My story...<P>History:<BR>Over the years W has spent more and more time outside home, partly work, partly things for our 2 daughters (Girl Scouts, church youth group, etc.) So much time that things at home suffered - housekeeping, our relationship. My pleas to slow down and spend more time at home fell on deaf ears. <P>Last fall in desperation I did a dumb thing. I wrote her a note saying I didn't see how things could go on, that if thnings didn't change I would leave in the spring. She did<BR>start making some changes, so I thought we were on the mend. Boy was I wrong...<P>Last 9 mths:<BR>Church activities took over her life. W held several leadership positions at our small church. The other Youth leader was an unhappily married man. Projects they were working on (for the kids, of course) had them spending lots of time together. I warned W that this was a potential danger - to no avail.<P>This July:<BR>W asked what were my plans - was I leaving or staying? I said I thought things were<BR>improved and I was not going anywhere, why? Well, she admitted she and OM had expressed their "affection" for each other. No sex. She wanted to know where we stood. I was stunned but not too surprised. She said the fall letter made her stop loving me (in spite of the fact that she seemed to be making efforts to change all winter). <P>Besides seeing each other a lot, much comunication has been carried on on-line. I found some files on the computer which contained chats. There was much more than just "mutual affection" here. No evidence of sex, but clearly an emotional affair with lies to both spouses, soul-mate talk, wishful thinking about sex, future marriage, etc. This was my wakeup call. I asked what she needed me to differently and I started immediately. I asked if she was willing to change also. She said she wasn't sure.<P>I forced the affair to become public knowledge at the church. They were both asked to resign all their positions, advised to seek counseling, not to communicate with each other. I confronted her with the computer file and the lies. She got mad at me of course.<P>Current status:<BR>We are seeing a counselor. It has helped me a lot. She is being defensive and blocking.<BR>I bought and read all the Harley books (She won't). I'm learning all I can about how to have a better relationship. I have made MAJOR changes in my life. I give her affection throughout the day, tell her I love her. She accepts my affection, but gives none back, can't say she loves me because she doesn't "love me as a husband". No sex for 6 wks. She won't cut off her relationship with OM. Her Christian beliefs prevent her from divorcing (she admits she<BR>has studied scripture to find a loophole but couldn't). When I ask her if she thinks she can fall in love with me again she says "God can do miracles". Great! It will take a miracle. I ask her out on dates (no answers), try to spend time with her (she'd rather not). She says she wants to give our marriage a chance, but she seems to want it to happen without her participation. (That would take a miracle!)<P>I read message threads about the healing process taking years. Truly I don't know how I can withstand this pain for that long. EVERY day is a struggle with deep depression and hopelessness. Other people on the MB site seem to have the patience of Job - under worse circumstances than I <BR>face. Sometimes I wonder if I am nuts for tyring to save our marriage. Unless she changes her ways (which she shows no inclination of doing) it would be masochism. <P>So, help me out here folks. Give me the benefit of your wisdom and experience.<BR>

