Quote from Mr. W:
I've read here for several years and I don't recall reading any regular ongoing poster who has advocated some sort of shortcut that is in contradiction to Dr. Harley's methods.

Have you?

Isn't recovery something to be determined by the couple in the marriage? When it comes to whether or not someone is recovered, how do you or anyone else get to determine when that is on an anonymous forum?

For ex. I have no idea whether or not you and your wife are recovered. I don't know what goes on in your life on a daily basis, whether or not you follow Harley's methods of POJA, have eliminated independent behaviors, strive to spend 15 hours together every week, follow the goal of shared recreational companionship, diligently work to meet each other's ENs, practice radical honesty, etc. Nor does anyone know the actual quality of my marriage.

For all I or anyone else on an anonymous forum knows you and your spouse could be the epitome of Marriage Builders' methods or you might be its antithesis.

I know that many folks on MB have even had lunches and get togethers in various locales at different times, but even in an actual meeting, the ability to judge the success of your (or anyone else's) marriage and/or recovery is limited. People can put on a public face if they choose and hide their reality for a time. Even knowing both spouses in the marriage is no guarantee that the status of their marriage or their recovery is successful. That knowing is even more limited on an internet forum.

So, recovery isn't based on whether or not someone has met your criteria - not is lack of recovery based on criteria you think is necessary - recovery is determined by the two people in the marriage.

Secondly, people have differing religious beliefs. Some have no religious beliefs at all. I don't know upon what you are basing the "still possess the booty of all the sin" while lumping up a child with money and pics as if they have any equivalency.

What a married couple does with any child conceived outside the marriage, is between that couple and whatever agreement they reach. You nor I, or anyone else on this forum is in a position of telling them what they *have* to do in regards to this issue.

Quote from Mr. W:
Whether or not you can see it is irrelevant. That is an issue for the couple themselves.

Where in Dr. Harley's material does he instruct the repentant wayward to contact the OPS and apologize? If we are discussing what is and isn't recovery, do you have a list from Dr. Harley to which you are referring? If so, can you post a link or book title?

I've noticed an interesting concept that seems to be promulgating throughout several threads by different people. References to stolen goods, theft, booty, the necessity of apology to the OPS, etc seem to have proliferated recently - is there an online article, book title or monthly email in which Dr. Harley discusses this concept?

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And at any point during the search for recovery and reconciliation of your marriage - did you ever think it would be appropriate to follow your husband about in his daily life while dropping hints here and yon in front of complete strangers in an attempt to shame and manipulate him into doing so publicly anywhere and everywhere he went?

Is shame and manipulation and innuendo considered either a MB method or a method that mature individuals should use againt other individuals?

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Let me get this straight - you think someone has to confess their "sins" ********edit********** to the whole forum?

When did this forum become the church, when did it become God and when did so few get appointed as the Inquisitors? I thought we had moved past that mindset and I find it interesting in a scary sort of way to see just how thin the veneer is over the same beliefs and attitudes that we publicly pronounce so medieval.

Well, let's go right for the historical actions...

**edit********

Excellent points, graplin.

At the heart of the problem, IMHO, is a total lack of humility on the part of those who would set the recovery requirements for others.

PK

*******edit**********
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You know this charade is really getting tiresome. Do those of you who are doing this realize how obvious you are being? If you were trying for subtlety, it is not working.

People are under no obligation to you or anyone else on this forum to tell anything.

The Harleys have made it clear that people can post on here who don't even agree with Marriage Builders methods. We've all seen anti-MB advice offered here.

So, why some of you seem to be on some Crusade to attack someone based on some secret knowledge you think you have is beyond me. Why are you participating in a campaign of insinuating slander? Is there a popularity contest running somewhere in the background that must be won at all costs?

*YOU CAN POST HERE WITHOUT AGREEING WITH THE MARRIAGE BUILDER'S METHODS.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU WERE A WAYWARD SPOUSE.

YOU CAN POST HERE EVEN WHILE YOU ARE A WAYWARD SPOUSE.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU WERE A BETRAYED SPOUSE.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU ARE A BETRAYED SPOUSE.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU HAVE NEVER SUFFERED THROUGH INFIDELITY.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU ARE MARRIED.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU ARE SINGLE.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU'VE BEEN MARRIED ONCE.

YOU CAN POST HERE IF YOU'VE BEEN MARRIED MORE THAN ONCE.

The MEMBERS of this forum are not required to make some sort of public penance on anything, past, present of future
**************edit************

*caps for emphasis not for shouting.

I'm glad I wasn't hallucinating...I posted the exact thing on the affair marriages post earlier this morning..

I believe you both are on the right track here. You and graplin are more erudite than I, maybe you all will be listened to. Good luck!

