Disclaimer: O/T

Pep:

I luv ya...

I wanted to proclaim it on a thread..

BUT....

((((PEP))))

Yes, I think you're right ~ and that that's why his comments bothered me so much...I think my FWH is still at risk for a few reasons. I'll try to update my thread sometime today...

BTW, can I ask, how did you handle that conversation with Mrs?

I have apologized to my FOM's BW. When I first apologized she told me she was unable to accept my apology. I completely understood.

Several months after the verbal apology to her I received a note in the mail from her stating this: (I have a copy of it in my personal journal. For obvious reasons I removed our names)

Dear LC,

The past few months have given me time to think, pray and reflect. Though the words and actions of the past caused me sorrow and pain, it is not my desire to ascribe proportionate blame or harbor hurtful attitudes. I wish to extend forgiveness and sincere well wishes for continued healing, growth and happiness for you and your family. May you experience a resurrection of joy this Easter season.

FOM's W

P.S. I've just learned of your father's passing. My condolences to you and your family on your loss.

I knew FOM's W and wasn't sure what to do once I received her note. After a week or so decided I wanted to reply to her note and sent her the following.

Dear FOM's W,

I received your note offering forgiveness and it was greatly appreciated. I would also like to let you know I am approachable if you ever want to talk. Because of the overwhelming guilt and complete disregard of my core values I am still working on self forgiveness, perhaps with time that will come.

I wish you and FOM continued healing and the best for the future. I deeply regret what we did and am truly sorry for my part in the pain you have felt over this huge mistake I was very selfishly a part of.

LC

FOM and I were still working together at the time and he expressed to me his W did appreciate my reply.

My initial verbal apology was a few months after I confessed to my DH and was through my DH. The reason the apology was through my DH is because when he told me he wanted to talk to her and make sure she knew about the A. I asked him to tell her I was very sorry and he did. It was at that point she said she was unable to accept it.

I replied because I wanted her to know my initial apology was sincere and that it did come from me. I also wanted her to know I did take the time to read her note. I didn't want her to wonder if I read it or simply threw it out like it meant nothing.

Edited to add: My DH never received an apology from my FOM and they were friends.

LC

I would also like to add this thought:

I knew all along from the time I ended the A until I did apologize that it was something I wanted to do. A big obstacle for me was wondering how she would feel about me contacting her. I figure I am the last person on the planet she would ever want to hear from.

I wonder how many OP don't apologize for fear of contacting someone who they know would rather they not ever hear from.

LC

There are several FWS on these boards that have apologized to the OBS. The first that fell into my mind was Sincere1. But there are many more. In her case it was very well received. You can read it: Ca page 195 in the recovery board.


You should keep in mind that lots of BS's do not want any contact, including an apology. They want to be left alone. I have also seen several times that the OP's apology is refered to as selfish, as just a need to ease their feling of guilt.
I don't agree on that. I think that giving an apology is a debt the offender has to all his/her victims.

I agree, Frank. I think the OP owes the apology, but often feels like the BS doesn't want to hear it.

I also think there are likely mixed feelings on the part of many BS's on receiving the apologies of the OP. Maybe that has to do with the rollercoaster. Perhaps the timing of the apology would have a lot to do with how it would be received by the BS. Also, the timing of when the apology was written - if during a foggy time on the part of the OP, well, the apology would likely be less than well-written and might have justifications; at other times, it might be written at a time when the OP feels true remorse and would come from the heart and be sincere.

SB

SB,

I agree timing does play a part in it.

My apology was over a year after I ended the A. In that year I had time to really process what I did. Like I said in my other message I always knew I wanted to apologize, but I also think if it was early on after I ended it it would have been a little different.

I had already been to therapy and really realized the full realm of the betrayal. Prior to therapy and early after the A ended I think it would have been more for me than for her. What I mean by that is probably more to easy my guilt.

When I gave my apology it was because I truly was sorry for what I did to her.

LC

.

Perfectly said.

Most times I believe it doesn't happen because the OP is cruel and immature. They also do not want to admit to their own selfishness as well as their own stupidity in believing all the lies.

I would also bet that most OPs continue to believe that the BS truly was as awful and horrible as the FWS claimed and does not deserve an apology. [If that was really the case then why, in a recovered or recovering M, is the FWS even WANTING to recover?!?!? I wonder if that thought ever crosses the OPs mind?].

This is a good question, one I have wondered as well.

I think someone asked how many BSs ever get apologies...my guess would be maybe 10%.

I've read here for several years and I don't recall reading any regular ongoing poster who has advocated some sort of shortcut that is in contradiction to Dr. Harley's methods.

Have you?

Isn't recovery something to be determined by the couple in the marriage? When it comes to whether or not someone is recovered, how do you or anyone else get to determine when that is on an anonymous forum?

