So where does this leave all the MB-certified stuff that he hasn't done yet? Did you get to tell her that he has failed to do any of it? I would email her or something, to get an answer, so you don't have to wait another week without any kind of work from him. Grrr!

KLD, the longer you go, allowing him NOT to have to do anything to satisfy you, the less of a leg you have to stand on. This is no different than whoever said not to sleep with a WS because that signifies your accepting and forgiving them, in a court (some states).

Has he actually done anything other than what you got the first couple days?

Hi KLD
I've been reading your thread as our stories are similar. I stopped posting onto my thread when I started working with Jennifer as I didn't think it made sense to get two different sets of advice.

A serial adulterer has to go through so much more change than a normal wayward. We have been working for almost three months and progress has been incredibly slow.

Jennifer told me that I would know if he is still cheating or a sex addict because they just pretend to make the changes, they don't really care as the BS is not the most important thing in their life.

The bottom line is that we can't read his mind, and we don't know what he will do yet.

One of the things I have noticed, is that those of us who are on the forums here, and have read Dr Harley's materials have high expectations. He hasn't read the materials, and is not a convert yet. He really does have a lot to think about. He may be finally deciding to work on the marriage, or not work on it.

Jenifer knows what she is doing, and I think we ought to let her advise KLD and H for a while, and see where they go with it.

Remember that her WH has different thought processes than KLD does. She has decisions to make, based on what he does, but he is struggling with his own decisions. These addictions are real, even if they are self inflicted. Just because someone is foolish to start smoking, doesn't mean it is easy to quit. Many times A's are the same way.

KLD is not giving up her choices by giving him a few weeks to get his act together.

The link Pep gave about secrets, and privacy is very good material. I don't think it would work to print it out, and try to get him to read it, but It would be good to read it over two or three times so you can reference the concepts when you talk to him. What does one need to keep secret from a spouse really?
There are some valid secrets, but not many.
My father worked for the government, and he had high security clearances. He couldn't talk about some things that he knew. There are clergy persons who can't discuss some of the things they are told in confidence. Most of the things that are secret fall under the guise of things that should not be done in the first place, not things that are valid secrets.
If he can grasp this concept, and understand the error in his thinking, it will get him a long way down the road to recovery.

Sometimes we get talking about things, and we assume others have read the same materials that we have read. I am wondering If you (K) have seen the rules for recovery, and successful marriage? (Link Below)

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3901_rules.html

The privacy/Secrecy thing comes under three of the four rules, and really, it touches the rule of time also. When one is doing secret things, they are taking time away from their spouse, and giving it to other things. I recommend you read the four rules also (before you have another talk with him) ...... if you have time to do it.

Remember that recovery is a process, not an event. If it works, it will be a 2 to 5 year time span, not a 2 week thing.

I want to say that Dr Harley knows what he is talking about, and you can trust these materials to lead you to a better marriage. This, from personal experience.

Lets see how he does. I am still waiting for him to reveal his heart.

He hasn't shown a whole lot of anger and he hasn't been resentful of what I've done to catch him. He's answered questions I've had, but he's not been proactive at all about talking about where we are or anything like that. This is actually typical of him in any situation where he wants it to blow over, though. He does that with everybody.

If he does things this way with everyone, then this is not specific to the A. HE is going to have to change a basic part of his coping skills, and most people resist this, even when they KNOW it will be better in the long run. It is good to approach these things with love, not anger. He will need all the help he can get.

K, Prayer is a powerful tool. I hope both of you are using it. Even though God knows what we need before we ask, there are some things he holds back until we ask in faith.

You can afford to be patient with him for a while. Your choices are still there. Do protect yourself, do be careful. Do take care of yourself.


Don't loan him large sums of money in the near future. ;-)

SS

[color:"red"] EGG ZAK LEE [/color]

what I was thankin' dude!

KLD,

I have the same question as Robertswife. Are you SURE she told him he did not have to write a NC letter? I can certainly understand that counseling is done on a case by case basis but this just does NOT make sense when you read the Harley's material.

My understanding is that YOU are supposed to approve the letter. At the very least I think YOU would have needed to see the TM or HEAR the phone call. How can you possibly TRUST if there is no way to VERIFY??? And is Jennifer REALLY just taking his word for it when YOU can't even tell her that you saw it actually done? Since I have never spoken with the Harleys I can't say that they would NOT do it this way. It just sounds odd and scares me a little.

Are you sure he is telling you the truth?

