And you can also call yourself " best advisor " and post any old rubbish but only personal experience and it related to MB principles will give a person's advice credibility.

MB works, maybe better than any other recovery philosophy. Uninformed opinion rarely does in my experience of infidelity. Instinct is rarely our friend in this horrible situation.

I am still married largely as a result of applying MB to my life with the help of others who lent me MB tenets, filtered and exemplified by their own experience.

If this were a cancer support board, which has similar TOS to MB, would you also tolerate self-gratifying, vanity and trolling advisers ? Would you still consider them benign , while folks who would seek to silence them corrupt and despotic ?

The messages of MB saves lives and marriages. The people who generously share their own experience or insight of MB tenets actually save lives and marriages.

I do not appreciate the "white noise" of vanity advising and trolling when such work is underway, regardless of the site's generously inclusive TOS.

You clearly disagree.

I think that's a good question LifesChoice:

"My question is genuine because if my FOM and his W had been following MB principles and sent me a NC letter I would have honored what the NC letter asked, therefore my FOM's W would not have gotten an apology from me.
How many BS who have sent NC letters would still like to receive an apology from the OP?"

I wasn't really thinking of that when I started this thread (because my WXH never sent a no contact letter to the latest OW I guess).

But it is reasonable to assume that there would be fewer apologies from OW who have recieved a no contact letter.

Also, I realize that some BW's might not even want an apology from the OW.

But in my situation, with the size town I live in, the amount of damage the adultery did to my family, and the heniousness of the false rumors the OW helped my WXH spread (minus ANY proof BTW that I was as awful as WXH described me to OW - she just EAGERLY (NOBODY is THAT naive) believed and blabbed around town WXH's put-downs of me. And THEN when she did find out some truths that countered the rumors she continued the adultery and the negative gossipping abotu me for some time. Her latest acting gig is pretended victimhood and good-girl status... She is telling folks that she ONLY slept with a married man because she felt sorry for him because he said he had cancer (wonder if she 'volunteers' at the hospitals too?)... that she now realizes that I'm 'probably' a good woman 'too' (she's insisting she IS) that was just some sort of co-victim with her because of WXH's lies and cruelty and she is one of the people who serves as a 'greeter' at her church welcoming new folks... and she is involved with a lot of charity and community projects too. IMHO she is doing her best to appear to be a good girl/victim, with the grace to be even a tad forgiving or gracious towards me as an added bonus for her own reputation, WITHOUT having to actually admit any wrongdoing on her part or to actually apologize to me and my daughters.

She knew what she was doing then and she knows what she is doing now too.

She knew about the damage the adultery caused my daughters and she didn't care, still doesn't IMHO. Even with her current public image campaign I've yet to hear a single word from her or anyone else that she even acknowledges let alone takes any responsibility for the damage to my daughters.

]

Well, I hope it was a tad more useful than that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I don't think this is just you. I think it approaches a universal truth, ac2ally.



Now THIS takes compassion and empathy! I still struggle with, at times "needing" my W 2 denigrate Rat Meat. But I don't think that's right. As this quote about forgiveness says:


I've never met RM, and he's not other wise in our lives anyway, except for having had an A with my W. In many ways, it's easier for me 2 vilify him as a "bad person" rather than just a fool who eschewed bad behavior, because I only know him through is behavior (I told my W this a 2ple years ago).

With time, it gets easier for me 2 accept that he's no worse than a flawed human with poor choice-making skills. Particularly so long as he stays out of our lives.

While I work at this, I try 2 remember that my own W was part of that affair. And also, I was part of the marriage that was broken enough that my W chose 2 have an affair.

Bashing only bashes. It doesn't offer any reconstructive suggestions.

-ol' 2long

Is there any particular reason why you would want an apology from this person? I'm like 2long in that the OW did not exist in my life until the A. Everything I know about her is with respect to the A and I have no need to see her in any other light. In fact, I don't want her apology, nor even a hint of a feeling that I might somehow owe her one for all of the vile things I've said about her. As far as I'm concerned, she's responsible for everything evil in this world from the end of my M to global warming (considering she's nothing but a pile of toxic waste herself).

Had she been someone I knew, even my BF, I'm not sure I'd feel any warmer towards her. In fact, I'd probably see her as a 2-faced b**** on top of everything else.