Keep reading the books and make the changes you need to make. Obviously your letter to wife to change herself last fall didn't have the desired effect. You can only control yourself, not another person. You can make a safe envionment for growth, recovery and love.<P>If you like I can recommend a few more Christian Marriage books that helped me.<P>Is your counselor Christian? Since your wife is still involved emotionally with OM, it is hard to get through. However, her notion that she is following God's will by not divorcing is plain wrong. If you follow biblical principals, marriage is a lot of hard work by both partners. She is not honoring the vows she made before God if she doesn't participate in the marriage. Pointing that out to her may not mean much right now, but if the councelor can work with her to see that, eventually she might be able feel it herself.<P>Remember you are on the same marriage team, although it does not seem like it right now. You need to work together to recover and thrive. Think of it like half your team is out with an injury right now, and you need to find a way to carry the ball by yourself until she heals. You are still on the same team, right now you are the only one on the field...but at least she's on the bench.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hello and welcome the craziness.<P>Well, I don't know where to start. You have a difficult situation, although it sounds to me like you are in a whole lot better situation than most of the people that frequent this sight.<P>I will give some opinions of mine which are based on generalities I have come to believe in based on my own experience and a lot of what I've observed around here. So if I use the term "you" and "her" or "she", I mean "in general", although I think there is a good possibility it may apply to you also. Some of the stuff is definitely specific though.<P>First off, the letter probably wasn't a good idea. It's not nice to make demands of people. If you wanted to spend more time with her, the onus really was on you to try to arrange dates, etc. We can't expect people to change because we say "I need you to change". Instead, influencing people by finding something halfway to what they also need is the best. <P>For instance, if I want to see my girlfriend more, I need to phone her up and make a date. If I want to really win points, I have to take her to the (yuck!) ballet. Sure, I'm snoozing and would rather be in a pub, but she's a happy girl and is thus willing to go to the pub afterwards. For some reason we forget these things once we are married. (Yes, the ladies do it to.) We start to try to tell the other person what to do to make us happy. (Even while dating actually. It's amazing how easy it is to start to take someone for granted and "expect" certain behavior".)<P>And the house stuff is, well, silly on your part. You might want to do some kissing up there. If you don't like the mess, (come on all you women out there, say it with me now) YOU CLEAN IT UP!!! Realistically, you are the one who is bothered by it. If she didn't like it, she would clean it up.<P>But, that said, she probably didn't stop loving you because of the letter. People don't usually make a choice like that until the have "options". In other words, people don't make choices until they have to. Chances are, she "stopped loving you " because she fell in love with someone else. The relationship probably had a really good chance of recovery until then. The letter may have helped her decide to get involved with this other fellow, but that's probably it.<P>As far as that new relationship goes, you need to use kid gloves. Any attempt to "tell her what to do" or even ask her nicely or even suggest, will be treated with rebellion and anger. She needs to sort this out for herself. It's a rough feeling letting somebody go to do this, because you can never really be sure what they are thinking or whether or not they are coming back. In most cases they don't, but some do.<P>The stuff about "making the relationship generally known at church" and all that was a big, big [censored]. Probably the biggest mistake I see in the whole thing. How embarrassing. She now has no way to redeem her character with these people, so she may decide it doesn't warrant trying. It is much more likely she will decide to leave the church as opposed to trying to win back her reputation. So, by ostracizing her, you have probably lost your best ally, which would have been the sort of "peer pressure" a church environment provides and her desire to be respected by those peers. She has already apparently lost that beyond repair.<P>If I were you, I would switch to an unconditional support mode. Especially with the people from church. You are going to have to go in her camp. Start talking about what a great person she is, how much she loves her children, how the whole thing was overblown by childish behavior on your part, and how she really is the best person to lead the youth group or what ever. Stuff about how everyone faces difficulties, we are only human after all, (sinners in the church camp), and that people will benefit from watching her overcome her challenges (Satan, if you like).<P>Personally I don't know if you can do it. It sounds to me like her reputation is already shot, and she is going to blame you. Since the other man is in the same boat, she may turn to him for support. Now that they are church outsiders, the moral influence may also be dissipated. You have some major back peddling to do if you ask me.<P>Oh, and stop asking her to change. If you don't like her the way she is, let her go. You can only change yourself in to who you want to be. Becoming who she wants to be is her job. If you are a "7 habits" person, it's called your "Sphere of Influence". She is in your "Sphere of Concern". You don't really have a right to control her, even though you are very interested in what she does. But you do have a right to control yourself.<P><p>[This message has been edited by nonplused (edited October 13, 1999).]

Thanks for your response FHL. Yes, it is a Christian counselor (in fact he is a pastor). Has has tried to get through to her, but she still has her defenses up. Her view of counseling seems to match her view of our marriage - she is bound by duty to "be there". She is a very strong passive-aggressive type. The more someone tries to make her do/see something, the more she resists.<P>I'm not sure I can agree that we are on the same team at this time. We should be, but that's not how it seems. We are in the same game, but she is still playing for the other team or at least cheering for them.

WOW Nonplused! I agree with everything you said.<P>2sad4words....Nonplused has some good advice here.<P>Good luck on your marital recovery. You've come to the right place to vent and for advice. In addition, seek the help of a therapist. I think that will help too.

I am by no means a person of wisdom to be answering you, but can tell you the process of recovery is very slow..at least to the betrayed. It has been since July 31, 1999 that I found out of my H's affair and to this date it has not gotten any easier! The tears come daily and the mental images are so constant. He assures me it is over and we have to put this cancerous affair behind us...but I can't seem to forget as easily as him!<P>After reading Dr. Harleys book and reading the posts on here daily it is absolutely necessary for her to break all contact with the OM. You have started in the right direction with counseling and maybe soon she will be able to open up truthfully with the couselor. All you can do at this point is to keep telling her your love for her is strong (if it is) and continue to pray that she will see that she is wrong. <P>You said she was looking for a loophole in the Bible in regards to marriage. His word is very clear and she is just grasping for ideas. I know Satan had hold of my H during this affair, but believe that God has brought him to his senses! It saddens me that so many affairs are beginning within the church family, which is one place that should be safe from sin, but daily I hear of this happening! <P>I don't post very often on here as we are still in recovery and I don't want to burden people with my daily whining..which I know gets old really fast. You can find so many answers here and SUPPORT. My thoughts and prayers are with you as they are for everyone else going through this hell. Please keep posting and best of luck.