For ex. I have no idea whether or not you and your wife are recovered. I don't know what goes on in your life on a daily basis, whether or not you follow Harley's methods of POJA, have eliminated independent behaviors, strive to spend 15 hours together every week, follow the goal of shared recreational companionship, diligently work to meet each other's ENs, practice radical honesty, etc. Nor does anyone know the actual quality of my marriage.

For all I or anyone else on an anonymous forum knows you and your spouse could be the epitome of Marriage Builders' methods or you might be its antithesis.

I know that many folks on MB have even had lunches and get togethers in various locales at different times, but even in an actual meeting, the ability to judge the success of your (or anyone else's) marriage and/or recovery is limited. People can put on a public face if they choose and hide their reality for a time. Even knowing both spouses in the marriage is no guarantee that the status of their marriage or their recovery is successful. That knowing is even more limited on an internet forum.

So, recovery isn't based on whether or not someone has met your criteria - not is lack of recovery based on criteria you think is necessary - recovery is determined by the two people in the marriage.

Secondly, people have differing religious beliefs. Some have no religious beliefs at all. I don't know upon what you are basing the "still possess the booty of all the sin" while lumping up a child with money and pics as if they have any equivalency.

What a married couple does with any child conceived outside the marriage, is between that couple and whatever agreement they reach. You nor I, or anyone else on this forum is in a position of telling them what they *have* to do in regards to this issue.


Whether or not you can see it is irrelevant. That is an issue for the couple themselves.

Where in Dr. Harley's material does he instruct the repentant wayward to contact the OPS and apologize? If we are discussing what is and isn't recovery, do you have a list from Dr. Harley to which you are referring? If so, can you post a link or book title?

I've noticed an interesting concept that seems to be promulgating throughout several threads by different people. References to stolen goods, theft, booty, the necessity of apology to the OPS, etc seem to have proliferated recently - is there an online article, book title or monthly email in which Dr. Harley discusses this concept?

Hi Pep:

I wanted 2 comment on this. When I read the first part of this, I felt a little resentment because my W still bashed Mrs Meat (now ex Mrs Meat) for at least 3 years after d-day. And then, I remember that it hasn't been all that long since the last 'dropped hint' that my W still blames me in part for her affair (though she's never ac2ally vocalized it in those words). Then I had 2 catch myself, because I've at various times been pretty "unsafe" for her 2 open up 2 over the past 6 years.

And so the moral of the story for me here is that, although I could never be responsible for my W choosing 2 have an A, I sure could still take some more responsibility for being her safe place person 2 come 2 if she's unhappy.

She's so pretty when she laughs or smiles these days.

-ol' 2long

***************EDIT*************.

People are under no obligation to you or anyone else on this forum to tell anything.

The Harleys have made it clear that people can post on here who don't even agree with Marriage Builders methods. We've all seen anti-MB advice offered here.

**************EDIT**********

*YOU CAN POST HERE WITHOUT AGREEING WITH THE MARRIAGE BUILDER'S METHODS.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU WERE A WAYWARD SPOUSE.

YOU CAN POST HERE EVEN WHILE YOU ARE A WAYWARD SPOUSE.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU WERE A BETRAYED SPOUSE.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU ARE A BETRAYED SPOUSE.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU HAVE NEVER SUFFERED THROUGH INFIDELITY.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU ARE MARRIED.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU ARE SINGLE.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU'VE BEEN MARRIED ONCE.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU'VE BEEN MARRIED MORE THAN ONCE.

The MEMBERS of this forum are not required to make some sort of public penance on anything, past, present of future
and they do NOT have to pass some hidden test ************EDIT**********

*caps for emphasis not for shouting.

I have an idea. For those who disagree with the TOS and how the admins and mods are running this board, and who would like to implement stricter entrance requirements, they can start their own board! It can be private, by invitation only, and they can invite only the people who agree with them! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Then they wouldn't have to put up with us Samaritans. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Here is an imperfect study in mixed metaphors:

Once upon a time there lived a little Lamb, in a deep forest full of dangerous animals. The most dangerous of all were the innocent-looking bunnies, for they were the clever leaders of the flock of sheep. The bunnies were very diligent at preventing the spread of unorthodox teachings that might lead astray any of their flock of sheep.

But the little Lamb developed a following in spite of the bunnies' counter-activities.

Early one morning the little Lamb began to teach the sheep following him.

The bunnies and the hares brought a ewe caught eating in another sheep's pasture. They said to the Lamb, "The TOS command us to throw rocks at this ewe until she leaves. What do you say?"

They were testing him, so that they might have a reason for banning him. But the Lamb wrote with his hoof on the ground.

But when they persisted in asking him, he straightened up, and said to the bunnies, "He who is without fault among you, let him be the first to throw a rock at the ewe."

Again he wrote on the ground.

When they heard it, they began to thump and hop out, one by one, beginning with the ones who reged first, even unto the newbie; and the Lamb was left alone, and the ewe, where she was, in the center of the clearing.