"Here is the deal-e-o for me....
I would not feel 'safe' with Mr Pep if he persisted in bashing the spouse of his A partner.
just me, I guess
Pep
PS .... added afterthought
I would not feel 'safe' if Mr Pep persisted in bashing OW either !
They were equally ugly in their actions. He has no superior adultery excuse simply because he is my spouse"

I agree. I didn't feel safe (or preferred, loved, appreciated, compensated for...) as long as my WH continued to defend the OW (and therefore not get it that I felt she owed me an apology). The adultery my WXH had with a friend's wife ('only EA' if you believe them) was not properly resolved IMHO because I was the only one who understood that the friendship had to end and that it was no longer appropriate for any of them to expect me to pretend nothing happened and for all of us to continue to hang out together. I was successful in stopping the contact pretty much only because we moved away. But there was still some occasional contact with that couple (Christmas cards, etc. and we did see them a coupe of times when we moved back to that state.) Nobody else ever got it why I objected to continued contact. My WH kept making put-down remarks about the BH, but pretending to be friends with him to his face. And my WH would sometimes verbalize sympathy for the OW based on the complaints the OW had told him about her BH. It never occurred to my WH that the OW could have been lying about her BH, or that even if she were telling some truths it was wrong for her to complain to an OM behind her husband's back.

And it's not that I wanted to hear my WH verbalize ugly lies or put-downs of the OW. I wanted both my WH and the OW to acknowledge they had done something and to apologize. I needed to hear my WH admit the OW wasn't perfect so that I could be assured he wasn't still so infatuated with her that he couldn't see that she was just a mere mortal too, complete with imperfections. I didn't want him to bash her - just to stop pretending she was so perfect and innocent. I didn't feel very trusting towards my WH or very loved by him in light of his continued failure to acknowledge the OW's culpability.

And in that particular situation the OW apparently felt entitled to continue having us hang out togegher as couples without having to even apologize to me (not that I would have agreed to that even if she had apologized)! She verbalized some garbage about how I supposeldy didn't appreciate what I had, some more complaints about her BH, and that she didn't know why she got married to her BH (she had only been married a couple of years and I had my own theory about why she married him but kept it to myself... it involved her wanting to steal him from his girlfriend - to 'win' over her), and her opinion that I shouldn't let this stop us all from hanging out together... but no apology or admittance of any wrong-doing on her part. I couldn't even get my WH or the OW to agree that it was wrong for them to be going out to lunch together, complaining to each other about their BS's! So OF COURSE I had no guarantee that they would stop doing that.

I agree about the feuding! That's part of the reason I didn't post my story. I've seen a lot of this on MB. I realize A's are a highly sensitive issue - so I understand some of it. But attacks are not necessary! There are going to be differing opinions and we all have them.

I'm kind of new to MB and I have not posted my story. My D-day was 1/29/07 - almost a year ago - after over 20 years of marriage. It's been a very painful year filled with days you wish you could just run, days of great challenge, days of great breakthrough. I did receive an apology from OW although it was on my voicemail as I chose not to take her call. (I don't care if she apologized or not - I don't believe her, because she didn't take any responsibility for her part - and she did have a part in it.)

Of course this came after lying, denying everything, trying to expose info she thought I didn't know to cause me more pain. However, even in her apology she said it was nothing and never had an A - she was only apologizing to me for any pain I may have experienced. She knew FWH was married, FWH even told OW he loved me . . . she was telling my FWH not to worry that she would talk to me and tell me nothing happened. Her significant other at that time(who she knew for 4 moths) committed suicide. . . . . . . . . .(that's another story) - That's how FWH and OW met - at the funeral, I was there and met her too. Who wouldn't feel sympathy for someone in that situation? Pregnant and loss of signif. other. It didn't come out until later, but apparantly 2 nights before his suicide he slept with his former girlfriend whom he had a child with. So the hours that preceded his suicide were filled with anger from both of the women fighting over him.

Always calling Him under the pretense of her grieving and crying - however, very manipulative. Used her pain for attention. FHW tried reaching out as her significant other who committed suicide was related to his family. Sympathy turned to compassion, compassion to a hug, a hug to an embrace - most of us know the rest of the story. OW was in it for herself, she was bragging to my FWH about all of her affairs.

After this brief A was exposed - FWH ended it. She was very angry. She has been with several others since early last year. I've only heard this through other family members.

She got very mad at me becuase I found out the situation pretty quickly due to FHW cell phone habits. (once it was discovered she reared her ugly head and started threatening FWH.

Sorry . . . rambling . . . . back to the subject of why so few OW ever apologize to the BW. I read an article that was very interesting and there have been references to it here on MB - but I cannot find it on MB now. Here is a link

http://psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=19930501-000027&page=4

it is written by Frank Pittman. In the article he writes Female Philanderers

"There are female philanderers too, and they too are usually the daughters or ex-wives of philanderers. They are angry at men, because they believe all men screw around as their father or ex-husband did. A female philanderer is not likely to stay married for very long, since that would require her to make peace with a man . . . . . . Straying wives are rarely philanderers, but single women who mess around with married men are quite likely to be. Female philanderers prefer to raid other people's marriages, breaking up relationships, doing as much damage as possible, and then dancing off reaffirmed. Like male philanderers, female philanderers put their victims through all of this just to give themselves a sense of gender power."

