Through the years, I've tried to be strong in front of my D17, explain what's important, what I'm upset about, without emotion, be strong. But I really think that doing that let her off the hook, you know? She never really realized the importance of what I was saying. For instance sometimes in my depression, I was really close to losing it, going off somewhere and just ending things, because she and my H just blissfully move along, not helping with the house, not caring about anything, and I felt all alone. I told my friend I tried really hard not to cry in front of her. But my friend pointed out that maybe it was the crying that D17 really needed to see; otherwise, she'd never understand the importance of what I was saying, realize how desperately I needed her to listen to me - and help me.

I think you needed to be emotional. Like someone said earlier, and like my daughter, he needs to know how badly he's affecting you or he may not understand the horror of what he's done. I don't know if you follow wonderin's thread in Recovery, but I keep trying to point out to her that her H, from what she says, has NOT fully understood how deeply she's hurt because she's (I believe) been too accommodating to his needs and not...mean enough to him - and therefore (I believe) will never put her ahead of his own needs.

Like someone said about sometimes you have to demand, not request, sometimes you have to be more forceful and appear to be a b*tch than you are comfortable with - to get through to them. Anything else is just weak - and easy to ignore.

I hope you realize this is a manipulative move. People who use other people learn to do this to smooth their way to get what they want. I recommend NOT letting him ever do this when you are being serious.

And I hope you realize this is BS lying, and also deflecting, which is more manipulation. He's saying he's justified in hiding stuff from you simply because he's mad that you went to Cingular? Aw, poor baby! That would have been a good point to laugh at him. (but don't beat yourself up, because I think you did beautifully) I hope you will work hard to learn to recognize the manipulation more easily, because he will continue to 'work' you if you don't. Please consider reading some of the books suggested, like my favorite "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" (Bancroft). It will help you recognize the triggers of what they do and say, so you can protect yourself. And make your M stronger by 'teaching' him he can't do that any more.

You're doing great!

True! This is an old trick. You get into someone's space as a means of intimdation or manipulation.

I think you did great KLD. Loosing control of your emotions was not a BAD thing in this case. You've been so controlled throughout this whole thing. He needed to see some emotion.

KLD, thanks for keeping us posted. I can only imagine how stress-inducing this is for you right now. I'm sending more hugs and prayers your way! Can you feel them?

At this early point in recovery, is it appropriate to plan some RC this weekend? If so, what would you like to do?

We talked more after I posted last night about his contact with her. He did seem to take my loss of control very seriously. I think I worried him because I was very much out of control. I remember the look on his face when I had severe complications in 2003 from surgery when people were so worried that I would die. This was the same look on his face and I haven't seen it since then. I do believe he take this seriously and he does undertand the magnitude of what he's done.

All that being said, I still don't trust him. I told him that I'm willing to try for a while and he will get a million percent of my effort, but there will come a time when D will get a million percent of my effort if contact with OW continues along with the other behavior that has so damaged our M. I also said that I must see the same amount of effort from him because I'm no longer willing to do all the work to hold our family together.

So, that's the latest on conversations with WH.

Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions, support, and prayers. I do feel a little better today, but still so very stressed. I've actually been able to do some work today and yesterday, so that's a big step forward and one I'm sure my boss would be happy to know about if he was aware that I've been staring into space for the better part of 2008.

EO - great question about what we might do for RC this weekend. I hope I can get to the point where I can enjoy his company again soon because believe it or not, he's a great guy to be around when he's not being a liar and a cheat. I actually must shop for some new clothes this weekend. I've lost so much weight though this that things I got even a month ago are too big. Such a new concept for me because I've always been a little on the plump side.

Aside of that, maybe we can go for a nice dinner - it's something we always enjoy is good food. He wants to show me his new jobsite near Stone Mtn so maybe a stop into the park would be a good options and get both of our needs met there.

Now - here is my letter to OW to go out via email to both of her email addresses that I know of:

OW,

You should be aware by now that I know about your affair with WH. I’m sure he’s told you that we have decided together that we want to make our marriage work. You may not believe this or care, but we do love each other very much. Your presence in our lives has done damage, but it hasn’t been fatal to our relationship.

WH has promised me that he will cut off contact with you and that he is committed to recovering our marriage. He also tells me that he has asked you not to contact him again. I believe him. I am a woman who values my husband and my marriage and will do anything possible to keep my family intact.

From here forward any contact from you will be unwanted and unacceptable. Please heed our wishes and allow us move forward with our marriage without you as a hindrance to our recovery.

Sincerely,

Catperson,
You are so right about the manipulation tactics..