Praying,
WH2LE

Hi,
I am going through the same thing as you. I have been reading your story because it is almost exactly the same as mine. No one can read your husband's mind but his actions say he is not really committed yet. I think that is why others are telling you that you have to hold his feet to the fire. One thing I have learned about my Husband through all of his infidelities is that the more I am forgiving the more he takes advantage of me. I have called to make an appointment with Jennifer and given background on my marriage. My husband has cheated and was caught having affairs with 2 OWs in a matter of 2 years. I was directed here by a good friend that counseled with the Harley's as well. I have been so frustrated because nothing has worked for me. I thought forgiving him and being understanding would help but it just seems to enable them to keep going with their lies and secrets.

I can tell you that even though its an addiction, and mine is a serial cheater too, without consequences there is no incentive to change. A sick person shouldn't be making decisions for you and attempting to lead your recovery by taking their sweet time deciding. Mine is very manipulative and uses my sympathy toward him against me. I have figured out that tough love is the only way we will survive this. Maybe you should read "Love must be tough". It really changed my thinking. If I continue to let him take his sweet time and decide to make a real effort to save our marriage, he will stay on the fence forever. I am afraid its just a way of life for serial cheaters, like others here have said.

It was hard for me to finally realize I am not in recovery just because he is at home. If he hasn't ended contact with OW's, its not recovery. Don't let him fool you the way mine fooled me and continues to try to pull the wool over my eyes. Nothing can get better until he ends the affair. That is where I am now. Even though I will be in counseling with Jennifer, I am not putting up with anymore from mine. I have to be the one to stand up for and ask what I need, I am not willing to be hurt and fooled anymore.

Wish me luck and I will wish you luck too. This is not a happy place to be at all. Thanks for listening, and hopefully you got something out of my rambling.

Forgavehim - I do wish you much luck in the decisions you need to make. I hope Jennifer will be able to help you develop a plan that will work for you.

She has helped me quite alot and I know she will do her best to help you get through to the place you want to be.

I know you all are concerned about the NC letter. I am a little skeptical about that, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on this for the moment.

I did hear him tell her the details of his last week of contact with her, so I know it was discussed. I don't know what Jennifer actually said, though. I think it will come out next week if she told him to do it and he lied about it. We are supposed to be on together for the call next week.

I'm trying to take a steady and methodical approach to getting into recovery. I realize that everything doesn't happen at once. I actually do know my WH and his personality very well. He is one who does not think well on his feet and he doesn't respond quickly to something that he feels is important and if that something is an issue that makes him uncomfortable.

He is very worried about saying the wrong thing to me and has been for several years now. I am partially to blame for this because I have fussed at him or said things to make him feel bad when he expressed his opinions to me in the past. I am well aware that this is a big weakness I have and it's one I've been working on for years to improve. Also, it's another reason I've tried to remain as level headed and calm about all this as I could.

Now, that being said it doesn't mean that I'm not holding him accountable. I do realize I need to get more proactive and hopefully I can work that into my plan going forward.

WH will need to work on how he communicates. It's a big weakness for him and he knows it. He also needs to get to a trusting point with me just like I do with him. Obviously, attention to my trust level is of more importance at this time, but he can't be ignored.

Well we are working with Jennifer and she never suggested a NC letter. I think the concept is that you work on making the M a better place to be. If the WS is not really interested in recovery, it becomes pretty obvious because he or she will not make any changes.

My guess is that Jennifer will see through a false recovery quite quickly but I could be wrong as my WH is still rewriting marital history.

An event occurred today that I hope doesn't turn out to be a big roadblock to our recovery. My company had another round of layoffs and I was one of the casualties. So, as of today, I'm no longer employed.

I have a decent severence package and outplacement services, but this timing couldn't be worse. At least WH is doing well in his new job and that will probably work out for him. He is making actually a little better salary than his last "real" job, so that is good. I just don't know how we'll work together on getting me re-settled. When he lost his job, things went to pot in a hurry. He wouldn't work with me and got even more independent.

When I called to give him the news, he cancelled his plans with his new boss and came home. I told him he didn't have to do it, but he said he knows he hasn't been there for me when I've needed him and he's trying to change his priorities. I have to admit that he didn't really help any by being here with me (no really great suggestions, etc.) but it was nice to know he came home to be with me.

Funny thing is that the PI was lined up and I had to call her and tell her he was definitely not seeing OW that night because he was coming home. By the time I got to her, she had seen him greet a new arrival - a man who appeared to be in a rental car. This would be the boss. So he probably was having a business dinner planned instead of a romp with OW.