- IMO they are not sorry!

He also writes:

"Spider Woman

There are women who, by nature romantics, don't quite want to escape their own life and die for love. Instead they'd rather have some guy wreck his life for them. These women have been so recently betrayed by unfaithful men that the wound is still raw and they are out for revenge. A woman who angrily pursues married men is a "spider woman"—she requires human sacrifice to restore her sense of power.

When she is sucking the blood from other people's marriages, she feels some relief from the pain of having her own marriage betrayed. She simply requires that a man love her enough to sacrifice his life for her. She may be particularly attracted to happy marriages, clearly envious of the woman whose husband is faithful and loving to her. Sometimes it isn't clear whether she wants to replace the happy wife or just make her miserable.

The women who are least squeamish and most likely to wreak havoc on other people's marriages are victims of some sort of abuse, so angry that they don't feel bound by the usual rules or obligations, so desperate that they cling to any source of security, and so miserable that they don't bother to think a bit of the end of it."

- IMO it's all about them, they don't care. I am sure there are other reasons and it all depends upon the nature of the affair.

OK . . that's my opinion

there is much more to this article and is worth a read!



[color:"#666666"] [/color] [color:"#666666"] [/color] [color:"blue"] [/color]

"Is there any particular reason why you would want an apology from this person? I'm like 2long in that the OW did not exist in my life until the A."

You know I really do realize it is very unlikely that I will ever get an apology from her and that I can't base my recovery on getting one. Also, it's not like I value her opinion her need her approval either. But it's one thing to understand all that intellectually... but there is sometimes still this nagging irritation that she goes about town pretending to be such a good-girl-victim while failing to apologize to me and my daughters (or even stopping the ugly rumors she spread about me).


"Everything I know about her is with respect to the A and I have no need to see her in any other light."

Well, with this particular OW, I guess because this town isn't huge, she's lived here all her life so she knows lots of folks, and she is trying to do tons of good deeds (compensation of sorts or just more positive PR for herself?) I am occasionally confronted with glowing news about her...

"In fact, I don't want her apology, nor even a hint of a feeling that I might somehow owe her one for all of the vile things I've said about her."

Well, in my case the only 'bad' stuff I've said about her was basically just the facts, which isn't even considered 'bad' by those who buy her 'good-girl-victim' status.

"As far as I'm concerned, she's responsible for everything evil in this world from the end of my M to global warming (considering she's nothing but a pile of toxic waste herself)."

LOL I'm not wanting to blame her for anything more than she actually did; I always tell my daughters that EVERYONE has some good things about them and some bad things too. It just irks me that she's going around town portraying herself as such a victim of my WXH when the reality is she was a coconspirator in destroying my marriage. And she has taken zero responsibility for acknowledging and apologizing for the damage she inflicted on us. If I had dones what she did, and if somebody's kids were as harmed by my selfish, sinful choices, I would be so ashamed I would probably move away instead of atempting to flaunt my 'goodness' and 'victim-status' around town!

"Had she been someone I knew, even my BF, I'm not sure I'd feel any warmer towards her. In fact, I'd probably see her as a 2-faced b**** on top of everything else."

I certainly agree with that! One of my WXH's OW was a close friend and I never wanted anything more to do with her. IMHO the worst betrayals are the inside jobs, committed by those you should be able to trust to care abotu you and not want to hurt you. Traitors of the worst kind.

Apologies from OP are worthless without sincerity and the actions to prove it.

For example, apologizing, but continuing contact with anyone who is closely aligned with the WS/BS does not indicate a remorseful OP.

For *me*, an apology would amount to nothing until xOW removed herself from my life entirely. That means should would back off the R she established with my IL's and respect MY FAMILY and the fact that my FWH chose his family, not her. I have no problem with OC having an R with his grandmother but am not ok with xOW being part of that contact.

My mother has Alzheimers. Essentially I don't have much of my mother left. I used to close to my MIL. Now I have no mother figure in my life and my children have no grandmother. Truthfully seeing MIL's behavior over all this and me being thrown under the bus by blood relatives of my children, it is probably no loss. It doesn't feel that way though and that b*tch feels justified in what she did simply to enmesh herself in FWH's family.

I agree with this in general, but recognize that there are circumstances that are extenuating.

Infidelity, sadly enough, can set up a chain of consequences that cannot be avoided and end up sometimes having to be endured.

For instance, infidelity all too often occurs within families. BILs and SILs being the most common. In cases such as that, it is understandable that the impacted BSs will go NC.

However, there are aunts and uncles, cousins, siblings, grandparents and so forth that may not want to ostracize the waywards. That sort of choice would become even more difficult for the extended family if the wayward spouses changed their ways, returned to their spouses and worked toward recovery.

