I have not done a Plan B. I realize it may come to that. I don't want to have to go there. I don't know how I'd be able to implement since I don't have an income right now.

Can you tell him that you want to go to a lawyer and write up a support contract? He should be willing to do whatever you want at this point, so it wouldn't seem unreasonable for you to expect him to guarantee to support the family.

Are you exercising? You may need to ramp that up, to get your energy back up to be searching for work. btw, what do you do? Is it the type of work you can do online, like through guru.com?

Thanks for the exercising reminder, Cat. I don't exercise much at all - never have. I'm in terrible shape even though I'm not overweight!!! I keep saying I'm going to get on a program, but I haven't done it yet.

I do supply chain work. My last position was strategic sourcing manager and I've done all kinds of purchasing, inventory management, forecasting, manufacturing planning, etc. I've never heard of guru.com. I'll have to look it up and see what it is.

I have a possibility for a consulting position that I'm just waiting to hear if they have a project that my skills fit for. If that works out, I'll be happy about that. The company has enough work in Atlanta that I wouldn't have to travel to stay busy. I wouldn't consider a consulting job where I'd have to be gone all the time.

I have an appointment with the outsourcing counselor today. I'm having trouble staying motivated to do my job search since last week's M issues. I'm trying to pull myself out of this funk but it's a difficult process for me right now. I have good times and bad times. I regret what I do in the bad times and feel like I set myself back so far when I let my emotions take over. I do realize that I can't go back and change the past, so I try to focus on moving in the right direction. That, too, turns into a chore sometimes!!!

Oh KLD!!!!!!

I am trying not to cry for you right now because I am at work. I am SO sorry about these events.

Keep doing what you are doing. Take your lawyer's advice. Plan B might work. When his A is FORCED into the light and he can no longer tell the OW that he has to go home to you, and he can no longer get his fix and run back to you, and he no longer has the FUN of living a secret second life, the fog MIGHT clear.

His saying that he wants out of the marriage are fog words. If he wanted out, he would BE out. Instead, he is still eating cake. He wants 2 women. He is STILL thinking he is soooooo much smarter than you. Gag.

You are not being deceitful, you are being smart. The ONLY hope your marriage has is for you to know what is going on and you DO!!!!!

Plan B may help protect your feelings. Please consider it KLD.

Praying,
WH2LE

Thanks so much, WH2LE. It helps to know that you and many others here care.

I'm bouncing back and forth about whether I want to even try to recover this M - whether he will ever be trustworthy again. I also don't have the money to keep on hiring a PI to see where he's going. I don't have a way to find out how he's talking to her now because since I confronted him the first time he got rid of all his old emails and phones. I have access to the new ones, but he probably got a throw away phone or calls her from his work phone. He can easily make it look like he isn't contacting her.

I'm afraid that the only way I can find out for sure how deep it goes now is to file for D and subpeona bank and credit card records and his computer. I think Plan B would enable the A. When do you know that it's just not going to work? I've thought before that if he tells me again he wants a D I won't argue and just let this M go. I've actually been able to say that to him, but then I can't (or don't) follow through.

KLD,



Unfortunately, we know where he is going. You have a leopard here with his unchanging spots.

He is ripping the heart from you time after time and you spiral down to the depths again and again. AND HE DOES NOT GIVE A ______ ABOUT IT!! OR YOU!!

All he is concerned about is his selfish, self-centered self gratification and the HECK with you.

So why the bouncing? Don't you deserve so much more??

IMHO

kirk

KLD,

You probably don't need any more evidence from a PI so that is an expense you don't need to put out money for. You have all the proof you need, along with his behavior, that there is an ongoing affair.

Plan B may or may not enable the A. The simple truth is that MOST affairs die no matter what. They die more quickly when exposed to the light of day. Affairs thrive in the darkness. There is a reason that Satan is called the Prince of Darkness.

Plan B will more likely protect YOU. Your feelings. Read up on it. I think that when your WH is no longer allowed ANY direct contact with YOU that he will no longer find his double life so wonderful.

You are WAY too hard on yourself. STOP worrying about containing your emotions or being so completely with it. Your life has been in turmoil for several years now. Given all that, you are doing FABULOUSLY well. I personally think you are amazing. Please, please, please be easy on yourself. I have no question that you will find a great job soon. Concentrate on you and leave your WH in the very capable hands of God.

And I know it may not sound very MB but STOP worrying about his feelings and how he will react to YOUR feelings. He deserves everything you give him.

Whne he lies to you again(and I would assume that every word out of his mouth IS a lie) just tell him matter-of-factly that you know he is lying and that you aren't interested in anything but the truth. Period. Don't tell him anymore that his behavior is suspicious. Just tell him he IS lying and DO NOT TELL HIM HOW YOU KNOW. Don't try to get him to tell you the truth. Just don't let him lie.

