Hi Graplin,

I understand what you're saying and have heard that explanation before too (other places than MB's).

"Which might sound less horrible?

I hurt my family so I could be with this icky person or I hurt my family so I could be with this nice person?

If the OP sucks then what does that say about the wayward spouse who chose the sucky OP?"

And although I can see that would make sense from a WS who is still fogged up a little... what I can't get is why a supposedly FWS would persist in that mindset indefinitely. Doesn't the WS ever shift from protect my image by protecting the OW's image mindset to acknowledging that continued defense of the OW is continued hurting of the BS?

Because what it sounds like to the BS is:

"I hurt my BW (who is not as good as the OW) so I could be with this OW (who has no flaws and don't anybody dare try to say so!).

And doesn't the WS have to acknowledge at some point, in order for recovery to even have a chance, that they DID do something selfish and hurtful, and that it wasn't because the BS was in some way inferior to the OP?

mm,

I wish I were more familiar with your story.

How far into Recovery are you?

Does your H actually say these things to you...that you aren't as good as the OW? Or is that the message you are receiving from him in some of his statements?

If it is the latter, what are the specific statements he is making?

"In the overall scheme of things, particularly recovery, though...

...this whole discussion amounts 2 little more than an exercise in mental mas2rbation 2 me.

I love my W. I love my family. I'd like 2 hold it 2gether rather than dwell on things that might still have the power 2 rip it apart, if I let it."

I see what you're saying in regard to your situation 2Long, but there are BS's who are not yet in recovery and/or who have unrepentent WS's, who are dealing with this sort of hurtful WS attitude.

And in some cases, if this WS attitude is not recognized and resolved it could very well lead to future adulteries. So IMHO it is difficult to 'affair-proof' the marriage if the WS has not yet acknowledged that the OP was deceptively pretending to believe their lies, that the OP had an agenda too.

So while I certainly understand your own desire to not discuss something that you view as mental mas2rbation, please consider that many of us here at MB's do want/need to discuss this important aspect of adultery recovery.

BTW, I am sincerely happy for you and your wife that this is not an issue preventing your own recovery.

Possibly, what 2long is referring to as mental masturbation is the discussion about WHY the WS or OP believes this or that.

Personally, I enjoy mental masturbation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But I can understand that some people aren't as interested in the psychological aspects.

If what 2 long was communicating was that he doesn't think that the 'why' aspect is necessary to finding a resolution for this issue, I do agree.

But I understand completely why this bothers you and the fear you must feel as a result and if it were me, I would NEED resolution.

t/j..hi ya froz! I miss you, girl. Did Patriot pass on the message to email me if you want?

Hi BringItOn,

I am not denying that sometimes age and lack of experience can be major factors in how some of us women get involved with the wrong guy. And because of the middle sentence in the following quote from you, I wasn't referring to women like you. I'm talking about WS's who deny that the OW did anything wrong and pretend that the OW NEVER are possible of detecting the truth at any point and are therefore completely innocent.

"I was young and foolish. I was also wrong for the fornication. Sometimes, age is a player in stupid decisions."

I'll give you a few examples from my own life:

I have a sister who is a serial adulterer. She also has a drinking problem. She gets drunk then comes on to men. Everyone in the family has witnessed her flirting while drinking pattern. Sometimes her flirting leads to adultery. If at some point one of her adultery partners chooses his girlfriend/finace/wife over her then she claims she was 'molested' after the guy 'got her drunk'. According to her, several different guys 'took her virginity' this way. I love my sister and wish she would get help for her problem. But my WXH acts as if he actually believes her stories, even though there is an obvious pattern and the conflicting stories of how her virginity was taken can't possibly all be true.

After breaking up with one of his OW my WXH continued to defend her 'honor', claiming she was 'innocent' because she believed his lies about us supposedly being separated. And he continued to defend her 'innocence' even when she continued the adultery with my husband after I met her and told her the truth, AND even after some of her relatives revealed that she'd been telling them from the beginning that she was just playing along and posing as naive - that she knew from the beginning he was not really separated!

I have no problem with acknowledging that it is possible for a very young woman to be conned by a married man. As Star*Fish posted that is one category of possibility.

What I am addressing is when the OW believing the WH's lies is just a pretense but the WH fails to realize that.

IMHO it hinders recovery and future 'affair-proofing' of the marriage.

Hi FF!

You left a message with a MAN????

I've missed you too. I can't find your e-mail address! If you'll e-mail me at frozen1229@gmail.com, so I'll have it, I'd love to catch up with you.

I'm off work today and have my yahoo IM on, if you'd prefer.

There are probably a couple of dynamics going on in this kind of situation. Warning, generalizations ahead.

Often in an affair, both participants are getting and presenting their best behavior. If the affair comes to a halt before the chemicals have worn off, the WS has experienced the high but not the lows of a relationship. Few arguments, few demands, no chores, no responsibilities, no cutting remarks, no long time resentments - all things that can take place in any longer-term relationship. It's not that the flaws aren't there, there just hasn't been enough time for them to be revealed.

Dr. Harley even writes about this - that's what NC is all about. WSs are left with dangling accounts in their lovebank and contact can easily reopen it.



