I'd like to turn the tables a bit here. I'd like to hear from the women how they would feel and react in the following situation:

You get a call out of the blue one morning from a very rude attorney telling you you must be in court the next day, ex parte.

You show up, and are given some court forms claiming you are a monster and that you are a danger to your child. There is a claim made that child services is investigating you, and you have been determined to be a risk to your children. Later you find that the ex had a friend file the charges with child services.

The ex's attorney just spouts out evil after evil that you have committed, and the claims are quite extreme. You wonder how, if this is all true, which you know it is not, that there is absolutely no evidence of it. The other side fails to provide, and the judge doesn't ask for, a speck of evidence.

The judge then asks you to prove that the charges are false. Huh? No facts have been presented, just heresay, so there is absolutely no way to prove the charges false, and your kids are immediately taken from you. You do have a box full of evidence showing the ex to be a liar, but the judge says there isn't time for you to present any of it.

A minors counsel is assigned, who investigates and discovers the ex is a complete liar.

You go back to court in 6 weeks (all the while only seeing your kids with a supervisor you must pay for) and the minors counsel says give you back your kids, as ex is lying and all her contentions are false. Oh, and child services return the claim unfounded, meaning you are innocent of the charges.

The other attorney is outraged, and now starts to make up accusations (which are later found to be untrue) against the minors counsel. The judge believes the other attorney, and recuses minors counsel and assigns another one. Turns out this new minors counsel hears cases in the other attorneys courtroom - the other attorney is also a judge pro tem in the same courthouse.

Obviously, you lose your kids.

Now, my question is, how would you feel, what would you do, and how would you see the system that allowed this travesty?

Britney, is that YOU?


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

j/k

set_you_free,

i'm so sorry to hear about what is going on with your kids.

bottomline, i would FIGHT IT!!!

Finally, I am doing all I can. I think the main purpose of this post is to get some of the women here to understand what us men are really going through. My story is far too common, and some on here apparantly feel that most of us guys just want to run and shirk our responsibilities.

With my situation, the temptation to run is there, trust me, but I love my kids too much to give up. It sure would be easier, cheaper, and I'd have more toys!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A long, long time ago, there were no Family Courts. King Solomon was often tasked with resolving the disputes of his subjects. His proverbial reputation as a wise and clever judge was derived from the way he resolved these disputes, especially his very first case.

In this particular dispute, two women who lived in the same house had given birth to sons within a few days of each other. Unfortunately, one of the babies died shortly after and both women claimed custody of the remaining child. King Solomon, knowing that a decision in favor of the wrong woman would mean complete devastation for the real mother, suggested that he divide the child and give each woman half.

It was then that the mother of the child, not wanting her child to die, pleaded with the king to spare the child, telling him that she would allow the other woman to raise him rather than have him die. The other woman claiming to be the mother, was not prepared to make such a sacrifice.

It was clear to the King then who the real mother was and he accordingly awarded custody of the child to her.

In his infinite wisdom, King Solomon, by making the apparently preposterous suggestion to split the baby, accomplished much more than just a compromise of the dispute. His method had revealed the litigants’ own motivations in pursuing custody of the child to both themselves and to him and with that knowledge, he was able to determine in whose hands would the child’s best interest be safeguarded."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Keep a diary of every interaction, every day, even the mundane days .... a diary may be useful in your situation.

Today's family court judges are often asked to decide some really convoluted situations. AND, to determine WHO is truthful & who is not.

I'd hate to be a family court judge.

Your first mistake was showing up in court without an attorney. The attorney on the phone lied to you when he used the term "ex parte". An "ex parte" hearing is an emergency hearing in front of the judge with only one party present. You absolutely had the right to be represented by an attorney at that hearing. Have you since hired your own attorney to fight this?

Pepper, if only we could have Solomon today....

Actually, I would love to be a family court judge. It's not that hard - follow the law, make the accusing party prove their case. If they can't, say goodbye, and award attorney fees to the other side.

Princess, sadly I have a very good understanding of courts these days. I was, however, unable to afford an attorney and afford rent and food. I had to file BK after spending over $40k on the exact same charges several years earlier. Used an attorney then, but nothing was settled until I fired the loser.

Aagin though, I appreciate the concern, but I am more looking to help the female persuasion on this site see why men may be tempted to opt out of our abusive system. Or to at least understand what we are going through.

I am hoping to generate thought by helping others see why some of us men feel the way we do.

Sorry 'bout the Britney joke .... she's been on my mind

just trying to make ya smile just a little <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

edit for TMI

Pep, I do appreciate that. Though it may not seem so, I am not bitter and pissed, I have actually let most of the anger over being screwed go.

I am trying to do my part so that no other children have to suffer like mine are. Some poeple here don't like me because I don't candy coat things or believe something just because someone says it. Maybe it's because I don't need the calories......

More likely because I've seen too many of the games people play.

I did not write this. A good friend of mine received this from his highly reputable father's rights divorce attorney. He forwarded it to me such that I may provide it to others.

As far as what I think you should do...

Accept that she has lied and cheated and beat you in round one of this neverending battle, but have faith that honesty and integrity will eventually win the war. The fight continues. Take this time without your kids to WORK your butt off to accumulate yourself a war chest with which to fight (maybe even bartending or something you can earn without having to give your enemy MORE money...you can CHOOSE to spend some of the extra money on the kids yourself, when the ARE with you).

Document....but do it with a vision of what NEEDS to be documented and what doesn't. Your journals will be admissable and they can demonstrate your intent (vindication and resentment versus best interests of the kids).

Realize that one day your kids WILL be near adults able to choose where they want to live regardless of the court.

Realize that one day your kids will be adults and you have the opportunity to have complete contact with them.

Maybe consider hiring for yourself the court appointed kids attorney. He MAY have already emotionally attached to you and your case and be willing to really fight for you.

Realize that in the end...no matter if this never gets better for you...your wife WILL have to answer to God for her actions against you. She can not escape her consequences. Pray for your enemy.

Mr. W



**************************

Imagine this:

Darth Vader and Princess Lea are each asking the court for custody of a baby they found abandoned.

Darth Vader starts out with "Good Morning your Honor. My name is Anakin Skywalker and I'm here today to ask this Court to award me Custody of this baby that was found abandoned by the road. Although Princess Lea was with me when we found the baby, and she also wants Custody, I think it would be best for the baby to live with me because . . .

The young, new junior judge assigned to the case doesn't recognize him as "Darth Vader," and is listening to him with an open mind.

Except then Vader makes the mistake of saying the famous line that makes his so recognizable ("She is a traitor and a rebel!") and he also regresses back to his more militaristic language and tone:

I HAVE COMPILED MUCH DATA FROM ACROSS THE GALAXY THAT SHOWS CLEARLY THAT SHE IS PART OF THE REBEL ALLIANCE AND A TRAITOR AND THAT I SHOULD HAVE CUSTODY! IF YOU LOOK AT MY CHARTS, GRAPHS, AND SPREAD SHEETS, YOU WILL SEE THAT THIS IS THE UNDENIABLE TRUTH! I ALSO HAVE A VIDEO THAT SHOWS HER BEING UNSTABLE AND RUDE TO ME AND WHERE SHE EVEN STOMPS ON MY FOOT! I ALSO HAVE THE CODE RIGHT HERE WHICH SHOWS THAT THE LAW IS ON MY SIDE AND THAT MY RIGHTS HERE ARE UNDENIABLE!

The young, new junior judge assigned to the case is thinking:

"Oh my GOD, it's Darth VADER. What do I DO!? --I can't give it to HIM instead of to HER!!!" --He goes back to the older judge and says "What do I DO?"

The older judge says "Yeah, we can't let VADER win over LEA! --He's EVIL! FIND something he'll accept as an excuse! What do we have to work with? Let's see here -- Oh, it looks like he knows nothing about nutrition -- go with that excuse.

The younger judge goes back out and says: "Um, Mr. Skywalker, um, it looks like you know nothing about nutrition and you've been feeding the baby things with hydrogenated oil in it -- Is that true?"

YES, WELL, SO?

Um, yeah, that's going to be a problem. See we can't . . .

WAIT A MINUTE! --SHE GIVES THE BABY FOOD FROM MCDONALD'S! I HAVE IT ON VIDEO TAPE. I ALSO HAVE PICTURES OF IT IN MY COMPILATIONS I MADE FOR LITIGATION!

The junior judge thinks "Oh @#%$, what do I do now?!" and runs back to the older judge and says "He nailed her for doing it too. What do I do NOW?" The older judge says "Find something ELSE!"

The junior judge goes back out and says "Um, Lord Vader, it says here that you work more than 80 hours a week -- Is that true?"

YES, OF COURSE -- I HAVE A DEATH STAR TO RUN AMONG MANY OTHER THINGS. UNLIKE SOME PEOPLE I HAVE A HIGH WORK ETHIC.

Ah, I see. OK then. Well, see, we're not going to be able to give you custody because you work too much. Princess Lea's job of being a Rebel And A Traitor only causes her to have to work 20 hours a week.

THAT'S NOT TRUE -- THE DATA I HAVE COMPILED SHOWS THAT SHE TOO WORKS 80 HOURS A WEEK -- SHE JUST DOESN'T TALK ABOUT IT! I HAVE EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS THIS!

The judge is thinking "@#%$! What do I DO?! What can I find in a hurry to justify giving it to her and not to him?

Uh, OK, well, I see in here that you don't actually live on the Death Star -- that you live several 100,000 light years away actually and that you commute every morning is that true?

YES, WELL, SO? THE DEATH STAR IS A DANGEROUS PLACE TO BE -- I WILL BE KEEPING THE BABY IN A SAFER PLACE. --SO I WOULD THINK IT WOULD HELP MY CASE FOR ME TO NOT LIVE ON THE DEATH STAR!

Um, well, Princess Lea doesn't commute, so it looks like she will actually have more time to be able to focus on the baby than you, so we're going to give it to her.

--This is how it plays out in most cases I've seen -- Lea won't have to say or do much because they are falling all over themselves to find any excuse they can to not give it to Vader -- because they determined in the first few minutes that he's the "bad guy" and so they don't want him to win -- no matter what he has in his "Trial Notebooks."

It is in your best interest to refrain from making the mistake of thinking that these smaller things they cite as justifications are really what makes them want to give it to you or not!

One of Vader's minions then comes running in with the news -- a tape that shows that Princess Lea actually commutes as well -- Oh joy! The playing field is now LEVEL! --So Vader and his team of steam-rolling attorneys think and get all happy and optimistic (not understanding that they simply do not want to give it to him and do not plan to do so no matter what they prove -- because he blew his first impression with them).

Rather than giving them true "equal consideration based on the list of factors," or giving them 50-50, the judge will like say something like "OK, well, I can't make a decision today. I'm going to order a Custody Evaluation" (and hope that the custody evaluator can come up with some excuse to not give it to Vader).

What they don't typically do is just SAY (out loud) "Oh my GOD, you are using your legal name of Anakin Skywalker, but we figured out you are the notorious Evil Darth Vader when you said that famous line and regressed back into the kind of language and tone he uses. Oh ****** no, we don't want to do anything for you." --They look for excuses to give him and if they can't find any, then they call in the experts to help them find some.

So if a lawyer wants to help Darth Vader get Custody, the better way to go would be to focus more convincing the court from the beginning that he is not, in fact, the very same evil Darth Vader that we all saw in the first movie, but is the reformed humble and now good Darth Vader that we saw in the later movie than it would be to focus on trying to convince the court that it should give him custody because SHE stomped on his foot. --No one will blame her for stomping on evil Darth Vader's foot.

If the playing field is level -- say between two seemingly equal good people such as Princess Lea and Luke Sykwalker, then the odds are high the court will be inclined to order Shared Physical Custody or if joint physical custody isn't appropriate for some reason (like the parties live so far apart from each other the child couldn't easily get to school from one parent's home), to really give both equal consideration based on the "custody factors."

If one person comes across as being Vader-Like and the other comes across as being saintly Lea-Like, then the odds are high they will point to whatever excuse they can find to give it to her -- Despite what all his compilations may show!

Why do they do this? I have no proof of this, but my belief is that they don't want these Vader-types angry at them and they have found over time that these Vader types believe in RULES AND STRUCTURE and so can be rolled out much easier by citing some trivial rule or procedure or blown up otherwise trivial issue than if you were to tell them "We think you are evil/mean/stingy and we want to reward good/nice/generous over evil/mean/stingy.

Note that most people do not concern themselves with how or why Darth Vader ended up the way he did for the first movie (Is it because, as we can see in Vader's video, that Lea stomped on his foot? -- or did Lea stomp on his foot because he was already evil and mean at that point and she was responding to that?) -- They simply noted that he was, for whatever reason, the bad guy and Lea was one of the good guys.

--It may be that Fathers have been turned into the bitter/vengeful/angry "bad guys" because of what did the Mothers did to them, but even if this is the case, it is in Fathers' best interest to come across as a nice/warm/loving/generous good guys when they make their First Impressions in Family Court.

--If you do not do this, then my experience has been that the rest will not matter much. And if you come across as the bad guy, but we have lined everything up so they cannot find anything on you that they don't also have to admit about her, then my experience has been that the Master/Judge will simply give it to her with a very vague explanation, such as "I find that there is not a significant change of circumstances here enough to warrant any change in the Order."

Or, if you have been especially good at making your Legal case, but you have not been successful in making a good IMPRESSION, she may, instead of just denying your request outright, do something like order a custody evaluation to get the whole mess off her plate for a while and see what options the evaluator may give her to choose from to hold against you if that's what she wants to do. And if it turns out that the Custody Evaluator issues a Report that says she thinks you should get Custody, the judge can still ignore that and not give it to you -- The judge is not at all bound to follow what the court-appointed experts suggest -- In fact, the written law requires them to consider what the experts say but to use their independent judgement in the end.