Check here often.

Praying,
WH2LE

KLD,

Just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you. I know that you can't feel much worse than you do right now.

Remember that if you go into a Plan B, it doesn't mean you have to get a divorce or even file immediately. It will give you time to think. It will give you time to see if your WH is going to wise up. Most of all, it will protect your feelings from the constant onslaught you are experiencing now.

You don't need to hurry a D, even if you are SURE it's the only way. A Plan B can you give you some time to take care of yourself. And you may be able to file a LSA that will insure that you are not left without some support while you are looking for work.

Have you talked to Jennifer?

(((((((((KLD)))))))))

Praying,
WH2LE

Thanks for reminding me that I don't have to be in a hurry about getting to a D. It helps to be reminded that I don't have to have a quick resolution to end up happy.

WH says he wants to talk this weekend when we have time. I've told him I must have honesty to be able to go forward and we have to work on a plan for him to be accountable. He agreed. I know his agreement to my requests probably are bunk. He now says he doesn't want a D. I imagine he got a fix from the OW and now can face going forward for a few weeks with the M.

I've decided I'm going to let him to most of the talking when we talk this weekend. He knows how I feel - I've been very clear about all that. I need to listen, ask questions to clarify, and make it clear that I won't take less than the truth.

My question now is what is my best strategy to get honesty about his latest contact with OW? He has denied it more than once, why would he tell the truth now? My lawyer has advised that I need to keep the details of what I know to myself. So how do I handle this one for us to move forward?

I didn't get to talk to Jennifer this week. I had to cancel because I needed to pick my niece up tonight for my B and SIL. I'm going to reschedule, but haven't done it yet.

KLD,
I am sorry that things aren't as good as they could be right now, but you have shown a lot of stregnth and should be proud of yourself for holding up as well as you have.

I don't think your WH has any intention of being honest about seeing the OW and the continued contact. In these situations, I am not sure there is anything you can do to make him come clean. Think about it, you had a PI follow him for the longest and he never had any intention of letting you know about the OW, I think you are just repeating what happened before you confronted him with the information that you knew he was having an A. He thinks he has you in the dark again, he'd really like to keep both of you. He's cake-eating big time. I am sorry, but I don't think He has any intention of getting rid of that OW or getting a D. He wants the best of both worlds. If you don't do something to stop this (like Plan B) I don't think he's going to "get it". I am really sorry for your pain, please consider taking yourself out of the "triangle" and I can almost guarantee you will see what your Wh is really made of. It won't be nearly as much fun for him without you in that triangle with them...I would just caution against expecting him to come clean.

You gave him a chance to get on board, and he saw your pain, and still continues contact with OW. Yes, it is addictive to him, but it still takes an effort on his part to break that addiction by taking the precautions necessary to end the affair and to affair-proof your M. He's nowhere near that. It may take a total separation from him for him to see that he can't have his cake and eat it too. I am not saying that you need to decide to take drastic action today, but you may want to start considering what you would be willing to do to (as in enforcing boundaries).

I know you are struggling right now with your job search, but do you have any family or friends you can lean on for support if you decide to go to Plan B?

KLD,

I have to tell you that I agree 100% with Robertswife. Your WH is NOT going to come clean with you. Think about this. In the past you have been very accomodating of his supposed "need" to think things through before he speaks with you. What a bunch of balogna!!!!! ALL he is doing is stalling, coming up with more stories, figuring out the best way he can continue with HIS life, HIS plans, HIS cake-eating ways. You can tell him all you want that you are not going to accept anything but honesty. HE DOESN'T CARE!!!! His whole goal is to keep doing what he's doing. Period.

YOU need to CHANGE what you are doing. He is taking advantage of you in the WORST way a husband can. HE KNOWS where you are "weak"(for lack of a better term) and he is PLAYING you. He is USING your love for him. USING IT!!!!!!!!

Unless he SEES, by your actions and NOT your words, that HE WILL LOSE YOU, there is no real chance that he is going to become a decent, respectful guy and give you the truth, let alone give up the OW.

Forgive my french, but I say the h*** with YOU listening to him. YOU talk, YOU tell him that you are not listening to lies and everytime he lies say, "That's a lie." KLD, you know that everything he has said up to now is a lie. It's not hard to know when he's lying. As I said before, assume that EVERY word out of his mouth is a lie. He needs to SHOW you truth, NOW, not after he "thinks" it through, not after he has had time to "sort out" his thoughts. NOW!!!!!!!!!

