Harley suggests that since there is nothing to be done about the past, it is better to look ahead. How can you meet each other's needs and protect your marriage from here out, etc. This seems like a simple solution, and even an attractive one, but is it smart? Another book I'm reading, Torn Asunder, indicates that is is beneficial and healthy to discover the "message of the affair" in order to avoid future affairs. This requires looking at the WHY of the affair and working through it. So what is best? Leave it alone or work through it? What have you all chosen to do? What has worked and what hasn't?

You must work through it. Ignoring it and sweeping it under the rug and trying to pretend it isn't there only lets it lie there and stink until it drives you both out of the house.

I believe there is much in *Surviving an Affair* about this. You can also read over at the In Recovery board on this forum

Good luck-
Mulan

I agree, but one thing I would add, is that it can be very painful if the WS isn't "ready". To go back and re-hash everything in order to protect the M from future problems is necessary, but it must wait until the fog of the WS is gone. Otherwise, the BS gets hurt all over again listening to the bogus justifications from the wayward.

If you have reached that point, then talking about eveything should be very helpful for both of you. That is where W2S and I are now. A couple months ago, I was stuck in justification land and saw everything he was trying to work out with me about what had happened as him just "dragging up the past to hurt me" and all that junk. Now, it is actually very theraputic for us to talk about many things that happened and what we can do to safeguard our M in the future. That's why I say wait till the fog is gone.

Are you able to call the Harleys? I'm sure they can help you work through everything beautifully! Wish we could afford it, and when we can, we will!!

I tend to agree, but my WH wants to "let the past die" and focus on better communication and more willingness to meet each other's needs. He gets frustrated at the "backsliding" we do in counseling, but I think it is necessary. He says I'll never understand the "why" because there is no good reason for a selfish affair. I'm not even sure he KNOWS the reason entirely. And he doesn't seem to wnat to explore it.

He asked how long I think we'll need counseling. I said, until we've worked through this from A to Z. We need more than an understanding of our ENs. We need to know WHY this happened, and how to prevent it again in the future, because we WILL fail each other again. We will have another rocky point in the marriage. And I can't live in fear that every time we aren't on the up and up you will run to another woman to make you feel better.



I guess I missed this in SAA. I really felt that Harley was saying that there is nothing to be done about the past, so focus on the future. What did I miss?

I guess I have a slightly different perspective that is sort of a middle ground between the two.

I agree that it shouldn't be dwelled upon.

I also agree that ignoring it is dangerous.

So how do you accomplish both?

If I'm not mistaken, Dr. Harley says that every time you discuss the affair, it withdraws love units.

That leads me to believe that if it is to be talked about, it is wisest to be as efficient and productive as possible during the time it is discussed.

IMO, the most productive way this time could be spent would be in:

1) getting the entire truth out
2) discovering the 'why' from the aspect of what made the WS vulnerable in order to put protective boundaries in place in order to avoid future affairs

Good point. I still have a hard time knowing for sure that the fog has lifted. He says that it has. He says he wants me and our family and he is totally done with her. But...he has said a lot of things over the course of his affair. Who knows what is truth and what is not.

He hasn't tried to justify it though...he says only that he convinced himself that he "deserved" it and so he acted on it thinking he could control it and found that he couldn't. Oh God, how it hurts!

As far as "rehashing," WH has answered all and any questions I've had willingly and without complaint. But, he doesn't want to delve into the "why" of the affair. He wants to leave it as something selfish he did that I will never understand. I'm not ok with that, because it seems doomed to repeat. I don't know. What all does "rehasing" entail? Am I expecting too much?



This makes me think we aren't there. He doesn't find any relief in talking about it. Just the opposite. It hurts him. So, is it best to wait until he WANTS to talk about it or push the issue. I'm so confused.

For finances, we can't call the Harleys, but we are in MC, and we thought we might call them once we have a better grasp on all of our issues to run our plan by them and see what they think. We'd make better use of our hour that way.

wonderin,



But once apologies are made, a couple should move on to the business of rebuilding their relationship, and not dwell on the mistakes of their past. As much as you may want to talk about the affair or about any other mistake made, remember that every conversation on those subjects withdraw love units. And a Love Bank must first be overflowing with love units before you are in a position to waste any.

In C.W.'s case, he is close to having traversed the first two stages of marital recovery after an affair. He has completed the first stage by being completely separated from his lover, and he is near the end of the second stage where he is coming to the end of withdrawal from his dependence on her. Granted, he is still depressed, but part of his depression comes from living alone, and having a feeling of hopelessness trying to get his wife's cooperation to restore their marriage.

I think that both couples are ready for the third stage of marital recovery after an affair: Rebuilding their relationships. They all seem to be willing to negotiate, and are willing to let their spouses meet their emotional needs. That means they are no longer in the state of emotional withdrawal and are firmly fixed in the state of emotional conflict (if you do not understand the terms "withdrawal" and "conflict" see "Negotiating in the Three States of Marriage"). So any attempt to make their spouses happy is likely to have its desired effect -- love units will be deposited.