What do you think should be done in cases such as this that happen so often?

The OW in my case, barring a miracle, would never render a sincere apology for what she's done.

As I've mentioned before, she has been with a married man already. Her excuse for that adultery was "I don't know what I was thinking, he wasn't even good looking".

(Those were nearly her exact words.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Currently she believes she is "in love" with my WH and he says he feels the same way. She told me that marriage is meaningless if you aren't in love and thus she was justified in trying to destroy my family because, according to her, it was already broken.

In the beginning of their relationship, she repeatedly told my WH how bad she felt for cheating with him. However it was obviously not bad enough to stop.

I am positive that this was just a way to manipulate my WH into believing she was a "good person" since "good people" feel bad when they hurt others. But again, if she were sincere, she would have ended the relationship before it got too far.

I really feel that this is just the type of person she is.

My greatest hope at this point is to never see or hear from her again.

There are a number of things that the extended family could do without ostracizing the wayward relatives.

They should make known their disapproval of the adultery, both to the WS and to the OP, and not enable the affair or the justifications. Sadly, though,there will be those who think that the affair "just happened" or that they "couldn't help it", or some on the WS side might even blame the BS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

They should certainly not pass on information about the WS and BS to the OP (or vice versa), nor should they set things up so that all three parties are at family gatherings together...to "make up", so to speak.

In cases where the BS is the one demonized by the WS' family, the WS should do whatever is necessary to protect the BS, including ending all contact with the family. If the BS family refuses respect the decision to reconcile the marriage and treat the FWS respectfully, the BS should end contact with the family. However, it is normal that the BS family should be leery of the FWS, because they also need to have their trust rebuilt. Understandably, the BS' family would not want the BS to be hurt again.

The family should understand that the MARRIAGE comes before their family, and help protect the marriage in any way that the BS deems necessary.

That said, faithful follower's situation is a nightmare. She has a beautiful son who happens to be disabled, and the MiL has rejected him in favor of the healthy OC, all because the OW has cruelly pursued a relationship with faithful follower's in-laws. It's as if the OW decided that if she couldn't have faithful follower's husband, she would take his family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

That is very, very sad. But I can't help wondering if an assumption is being made as to how much of a role the OW truly played in MIL's actions. Certainly I understand that if there were no OW, there would be no OC to cause conflict. But it sounds as if FF's MIL was more than willing to discard one child in favor of the other, quite possibly due to his disability. An ethical, kind individual would not have behaved that way. But someone who has an inherent prejudice against the disabled would.

Hopefully FF is able to surround her son with good people who value him. If his grandmother does not, the loss is hers.

PK

Meremortal, I grew up in a small town and fully understand these sort of dynamics. The thing you have to learn and believe (because it's true) is that people really do form their own opinions, regardless of what the gossip-mill is spinning out. She can do whatever she wants to try to redeam herself but everyone already knows what she did. The less you let it bother you (on the outside), the more people will come to respect you and eventually form the opinion that jeez, she really was a tramp if she feels she has to suck up to the whole town for redemption. Even the most uneducated, redneck hillbilly hicks will figure this out (trust me that's what I grew up with).

You can only be responsible and held accountable for your own actions.

The one thing I have always taught my D17, who has endured some pretty bad mudslinging, is to always take the high road. In the end, that is what people will remember about you - that you remained dignified, calm, and smart; and that you did not participate in the mudslinging, namecalling, or tearing people down. You will be the one respected, while the other beats their head against the wall and only serves to ruin their own reputation.

Hey PK, long time no speak. How are ya?
Oh yeah, I give equal blame to MIL for her horrid behavior and bad choices here as well as FWH for opening that door by taking xOW to see his mommy when the A first started. (excuse me while I vomit). Introducing my sweet innocent niece and nephew to my husbands ACTIVE ADULTERY partner (the A is long over now) is the most shocking choice my MIL and SIL made and my reason for NC with them. However, I do have it in the xOW's own email to me that she did this on purpose in case the A ended and FWH ended up with me. She wanted "insurance" that OC would have a relationship with FWH's family. She even told me she wants MIL and SIL to have custody if something should happen to her. This is all done in the name of keeping OC away from big, bad, evil me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

not entirely accurate

the loss also is suffered by FF's children .... who miss having a grandma who loves them

and when vulnerable & valuable & lovable children suffer this loss .... the mama bear does not like it much

Ostracism of waywards helps them find bottom sooner. It's a generous gift to give someone heck-bent on self destruction and other destruction.

If the waywards "change their ways", they are no longer wayward. WELCOME BACK to the family !

[color:"red"] ATTENTION FAITHFUL FOLLOWER[/color]

I just emailed you my latest 'jenus' idea regarding your situation

it is brilliant, if I do say so myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I R jenus and sigh-kick !

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />