hI FH. thanks a lot for ur answer a few days ago. could u please help me with a plan b?. im lost

Your answer last time was of great help to me, thanks again for ur time.
I told him i would like to do a trial separation. He got mad at the beggining but then said ok, if that was what i wanted he would leave the house and some place else because i was a great mother and deserved to be happy.
last night i text him: how many nigth stand's did u have?
he answer: i met O. and S. 2 yrs ago and then i was messing in Sept again, because after our bad summer i lots hope.
then i texted this morning: that not what i asked, i said how many of these women did u sleep with?
He answer that with none that they were only friendships, that he wasnt looking for sex but companionship.
then he forwarded to me a mess he sent to the 20 yr.old lituanian girl saying: A. please meet with me and my wife to clarify this mess, my M is at stake.
i didnt answer him yet
But i called this girl last night and she is gone back to her country. her friend picked up the phone and she gave me her home number in Lituania. I rang and answer mach. went on.
I wanted to talk to her because my H says it was a joke ab. this girl, she was ringing him and they arranged one day to meet in Dublin and because she didnt show up he was so angry.Then he was trying to get back at her by joking about meeting in Spain. He is with different male colleges from work in a hotel and would have never deared bringing a 20 yr old to the hotel with him.
I believe little of his stories.
But what do u thing of my plan of T. Separation and doing councelling?.
I also wanted to send him the Joseph's letter and the meaning of Gaslighting. I m trying to copy it but when i go to my mail to send it to him, it doesnt let me paste it/
I just want a confession from him wether we stay together or not, i would like to know the truth

Hello Misssad - As I said previously, if YOU think you want a separation that is your decision. If you are asking for my opinion, however, then I need to tell you that it is more difficult to work on recovering a marriage when you are separated.

If you want to forward him something, copy it to your browser and then paste to a word processing program on your computer such as Word or some equivalent. Then you should be able to copy and paste it from there into an email message if you can't paste it directly from the site.

Your wanting a confession and to know the truth is understandable and reasonable. Just don't expect them "right away." What YOU want has not been "Foremost" on his mind for a long time.

In the meantime, while you are waiting on that, you should also do some "self searching" to see what behaviors you have been "guilty" of that may have contributed to a marital atmosphere that led him to believe he needed to get certain needs met outside of the marriage.

When I read through your initial postings the one thing that came through loud and clear to me is that you had a tendency to "force" him to "do what you wanted." That went all the way back to WHY he agreed to marry you.

So one area you might want to look at are your "Demands" that you project on him and to what extent he "just went along with you" rather than doing so because of "enthusiastic agreement" as a result of discussing things from the perspective of a Policy of Joint Agreement.

All the confessing in world will not solve the problem if the two of you don't begin to address the underlying "problems and issues" in your marriage and if you don't both look at your own behaviors to see what is "Selfish" oriented and what is "Servant of the other" oriented.

I cannot tell from what you have written so far in any of your threads if God plays a part in your lives, but if He does, the question would be to both of you, "are your actions bringing honor and glory to God or are they 'self-oriented'?"

thanks FH, but after reading ur post i feel more confused than before...It seems ur telling me i should try recovery, try to save my M, i though my M is well death...
My Q is do u think i should try recovery? or that my case look lost to u?.
I just rang other number he was talking while in Spain for 8 minutes on the 8th of Dec, another prostitute. she goes to the hotels and charges 10 euros/hr. Im devastated, i cannot believe this is happening to me.
\Should i not try plan b?

You may be misundertanding, Misssad.

Whether or not you try to recover your marriage is up to you. The CHOICE is yours and all we can offer you is our "opinions" and "assessments" that are based entirely upon what you reveal to us about your situation and based upon what we know that can be of help if someone does choose to try to recover and rebuild their marriage.

IF you want to try to recover your marriage, rather than proceed directly to divorce, you will need to have plan and be simply reacting your emotions.

What I have been saying is that your husband IS currently approaching things from a Wayward Spouse perspective. Part of that "perspective" is that it's "okay" for him to go outside of the marriage for whatever reason he wants to think "justifies" his adultery and marital unfaithfulness.

I am also saying that while you may not have chosen adultery as "your way" to handle things in your marriage, it did appear that you presented a "do it my way" sort of orientation toward your husband. That, if true, might be part of the reason too. He may be "rebelling" against what he sees as your "control." In ANY affair, the Wayward Spouse IS "in control" of the affair, and that may be one of the things that he "likes" about these "I didn't really mean it" types of affairs. He is in control. That "strokes his ego.'