While this is the way everyone would probably like it to be (and understandably so), no, it isn't required. I'm pulling this from memory, but IIRC, the very first example in one of Dr. Harley's books is (I believe the name was) Sue. Who never did apologize for her affair and yet her husband reconciled and their marriage continued.

In regards to the "BS was in some way inferior to the OP" - is that an interpretation or is that something actually said? Dr. Harley points out that in many affairs (certainly not all) the OP is meeting some of the WS's ENs. That isn't an indictment of the BS, it is an acknowledgment that marital relationships can have areas of connection that are not being fed and sometimes are actively damaged. That's not an judgment of inferiority of the BS, because they most likely met those ENs at some point. Life, children, resentments, work, schedules, independent behaviors, etc., can often make it hard for each spouse to be aware of and providing each other's ENs.

An affair often (again, not always and this doesn't apply to all types of affairs) opens the eyes of the BS to some of their possible contributions to the quality of the marriage. An affair is never a justifiable response to problems in a marriage.

I agree with Graplin.

But I feel frustrated because I feel like I understand what meremortal is trying to express.

If I'm not mistaken, she is saying that she feels threatened by what she perceives to be a WS mindset (generally speaking) and that its presence causes her to feel vulnerable to another affair.

Am I off base, mm?

"If I'm not mistaken, she is saying that she feels threatened by what she perceives to be a WS mindset (generally speaking) and that its presence causes her to feel vulnerable to another affair."

Yes, that's it.

I didn't really worry too much about this with my WH at first, noticed it and of course it bothered me, but at first I was able to sort of see it more from the POV of the OW, even expressing some sympathy for the OW. But as time went on, and it became obvious that my WH had a pattern of adulterous behavior and thinking, I became more worried and threatened by this OW are always innocent mindset of his.

There never really was a point in the recoveries after WH's adulteries where he got to the point that he would admit the OW did anything wrong.

And then it was like a major red flag when he couldn't even acknowledge any OW responsibility/deceit when this one particular OW's own family were saying she had it all planned out: she never believed my WH's lie that we were 'separated' and was just pretending to believe to buy herself more time to compete with me AND to not have my WH think she was the sort of woman who would purposely set out to break up a marriage! That woman's response to everything I told her was: "Big f...ing deal - I already know that". I told her we weren't seperated, that my husband had oroblems with fooling arund before, that he was calling all day long telling me how much he loved me, and that I was 2 1/2 months pregnant with a PLANNED pregnancy... She claimed she already knew all that (although I doubt she knew I was pregnant) and din't care. She was FURIOUS that I had caught them both together and that I had told her parents (both H and OW had lied to OW parents - they weren't the relatives who told me OW knew the truth all along). And she told me my WH and she had "a very special friendship that's none of your F...ing business!"

Now the thing is, my WH HEARD her say all that, and somehow STILL insisted on defending her and expressiing sympathy for her (because he had hurt her and lied to her).

I guess he was trying to gaslight me into believing she was innocent despite the evidence otherwise?

"Often in an affair, both participants are getting and presenting their best behavior. If the affair comes to a halt before the chemicals have worn off, the WS has experienced the high but not the lows of a relationship. Few arguments, few demands, no chores, no responsibilities, no cutting remarks, no long time resentments - all things that can take place in any longer-term relationship. It's not that the flaws aren't there, there just hasn't been enough time for them to be revealed."

I totally agree with that Graplin. But for some reason, with my WH even after the honeymoon phase of the adultery would end, and the OW and WH started to argue about things (usually OW's wanting to control or get a committment) my WH would still describe the OW in mostly glowing terms. (Although he did at times express anger about their control attempts.) Sometimes I wonder if maybe I should have waited longer to expose the last two adulteries... to give the OW more time to reveal their flaws? But I was also majorly worried about the likelihood that the OW would succeed in getting pregnant meanwhile.

I think my WXH is aware that the OW are on their best behavior, and maybe even plans to get while the getting is good and then to move on to another OW...

I guess that's part of the appeal of serial adultery? Instead of just the addiction to a particular OP, there is a bigger addiction to adultery in general, to that honeymoon phase fun that NO long-term relatonship can easily compete with.

"Does your H actually say these things to you...that you aren't as good as the OW? Or is that the message you are receiving from him in some of his statements?"

Yes, Frozen, sometimes he did make comments, both directly and indirectly, that the OW were better than me.

I didn't know anything about Plan B until very late in our marriage, so I didn't know to stay away from WH to protect myself from hearing all that hurtful fog-babble. But even years into 'recovery' he just couldn't seem to let go of the attitude and occasional comments that OW was better than me. Of course once the adultery had ended he'd eventually stop the direct comparisons and switch to mostly just criticisms of me. And earlier in our marriage I would really try to improve myself, take his criticisms so seriously you know and work on my 'flaws'. But his critical spirit wouldn't change. He'd ignore the improvements and just switch to some other criticism.

And part of the problem is he rarely complimented me, and NEVER defended me. So it really hurt to hear him defend the OW.

