you relay your conversations to your B and SIL and M, and ask them if it sounds like he's manipulating you?

^ He is attempting to play you with that statement above. He does not think he'll miss her because he doesn't plan to stop contact with her..and he hasn't, which you have proof of...If he can get you comfortable enough to believe he is working on your M, he is probably thinking you will back off some and he can continue on with the A...

I would be concerned about the fact that he has a cell phone you don't have access to, even if he gives you his personal passwords, what about the cell phone issued from his job? Can you get access to those records by requesting that he talk to his company about setting up a reimbursement plan, where the bill comes to your home and they reimburse him for the charges? He has a secret life and is so entrenched in it, all of those areas need to be completely transparent if there is any hope to recover with him.

He asked you if you knew something that you weren't telling him..all that says is that he is concerned that you are on to him but hasn't figured out exactly how you know he is still in contact.. he is trying to figure out a way to take his A underground so it won't be detectable by you..and that is concerning.

Does your WH have any spiritual foundation? Any church?

I do like your letter to the OW's mother and think it is perfect.

The things on catpersons list are non negotiable issues, however, I WOULD NOT FRAME THEM AS A DEMAND. You are much less likely to get any of that if presented that way. Agreed, these are non negotiable boundaries, but the way to present them is like this:

"In order to restore trust and recover our marriage, I must feel SAFE. In order for me to MOVE FORWARD with this, the ways to acheive this would be:

1. gave me passwords

2. xxx

3. xxxx"

And again, I emphasize these are not negotiable items, but don't demand. Let him know you are WILLING TO PURSUE RECOVERY IF HE IS WILLING TO DO CERTAIN THINGS TO MAKE YOU FEEL SAFE. "This is what it will take for our marriage to recover."

If you don't mind a suggestion from the peanut gallery here.

Don't make promises you are unable, or unwilling to keep.

You say he knows D is next if he continues to lie, and you say you know he has lied to you today! This sends the signal to him that he can lie again because you won't follow through with your threat of D.

So which lie will make you actually follow through with the D? Does he get a week to finally come clean on everything and then it's the next lie?

Not trying to push you one way or the other, and this is just an observation. If you warned about D when he lies again and you don't follow through, he will learn it's okay to lie with no consequence, and it will make you look weak and be somewhat of a liar yourself which you don't want to do.

Don't make any promises or demands that you aren't absolutely willing to follow up on.

Just trying to help.

I agree with all of you that he is probably still playing me. He has promised to share all passwords tonight. He also has promised to give me access to everything I ask for. I'm going to make a list and have him share tonight.

As for the cell phone thing - I'm worried about that, too. He says he is cancelling his personal cell phone since he will now have the work one - doesn't need 2 of them. I don't trust that he will actually only have 1 cell phone or that she won't have access to the work cell phone number. I'm going to try to get him to work with me on a plan for me to see those records.

I agree that he has probably already told her to ignore the NC letter. I may be crazy, but I've asked my PI what she would recommend as next steps if there's anything I can do besides follow him 24/7. The good thing is that she lives 4 hours away, but that makes it hard to know when they might try to get together again.

As for church affiliation - he is a believer, but not a church goer. I'm a Christian but don't attend church regularly.

Another thought I had was to make a list of all my passwords and give it to him. I offered that to him last night and he said he doesn't need that from me because he trusts me. He has known my email password before, but probably forgot it at some point. I think I'm going to make that list, anyway, and give it to him.

FormerPF - great point. I guess in all the crap I didn't think about it that way. You're right, though, that I'm not really going to file for divorce because he lied to me today about NC.

I like Cat's and Melody's suggestions about the things that are non-negotiable but putting them in the form of a request to help me feel safe in our M. Also, as the path to getting out from under constant scrutiny for him.

Don't waste your time. The first thing he is going to do is get one of those untraceable phones and hide it from you...and he'll probably buy her one too. He will probably hide it up under the dashboard of his car.

KLD, I sent my husband my email accounts with passwords soon after we were married. He had given me his, I felt it was a good policy. If you send it in email, he can keep it or delete it, as he pleases.

I agree with catperson, all passwords, non-negotiable. Evidence of new, secret accounts, phones, there will be a consequence.

I get the feeling that you are not concerned about the life insurance policy or retirement fund, but I still have an inkling that with such a cold, calculating man (why on earth would he change the password to his account? Knowing if you have been accessing it, you will also know if he changes the password? Why? Because he is lying to you and plans to keep lying to you. He has brazenly put that right in your face with this action,) money (in any form, including support, combined incomes, etc.) may be at the core. (I hope not.)

I personally would want to know that he was staying *only* for me, not because of $$ he has coming. The consequence for non-transparency could be that he will have to sign off on those docs.

There is no law that say's you cannot contact the OW. I would approach at as woman-to-woman vs. I hate you, you B*. That way she might let her guard down.

I cannot tell you how much valuable information I got out of my husband's EA via just one phone call to the OW.

More on the password issue. I would call that cold fish up and say, "So you figured out I was accessing your online cell phone account. So what? I had to see just how deep your lies ran. Why did you change it? Are you telling me that is how you plan to be HONEST and TRANSPARENT with me?" But that's me. I really wish you the best.

KLD, he deserves constant scrutiny. I think sometimes it is hard for us to accept, "If I make this or that tough condition, he might actually leave me, and I don't want that."

But weigh what he is doing to you now vs. the life you will have with him in the future. For every one thing you let him get away with now, he will plan to get away with ten times that in the future.

It might make him nervous to be under constant scrutiny. Let it. That's going to be for the rest of his life. He might as well get used to it now.

V said:
I would call that cold fish up and say, "So you figured out I was accessing your online cell phone account. So what? I had to see just how deep your lies ran. Why did you change it? Are you telling me that is how you plan to be HONEST and TRANSPARENT with me?"

I love this !!

K,
I like your letter to OW's mother too. My opinion is that you did a good job with it.

SS