earsopen, I would not do this today for a couple of reasons. First off, it will be the subject of their discussion tonight if she does and can only get in the way. He will be angry and right now she needs to have a calm, rational discussion with him about their future.

Secondly, she has not yet decided IF she will stay married or not. [I realize there are some exposures that will take place regardless of that status] If she does decide to stay married, her exposure list will be contingent upon his adherence to no contact.

In short, she needs to decide which way she is going to go before she compiles the exposure list. Nor does she need that distraction before her talk tonight. I think it would be better from a strategic standpoint to wait one day.


She has not yet decided IF she wants to stay married. She may decide it is not in her best interest.

E_O,
You are correct in that exposure is important, and that usually it will give the marriage a better chance.

My thoughts are along these lines......

We know he has been involved with more than one OW. If I am reading KLD correctly, she wants HONESTY from HIM before SHE will commit to the marriage. I don't believe exposure will make him any more honest. This doesn't look to me like a case of needs not being met. It doesn't look like someone failing to protect boundaries, and accidentally falling for someone else. What it does look like is someone who lives a secret second life because they want it that way, and who is even now trying to figure out how to keep things the way they are.
I hope this is not true, but I believe she will find out when she talks to him tonight. If it is true, I don't believe she will want to keep him, and if she does not, then exposure for saving the marriage will be moot.

SS

I'd give him ONE shot to come clean tonight. He's had plenty of time to figure out what he NEEDS to say to you. If he doesn't, I'd go straight to Plan D. If he does, THEN you can give him a list of your requirements for recovery. Sexymamabear had a great list for her FWH. He was more than willing to meet every one her requirements and THEN some. Remember, his actions in the long run... not his words... will be all the proof you need of his sincerity. Tonight, the LEAST he needs to do it own up to his adultery and ask what he can do.

thanks, guys, for explaining, that makes a lot of sense. I am so glad that KLD has this support. And after I posted that, I saw KLD had decided that way, too.

and while I'm here (((KLD)))

I'd give him ONE shot to come clean tonight. He's had plenty of time to figure out what he NEEDS to say to you. If he doesn't, I'd go straight to Plan D.

There was a time I would have agreed with you 100%. And I should say again, that It doesn't look good for him. However, I have seen cases on MB where the WS didn't commit right at first, wouldn't agree to counseling, had a hard time giving up OP, but did all these things over time, and the marriage was recovered.

I am kind of assuming KLD's position (needing honesty from him to continue) based on things she has said in many posts over time. There is always a chance (even if very small) that he can come around over time, even if he isn't ready yet. I suggest KLD listen tonight, and make decisions later so that she doesn't have any regrets.

It's easy to say "I feel the same today, as I did yesterday, so I think I'll go ahead with a D."
It's more difficult to say "Did I ask for a D yesterday? Ha, Ha, I was just kidding, lets work on our M."
Things can be said in the heat of the moment that can double or triple the work of recovery.

To everyone -
This being a public forum, there are sometimes conflicting views. Don't let that keep you from posting. Your ideas are valuable. I think the suggestions that have been posted are very good ones, and helpful to her, depending on what she chooses to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SS

Okay, I see that. But don't you agree that at the LEAST he needs to ADMIT his adultery? Did I miss it where he's done that already? If I did, then forget what I said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Unless they are depraved? She is an OW. I woldn't make any assumptions about her moral values. I for one wouldn't give an OP a reason (or 150 thousand of them) to wish for my death.

KLD: I think federal law only prevents you from assigning more than 50% of your retirement benefits to a non-spouse beneficiary. You may be able to do 50% without any consent (or knowledge).

- WG

PM -
Okay, I see that. But don't you agree that at the LEAST he needs to ADMIT his adultery? Did I miss it where he's done that already? If I did, then forget what I said.

KLD -
I asked him again if he has anything to say and he again said he's sorry. He said he does have some things to say to me, but he wants to think it through before he does.

We get these things 2nd hand - so it's hard to know his exact words. (NO disprect to KLD intended) I would take his saying he is sorry as a kind of admission, but I am just hearing "sorry," not seeing evidence of it. That's what bothers me the most. From what we can see, it's not an out and out admission, but more of a back handed one. Kind of like saying "You are not as dumb as I thought you were." It's better than being called stupid, but not quite the real thing either.