******* your scolding, sanctimonious SCREEDS and CALL OUTS are becoming very TIRESOME and getting old very quick. Scold, admonish, lecture, scold, admonish, lecture, scold, admonish, lecture, Every day it is some new SCOLD against board members you have targeted. Your screeds are getting old very quick.

First off, ***** let me point out that you are confusing marital recovery with PERSONAL recovery. They are different things in the context spoken here. Dr. Harley, in his professional capacity as a psychologist, addresses MARITAL recovery. He does not address personal recovery so you are comparing apples to oranges. Personal recovery has nothing to do with MB standards, in other words, because it is not even addressed here.

When folks speak about personal recovery, they are not doing so in terms of Marriage Builders standards.

That being said, it usually doesn't take a rocket scientist to be able to discern the traits that differentiate a truly recovered person from a non-recovered person. ["you will know them by their fruits"] True recovery would reflect a repentant heart and true remorse for one's victims.

A non recovered person would demonstrate none of that. A person who still blames his victim and is arrogant, haughty and defensive about his crimes is obviously not repentant, and NOT recovered. Scoffing at making amends to one's victim is a sign of an unrecovered person.

It doesn't take a psychologist to be able to discern true recovery. A little common sense will do it.


And sure, sometimes folks are so deceitful. [not "authentic"] But most folks know what it looks like when they see it.

Melody, I don't disagree with you. But I don't see anyone doing this here on the forum. ??

PK

PK, I don't know of anyone top of mind; I was using this as an example.

What started this subject is one BS on this board received a HEARTFELT apology from the OW who had an affair with her husband. That was cited as a demonstration of true remorse, true recovery. It doesn't take a psychologist to discern the difference. Nor is there any reason to NOT discuss the difference.

I don't understand this hostile attempt to SHOUT DOWN and BULLY anyone who wants to discuss the difference, especially on a board that deals DAILY with recovery, repentance, etc. It is a very relevant subject to this board.

Call out threads like this are SO HOSTILE, that they are prohibited on most forums. ****** for someone who screeches ENDLESSLY about board conflict, it sure seems you sure do instigate MUCH of it here.

Do you think I might have schoolmarm issues?

OTOH, you do realize that I have never to my recollection started a thread. Nor does this one have anyone's name in the title. ******EDIT***********
*****************EDIT*******************

*******************EDIT***************.



So you are saying then that Dr. Harley doesn't discuss "personal recovery"? If Dr. Harley doesn't address it and it isn't part of MB, why is there such a plethora of posters declaring that some of the members here ought to be 'fessing up?

Do you realize the dichotomy in which you have placed yourself with your words above? Dr. Harley, the professional addresses marriage recovery - so you are saying that Dr. Harley has written nothing about personal recovery?

Is this the "Personal Recovery" forum? I checked the Main Index and I don't see a "Personal Recovery" forum.

That's very convenient for the few who have decided they have been chosen to tell the rest of us who is and isn't "personally" recovered, because that allows them to make up their own guidelines as they go along.


Well, when the words "arrogant and haughty and defensive" appear, the people currently being targeted don't come to mind. YMMV.

What is your judgment of someone who says they are no longer wayward but who responds in anger if anyone in passing and without insult references her/his infidelity?

Based on your assessment above, we can only conclude that they are not recovered or they wouldn't respond in anger. Is that correct?

Melody, it seemed to me that people were not just discussing notes of apology and their virtue as indicators of true remorse and recovery. That would have made for a good discussion, one that I would be interested in.

Instead, it appeared that some posters were using the discussion as a springboard to make thinly veiled accusations against a particular poster. Due to the peculiar and roundabout nature of their approach, their posts appeared to have very little to do with the topic and everything to do with trying to slam a particular poster in a passive aggressive manner.

Perhaps if the posters in question hadn't been so disingenuous, I might have understood their point. As it was, the only thing that came across was "I have a secret about someone, and if you all only knew...".

Personally, I am a fan of the straightforward, honest approach, facts rather than innuendo. Then I can make up my own mind about whether it would constitute recovery - for me.

PK

No, actually that WASN'T what started this subject. And if you have actually read Mere's thread you would see that what you are saying is incorrect. I responded to Mere and pointed out that my posts there didn't reference her at all.
In fact, you can look at what I have quoted above and you will note that there isn't anything there from Mere.

If you haven't read the posts I did respond to, perhaps you can do so in order that your responses here are actually in response to what I have posted. Your responses to me are either done from ignorance due to lack of reading of what I actually posted or it is due to your own personal unique interpretation that has little if any correlation to my posts.



If shouting and bullying was going on you of all people should be the first in line to understand it - it is a procedure with which you personally are all to familiar.

If I had wanted to be hostile and close down Mere's thread, I would continue posting there as some participants often do even after being asked not to.

Therefore, if you have something relevant to what I have actually posted on this thread, then please respond. If you instead want to post about a totally irrelevant topic of your own creation complete with spurious accusations on this thread, then I suggest you start your own.

