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I don't necessarily think that a FWS not wanting to live in it indicates a desire to not be held accountable.
I urge you to do some real soul searching about what it is that you are really desiring here.
Do you want him to show you that he understands how deep your pain is?
Do you want him to suffer the way you have suffered?
Do you need to know that he is truly sorry?
Do you need him to be more supportive when you are remembering and feeling pain?
*********************************
very good points.
I agree that while it may look like wonderin's H does not wish too be held accountable...it may have more to do w/ his
enthusiasm to repair the relationship.
Personally, i do not see wonderin as someone who wants to see him suffer.... or completely FEEL her pain, but I do think she wants to feel more supported by him when she feels triggered and more confident that he is doing what he needs to do to affair proof the marriage from this point on.
Last edited by nia17; 01/16/08 10:35 AM.
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I tend to agree, but my WH wants to "let the past die" and focus on better communication and more willingness to meet each other's needs. He gets frustrated at the "backsliding" we do in counseling, but I think it is necessary. He says I'll never understand the "why" because there is no good reason for a selfish affair. I'm not even sure he KNOWS the reason entirely. And he doesn't seem to wnat to explore it. I would put the backsliding on hold for two months. By moving forward you may learn some things, gather information you did not have before...to help you both understand the big WHY or WHYs. There is no excuse for what your H did, but these things rarely happen in a vacuum. As he expresses his marital needs and expectations in front of a third party, you will start to see the bigger picture. A leopard cannot hide his spots.
Me: 56
H: 61
DD: 13 and hormonal
DS: 20
Oldest son died 1994 @ age 8
Happily married 30+ years
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frozen-
In general I agree with what you are saying. And I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you in this case. I am just wondering if you've read all of wonderin's other posts, knowing her unique situation - she has been taking extraordinary measures to work on the M, even before her D-Day.
Maybe that doesn't change your advice, but maybe it does, if you think after reading her other posts that she has been all Giver and no Taker. There needs to be a balance, and in this case you may be talking to someone who has gone further on the other side.
I think star's post was good.
me - 47  H - 39  married 2001 DS 8a  DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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I am just wondering if you've read all of wonderin's other posts, knowing her unique situation - she has been taking extraordinary measures to work on the M, even before her D-Day. ************************************ I have been thinking about this and I think maybe that wonderin was trying to Plan A long before she found out about the affair.....and, in all honesty I think that her H felt her willingness to work on herself and the relationship. I think that is part of the reason he was quick to dismiss the OW and try to recover his relationship w/ wonderin....he was feeling the effects of plan A. I do see A lot of hope for wonderin and her H right now....I say keep moving forward and pay attention to how your H is behaving but don't dwell on his uneasiness right now. someone suggested that you leave the 'affair talk' at the MCs.... couple that w/ pieta's suggestion to give it 2 months and see how he looks then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by nia17; 01/16/08 11:39 AM.
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Jayne, No, I haven't read all of wonderin's posts. Would it change my advice? I don't *think* it would change it regarding the specific question she asked. I did make the assumption that her H had expressed remorse. If that were the case, I would have addressed THAT. I still feel like a dissection isn't necessary and can be harmful. I base that on Dr. Harley's advice on the topic and the fact that my own mistakes verify to me that what Dr. Harley says is correct. I tried to sift through some of wonderin's past posts, but there were hundreds! So I was wonderin ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> get it?) if you would be willing to give me helpful shortcut by filling me in on the highlights or what information you think might change my opinion? I would greatly appreciate it if you wouldn't mind.