Nonplused - some clarifications:<P>First, I know I have screwed up in a BIG way. I take full responsibility for the damage I did to my marriage. Oh if only I had found this site BEFORE last fall. I dealt with our problems in a pitiful desperate way and caused enormous harm. No doubt.<P>Dating? I tried many times to "get on her schedule" Every activity that bumped me off was legtimate on its own. But the net effect was that I was never on the calendar.<P>Cleaning? I am the helper type. I won't bother to list the things I do, but my wife is an extreme packrat which makes some types of cleaning very difficult to do.<P>Church. I missppoke. My wife insisted that what she and this guy were doing was not wrong because it didn't involve sex. Yet they were the youth group leaders and "role models" for all the kids at church. In their "private" communications they admitted the hypocrisy to each other, but to nobody else. I felt what they were doing was wrong and was going to talk to the pastor about it. My W warned OM and he went to the Board of Deacons first. It was not exactly "public". But it did become common knowledge because there obviously had to be a reason why they were both resigning all their positions. The church did waht it felt was its duty to try to protect the marriages involved and not appear to condone the behavior. Rather than ostracizing, the church family has been very supportive.<P>Stop asking her to change? We both did things to harm our marriage. If Dr. Harleys books are not about both people changing then what are they about? True, I can only change myself. I am making every effort to do just that. But unilateral change won't fix anything. I am willing to be the one to go first - have been doing this for two months. I am a better person for it, and I don't regret it. But I can't repair our marriage myself.<P>Thanks you Nonplused for your brutal honesty. That is one of the best things about this site.

OK...its annoying when your team cheers for other team...but she is still on your bench, physically if not emotionally. That's a start.<P>Obviously you (meaning both of you) have huge communication problems. Dropping a bomb like your letter and not checking up on it for months? Her anger must have built and built. No excuse for looking outside of marriage, but it was a factor.<P>Have you told her how sorry you are? I mean without buts or excuses...but how you were just plain wrong and you would do things differently if you could go back in time. Forgive me to list these things, but these are the things that strike me.<P>The letter without follow-up or loving communication.<P>Even worse...threatening to leave. Was that biblically based on your part? What were you thinking? You threatened abandonment. I can not even begin to tell you how that would feel.<P>Making the affair public knowledge. Getting the Pastor or elders quietly involved in loving confrontation is one thing...telling the whole church was defamation of character.<P>She has a whole lot to be angry about. I am no way defending her emotional affair, but her lack of participation may be based on residual anger about these things as well as emotional feelings for OM.<P>My recommendation is you leave the church and give yourself a fresh start in another church. That would help cut ties with OM, she would not have to deal with people judging her and you would not have the advantage of looking like the "good" spouse. It would just be a more level playing field.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

OK...sorry for misinterpreting the church confrontation. What you did and the church did was appropriate. Although it is nice they are supportive, I still think you may need to start fresh.<P>Yes, two people can change, but I think you are discounting the value of the dynamics of effects of one person changing. A relationship can not remain the same when one person changes. Your changes will create change within the marriage and eventually change within her (hopefully).<P>And no matter how right you are, you can still only control yourself, so keep at it.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

2sad4words:<P>I can imagine why you did the things you did, even though they may have not been the right thing to do. In my past, I've handled some things the wrong way because I didn't know any better. At that time, you didn't have this website and the tools (books, helpful advice) needed to guide you. But, now that you have it, you will be able to work on your marriage in a non-lovebusting way. Good luck to you.

FHL:<P>As I said, this was my wake-up call. I'm glad my eyes are now open, but I wish it had happened some other way.<P>Yes, I have apologized to her - from my heart. And I am backing up the sincerity of the aplogy by consistently acting in more positive ways. All I want now is to work together with her on this. <P>Starr Dazz:<P>Yes, it is sad that this happens so much in the church. Our church has learned a lesson from this - one person should only be allowed to hold one office at a time. Our church is small and mostly elderly. Finding people to take on responsibilities is hard. So my W and the OM took on multiple roles - with the best of intentions. But neither they nor the church could see that over-involvement could be bad for the families involved.<BR>

You are headed in the right direction. Now do what you can do and put the rest in the Lord's hands.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

2Sad4Words,<P>Sorry for the misunderstanding. Of course I can only go by the information I had, some of which I probably didn't read correctly, and my natural tendency (I think we all do it) is to try to read in the missing pieces. That process isn't always successful.<P>That aside, I disagree with your last point. I believe you can change a marriage by yourself. I think you can change your whole world by yourself, simply by changing yourself. Don't worry about her, once she sees the real changes in you, she may be inspired to let her guard down and maybe make a few changes herself. If not, oh well. You will be better off, your children will be better off, and the people around you will be better off. It will be to her to decide whether she wants to be one of those people, but I'm guessing so.<P>It takes a lot of guts to go first. But the personal rewards are worth it. (So long as we are measuring our own personal development.)<BR>

Forgot to mention the most ironic point. It was snooping through the chat file that lead me here! <P>OM's wife had steered him to the "How an Affair Should End" article. He in turn mentioned it to my W. They both read it and decided they didn't think they wanted it to end. <P>Seeing this got me curious, so I came here. The Lord does work in mysterious ways!

Yes, He does.<P>Hope you stay and find this place supportive.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13