These two marriages are now in a position to be restored if the spouses take the correct steps. In some ways, both couples now have the same opportunity to solve their marital problems as they did before the affairs took place. And if they had done it then, they would have avoided all of the pain that the affairs inflicted on them. They are now where most bad marriages are, burdened by Love Busters and the failure to meet important emotional needs. So if they can toss off those burdens, they will not only create the marriage they need, but also eliminate the risk of another affair.

The steps these couples should take to restore their marriages are described in my book, Fall in Love, Stay in Love. It explains how couples can identify and overcome the Love Busters, anger, disrespect and demands. It also shows couples how to meet each other's emotional needs. But most importantly, it teaches couples how to create compatibility -- how to create an integrated lifestyle where dishonesty and secret second lives are eliminated.

The solution to most marital problems requires spouses to override their Taker's instincts. Doing what you feel like doing works great when you are in love, because the Giver calls the shots. But when you are not in love, and your Taker is in charge, your instincts will make matters much worse. The Taker wants you to get angry, be disrespectful and make demands. All of those Love Busters withdraw love units and also create defenses that make depositing new ones almost impossible.

Both C.W. and S.C. find their spouse's Love Busters coming between them and the restoration of love. But I'm sure that both of them are dishing them out as well.

So the first step in the restoration of marriage after an affair is to lay down the weapons. Each spouse must make a concerted effort to avoid anger, disrespect or demands at all costs. Every time they are together, they must do whatever it takes to make the relationship safe for each other.

Once they can guarantee each other safety, by protecting each other from Love Busters, they are ready to learn to meet each other's emotional needs. But they will have to learn to negotiate all of these issues with the Policy of Joint Agreement in mind. They must begin by guaranteeing each other that the cost of a great marriage will not require personal sacrifice. It will only require a willingness not to do anything that would hurt each other. They must understand that everything they will be doing in the future must take each other's feelings into account, and safety will be the guiding rule from now on.

With personal safety as the condition for negotiation, and enthusiastic mutual agreement as the goal, a couple is ready to rebuild. But that environment of safety may take a while to create. It may be the very first skill that they will need to learn before they can negotiate satisfactory.

wonderin,

Dr. Harley has a good article that I think are relevent to this question:

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget Pt. 1

excerpt:

First let's try to understand what forgiveness is. One illustration is telling a person who owes you $10,000 that he won't have to pay you back. You "forgive" the debt. In other words, forgiveness is eliminating a obligation of some sort.

But we generally don't think of money when we think of the need of forgiveness. Instead, we are concerned about inconsiderate behavior that has caused us great pain and suffering -- the pain that an affair causes, for example. Forgiveness in these situations means thinking about the person as if the offense never took place. That is extremely difficult to do. The offended spouse usually thinks, what can he or she do to make it up to me. How can I be compensated for the pain I've suffered.

To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.

I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be stupid to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.

As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.

So let's talk about just compensation. What could the offending spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? After all, it's probably the most painful experiences anyone could ever put his or her spouse through.

The first act of compensation to you from your husband should be to end his relationship with the other woman once and for all. He should never see or talk to her again, even if it means leaving his job or moving your family to another state. The reason should be obvious, but in case there's some confusion, he should be reminded that every contact he will ever have with this woman will be like a knife in your heart. He has already caused you to suffer unbearable pain, and any further contact with his ex-lover would keep you suffering. In your case, the affair is probably over, but has your husband taken precautions to never see or talk to his ex-lover again?

And then he should put extraordinary precautions in place to guarantee that another affair will not take it's place. Has he considered the circumstances that led to his affair? Intoxication, business trips that separate you overnight, close friendships with those of the opposite sex, recreational relationships that do not include you, and so forth, should be subject to scrutiny. What was it that made him vulnerable? Whatever it was, he should take extraordinary precautions to avoid it in the future. It's part of just compensation for the suffering he's caused you to bear.

While there's no excuse for an affair, and if your husband takes the extraordinary precautions I've suggested he will never have another affair again, there are "reasons" that people have affairs. And those reasons must also be addressed when considering just compensation.
*********************

Another person I greatly respect is Peggy Vaughn...the "grand dame" of infidelity research and the author of "The Monogamy Myth". Her site is the origin of "Joseph's Letter".

There are alot of great articles there, but here's a link to one:

http://www.dearpeggy.com/2-affairs/com003.html

I believe you have to "work through it".

Maybe you could make a plan that you will only talk about the affair during your MC sessions. That way you would have a moderator if things got heated.

You would spend your quality time together not rehashing over and over. You would deposit love units instead.

And if you have a question knawing at you to be answered....write it down and keep it until the next session so you won't forget. Because you DO have a right to answers and he DOES need to put forth the effort, no matter how long it takes, every time.


Remember he put himself in this position with his decision to become a WH.

Maybe this is the part I'm missing. Thanks, Star. I think this was in the book too?? I may have forgotten reading it online. I've read so many things lately I can't keep em straight. I will print that article to discuss with H.