Misssad, if YOU want to try to recover your marriage the advice will be same as it would be for any Betrayed Spouse who is trying to recover their marriage too. Once a BS (Betrayed Spouse) CHOOSES to try recovery rather than divorce, there are NO "hopeless cases." There ARE cases that are "harder" to recover, but as long as someone is trying, is committed to the "long haul," is committed to making their own changes too, then there is always hope.

A "case" does not become "lost" until the BS decides that the WS "will not" (it IS ALWAYS a matter of Will, not that they cannot change) change their behaviors and their commitment to the marriage as an EXCLUSIVE arrangement wherein they voluntarily "give up" all "rights" to behave as if they were not married.




There are a few rare cases where going directly to Plan B makes sense, but they are in the vast minority.

In most cases, Plan B does NOT come until AFTER several months of Plan A activities. The "reason" is that the WS already has some "things" that they don't like about the BS or the BS's behavior that they are using as "justification" for committing adultery. In a few cases, the WS is so far gone and "self-centered" that they don't need a "reason" for adultery other than they simply feel entitled to do whatever they want to do. Your husband doesn't sound that way, so there are things that he doesn't like about the marriage that he has been using as his "justifications" his "bad behavior.

Plan A is about finding out what the Emotional Needs are for both of you, and determining how you have been meeting, or NOT meeting, HIS Emotional Needs and which of your EN's he has not been meeting for you. Then it takes a commitment to change and START meeting his EN's. That is usually the beginning of recovery. But if he refuses to change or try to change his behaviors and you then must go to a Plan B, the prior attempts at changing and meeting his EN's will leave him with memories of what the "new you" is like and that he is LOSING the chance at that "better life" WITH you unless he acts to begin recovery.





Again, there may a little problem with communication here where you may be misunderstanding this concept a little.

ANYTIME a spouse engages in adultery, they have, IN EFFECT, said that the marriage is dead to them. Marriage IS an exclusive arrangement where both husband and wife CHOOSE and COMMIT to never seek anyone outside of the marriage again. The way it is usually put is: "For better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, FORSAKING ALL OTHERS, until death do us part." Marriage is supposed to be a lifetime commitment, no matter what happens. The "answer" to "problems" is NOT adultery.

So in that sense, the "old marriage" IS dead. What Recovery tries to do is to rebuild a NEW marriage with the same people, not different people (that is what divorce and remarriage does).

YOU may not think your marriage is dead, but would you really want the "same old marriage" back? Or would you prefer to build a new marriage just like a new vessel is made out of the same clay that was originally a "flawed and imperfect" pot?

that was really helpfull FH, thanks a million, now i can make up my mind better, hope i do the right think. Pray for me, i do pray too, but never enough...

Hi Misssad,

FH has given you good info. I would like to add that recovery comes in 2 stages. Personal recovery and then marital recovery.

Personal recovery is something we each individually can do. Marital recovery requires both spouses to participate equally and fully as husband and wife.

Right now it appears your WS is not willing to participate fully. So where does that leave you?

That makes you a BS (betrayed spouse). You have the option to file for separation, file for divorce or work on plan A.

While you may eventually need to file for separation or divorce, what is your heart and mind telling you? Are you confused? Does your mind tell your divorce yet your heart keeps wanting to try? This often happens to us as BS'.

This is a good time to work on plan A. Plan A is designed to help the BS make self-improvements. Then after this is accomplished, if your H is still manifesting the traits of a WS but you still wish to try to keep the M, then plan B is an option which allows you as the BS to retain what love exists for your real H and your marriage.

I realize you want answers. You should be getting those answers but you realize your H is not cooperating with you so let's try a different tactic, ok?

Instead of demanding answers, learn to just listen and take it in. Learn to differentiate between babbling and true talk.

For now, take a look at plan A. Finish it.

Include in your plan A:

1. Remove all causes of the A from your home. Ex: Porn or inappropriate contact on the internet, then put a tool that will eliminate (blocking porn, etc.) or help you track his history.

2. Work with an MC or IC familiar with marriage building concepts. The concepts are listed above.

3. Secure your finances.

The goal is to make your self-improvements and create a safe environment for you and your family.

The time to move to plan B is when:

1. You have completed plan A and show it by the improvements you have made in your life.

2. When your mind and heart are in sync. This is a biggie because once your mind and heart sync up, you will realize the power you have as a BS and learn how to take control back of yourself and your family.

