FYI, for those who have Time-Warner cable, the 1944 movie Gaslight is available this month in the "Free On Demand" area. This is the movie from which the term "gaslighting" made its way into the vocabulary and it's considered a classic. Since gaslighting is a favored tactic of WS's everywhere, I think some key insights into certain unfair manipulative tactics may be obtained from the movie. And...it's a darn good movie too with a cast that includes Charles Boyer, Joseph Cotton, Ingrid Bergman, and Terry Moore (among others), plus a young Angela Lansbury in her film debut in a role that won her her first nomination for an Oscar.

(There is an older version of this movie, circa 1939 or 1040, made in Great Britain but this 1944 version is said to be the best.)

LH

Thanks Longhorn.....

I think I need to watch that one.

Besides...I'm so restless it will occupy a few minutes....

Minor TJ... W and I went to "Bucket List" today...we both enjoyed it immensely. ***** stars from me.

OK, what is "gaslighting"?

Girls night out last weekend we saw Bucket List. Today WH, son and I saw Cloverfield... carsick!!

From Wikipedia:

This was my LIFE with H for many years. I would say something was happening with H and he would deny it. Or he would say something in a tone or use such a way with words and I would ask him and he would tell me I was imagining it.

I dealt with it by retreating to volunteer work and that gave him the PERFECT excuse to say he was lonely. His mind games were my undoing into allowing myself to become someone I wasn't.

Since he has left, I no longer live in that craziness and love the ground of sanity that is growing daily.

I have to see this movie.

Both versions are excellent. The 1944 is the best known one, but by chance I rented Netflix and it came with both. I watched them because Gaslighting was a big part of our marriage once X got so involved with OW.

It's excellent therapy for someone living with a gaslighting wayward spouse.

Longhorn, I agree that it is a great movie. I'm a big classic film fan myself and this is one of my top favorites.

The whole concept of gaslighting is fascinating to me and something that I have researched in the past. The more familiar understanding of the term is that it is an attempt to drive someone crazy. IMO, it is not limited to just that, the underlying theme is to undermine another person's ability to trust their own perception of themselves and the world around them.

And the most deceptive part is that it is usually presented as if the gaslighter has the target's best interest in mind.

I ran across an article written by a man who has seminars to teach salespeople how to persuade wealthy potential clients to buy their services/products. His techniques are based on undermining the target's trust in the reliability of their perceptions, flattering their vanity, and/or playing on their self doubt. The title of the article is: 'A Lesson in Gaslighting ' by Kenrick Cleveland.

He sees gaslighting as having 5 strategies: 1)Repeated questioning, 2)Pointing out things that simply aren't there, 3)Experts using their "specialized knowledge", 4)Revealing the secret thoughts of others, 5)to use the power of the many against the tiny power of the one.

I think BSs can often encounter aspects of all of these during different stages of infidelity. Of course, it isn't limited to infidelity alone.

1)Repeatedly questioning the target: which often leads to their self doubt. Game show hosts do it, "Are you sure? Is that your final answer? Do you want to think about that again?" Each question can make you doubt your earlier decision and instill fear.

Girl cliques leader: "Are you sure THAT'S what you want to wear to the party? Do you really want to hang out or be seen with THAT person?"

Religion: "Are you being miserly with God or are you being led to give MORE? Remember the widow who gave all she had? Don't miss God's calling to further this righteous cause. Don't disobey and miss the blessing you will receive."

Waywards: "You mean you don't trust me? You think I'm lying to you? You want to control everything I do? How can you believe that about me?"

2)Pointing out things that aren't there: This can occur in at least two ways - one by appealing to someone's vanity or ego in order to ingratiate yourself or get something you want out of them. And then the flip side of that coin is the use of specious disparagement or putdowns to demean someone and disempower them.

Appealing to someones vanity: Manipulating your boss, someone in leadership, or a potential client/customer by falsely praising them in order to ingratiate yourself to them.

Salesman: " I can see you're a man of excellent taste who will drive a hard bargain."

Clique sycophant: "You are so funny! I think the joke you pulled on x was hilarious and it was just what he deserved. Did you see how everyone laughed? It was the perfect setup!"

Or disparagement: "You have never been there for me. If you really loved me you would have known what I needed without having to be told. I've never loved you. Why aren't you more like soandso's wife/husband?"

"You only say that because you are a foreigner." "You're not a true Christian, true Christians would ____." "A real man wouldn't let his wife ____."

3)'Experts' using their specialized knowledge - for ex. ministers, leaders, authorities, pros. etc. -people who have specialized knowledge or access to information which you haven't had or learned. They have the knowledge, wisdom or experience that will help you find the answers to your problems.

The seeker is especially vulnerable in this situation because they go in with lowered defenses, openness of heart and assume that the 'expert' can be trusted. Additional damage is done when the seeker is unaware that the expert may be pursuing their own priorities or falling to their own weaknesses and manipulating the seeker in the process.