None.

Scold, admonish, attack, scold, admonish, attack, admonish, attack, scold, admonish, attack, scold, admonish, attack….. **********EDIT**********. You scold, admonish and demonize contributing, productive board members. sigh....

Seriously, if you cannot tell the difference between honest remorse and a lack thereof, that simply speaks to your impaired powers of discernment and nothing else. The goal here seems to demonize folks who admit they can discern true remorse as if doing so is somehow BAD. There isn't a damn thing wrong with discussing the signs of true remorse and your aversion to it is your own personal problem. You won't be able to shut people up from such a discussion and I can't imagine why you would try.

Why not give the scolding act a rest, *** Give us a break. Get off your scolding soapbox and dive in and start helping folks here instead of causing endless conflict. good grief....

***********EDIT*********
Good grief, if someone is "hinting" at something let them hint. SO WHAT? I much prefer "hinting" than this endless scolding, whining and hostility. A call out thread and these never ending SCOLDS is much more divisive than that would ever be.

******EDIT******. You have become the very thing you have been accusing others of for months. Haven't we had enough board conflict without you constantly seeking ways to ADD TO IT?

I still don't know and really don't care what the hub-bub was on that other thread. I know Graplin has brought it to my attention and at least a few others that were oblivious to it before then...but,

I do think it is okay to look at a "recovered" marriages and offer an opinion. People offer up their opinions about my situation all the time...so what....it doesn't change what I do every day. There are some "marriages" here that I would never consider recovered(and I personally would feel imprisoned in...and suspect that being "whipped" and afraid to reach out to have their own needs met results in surrender). I suspect that if Dr. Harley ever attempted to use those situations as recovery examples, most would question the effectiveness of his methods. But, hey to each his own.

It isn't up to you, Graplin, to decide for others what they can question or offer opinion on(and even if you feel it is, I imagine you would likely be ignored by those that feel otherwise). Just like it isn't up to me to decide for another poster what recovery is or isn't. Offering up an opinion does not change the reality of their marriage...recovered or not.

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Sc, I and many others do not see Mel that way. Let me ask you...what have you done on these boards that you can call out a poster like Mel? I am sure that you have a lot to offer here..perhaps if you spent less time complaining about a valuable poster like Mel, you might get to it instead of starting threads with the title of



Gee, how long did that one take to get locked down by the moderators?

If you don't like Mel's method of posting...put her on ignore. Simple solution. But I guarantee you that you will miss out on some valuable stuff delivered in a straight forward manner.

ETA...perhaps you should follow you own advice from another thread.

Mel gives out TOUGH LOVE.

SHE was one of my GUARDIAN ANGELS..seemed like she was always there for me..just when I needed her...

She may not have said what I WANTED to hear..but she said what I NEEDED to hear..

You have to admire a busy woman who VOLUNTEERS their time here when they don't have to do that...

Of course Mel's not perfect.

None of us is..we have our triggers and our days...

But I will FOREVER be APPRECIATIVE for the difference that MEL has made in MY LIFE...

The hub-bub is the obvious targeting of a forum member in a concerted, obviously orchestrated group effort, carried forward by several posters across several threads.

Evidently something occurred off this forum which now several people have made abundantly clear in a dishonest, leading way that they would like to see made public.

Reminds me of another Monty Python quote: "Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, know what I mean?" It started as a "if you knew what I know" assertion by 1 person. Then it began cropping up in slight variations, with fingers pointed at some unspecified person but each slanderous "hint" given becomes more pointed and more malicious. It's as if there is a need to work up the courage to just come right out and tell the "secret".

The buildup for a big finale - and that finale is the desire to succeed in defaming someone for no other reason than malice.

You (rhetorical you) can only keep claiming that it is all being done for the protection of the newbies, or the betrayed spouses, or the purity of Marriage Builders so long, before people start realizing that it isn't about protection or purity, it is about power, intimidation, control of those people who don't quite line up with your own personal preferences. Hence the recent denouncements of long-time posters who have contributed mightily over the years when they didn't tow some imaginary line that the rest of us aren't privy to.

At the risk of setting you off, you yourself have posted about your personal knowledge of the fact that some people on this forum have on occasion grouped together with the purpose to shut a chosen participant down, drive them off, discredit them - whatever euphemism you want to use. There have been at least two other posters who have also written of their personal knowledge of such coordinated activities.

Three people. Three people who weren't buddies. Three people with divergent views and participation. Three people with different backgrounds.

Three people who said the same thing.

"In the mouth of two or three witnesses a matter is established." This is a tenet in both Old and New Testaments.

And the evidence that confirms what those three people said has been abundant.

And it is clear who the latest target is.

I choose not to avert my eyes, and pretend that it isn't going on.

*********************EDIT**************