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Hi frozen, I don't mind... but I hope it isn't insulting to wonderin for me to presume... I wonder <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> if it would be better for me to link to a summary I or someone else posted shortly after her D-Day... Well I was able to find where I posted a summary, it was on the "old-timers" thread. I'm not sure how to link to that particular post inside the thread so I'l cut and paste here: Hi, please excuse the intrusion but... K? Are you reading? Or any of you other really truly seasoned vets that really know MB principles? Would you mind dropping in on wonderin's thread on the EN board? She is not a newbie, she's been posting for awhile and a lot of us care deeply about her. She was on MB to improve her marriage for non-affair reasons, primarily her H's need for AS involved his request that she lose 10 pounds... she's pregnant by the way and was at a healthy BMI before pregnancy, weighing the same as when they dated and married. Her early thread contains all that discussion, FYI, I don't mean to resurrect that dispute over here. Just providing the briefest background. Just the other day she discovered that her H has been involved with an OW. I would just feel so much better if K or someone experienced and well-grounded in MBers would look in on that thread. She briefly posted as wonderin3 due to being out of her house. Her current thread is http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3354005wonderin3 is the same person as wonderin, and she is not a troll! I hate posting on GQII, I'm sorry for coming here, but I wanted to make sure K would see this. ETA: I chose this thread because it isn't involved in any disputes and I didn't want to tj someone's thread who needs advice. IMO her H has worn down her self-respect by complaining about her weight, then complained that she was self-conscious about her body in front of him. She has gone to great lengths o accommodate his AS need, but there's always something else - to the point that, honestly, a lot of us think it's a SD. He was comparing her to women at his gym, telling her she should look like that. She's pregnant, but she has really been trying to be a submissive wife especially in regards to eating no sweets, etc., having accountability partners in their church, praying, doing Bible studies both here with FH and TR, and IRL, following the MB practices, doing the questionnaires, etc. She has been doing this for months, on the EN board. Then she found out that her H, a pilot, has been having an affair with a flight attendant. (This was about a month ago, Dec. 11.) She has since been struggling with feeling guilty for her anger, trying to figure out the meaning of forgiveness and what she needs to do to forgive. Even just after D-Day, she was already trying to forgive, and was mostly in "Giver" mode still. She is just learning to approach the table with her Taker. And in my humble opinion, Dr. Harley advocates a balance - a good Taker is necessary for a healthy relationship - and IMHO this is a case where someone needs to learn more about being a good Taker, not encouraged to go back to being a Giver only. It took some time, but I just found another of my posts to wondering. Some of this is old news and I'm not trying to re-hash old arguments, but this may help you understand the history: I agree too. It does no one any good to shield him from consequences. This isn't about revenge. Wonderin, no one thinks you would be doing it out of revenge. I may be wrong, but I think it also isn't about forgiveness or the lack thereof. You don't need to "prove" your forgiveness by shielding him from consequences. We all read about how sincere you are in wanting to learn forgiveness. Taking responsibility. Complete honesty and openness. Allowing accountability. All part of the MB principles for building a good marriage, and IMO all consistent with Biblical truth. David may have been forgiven, wiped completely clean, a man after God's own heart... but he still suffered great personal loss and so did his family and his kingdom, as consequences. Moses, it doesn't get much better than Moses... surely Moses was "forgiven" of any sins he committed... but Moses did not ever enter the Promised Land. Consequences are necessary and important. Still don't know how I feel about that. What FH made me think...I don't want to simply glorify myself and how I'm "better" than him because I didn't commit adultry. I certainly hope this isn't my motive. I don't know if I want them to know simply so that if our M fails, they understand that it wasn't because I just walked away from the issues we struggle with, or because I want him to start defending my honor, or because I want him to put my and my feelings/reputation first for a change, or because I want to hurt him on some level, or because I want him to work through some of the issues he has with his parents and the way he was raised (there is a link between the affair and their parenting) or what. I just kinda feel like he should and I can't put my finger on exactly WHY. I don't think it's about you wanting to glorify yourself or put H down or hurt him. I think it's just the right thing for him to do. And I can put my finger on why I think so, as described above. Those reasons, based on his need to take responsibility, exist regardless of what your motives are. IMHO it isn't a bad thought to wish for him to protect you; and I think the following are perfectly valid reasons or motives: ...so that if our M fails, they understand that it wasn't because I just walked away from the issues we struggle with, or because I want him to start defending my honor, or because I want him to put my and my feelings/reputation first for a change, ... or because I want him to work through some of the issues he has with his parents and the way he was raised (there is a link between the affair and their parenting)...
He has requested a list of specific behaviors he can choose from that speak love loudly to me. ...
I still don't believe that he loves me or WANTS to be married to me, but he swears that he does and that he believes that once we work through this it will be better than it ever has been. He keeps begging me for the change to "win back my heart." I think being completely honest with his parents is one thing he could/should do. editted to fix a messed up nested quote. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Last edited by jayne241; 01/16/08 01:15 PM.
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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Re: Torn Asunder vs. MB
#502917 - 07/11/01 10:25 AM
Edit post Edit Reply to this post Reply Reply to this post Quote Quick Reply Quick Reply
This was discussed quite some time ago, and I'm not sure whether it's still in the "notable posts".
Carder's book (IMO) is fundamentally different that SAA in one very large area. He doesn't really have much of a systematic "plan" for dealing with an on-going affair. He basically says at some point, you separate---but not to do it as a bluff. So, as far as a "active affair" book, I didn't find it very helpful concerning an action plan. It does a nice job of describing the emotional state of the individuals involved.