For ex. Ministers, priests, therapists, teachers who sexually prey upon those who came to them for help.
Or when a broken BS manages to get the WS to go to marriage counseling only to be further devastated when the marriage counselor not only doesn't really support marriages but gives guidance that will further disembowel the BS and complete the demise of the marriage.

4)Revealing the secrets of others that have been shared privately. Commonly thought of as gossip, it can be seen as a positive - "x told me last week that she thought you were the most honest person she had ever met" or negative - "I know x is a friend of yours, but I wanted you to be aware that she told me that she had once flirted with the little league coach 6 years ago and I don't think she ever repented of it."

5)To use the power of the many over the power of the one. Used by children to ostracize the disliked (ooh, Timmy is gross and smells funny and anyone who hangs around him is a booger eater.), used by politicians to mobolize support via unity against a perceived common enemy (we must work together to conquer ___), etc. Mr.Cleveland writes, "It's powerful to have 'the many' on your side, and very difficult to maintain your position when you're up against the many." He references Orwell's observations on the power of group think.

I think Mr. Cleveland has made some excellent observations, what I find kind of creepy is while he acknowledged that gaslighting isn't nice because it is designed to trick people into self doubt, he goes on to promote this understanding of people and group dynamics as a way to increase sales and move up the ladder.

Ick.

I don't think gaslighting is so much about making another person feel crazy as it is a form of control for your own benefit, accomplished by manipulatively and dishonestly exerting your will over someone elses while pretending that you are doing it all out of concern for them.

More information about gaslighting written from a wife's viewpoint, but the information and understanding applies to either gender. This author identifies & discusses what she calls the "manipulative, cruel technique" and "horrific methods" of Gaslighting.
---------
Quotes & excerpts from "What is Gaslighting"
By Jeanne Sparks-Carreker,

Gaslighting is more commonly facilitated in an attempt to hide any actions or truths a person does not want brought to light.

We all know that healthy relationships need two partners who are both willing to listen, understand, share what is inside them. Without true caring for the other person, one cannot relate to the other in honest sympathy or heart-felt sincerity.

Gaslighting, however, would involve a denial of these things. When an abuser refuses to listen, appears to misunderstand what he is completely capable of understanding, or declines sharing his emotions, he is "withholding" a part of the essential intimate actions of the relationship. (When a partner really does not understand the other, then at least the intent to understand and compromise should be there, with perhaps a request for the partner to help them understand somehow.)

But when Gaslighting is the main technique and "withholding" is the tool, the abuser feigns confusion or a lack of understanding.

Normally, the victim is never entirely clear what the abuser's intentions are. Since the abuser responds quickly with anger, the victim starts to believe she may have "taken it all wrong," which is why she was quickly met with his anger,

"Blocking" and "diverting" is a method of Gaslighting whereby communication is controlled and manipulated. The abuser refuses to comment or answer (because he has already stated "I'm not going through this again tonight") and closes the discussion on things he "has already discussed."

By "diverting," the Gaslighting abuser changes the subject, and even accuses her of accusing him wrongly or in the wrong manner in which one is supposed to accuse. He may continue into the lie of how her absolute gaul in accusing him is actually the growing problem between them. The abuser diverts her attempts to gain clarity or sympathy, and "diverts" her from the actual subject by getting her to forget the topic at hand using irrelevant declarations in order to side-track her:

**You're just trying to have the last word.
**You think you know it all.
**You always have to be right.
**Where did you get a crazy/stupid/weird/dumb idea like that?
**No. Stop, before you say another word,let me say this...
**I shouldn't have to repeat myself.
**Whatever! (sarcastically).
**I don't see where this is going.
**That's just crap.
**Quit bitching.

A Gaslighting abuser often accuses his partner of having done something wrong (to justify his actions or to give misleading ideas as to why he treated her a certain way when she questioned him).

Alternatively, the goal of abusive accusations is to blame the partner for her anger, irritation, or insecurity, thereby proving the anger/abuse she is enduring is justified because she is at fault or in the wrong for the way she accused or reacted to something he did.

**You're just trying to pick a fight.
**You're looking for trouble.
**You're not the woman I thought I married.
**You're attacking me.
**You can't leave well enough alone.
**I've had it with your attacks/bitching/complaining.

"Trivializing" is confusing to her because, if she doesn't recognize Gaslighting by "trivializing" for what it is, she believes she somehow hasn't been able to explain to her mate just how important certain things are to her. "Trivializing" can be very subtle, so that the partner is left feeling depressed and frustrated but isn't quite sure why.

**That isn't important to us.
**You're going to let something like that come between us?

Abusive "forgetting" is also a method of Gas Lighting. The abuser conveniently forgets anything pertaining to what the victim has needed closure on.

Victims of Gaslighting often try to discuss incidents with their abuser to help resolve issues sometimes only in the hopes of avoiding the same hurt, explosion, or confusion in the future, though he will still deny it ever happened, with an accusatory comment like:

**What are you talking about?
**That never happened!

Eventually a Gaslighting abuser wins the ultimate war, the final argument, when she begins to collapse mentally and emotionally. The worst Gaslighting abusers will then mock her, humiliate her by sharing her "wrongdoings" (of searching for a solution) with their mutual friends, hoping to get a response of "I wouldn't listen to all that nagging, Man," from them. Perhaps it better eases his conscious to have others tell him it is all her, or that she's just a ******, or just a nag.