It's as if in his mind chivalrous and romantic behavior was ONLY reserved for women OTHER than his wife.

I could maybe understand it if he just wasn't the romantic or chivalrous type, you know how some guys just don't have those skills... but he had a really good repertoire of skills in making a woman feel good. I guess he just didn't see any need to treat somebody he was aleady married to that way?

meremortal,

Thank you for the clarification. I still feel very guilty about that whole mess.

I do appreciate the gist of this thread. I get offended by H defending (hasn't happened for a long time) OW. "Her H was such a horrible man...blah, blah,blah..." Ah well, the light bulb is coming on in his world.

I would like to comment on 2 things I read in this thread.


Not right and not any better than talking dirt, but my FOM and I did not discuss our spouses or our marriages even in our 5 year friendship prior to crossing any lines. Once we started crossing lines it was easier to pretend they didn't exist.

I can honestly say the first time he made any moves I was shocked. I had been attracted to him for a very long time, but I had no idea it was mutual. I also had no idea about the state of his marriage other than what I observed.



In my case it was what Starfish stated here. It was also what led to the ending of the A. Hindsight and what I learned after the A was that my FOM is a compulsive liar with a serious problem. I just didn't see it when my head was in the fog.

Even with such a long friendship the A only lasted a few months because I started catching him in lies. At first they were little things, but they were like a tap on the shoulder saying, "Ummmmm, get a clue, he's lying." I don't know why previous to this time I didn't see it, but once I started to see it, it was very hard to ignore it. It is what helped to start pulling my head out of fantasyland.

Edited to add: Believing all his lies led to some issues for me wondering how I could be so incredibly stupid. It took me a very long time to get over that part of it.

LC

LifesChoice,

I appreciate your adding your perspective.

I wonder what you maybe presumed about his wife, even though he didn't try to justify the adultery by putting his wife down? Didn't you take into consideraton that the adultery was something she didn't deserve? What did you think of his wife? What was the basis for your justification for the adultery?

"Edited to add: Believing all his lies led to some issues for me wondering how I could be so incredibly stupid. It took me a very long time to get over that part of it."

What lies did he tell you? Why did you believe them and what did you do to try to verify his statements before believing them?

And I guess it maybe takes even longer for the BW sometimes to understand why OW so willingly believe WH lies.

Well in my case the OW was a co-worker of my FWH and she (as well as everyone in a smal less than 10 person office) knew that he was married. He had a family portrait on his desk that everyone saw on a daily basis. But she did not care she wanted him and went after him and he still defended her to me. This is just yet another thought to throw in the pot.

My W-STBX's OW was also a coworker, married and knew W-STBX was married. Likewise, W-STBX knew OW was married. They both defended each other vehnemently to myself and OWH. W-STBX has also badmouthed OWH to me saying he was a bad husband yada, yada, yada and OW has badmouthed me to OWH - called me wacko among other things. According to OW/OWH's DD6, OW and W-STBX also badmouth OWH to her. Interestingly, I have never, ever met OW and OWH has never, ever met W-STBX. So all of this badmouthing is either (a) what they want to believe about us or (b) what the other affair partner has told them about us. Neither changes the fact that they both committed adultery on their own spouse as well as broke up another marriage not their own.

But it doesn't matter because we (OWH & I) are so bad that it was most certainly our fault and once we realize that then everyone can all be happy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

In my case OM told WW all sorts of stories about OMW that just weren't true (I think this is one of his tactics in his continual quest for affair partners). WW also told OM I was terrible (hence my nickname "animal").

I think there are probably different situations, but for my WW I feel like she had to say those things to OM to justify in her mind why it was ok to do what they are doing. It's the old "demonize your spouse so you can feel ok about f'ing around on him" story.

I know it's all fog babble, but WW actually tried to convince me I wasn't happy in our marriage so I would hopefully let her continue her A and move on to one of my own.

HA HA! My W-STBX also did this. Recently, they took it one step further - both W-STBX and OW have told OWH and I that we should move in together so he can give her more child support <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />!!! I kid you not - they are so fogged in they actually thought this was a reasonable request!!! FWIW, OWH and I aren't dating or anythign - we maintain contact primarily for information. They don't care - they just want to continue to make us responsible for any problems they might have which currently are financial.

"Well in my case the OW was a co-worker of my FWH and she (as well as everyone in a smal less than 10 person office) knew that he was married. He had a family portrait on his desk that everyone saw on a daily basis. But she did not care she wanted him and went after him and he still defended her to me. This is just yet another thought to throw in the pot."

I honestly don't even understand why my WXH even bothered to lie to the OW, because I was able to very easily verify that the OW didn't care anyway, and didn't need to be lied to in order for him to talk them into cheating with him.

(For that matter, they could have very easily verified what he was telling them too... IF they really cared. All evidence I saw was that my WXH's OW did NOT want to be deprived of their ignorance as that is how they pretended their innocence.)

I guess some OW just prefer to present themselves as sweet and innocent, and then later as a 'victim' of the married man's lies? They probably figure why reveal they are really immoral if they don't have to? My bet is my WXH's OW even secretly appreciated my WXH lying to them.