3. Secure all financial arrangements as needed.

4. Make family safety a requirement for his return.

There is more but that's a start. If you can get ahold of the books, Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs that would be good. Both are by Dr. Harley. Another good book is by Dr. Dobson: Love must be Tough. This books working in conjunction with plan B.

Hope this helps. Let us know how you are doing.

take care,
L.

thanks a million for helping Orchid.
Just read a bit of ur post, i'll continue after i asked u this: why do u say my H doesnt want to participate in the recovery?. He has offered to do ANYTHING i want: giving up his job in Spain and working here in Ireland again. He offered for all of us to move there so we can be together. He recognises he has done wrong and has apologised and is willing to work on MB program as we have been doing over Christmas. He wants us to go to Councelling and to have his computer and phones always available for me to check. |He has told me he will give me the next two months phone's records so i can check them too.He has offered to change the way finances were between us and said he was going to allow me to have input on ALL financial decisions and that he would get paid into family account so i would see where every penny goes.
This Christmas we had advanced so much and rebuilt a kind of romantic relationship again.
He said to me that in order 4 him to become the H i need he was going to work less so he could look after his health, go to a psiquiatrist and get better so this As (he NEVER calls them like that, he calls them Internet friends) would never happen again. He recognises he might need professional help to overcome his past mistakes.
On the other hand he said to me that if we were so happy as during Christmas he feels he has no tendency at all to contact any other woman for companionship since im fulfilling that EN.
He is willing to work on whatever i find wrong with him but he knows that he will have to give up his demanding job and he says he would like me to work part time so he can take more time off work and help mind the children.

Then i discovered this calls from him (about 14 calls, most of them lasted for few secs, and 2 were of 5 minutes)to the 20 yr old lituanian girl, and then 3 calls to prostitutes in Spain (one of them lasted for 8 mins).
So after i discovered this i was devastated and are changing my mind about whether ishould try recovery or not.

Now he has told me ab. the girl, that it was all a joke and is asking me to meet with her and him so she can tell me that they never actally met and had hardly no contact.
In regards to prost.calls, he made his work collegue call me and he said to me that he used my H,s phone to ring prostitutes because my H's phone (him being the project manager)was being paid by the company...
I believe not much of this because my H does speak Spanish, his collegue doesnt so could have spent so long talking to the prostitute.
What do you think ab. all this?
Is he worth it at all?.....

I read it all now.
Orchid, he is answering but he says it was only friendships on the internet and there was nothing physical. During xtmas he has been telling me all names, where he met these women, he says he only met two of them once and another one only twice (in the sailing club, but just because it happened they both were going sailing).
He works in Spain at the moment, goes on Sun. comes back on Thursdays. I asked him to stay in Spain until he finds a place here for him to stay, then he can start taking the kids with him some wknd.
Was it wrong to ask him this?.
Do u think he is lying?
Yes, my mind and heart are not sync. Will they ever be?
Should i let him come home tomorrow this wknd and talk more with him?

I also dont understand number 3 in Plan A or Number 4 in plan B.
how can i secure the finances. they are secure at the moment, i do have the money i need, we agreed on a plan about a yr ago and is working out fine eventhough i would prefer somethin else. We were talking about this over xtmas and he agreed he would do whatever i wanted, that he would do nothing ever again without my enthusiastic agreement

He called to see how was i doing, to see if i was being strong for the kids. i told him i was fine.
He said he will move into a house wich is 40 mins from here, we own it and the tenant just left, so it has become available. will have 2 mortgages. He didnt seem too sad about this. I said that when he has the house ready the kids can go to him one of the othe wknd. he agreed, probably wont happen until Feb or March. He is staying this wknd in Spain as i suggested. He says he has too much work anyway.
i kind of feel he might have some girlfriend over there by now and might want to continue that relationship.
Its such a pity.
im still not sure this is the right decision. im dying to ring him and tell him: come home, i need to cry with you, im so lonely here...so so lonely. I came to this country because of u, i love u so dearly, i miss u so terribly...
Am i doing the right thing?, should i ask him to come home this wknd?. Please anybody HELP ME. i have this two little beautiful kids and are seing me crying...

Misssad - I am getting confused by your conflicting emotions. I understand them, having gone through them myself, but let me try to give you my opinion, as it is right now, based upon what you said about your husband wanting to recover your marriage and do anything you want.

You should not be separated right now. That can come later if he "doesn't get with the program." Right now you need to be together and working together to recover from the this mess and PUT IN PLACE things that will provide "extraordinary precautions" to prevent a reocurrence of his "bad behaviors."

You both need to be working the plan, and part of that plan is "Transparency" and "Accountability" for time and actions.