Carder's book is more slanted towards recovery. However, his emphasis on the betrayed spouse's anger isn't probably helpful. Yes, it'll work in the case that the affair is over, and the wayward spouse is truly remorseful and will take the anger---but hey, if that's your situation, recovery is probably gonna happen no matter what.
Harley's book is geared more towards working strategies during an affair. His emphasis on avoiding lovebusters is more successful for those "precarious" marriages that may not get to the recovery point without that extra care. However, avoiding "angry outbursts" are NOT the same as repressing your anger---the difference is that you manage your anger in appropriate ways. You can still express anger to your spouse, but you don't try to put a claw hammer through their head. And honestly, I think that Carder also mentions "appropriate" expressions of anger.
Repression of these strong emotions is bad. But there are appropriate ways to release these emotions that can actually help to restore love.
*********************************************
Hi wonderin,
happened upon this old thread and felt this post might be helpful since you mentioned both books.. it was posted by "k"
Last edited by nia17; 01/16/08 08:16 PM.
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Jayne!!! I can't thank you enough. I really appreciate your researching that for me. And in my humble opinion, Dr. Harley advocates a balance - a good Taker is necessary for a healthy relationship - and IMHO this is a case where someone needs to learn more about being a good Taker, not encouraged to go back to being a Giver only. You are absolutely right! A good Taker is completely necessary. Simply put, your Giver takes care of others and cares nothing for what you get in return. Your Taker cares for you, and cares nothing for the other person. But if couples can learn to get what they want/need in any given area of their marriage and life together while considering the other person's wants, needs and protection at the same time, over time they build a life that is mutually rewarding and satisfying. It's so simple it's complicated, huh? The trouble is that being in Giver mode can cause you to feel very dissatisfied and resentment and often entitlement are soon to follow. When that happens, inevitably their Taker kicks in and they begin to try to get what they need at the other's expense. It's not WHAT they want that is the problem, it's the way they go about trying to get it. She has since been struggling with feeling guilty for her anger, trying to figure out the meaning of forgiveness and what she needs to do to forgive. It is perfectly reasonable to FEEL angry. Wonderin, how are you expressing that anger? Regarding what to do to forgive, what steps is your H taking to help recover from the affair?
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Have you talked with your H about helping you?
Like I said earlier, Mrs. RIF didn't really start helping me with rebuilding our M until I was able to control my anger and make a safe place for her...
The old RIF would ask a question, not like the answer, and start beating Mrs. RIF up... After applying the MB principles, I was able to work on my DJs and angry outbursts and Mrs. RIF got to a point where she felt comfortable enough to answer my questions and start rebuilding with me. Yes, I've talked to H. He wants desperately to look forward and not behind. He feels looking back is not helpful. So, he will talk about things if I want to, but he hates it. I know that I could very well be guilty of LBing...but I don't think that I am doing any obvious ones...I think it is more that he doesn't want to "rehash" what has already been done when it is "more productive" to figure out how to meet ENs, avoid LBs, and safeguard the M. I just don't see how you can safeguard the M without looking back to see what went wrong. He insists it is as simple as unmet ENs, feelings of hopelessness that things would never change, and selfishness...I just can't believe it is that simple. Maybe this is just my ignorance since I've never traveled that road. I don't know.
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My D just woke up from her nap, so I'll have to sign off for now, but thank you all so much for the replies. I will reply as soon as time allows.
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Hi Wonderin,
You're getting some great advice...
As the BW, you are 100% in control of how much information YOU need in order to process your H's A. IMHO, your H "owes" you the answer to any and all questions that YOU need in order to work through HIS betrayal.
Having said that, each BS must decide for themselves just how much detail they want to know. I was very detail oriented and had a lot (9 A's that were over 10 years old) of empty spaces that I needed to fill in.
I wasn't able to start filling in these empty spaces until I showed Mrs. RIF that I wouldn't drop a nuclear bomb on her everytime she gave me a hurtful answer to one of my questions.
At some point in time, once you've gotten the answers to the questions that YOU need, and you and your H have BOTH worked through the pain and anger... YOU will have to shift your focus to the present and leave the past in the past. A caution here is that you MUST work through these issues...You can't ignore them and you can't step around them. You have to wade in and work through each issue in order to heal.
My point here is that as you are working through each issue, you need to do it in a loving way and make it "safe" for your H to provide you with the answers... I hope this makes it a bit clearer for you...
Semper Fi,
RIF
Me, BS
Her, Forgiven
Married Dec 86
Multiple A's that ended '90
Rebuilding In Faith since then...