There is no question that these kinds of boundaries are the hardest to enforce, because there is so much at stake. But you CAN do this. You ARE strong. But KLD, I truly believe that if you do NOT take a really hard line, almost b****y approach that he will continue to stomp all over you, and you deserve better. You are NEVER going to be able to appeal to his decency. If he was once a decent man, he no longer is. He is LOST in the fog.

Praying,
WH2LE

I so agree! Why is it that BSs become the weak person, and give the WS all the power? It should be the other way around. Like I kept trying to say to wonderin, you have to stay MAD, or he will use your weakness, your compassion, against you! Every time he says anything you know is a lie, just say 'Lie!' Let him wonder how you know, but he WILL know that you know, because you'll be calling him on his lies with great accuracy. You don't have to tell him how you know, just THAT you know. And that you deserve better.

I've always told D17 that when women become mothers, they develop a sixth sense, the ability to know when their children lie. She still somewhat believes that, though she wouldn't admit it, LOL. But it has given me a lot of leverage over the years, that mysteriousness. Use yours to get what you need. Make him wonder how you know so much, let him think he's not as smart as he thinks he is.

Then tell him to move out. Call it tough love, call it Plan B, you have to do it because he's a perpetual liar. Nothing else will make him want you back bad enough to change. And you sure as hell don't deserve to live with him while he lies to your face.

Call United Way (unitedway.org) and tell them what's happening, and ask them to get you in touch with the help you need.

KLD,

I am guessing that you are a little like me and are afraid that if he he tells you the truth and you tell him he's lying that you will feel guilty. Or that you are afraid to "pretend " that you know more than you do.

STOP WORRYING!!!!!! The worst that's gonna happen is that months down the road, IF you find out you wrongly accused him of something, you can apologize.

He deserves every bit of your mistrust and your accusations. Go for it. It WILL NOT BE WORSE THAN IT IS NOW!!!!!!!

We are here for you. I promise!!

Praying(really),
WH2LE

I have told him I think he's lying about continued contact. I have told him his patterns have been the same as before and that I don't trust him because of his past lying. In counseling with Jennifer, she said that telling him I don't trust him was a big LB. I needed to instead tell him how important it was to hear the truth and behave appropriately when the truth came.

My problem there is that I don't think it gets through to him that I know he's lying. I don't want to LB because I do believe that Plan A done the best I can is helpful. I do think I need to get through to him, though. I have actually expressed this to him - that I'm not "allowed" to tell him really how I feel and what my perception is because I must be always on my best behavior and not make him feel bad. He didn't have much of a response when I said this to him except he understood the difficulty.

I asked Jennifer in one of my sessions where H&O stops and LBs start? She didn't have a clear answer for this. Just that I must be respectful to him when I'm sharing how I feel. This was in relation to my telling him I didn't trust him yet.

KLD,

I have to be honest and tell you that I am at a loss here. I would not want to disagree with Jennifer.

I know that in my case and it appears in several others here, that telling a WH or even a FWH that you don't trust them may appear as an LB, but I consider it O&H. I DO NOT trust my FWH. He has done very little to earn back my trust and I am not going to give him the impression that I do. MY FWH believes that if I don't say I don't trust him then I DO trust him. He needs to KNOW in no uncertain terms that I do NOT trust him and that I EXPECT him to earn it back.

I have talked about this to my FWH and he tells me clearly that until I PUSHED< PUSHED< PUSHED him he would NEVER have told the truth. I caught him in another lie last week(not A related in any way but trust-crushing nevertheless), and he said the same thing. He would NEVER have told me the truth. I actually told him(before he admitted the lie) that I saw the same patterns of behavior that I saw when he was having the A. He did not CARE. All he cared about was preserving the lie and continuing to do what he was doing. he thought he was such a skilled liar that eventually I would stop.

My H has serious control issues. This is abuse. MB principles make no sense to the Controlling Person. They twist and use the MB concepts against you. I strongly suspect your WH is the same way. We are taking a different approach for the time being and I have the hope that eventually he will see the freedom that MB principles bring to a marriage.

KLD, please consider this possibility. Plan A is wonderful but Dr. Harley even says that you can Plan A so long that you lose your love for the WH. You become a doormat whether you meant to or not.

Either way, we are all here for you. Part of the problem with forums and e-mails and anonymity is that we can't see each other's faces or hear tone of voice. If you could see me now, I would be hugging you and you would hear in my voice how warmly I feel towards you and you would see in my eyes the admiration I have for your tremendous patience and perseverance.

Praying,
WH2LE

You're right about the fact that a message board doesn't let us see each other or hear tones of voice. It also limits the details we can share - it's easier to tell the details than type them. So much easier to express yourself in a conversation than on a message board.