We can talk more about that if you decide to "give it a go," but if you are separated it will be much harder to work on a plan, especially if you are talking about a "Plan B" separation (which does not appear called for at this time).

Foreverhers- but my mind says to me that if i decide to give another go im going to be suffering for a good few yrs if not for the rest of my life.
i have no garantee that he'll ever settle and become a good and normal H.
My heart is crying out loud to give him another chance.
I feel he has had physical As but I have no real proof of this. Until he confesses i wont believe he has had P As. If he has had PAs, this would mean so much pain to me that i definitly wont give him another chance.
Another thing is that he doesnt seem to be figthing hard to come back to me and been forgiven for his Emotional Affairs. For what he said last, he still seems to feel he was entitle to find companionship in other women because he didnt find it in me

(((((Misssad)))))

There ARE no guarantees. There weren't and guarantees before all of this either. It takes WORK and a conscious choice.




You are basing your decision on "fears" without proof. If you must have proof that there was or was not a Physical Affair, then keep digging. But if you "badger" your husband until he simply "tells you what you want to hear," that's not proof either. Especially if you've also decided that if there was a PA you WILL NOT remain married.

That IS your choice, as I have been saying all along. You can choose to attempt to recover your marriage or you can get a divorce. The choice IS yours.




Let me be a little facitious here for a minute, okay?

Surprise, surprise!!! I'm not at all surprised to hear this.

He is STILL in the "fog" of a Wayward Spouse mindset. You CAN'T expect him to be "recovered" yet. Neither one of you has even started to address the problems yet. And that is also why I am telling you that there are no guarantees that recovery efforts will be successful. But one thing is CERTAIN, there WILL BE NO recovery unless you and he both try.

God bless.

thanks fh, it makes sense.He is still somewhere else.i called him to ask for his credit card details so i can pay tomorrow the Harleys session (i have no credit card), i told him i would pay this out of my own money.
He said: u dont need councelling, u did nothing wrong, it was me.
i said: u go to C to get guidance, help. im going to need C for yrs after this and u too, but u might go to other women, i'll try to go to the right people to get support.\
He said: u are strong, u'll be ok, u dont need councelling
Then the line went funny and he hung up and send a text:
i wont have this fat belly when i come home
i called back a few times but his mobile is engaged and he wont pick up phone in his room.
He is not in any hurry to talk with me again.
i text back:i'll call u tom. morning to get credit card details. i feel he might have some girlfriends waiting for him this evening. that's why he is taking our situation so ligthly while im crying my eyes out

i dont think im basing my decisions in fears.
I cant believe he has had PA but he might and this means A LOT to me, i dont think i could EVER forgive him that. I would mean he has left me really and truly, it would mean to me that he never loved me

Even though he 'promised' to do all, is he? From what you posted, I think not.

My WS did the same. He promised the world several times. You know why? Because his selfish side saw his losses. In our case it was him losing $$. Not because he wanted his family back. That's why the recovery went into the toilet several times.

In real recovery words match actions. You should hear and see his changes.

So what does this mean? Pay attention to his actions. Let him know you hear his words but now need to see his actions to match it, otherwise his words are meaningless.

IMHO, right now he is playing on your emotions. He thinks he has you in a position to support his A.

JMHO,
L.

But Orchid,Foreverhers:
he only promised this past xtmas when he saw the change in me as i applied Plan A and he fell in love with me again, i felt this really happened like this. So he hasn't had time to do what he has promised.
I got his phone records 2 days before he was due to go back to work in Spain. During Christmas he offered to give up his job in Spain, to give up work so he could be constantly with me and kids to show his commitment to us and go to doctors, councelling or whatever i thought necessary to make me trust his efforts to be better.
Until i saw the phone records and made those calls i was kind of convinced i wanted to try M recovery but not after i discovered he had rang prostitutes and had invited the 20 yr old to Spain.
He is insisting in us meeting with this girl so she'll clarify that he was only playing a joke with her...
I dont agree that he has me in aposition to support his A. |He knows that if i decide to give recovery a chance then he'll be watched really carefully and i'll expect A LOT from his behaviour and efforts to make things better.
He just texted saying:lets put it together, we can sell some houses and i will stop working for a yr so we can really think where it has gone wrong for us.

Do you think i should wait until my mind and heart are syncronised and then decide to split? or should i do it now that my mind tells me to do so?

Yes.

Orchid, what are u answering yes to?

Do you think i should wait until my mind and heart are syncronised and then decide to split?

(sorry, thought you had only 1 question...)

L.