SO THE GOAL HERE IS TO MAKE THE MASTER/JUDGE W A N T TO DO SOMETHING FOR YOU. --Not go in there with your compilations and try to convince the Master/Judge that she MUST do something for you. --And not to RELY on your evidence to make your case for you and to make the judge WANT to do anything for you. In almost 10 years of doing mostly Family Law, my experience has been that it's in your best interest to focus on being LIKED rather than on being "RIGHT."

--Your survival instinct is pressing you to want to "Nail Things Down" and "get them right" instead of focusing on the more vague goal of "learning to express yourself in general ways Family Law judges tend to like and tend to Reward." --It is in your best interest to resist your urge to Nail Things Down into exact words you can then work on memorizing in a stiff way and to instead let Paula do what she knows to do to try to loosen you up and get you used to talking the way you need to talk in Court.

The number-one goal is for you to accomplish is for you to not look like or seem like you are angry and in court because you just have an ax to grind. --If you look or seem this way, the odds are high that they won't care much about what you have to say --or about what your compiled data show. You are trying to get the "right answers" and to "Nail Things Down." Since your case is a Modification, all the Master/Judge has to say if you don't make her WANT to do something for you is "I don't find there to be a significant change of circumstances." --It is in your best interest to accept the subjectivity of this and to practice talking in ways the Master will find likeable as much as possible. --To embrace the "fluffy @#%$" in a way you have never done before.

Hmm, I was hoping that some of those on this forum who continuously attack men and claim the family court system is fair and unbiased would respond.

It might do them good to see that their isolated experiences are not what is enjoyed by the rest of us.

My experience is more common than most people want to believe.

I'd really like for some here to put themselves in my shoes and think about how they would react, how they would feel. Maybe then their knee jerk reactions to my points of view would change. Maybe. Or maybe it would just expose the truth about them.

While I do see some men haters out there...I haven't seen many suggest the system is fair towards men. That would certainly require sticking ones head in the sand.




exactly.

I have a friend that has a son of 11. He has sole custody of the boy and has done ever since his exGF (they never married, the boy was an 'accident') abandoned him as a baby.

I think the child was intended to be a meal ticket for her. Anyway that plan backfired because she has such severe mental health problems that she was declared an unfit parent by the courts.

Despite this and despite the fact that she has no interest in the boy, the courts repeatedly attempt to return him to her. My friend has spent his entire savings on legal fees.

All I can say in comfort to you, as I say to my friend, is that her mental illness is a tragedy but it allows you to have your children so there is a blessing in there.

Good luck with your fight. I hope you will recover your children soon. I'm sure they appreciate everything you do for them.

Thanks, Lied to, I can see in my wonderful children's eyes that they do. Sadly, the courts have caused them to be beholden to their mother so they are stuck in a bad place.

She'd be a good mom if she would just leave us all alone, but she is sadly so unhappy she won't stop.

But, when mom is not there, we have such great times because they don't have to be so guarded. Poor kids, mom forces them to talk to me on speaker phone so mom can hear. Pathetic.

You have my sympathy about what you are currently going through. After a particular unfair case I knew of several years ago as I was asking "where is justice" - I was told "In the courts and the legal system you get law." Law does not always equal justice.

I think men do get the short and nasty end of the stick when it comes to divorce and family court. I think any man who gets married, no matter what his current social status, should insist on a prenup contract. I think any woman entering a marriage should do the same. I think every man whether married or single should insist on a DNA test on each child born and presented as his. I think women who have falsely accused men of fathering their child should immediately cease being forced to pay child support and the woman who knowingly made the false accusation should be prosecuted.

The prenup should spell out financial details, property details, the contractual path that will be taken in the case of infidelity, educational/career distribution (if she works while he gets a professional degree, then he must work until she gets her professional degree), proximity arrangements in case of divorce (no taking the COM 2000 miles away after a divorce), etc.

I know that 70% of the divorces are filed by women. I believe that the higher percentage is based on the mother's confidence that she will retain primary custody of the children.

I think anyone who uses a false accusation of violence or abuse should be prosecuted if the charge is proven false. I do not think men should automatically with little recourse be pushed out of the familial home. If a forced separation occurs, no affair partner should be allowed to live in the home.

There are bad apples on both gender trees when it comes to marriage and divorce. I think the pendulum is slowly swinging toward a more equal approach to divorce and custody. But men are going to have to get better organized in every state and start pushing for father's rights.

And BTW, I'm a woman.

SYF…

I have a story about my first divorce and the incompetence of the family court system. It’s a long one…but if you want, I’ll post it…

Amazin, I'd like that. Sometimes good to know we're not alone (not that I think that, I've seen too much already...)

Graplin, nice to see one of the female persuasion "see the light." Can you tell me how it is you see things the way you do?