PM, I don't like what he is doing at all. It looks like he doesn't care, and that the A continues. I really hope KLD doesn't show her hand tonight (or any time soon.) I hope she keeps her sources hidden. If she lets him do most of the talking it will tell her a lot more than if she confronts again. He is on trial, and he has to know that. IF he continues to lie, and hide things, then she doesn't have any thing at all (right now.)It's not to say that good won't come of it ever, or that she ought to file for a D. It means he is not repentant, and it will be a lot of work if she still wants to work on the marriage.

At that point, she will get to decide what she wants to do. She doesn't have to tell HIM anything yet one way or the other.

He could say -

"I can do whatever I want, you can't tell me what to do. I will continue to see whoever I want, whenever I want."

or

"Yes, I was wrong, but I have stopped contact with OW, and I want to work on the marriage."

or

" I am so sorry for what I did. I know I hurt you, and there is no excuse for it. I have continued to contact OW, and I can't seem to quit. Please help me, I feel so lost. I want to work on the marriage, I want to make things right."

Of course there could be variations on these -

The easiest thing for KLD to say, is a simple "Thanks for talking to me, I'll think about all of this, and get back to you in a few days."

If pressed, she can say "I'm not sure what I want, and I don't want to talk about it until I do know."

KLD, I don't mean to talk about you as if you are not here. Hopefully these exchanges will be of some help to you. I am only giving general suggestions, you should modify to fit your style and circumstances.

SS

I like this! Gives her time to let it all sink in and really think about what she wants to do after hearing what he says.

PM, you are very good help!!

Keep posting...........

These are great suggestions and insights. Thanks so much. I do plan to say as little as I can. I also do plan to not make any big decisions tonight.

I did get an admission from him - I guess I didn't post it. I asked how long he'd been sleeping with her (edited to make me not look like a really big potty mouth..). He said he doesn't know because he didn't keep a log.

Yesterday I asked if he had used condoms and he said no.

I do have admissions, so now I need to hear what he has to say. We've had dinner and I'm about to get off the computer in hopes he will approach me about this. I will not bring it up tonight again if he doesn't do it. Like you all said - actions speak louder than words. Even though I'm looking for his words right this minute, the act of opening up will be a good first step.

Thanks again for all your help and especially your prayers.

KLD,

I too, LOVE the idea of saying you need some time to think about things. PERFECT!! It not only gives you time to think, it also gives him a taste of his own medicine(please excuse the slight desire to see a wee bit of payback).

Praying,
WH2LE

Well, the talk did happen tonight. He started it. Things were rocky at the start. I managed to never raise my voice and keep my cool even when he told me things that hurt. I did cry some, but not too much.

I eventually had to admit some of how I got my info. I basically said that alot of info is available online (which is true) and much of it came that way. I admitted to hiring a PI - figured no real harm in that since he pretty much already figured that out though he didn't know for sure. I had to tell him I have phone records, but I told him I called the phone co and they sent me some of the bills. He doesn't know I have access to his online acct.

He said he does want to work things out. Agrees to MC. Agrees to STD testing. Said he was getting rid of his old cell phone and will only use the new one he has provided by his new company. He promises she will not have access to the number and that he will bring the phone into the house every night. He still didn't own up to all the communication between them this week, though he did admit to some of it. He admitted giving her money, but said it wasn't much. He agreed to go through his bank records with me this weekend.

He wasn't very emotional and it seemed like he was choosing the M because it was the best option, not because it's really what he wants. I told him it seemed that way and he said that's not really how he feels. He said he is happy that I'm willing to try to work it out. I told him I couldn't make promises that I can get over this but that I will try. He told me that if I want a D, he will be hurt but understand and he wouldn't fight me over anything I want in the settlement.

I taped our conversation, but haven't been able to listen to it yet to see if it came out clearly or not. I had to hide it under the couch, so who knows if it came out or not.

I'm skeptical that he will be able to follow through with this, but I'm going to give it a chance. I told him that because of his history of lying about this woman, that one mis-step and I was filing for D at that point. This is his last chance and he knows it.

He said he truly was shocked at the things I found out about her history. He didn't know any of it - so he says. He said he was relieved that this is out in the open and he's very aware of what a huge mistake he made and what he almost lost.