The Lamb said to her, "Ewe, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"

She said, "No one, Lamb." And the Lamb said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go now and don't let it happen again."

I don't think Jesus ever whined, "You're mean!"

He was quite firm when he said it.

Graplin & Jayne241 -

I started this thread to discuss an aspect of adultery that is personally important to me and that I've long felt is not discussed much at MB's. It is an issue I've seen other BS's bring up from time to time, but not getting discussed in much depth.

"and they do NOT have to pass some hidden test demanded by a very few in order to participate here without this type of threatening harassment."

OK... I've assumed it's OK for me to start theads to discuss aspects of adultery that I've been dealing with personally and that I hadn't seen an existing thread about to join in on. Is there some sort of test I was supposed to pass first before doing so? Was I supposed to get permission first from 'a very few' before bringing this subject up? And as to the 'threatening harrassment'... ? Was that aimed at me? Are you saying this is such a 'threatening' topic here? Well, whatever it is you are saying, it's obvious you don't want this topic to be discussed, so please refrain from posting in this thread on this topic.

If you are not interested in the discussion of this topic I suggest you not visit this thread. I honestly would like to discuss this topic and I would appreciate it if this thread be left alone by those who see everything posted through the eyes of their 'side' of some feud.

As I have stated before, the feuding here at MB's is of little to no interest to me. Whereas some posters are more interested in who said something, how they said it, or why they said something, I am the type of person that is more interested in WHAT is said (and then sometimes why it's said as in the reasoning behind it - not WHO said it or which 'side' of some feud they are on). I am most certainly not interested in any sort of 'popularity contest'. I don't even look at things that way, as evidenced by my choice in posting name and my preference to start issue/topic-related threads versus 'my' thread. It's just one of my wierdnesses I guess LOL. Again, the topic pretty much is the topic for me - not who said something and which 'side' they are on.

"You know this charade is really getting tiresome.

I agree. Please leave this thread/discussion alone.

"Do those of you who are doing this realize how obvious you are being? If you were trying for subtlety, it is not working."

Take your feuding with whomever this is directed at out of this thread. I started this thread, for the reasons I stated. If you don't want to participate in the discussion of this topic nobody's forcing you to. And the last I checked, I do not need your permission to discuss this or any other adultery-related topic here at MB's. Whatever YOU are subtly implying isn't going to work here - take your complaint/theory/accusation/whatever out of this thread.

Meremortal,

I hope you don't mind if I add a question to your thread. (if so let me know and I will delete it)

My question is genuine because if my FOM and his W had been following MB principles and sent me a NC letter I would have honored what the NC letter asked, therefore my FOM's W would not have gotten an apology from me.

How many BS who have sent NC letters would still like to receive an apology from the OP?

LC

This is actually a tougher question than I first thought.

On one hand, I'd like to believe than OM is irrelevant to me/us. He is discussed often in our household but mostly as a label of OM relative to MB discussions. However, I suppose, I would "like" to receive an apology from him which kinda means he's not irrelevant.

I certainly don't NEED an apology from him so then what about an apology would I necessarily "like"? I don't know for certain. Maybe...repentence is something God does through you and I would see it as coming from Him. Maybe, since in our situation this ordeal involved 3 people (OM was not married) then it would be nice to see all 3 people had recovered from it. (as most of us are aware of what happens to unrepentent adulterers).

Plus, there is the notion that you can only forgive someone once they ask for it.

As far as the NC letter. OM CAN most certainly violate it to repent.

Mr. Wondering

Mere, my responses have the name of the person I was responding to right there in the post header. Your name does not appear in any of my responses from last night.

And that is because you had not written the posts to which I was responding. I don't know why you assumed my responses were to you since I didn't address anything you have said.

It's your choice to accept posters on your thread who are making the claim that existing members on this forum aren't meeting their personal requirements of what will constitute recovery and if those posters do not, they will be threatened, and innuendos will be made about them.

It is also your choice to take issue with posters who call foul against those who point out that the Harley's make no such requirement before one is able to post on their forum.

It is also noteworthy to me that you have asserted your right and obligation to keep right on posting to others even though you have been asked not to and no matter how disruptive your participation is to someone else's thread.

Orwell said something quite profound about humans and group dynamics when he said, "Some animals are more equal than others."

Unlike others who continue posting repeatedly after a request has been made that they stop, I will honor your request.

Thanks for this .... it made me realize I had misspelled agHast !

Here is the deal-e-o for me....

I would not feel 'safe' with Mr Pep if he persisted in bashing the spouse of his A partner.

just me, I guess

Pep

PS .... added afterthought

I would not feel 'safe' if Mr Pep persisted in bashing OW either !

They were equally ugly in their actions. He has no superior adultery excuse simply because he is my spouse

Same here, Pep. I would be personally offended and ALARMED if my H bashed the OWH. The OWH was his VICTIM, after all. If my H did that, I would know he is not truly sorry for he did and was NOT RECOVERED.