KLD,
It is tough to go through this, and sometimes its hard to believe that someone so close to you and someone who is supposed to love and protect you can really decieve you in such a terrible way...just take care not to fall into the trap of what's referred to as the BS (betrayed spouse) fog..You can't trust him at all right now. He doesn't have your best interest because he is in contact with OW..his actions are not matching his words..you can only fight this by understanding that he is a WH now.. There is stil CONTACT between them, and as long as that is going on, there is no shot at real recovery...that is why it's important for you to fight this..you are fighting to save your marriage. It's hard and it's even harder to really believe a WS can be so cruel, mean and even manipulative, but they are..the only way that can change is by ending the affair..I would suggest that you don't soften your position with him, don't allow him to negotiate when he will be giving you the things you have asked for: (the passwords, the NC letter,)
He will use that against you to continue contact..If he's dragging his feet about giving you what you ask for, getting you to agree to wait a few more days, it's nothing more than buying more time to prepare the OW for what's coming...

I am sorry you are going through this, you are in all of our prayers.

I think I was posting at the same time as you before so, I think others will chime in, but the NC letter should be written by your WH..you should read and approve of it before sending, but HE should write it. OW should know it's coming straight from HIM and that he no longer wants to be involved with her at all for the rest of his life because he is working on his marriage with YOU.

edited for spelling

Maybe in KLD's case it would be better for this NC letter to come from her? Because it seems to me that her husband is already going behind her back; he may have already forewarned OW that his wife may force him to write a letter -- and may have instructed her to disregard it.

With this letter, OW will get a taste of the lies WH is telling his wife. She will see they contradict the lies he is telling her.

It would be good if WH added his name and added a "P.S. I have read this letter and am in complete agreement. Even if I have contacted you in between, do not misinterpret what is being said here. I stand by every word above my wife has stated above. Whatever I said in between was when I was in a state of conflict. I now realize that I want to be on the path of a full recovery with my true and legal wife. You are not a part of our marriage and will impede our recovery."

Or something to that effect. The final wording would have to be agreed upon by KLD and WH of course. Repetition of the words, "my wife," will reinforce the message that he is married and plans to stay that way. It will properly distance the OW and make her aware that she isn't, never has been -- and will never be his wife.

KLD, I think you are doing a great job.

He has said he will send a NC letter and that he will write it tonight. Last night was a very emotional and not normal night at our house. I'm not making excuses and I did ask him to do it last night, but he didn't. He said he will do it today.

At this point, I wonder if it's even effective knowing that they've had contact all week long. Even though I couldn't see the records, I asked if he had communicated with her yesterday and he said he did. I asked him at that point to not reply the next time he gets something from her and to not initiate anything on his own.

I actually want this woman to see that she has stepped into a buzz saw with me. My M may end in D, but it won't be because I was easy or a push over.

good for you!

Maybe in KLD's case it would be better for this NC letter to come from her?

NO! Stick with the MB principles.

Valentine,
Either way he can lie and say he didn't want to do it, even if KLD writes it..there is no way to prevent him from saying that his wife made him do it if he is intent on saying that....I do think that it's an important step for WH to write it because it will show KLD that he is willing to write this letter on his own to end contact...if she writes it, he never even has to commit to the first step which is ending contact with the OP..the Harley's suggest that the WH write the letter and I would stick with that....if KLD wants to send a separate email informing the OW that she is not giving up on her marriage, she loves her H, and is going to fight to save her marriage..maybe that would be an option.

It looks to me like SHE is writing an exposure letter - telling OW that She (KLD) knows about the A.

Her H needs to write the NC letter, telling OW the A was a mistake, and that he wants NC forever. KLD needs to see and approve the NC letter her H writes.

Yes, sometimes the WS tells OP in advance that the NC letter is "something my spouse made me do, but I'll continue to contact you behind their back."

However, the writing of the NC letter can be an indicator in and of it's self. If the WS is reluctant to write, drags their feet, and doesn't want to word the letter in the most effective manner, it is very telling.

SS

rw, it was my impression that he was going to be sending a separate NC letter. But I thought he would have already told the OW to disregard it. I just saw an added P.S. as a way to give the OW a taste of what he is telling his wife... for real... rather than the lies he is no doubt telling, (i.e., he could be saying, I'm telling her I want a divorce, but she's demanding I send this letter, it's just a delay, etc., etc.)

The intent of my letter is to let OW know that I'm going to fight for my M and she will not win. It is in no way meant to take the place of his NC letter.

Thanks for clarifying that KLD!
Initially, I thought you were writing the NC letter.

Given it's only been five days since confrontation, a lot of progress has been made. Thanks for the update KLD. I think that was unclear, whether your letter was completely replacing his. Now it's clear that's not the case.

If this letter sounds too much like a NC letter, I need to change it. I don't mean for it to take the place of his letter in any way. I really want to expose to her that I know, that she hasn't caused harm that can't be repaired, and that she's out.

I think your letter is fine. Just don't count on it having too much impact with the OW.