Admitted to the porn and said he will stop that. Said he didn't look at it much. I actually guessed he must be looking at porn online if he was calling 800 sex numbers, so I asked and he admitted.

He agreed to share any info that I ask for from here forward. I promised that as he becomes transparent, the questions will slow down and eventually we will trust again.

Again, I probably talked too much, but I had to ask alot of questions to get info out of him. He wasn't so opposed to giving the info, just didn't quite know how to do it, I think. He did answer every question I asked. I don't think he told the complete truth every time and when I thought so I said so. In some cases he amended his answer slightly, but in most cases he stuck to his story.

So, that is my lengthy update. I don't know if we will survive, but I guess we're going to try. I know I will need advice moving forward. I am very concerned about contact with OW. He did agree to write a NC letter, let me approve and mail it.

Wow! Glad you got to finally have the conversation. But what if he was "addicted" to her and he goes through withdrawls, it will take time to get her out of his system. Will you be able and willing to help him through that?

kld, how do you feel? how's your self-care?

I forgot what papers you wanted him to sign, but is this the right time, while he's acting cooperative?

(((KLD)))

I will be willing to help him through withdrawal if he does his part of communication. I asked him last night if he thought he would miss her and go through a withdrawal period. He said he didn't think so if we could start right away working on us. I think he doesn't understand what's going to happen to him - I know because I've been here reading. If not for this information, I'd not know to expect withdrawal.

I told him again this morning that the truth - no matter what it is or how it hurts - will not stop recovery but the lies will kill us. He says he understands, but he's in such a pattern of lying that I don't know if he will be able to stop it or not.

He said he doesn't really have feelings for her, but he might be only saying that to spare my feelings. He said he was so unhappy with his life that her place was just a chance to be somewhere else.

EO - someone suggested that I could get him to sign paperwork changing my 401K and life insurance beneficiaries while we were working through this. I think I'm going to hold off on that for now.

As for me, I'm okay. Kind of shakey, though, and wishing I could take some time off work. I've let things slide a little far at work and I need to get back on track here. That's adding to my stress level. My Crohn's Disease is acting up still, though it's not an every day occurrence. I'm taking my medication for that regularly and waiting to find out when I can start the stronger drug that will be an IV treatment every 2 weeks. When I can get that started I should start feeling much better. Stress makes the Crohn's worse, but it doesn't cause a flare up. This flare up was going to happen, the stress in my life just probably made it worse and last longer.

KLD, I am so glad that you are so proactive about taking care of your health. I think your IC would be very proud, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My mom has Sjorn's disease, which is very similar to Chron's, and she has made a lot of good steps but is still working to get the level of treatment she needs. It is still very debilitating to her, but somehow she is still finding it within her to fight it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

KLD, here are some must reads for you, but I would STRONGLY SUGGEST that you get coaching from Steve HArley. Your H can speak to Steve one and one and he can help you both make a PLAN.

Will he send a no contact letter to her?

Surviving Infidelity: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

another great article:
Requirements for Recovery from an Affair


Dear Dr. Harley,

I discovered my husband's affair in May. He was very repentant, ended it and has been working very hard on our marriage ever since. I was not familiar with Marriage Builders at the time and I just followed my instincts. I suppose we are in recovery.

But our communication skills are almost non-existent. We only talk about things that are "safe." My husband’s idea of dealing with his affair is to put it behind us. I need to talk about it to heal. I am still having nightmares and sleeping little. I know nothing about this woman, including her name. He has refused to give me the information because he feels it is over so what difference would it make now. He has agreed to counseling but has been dragging his feet.

Our communication skills are so poor that I can't even bring up his affair for fear of "rocking the boat." He will not read any books or discuss the reasons for his affair with me. I am terrified it will happen again.

We went for a few counseling sessions over a year ago (before affair, communication issues) and it was a disaster. It was so much psycho-babble that neither of us could stand it. Where should we go from here?

Please advise.

K. R.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear K. R.,

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bc
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

EO - I didn't know about your mom's disease - actually I've never even heard of it. Seems funny I wouldn't since I've been dealing with Crohn's for 14 years. It's difficult to get some of these things under control sometimes. I hope your mom will find ways to improve so it's not so debilitating for her.