There are several significant threads here on MB about gaslighting. The two I look at most often are ones started by Mulan and Larry178. They can be found here:

[b][i] [color:"blue"] {Mulan's Gaslighting Thread} [/color] [/i][/b]

and here: [b][i] [color:"blue"] {Larry178's Gaslighting Thread} [/color] [/i][/b]

Also, if you're really determined to get as educated as possible on the subject, I can recommend the book The Gaslight Effect by Dr. Robin Stern. This is a comprehensive volume on this particular manipulative technique and it provides much information on how to spot gaslighting and how to stop letting the manipulator to control one's life.

LH

Personally I think that anyone who experiences this in their life should also read How to live with a Passive/Agressive Man. I think that book should have read...How to live with WS.

This is MY LIFE....

The mind games, the words, the inuendos, the turning it around to being my fault... All my life.

Or in my case, blames me. WH knows my top EN is SF. He withheld it for over a year, telling me and our marriage counselor I wasn't safe or he didn't trust me. She in turn took SF off the table for 3 months yelling at me, you hear your H, you aren't safe to him. I'm sitting there thinking, you are withholding the one thing that makes me feel alive and I should be ok with that. He WAS GOOD...

My friends have commented many times how they watched H hold back answering because he knew it drove me crazy. He even wrote in his diary that he got pleasure out of picking on me and pushing me away.

Maybe G-d truly is protecting me from him today because of all the games he played with me. The good news... I believe in his good and know that if he were to seek G-d out and live in G-ds will those things would stop. I don't know how I know, I JUST DO....

SG, maybe this time can be used as a season for you to ground yourself - become stronger within?

In the same way that some folks don't realize how good they have it until it's gone, some folks don't realize just how bad things have been until they have the opportunity to be away from it for a while and look at it from some distance.

Are you working on what would help you see through this kind of behavior in the future and figure out some responses that would keep you from repeating the patterns yet at the same time enable you to respond from a strong, loving place?

Examining the patterns that did repeat in your relationship and determining better ways of responding and dealing with them will help protect you from slipping into that which is all too familiar to you. Even with all the insight you have gained during this time, you might be amazed at how quickly you can slide back into old behaviors and thought patterns.

Without a doubt.

I am beginning to, however I think that Plan B will be the place where I can absolutely address this. Now I am in a place of doing a dance with him, being very careful what I say because he can manipulate me so good. But of course, that isn't what he is doing, it's my imagination.

Oh no, I wouldn't. When he left me he said that he didn't believe that things would change. The ironic part to this whole picture. Since he has been gone, so has my games. I don't have the inuendos, I don't have the "is this really", I don't have to justify how I am feeling or be told no. I don't have the tones to the answers that make me crazy. I don't have the anger. I don't have the craziness.

I have to be honest and say I played my own games. I kept the manipulation going rather than taking it head on and stopping it. But he always just told me what I wanted to hear and I believed him. I take my responsibility and need to learn how to recognize and not partake in it. This is vital. But I NEED TIME completely away from him.

When I think more about this, the brilliance of WH to say that he is really leaving me because of what I SAID. Of course, that leaves it out there that I could have said something different to change his mind.

He quite frankly lives in a world that is toxic. Now I don't know if it got worse with the A, but I do know it was there before that. I just didn't know how to live a healthy way in it. You are so right, I need to learn to develop strategies to live with it without it affecting me.

Because no matter, what, I have to accept this is part of him and I can't change him. Just love all his parts. I just need to not be a part of it.

So easier said than done.

Another book which clearly describes this subject is Stalking the Soul by Marie -France Hirigoyen She is a victimologist who describes the phenomenon from the standpoint of French culture .
It is interesting to see how the same techniques are applied in other settings and surprising to find how similar they are in spite of language differences.

This book was an eye opener for me

I googled it and found the following link that provides several pages of the book to read & preview. Anyone that is interested can read several pages from the book at the link following.

"Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity"

I think I'm going to add this one to my list of reading materials - it really goes into details and indicates how intentionally abusive the gaslighting can be.

Thanks for the recommendation!

Thanks for posting this.

Gaslighters start out as passive-aggressive controllers.

The progress to gaslighting if/when the passive-aggressive abuse doesn't work as well as they would like.

Gaslighting is really just passive-aggressive controlling on steroids.

Please see the two links in my sig line if you would like more info, especially in passive-aggressive controlling and abuse.

Gods help us all.
Mulan

Yes, Graphlin. Thank you for posting both of those posts. I am printing them out and taking them to my counselor on Thursday.

I am currently in a state of withdrawal myself. But I don't see it as a manipulation on my part. I see it as me needing to step back and access at this point. However, I do see where the withdrawal definitely can be a form of manipulation.

I'll be seeing my counselor later this week and will tell her how I've clammed up over the last couple of days.