So, now on my plate is finding another job and fixing my M. I told my WH tonight that I can do two things at once - he kind of laughed and said he couldn't because he is a man. I'm hopeful that I can find a comparable position - Atlanta still has jobs so at least I'm in a decent place for a job hunt.

"When I called to give him the news, he cancelled his plans with his new boss and came home. I told him he didn't have to do it, but he said he knows he hasn't been there for me when I've needed him and he's trying to change his priorities."

Wow, I hope you gave him LOTS of admiration for at least being there for you. That is a concrete ACTION, and is one thing that many WS's don't get!

Now get busy putting out resumes and knocking on doors, or whatever you have to do. Don't wait until your money runs out. You were looking for a job when you got this one, and I'm sure you will do just fine.

I did cover him with admiration for what he did. I do appreciate it and especially that he related this as an opportunity to show me the support he owes me and has withdrawn for so long. I gave him my big thanks for that, too.

KLD, I am sorry about your job loss, but very happy that your H came home to support you! I think men need to be needed so this will be a great time to show him how important he is to you. I am a FIERCELY independent woman [trying to reform!] and it has taken me a long time to show my H how much I NEED him. It is just amazing how that has effected our marriage in a positive way. He feels appreciated and I feel PROTECTED. What a weird, strange thing for me! It has added PASSION to our marriage.

How are things? Do you have hopes for a job? Are you in a good market? Can you move, if not? I was thinking this might be a sign...

Has H done any of his steps yet?

Just worried about you.

I am sorry to read of your lay-off. Even though it is a negative thing in many ways, at least now you will be home more to focus on your recovery without as much distraction. Of course, job-hunting takes plenty of time, but still you will be home more and available to focus on your recovery.

Hi KLD!

Thinking about you. I am so sorry about your job. Do you have the kind of skills that might help you start your own business? Something that maybe your H could work in also?

I have been self-employed several times due to life changes and feel strongly that it is a viable option that most people don't consider.

I hope that things are going well with your H and that we haven't heard from you only because of your job loss.

Praying,
WH2LE

hi kld,

i too am so sorry about your job loss. this is such an added burden for you. please take care of yourself. remember to eat and get your rest.

you are in my thoughts. i wish there was more i could do for you.

hugs to you sweetie ...

How is it going? Did the OW's mother ever respond? Hope you are doing all right. Wishing you everything good.

VS

KLD,

I was reading through your story, my heart goes out to you! I want you to know I said a prayer for you tonight! I see it's been about a week since your last post.

With all you are dealing with and the added issue of your job - has to be difficult. Know that you are thought of, I can see that there are others here as well who are letting you know you're in their thoughts too!

You seem, from what you've written here, that you are a person who has solid inner strength, we all doubt ourselves from time to time - I'm so proud of what you have accomplished to date. It is a process and it will take time

Hi everyone - I've been focusing on getting things going with my job search. I've already had some hits and an interview set up for next week. I have some loose ends to tie up with my old job and insurance, etc. These things take up time!

One goal while I'm off work is to get some of the big cleaning things done around the house that I've kind of let go. Spring cleaning sort of things...

Things with WH are a little better. We had our second session with Jennifer last night and I got a pep talk about plan A. He got another pep talk about H&O and follow through on promises. He told me earlier this week that he is on the fence about continuing counseling, but after last night's session he said he wants to continue.

He followed through with giving me access to his phone records. He shut down his old email account and is only using one that I have access to (unless he's opened a secret one). He vows he hasn't talked to her or seen her - though we all know that his word about that means zip. He shut his other number off and is only using his work phone (that I have access to the records). He may have gotten another phone that I don't know about, but there are no indications of that right now.

He seems to be really trying to work through things. He's accounting for his time and I hear from him several times during the day now.

One of the things he said last night is that he is trying to find a way to tell me some of the things that happened with the OW and fill in some of the gaps of details I don't have. He said this is very hard for him, but he wants to tell me the things I want to know. He's given me some info, but hasn't shared many details. He also has said he believes he was addicted to the affair situation, but not to her.

I'm having trouble with LBs and am working to find ways to tell him what I think without an AO or DJ. Since he seems more on board these days, I think it's important for me to try to control the LBs as much as possible.

Jennifer suggested that I try to not dwell on what happened with him because he does know what he's done. When I talked to him about this, he said he doesn't mind talking about it if we are at home and if I don't lose my temper.

So, thanks for all your kind words and support. I'm still here, just needed a few days to get refocused and reorganized.