And, yes, FTBM, I think you're right. We should have specific times to discuss and then times not to talk about it. We are doing well at this. And it is surprising to me that things really don't get too heated when we talk without the MC. I don't know if I'm still numb or what, but I have little emotional reaction to anything he says anymore.

Hi wonderin,

Our MC gave us Torn Asunder and had us work thorugh it... I really enjoyed the book and I thought that SAA "let the WS off" too easily.

Having said that, I later found that I was obsessing over the past and Mrs. RIF and I weren't moving forward. I found the MB site and re-read SAA and started applying the MB principles to our rebuilding.

For me, I found that I had to STOP focusing on the past once all of the "facts" were out... I also found that if I learned to make a "safe place" for Mrs. RIF, the more she would open up to me. Before I started applying the MB principles, Mrs. RIF would just give me bare-bones answers... no depth at all to her answers and I would get angry.

Rebuilding is VERY hard work and each couple must find the method that works best for them. For me, I had to work through my pain and anger before I could start applying the MB prinicples...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hey RIF!!!

Happy Birthday!!!

Thank you RIF. I often feel crazy as of late. I doubt every decision and waffle between one path and another. It is exhausting. Hearing your story (and others) has been envaluable to me. I will likely re-read my books too...there is so much, and so many bad habits to break, that it will be necessary in order to really let them sink in. I know I have the tendency to obsess on the past. I want to let it go, but I want assurance that H knows what lead him to this and how to stop it in the future too...especially since he is a pilot and gone half the week.

You're welcome wonderin.

Have you talked with your H about helping you?

Like I said earlier, Mrs. RIF didn't really start helping me with rebuilding our M until I was able to control my anger and make a safe place for her...

The old RIF would ask a question, not like the answer, and start beating Mrs. RIF up... After applying the MB principles, I was able to work on my DJs and angry outbursts and Mrs. RIF got to a point where she felt comfortable enough to answer my questions and start rebuilding with me.

Semper Fi,

RIF

PS - Hey Frozen!

Obsessing on the past is very normal at your stage. I think the two of you are doing fine. All of this can be worked out. You are getting great advice on this thread. Hang in there.

Wonderin - why do YOU think that he had an affair?

I get the feeling also that you have not forgiven him yet, why is that? Have you forgiven him?

The "message of the affair" is not just a singular reason in most cases. You have talked to him. You have been in counseling. What do YOU think the reasons were? Think of like writing down what you think his Emotional Needs are and then compare your idea with what he actually says are his Emotional Needs.

There is a "fine line" between dwelling on the affair and dealing with the affair. Be sure you don't cross it.

God bless.

***************************************

I agree.....it's early and you seem to be on the right track...it's very normal to question and doubt right now.
I think you have forgiven him....you are just struggling w/forgetting.... and there is a reason for that and I think it is healthy....I would be much more concerned if you were posting saying you were ecstatic about wanting to put the past behind you too....just be careful not to let yourself
get sucked into the negative side of dwelling on the affair.
You got some good advice on this thread.
hang in there.

As he will never truly understand your pain, your mind movies, your triggers, your need to discuss it.

After reading your threads, I get the feeling that your H is sorry that he hurt you, he just doesn't want to be held accoutable for it. Sure he wants to leave it in the past...that way, he doesn't have to deal with his feelings of shame, embarrassment, failure, etc. That would be easier for him, but at what cost to you?

While I certainly understand and relate to wanting the FWS to know, understand and yes...feel the full weight of the pain you have experienced - is that truly possible?

A FWS has the right to feel remorse as THEY experience it, rather than on the terms the BS might want to dictate.

In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter as long as they ARE remorseful? Is it really necessary for the FWS to relive it? Is it fair for the BS to have experienced such horrible pain and loss? Personally, I don't this it is fair, but fair isn't really the issue at hand...Recovery is.

As long as the FWS is willing to express remorse, help the BS heal and take the steps to ensure that another affair will not take place, is that enough?

I think that is probably a personal choice for each BS to make.

But a FWS doesn't necessarily need to feel the full weight of the BS's pain in order to know that they have hurt their BS.

An analogy:

If I slap my husband across the face and he tells me how painful it was and that I hurt him terribly, I can feel remorseful and sorry for the pain that I caused without having been slapped myself.

I can believe him when he says that it hurt him and desire not to hurt him in that way ever again and develop a plan to ensure that he is protected from ever being treated that way by me in the future.

For every BS, it is not fair to have been wounded in such a terrible way, but fair or not...that burden has been placed on our doorsteps whether we choose to reconcile with our FWS's or not. It isn't fair, but here it is.

I don't necessarily think that a FWS not wanting to live in it indicates a desire to not be held accountable.

I urge you to do some real soul searching about what it is that you are really desiring here.

Do you want him to show you that he understands how deep your pain is?

Do you want him to suffer the way you have suffered?

Do you need to know that he is truly sorry?

Do you need him to be more supportive when you are remembering and feeling pain?

This is likely something that can be POJA'd if you can uncover your root desire. I think that there is a way for you to get what you need that he would be willing to give if you can pinpoint what it is you need from him.

frozen - jmho, but an excellent post and very good questions that each person needs to think through as part of the recovery process.