Currently deployed to Iraq, but TEXAS is Home!
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Wonderin,
Find "Joseph's Letter" from The Monogamy Myth by Peggy Vaughan. I think someone suggested that already. If you can write a letter similar as that one to your WS, maybe he will understand your "need to know".
I agree with RIF, you must provide a safe place in order to do that.
My WH hated for me to discuss it and wanted to brush it under the rug. Heck, I hated to discuss it, but it was like an addicting bag of potato chips. Just one question wasn't enough.
If you can make it through the muck, you will be victorious.
Free
"Love the life you live, live the life you love." Bob Marley
BS(me)37
WH(37)
DS1
Dau from prev M 16
Married 4/06
D-day 6/06, again 11/06, again 4/07
Plan A'd all over the place, then
Injunction 10/07, WH moved in with OW
WH has own place 12/07
1/08 Plan B
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"He insists it is as simple as unmet ENs, feelings of hopelessness that things would never change"
I dont understand this. What specific unmet EN's is he talking about here????
What was he so hopeless about? What things did he feel so bad about and that would never change?
Are these some of his unmet needs?
1. The fact he wanted you to be a size 0 and you are not?
2. He wants you to have a different body type?
3. What else?
4. _________________________
Why is he hopeless?
What unmet needs does he feel he has?
You do everything, take care of the baby, etc.
What need could he think is missing????
He is so sad that it might never change? What in your marriage is so bad that he was worried it might never change? You losing 10 lbs for him? What?
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What is sooooo bad in his marriage with you that he could not bear it and HAD to have an affair.?
What is so hopeless in your marriage that he was FORCED into the waiting loving arms of another woman?
Sounds to me he is making excuses for his bad behavior but if there are terrible things in your marriage you are not telling us or many needs you are not meeting for your husband, well come out with it. How would it be so awful that he would not only have an affair but bring your daughter to see the OW several hundred times!!!!!!!!
I wonder if he was momentarily thinking of getting away from you and taking your kid and marrying the other woman. In his crazy mind that is in a fog.....
What is so terrible about your marriage in his mind?
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Frozen, no, thank *you*! I started worrying that I would sound like I was trying to convince you to have a certain opinion. I want you to give your own opinion, I just wanted to make sure it was based on enough information. I'm sure you realize that the summary I gave was from my own point of view, and I'm sure you won't say something just to agree with me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> There wasn't really anything you said the first time that I disagreed with. I really was interested in what your advice would be, given more information. So, thank you!
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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To all...
I keep seeing on here where everyone says that you need to make the WS safe and secure before they can talk about A. Which I can understand. What I don't understand is what you do with you anger/resentment/bitterness until you get your questions answered?? I know that you can take it to God, come here to vent, surround yourself with your support group for help, but what if you do all that and yet it doesn;t help?? This is where I am at. I am Plan Aing, not doing any LB's, and trying to meet all EN's, but what do you do with your emotions in the mean time??
I guess this is the Taker in me fighting like mad to rage, but how do you all control this???
Sorry about h/j but this thread has been most helpful to me. We are no where close to getting to this point and I am struggling daily with trying to deal with these emotions
not2fun
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Hi N2F,
Our MC suggested that I journal my feelings and when that wasn't enough, to go to the batting cage and swat some balls. Find something physical that you can do to release some of your pent up anger.
The goal in all of these "exercises" (journaling, exercising, etc) are to physically release the anger you have without lashing out at your spouse.
Semper Fi,
RIF
Me, BS
Her, Forgiven
Married Dec 86
Multiple A's that ended '90
Rebuilding In Faith since then...
Currently deployed to Iraq, but TEXAS is Home!
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Jayne, I started worrying that I would sound like I was trying to convince you to have a certain opinion. Not at all. You stated your message quite clearly and respectfully. I'm sure you won't say something just to agree with me Ahhh...my H would probably snort at that. I would NEVER say something just to agree with someone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I really was interested in what your advice would be, given more information. I'm reserving advice pending information about what wonderin's H's Recovery attitude is. Regardless, I completely agree with you that sacrificing and being in Giver mode is dangerous for a marriage.
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Ahhh...my H would probably snort at that. I would NEVER say something just to agree with someone. *snort* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
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I'm reserving advice pending information about what wonderin's H's Recovery attitude is.
Regardless, I completely agree with you that sacrificing and being in Giver mode is dangerous for a marriage.
**************************************
Frozen,
check out wonderin's last post on the EN board.....she posted last night after MC...she's pretty down right now.
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