I think this also allows for a misunderstanding of situations sometimes. I realize that I've painted my WH as a real jerk - and many times that's exactly what he is. He wasn't always this way, though. He's only turned this way since the A. He's always been quiet and hasn't easily shared his feelings, but never the jerk he is when the A is in control.

I have to say that I do think my WH is similar to yours in that he doesn't get it unless I say it. I can't beat around the bush with him at all. And if he's in a defensive mood when we talk, he twists everything around to make him a sad victim who had no choice but to have an A. Thank goodness this isn't that often, but it does happen some.

I'm so sorry your H is still telling lies. I know what you mean about the whole picture. I'd be on edge about the lies even if it wasn't A related. My WH told another lie about 2 weeks ago that I caught. It wasn't at all related to the A, either, just gave me another indicator that he's not trustworthy (like I needed one....!!!)

My brother is really starting to press me to D - he at least sounds less supportive when I talk about recovery. I think he is seeing things much more clearly than I am, but I'm not ready to do this yet. I know it will likely come to that, but I don't feel ready to make that decision yet. I also need to become stable financially again on my own by getting a job. I've always been financially independent and feel a need to be secure in this way to move forward with D.

KLD,

Are you still considering or planning for plan B? I really do hate to say this but the only person who is uncomfortable with the status guo is you. IMHO, unless you change something, your WH isn't going to change anything.

It isn't fair, no way, but as I see it, the ball is in your court to give him some incentive to change.

I am so sorry it has come to this.

Who

There are indicators that a person is going to do what is right, or that they want to do what is right, but are just weak.

Honesty is one of the indicators.

Remorse is one of the indicators.

A calculating person who doesn't intend to change is not honest, and they are not sorry. They sometimes say they are sorry, and "act" sorry, but their other actions give them away.

You still get to choose what you are going to do. I understand the legal advice you are getting, but it is not the best thing for recovering your marriage. For the marriage to recover there has to be openness and honesty. Every time he has contact, and there is no exposure, it is more and more likely that he will deny, and that contact will continue.

I agree with other posters that it doesn't look like he will ever come clean on his own. Of course, you know there is continued communication between them too - he had to set it up somehow.

I am sorry about your employment. I know it is difficult emotionally.......... and that is an understatement. To have both of these at once makes it so much worse.

Remember that Jenifer does this every week. She is good at it. Tell her your concerns and how you are feeling about what is happening. She can help you understand why she recommends what she does.

I pray you find the job that will help you the most, and be the best fit. I hope you are telling God your feelings about all this also. Prayer is supposed to be a two way communication......... may God let you know that he is listening, and helping.

You "sound" well considering. I hope you are doing as well as you sound. You project the image of someone who has suffered set backs, but who still believes they can make it work. I believe you can, and I hope this is the real you I am feeling when I read your posts.

One of the most difficult things we go through when someone we love betrays us, it wondering what might be wrong with us, that they could do what they do. While we all have faults and weaknesses, we need to realize that it's not our fault, and we can't spend time feeling guilty, or doubting our selves. (Mostly)

One of Kipling's poems might apply here. I hope you don't mind if I quote it for you. It seems to cover so much of what you are coping with.

[IF]

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

--Rudyard Kipling


All the best.
SS

I am considering a Plan B, though I'm a little uncomfortable with that since I don't have a job. We don't have kids and WH has never supported me financially - I've always worked since we've met except for the last month. I realize that for many, this fact doesn't matter, but it does to me.

I agree that something needs to change and I'm the one who will have to initiate that. I sometimes feel that my Plan A was somewhat weak - at least if you were to ask my WH about it. I think he views many of my questions about his behavior and activities as LBs. That's his desire to continue his lies and A. I have often gotten upset and emotional, though I do try to contol it things spill over. When this happens, it's not a tantrum or a fit or a breakdown. It's normally me just crying and telling him how hurt I am. I have had 2 "breakdowns" over his A where I kind of lost control. He says he understands that I'm emotional, but if he told the truth I'm sure he would say that he'd prefer it if I didn't cry.

Thanks for the reminder that I have to take action. I feel like I've taken a step (or 6) backwards and my resolve is crumbling. I don't really know why.

I feel like I've taken a step (or 6) backwards and my resolve is crumbling. I don't really know why.

Because you are under some of the worst emotional stress that a person can be under, and still live. It's real. You know it is, and it takes a huge toll on anyone who endures it.

We can recommend, and we can encourage, but we can't make your decisions for you, nor act on them once made. If you want a week to think, that's OK. This won't go anywhere.

I do recommend talking to Jenifer again, but I know finances are not the best right now. What do you think?

SS