Howdy Snow,
Well, at least you have come to a conclusion for yourself.

In the future, I would suggest that the only pillow talk you have is lovey, not about struggles. Save the struggles for the day time or another time, maybe pull him aside and let him know that you have something important to discuss with him. You don't want to create a pattern during affection that causes him to seize up or withdraw.

I'm glad that you are finding a place to get help. You can do this, Snow. I know that my IRE rises up during that time of the month. I'm learning to recognize the start and enforce positivity and combat negative thinking. I also do not engage in any struggles that I'm having at that time, for it has the potential to turn UGLY.

(((Snow)))

Snow, keep in mind that many ICs do not have marriage as their priority. I don't mean to discourage your from seeking counseling at all - I do think it is important to be aware of the differing goals between individual counseling and marital counseling. Some ICs can be instrumental in aiding the destruction of a marriage. This is just something for you to keep in mind when you are choosing a counselor. Good luck with it and good for you for seeking out a solution for your pain.

These are actual email exchanges we had this morning...
Read from the bottom, it started from my email and H responded and we went back and forth until he went silent...

Do we still have hope??

Snow

//////////////////////////////
H:

I'm really sorry to hear about that.

That's why I want to talk to a counselor and possibly find a solution for us once for all. We are in it and sometimes can't see things clearly from inside and we need some outside help, at least I admit I need help at this point. It will possibly relief my needs to talk with you since I will find a channel to talk and relief some of my bottled up emotions. I understand you are not in a position to help me at this point.

If this brings suicidal thoughts in you, I think it might be time for us to find ways to detach from each other a bit. To really be strong and focus on ourselves. To pamper ourselves if needed. Buy ourselves some flowers. I did when I was very depressed and didn't see any hope in us that day.

We also need to understand who we are and what we want to achieve in life. Focus on the bigger picture. What we did to survive when we had nothing, only ourselves, no partners, no kids, no love, but we did survive. What our fears are, is it being alone or facing a new start? We need to face that fear and go through it if necessary. We can survive, under any condition we can.

Even when I first learned the news and wanted to end my life, it was a very fleeing thought and I felt ashamed that I even thought about that. I believe you are a strong person too and I believe you can find a way out of this. If it means without me, you can make that happen also. We can make it happen with as little impact as we possible can. But I don't want to make any decisions before I learn more about myself, and what I want to achieve in life, through a counselor I hope.

Take care. No matter what, we will find a way...

I am in my own depression also and the medication doesn't help me a bit. I just need to sooth myself and find a way to survive each day. Talking to a counselor is my last ditch effort in helping myself, and hopefully help you when I gain more ability.


xxx


......................................................
I was not in the driver's seat, and I dnd't know what happened, and I can not talk about what you wanted to talk about. doing that will set me back and reinjure me.
The question here is you keep wanting to live in the past. You are creating this emotionally stressed environment at home (and at my work too via emails) which keep pulling me back to depression., I can not live in this environment physically, if this lasts a nother few years, I don;t think I can physically survive. It gets me suicidal thoughts

////////////////////////
> H:
>
> I understand your frustration. I truly do.
>
> If both of us had been in a car accident, and your broken bones were
> all healed in 12 months (actually I don't believe you healed either),
> the condition of *your* "health" would have nothing to do with the
> fact that my head injury hasn't fully recovered yet. And going with me
> to the "doctor" is nothing more than an indication that *I* am still
> healing from the injury and that your attendance might show me how to
> 'change the bandage' for me so that I *can* reach a place of full healing.
>
> The other problem I'm having is that in this car accident, you were at
> the driver's seat and you knew all the twists and turns and
> mishandlings that led to the accident and you know how to avoid it
> next time and possible learned a thing or two and grew some confidence
> in your future driving.
>
> But I was completely taken by surprise and it might be understandable
> that without having the full picture and explore the mistakes you made
> and I made and what led to it, I will never feel safe to seat on that
> passenger seat again.
>
> No I wouldn't be bringing it up if we had explored it together in some
> depth. We have never discussed it in any depth about how and why it
> happened and what to do to avoid a recurrence. We need to explore
> those before I can find peace and feel safe and let it rest.
>
> Hope this makes a little sense to you. And I'm sorry for the pain and
> frustration you have been feeling. I wish I could take that away from
> you and I had been trying, believe me, but I need some help myself now
> to pull myself out before I can help anybody else, even the ones I
> love deeply.
>
> Thank you for writing me. It helps me to understand you better.
>
> Take care,
>
> xxx
>
>
>
>
//////////////////////////////////////////////////>
> I don't understand what's going on. You seem to keep making something
> out of nothing... I wonder when you can be normal.
> I just didn't want to talk about that, that is the only thing I
> remember said.
> If you keep talking about that, our lives can not go on, that is
> common sense.
>
//////////////////////////////////////////////>
> > It's another nice day outside, hope you enjoy it.
> >
> > I couldn't sleep well those couple of nights. Some of the words you
> > said that night cut me really deep and brought a lot of fear out to
> > the surface. I felt that my heart couldn't get closer to you. Some
> > part of me just refuse to go closer, but it hurts me a lot to stay
> > separated also.
> >
> > I do find comfort sleeping with the kids, but I know it's not the
> > right thing to do at this point. I need a lot of physical touch
> > nowadays and I feel that asking those from you don't make me feel
> > happy, to the contrary, it makes me feel weak and not respectful to
> > myself. It makes me feel lacking and needy, which I don't want to
> > feel. And I know my asking makes you feel bad also.
> >
> > I would appreciate it if you could initiate some affection without
> > my asking, like touching/holding my hands, coming close to snuggle
> > in bed and initiate some kissing. In the morning before you leave,
> > I'd appreciate you initiate a kiss good bye without me asking for
> > it. Those will help boost my self respect and will make my love and
> > respect for you grow and take roots in my heart. And it will help me
> > pull myself out of a depressed mood and lift my spirit a bit.
> > Without those, I'm sure I can pull myself out in time also, but it
> > would take some time and I might grow in anther direction which
> > might be harder to come close again.
> >
> > I hate to ask for those things. But without asking, I don't see us
> > going anywhere.
> >
> > I will talk with counselor about our issues and possibly get to the
> > roots of it. I have a long list of things that I need you to do to
> > help me heal, but most of the things will be emotionally
> > uncomfortable or even painful for both of us. The problem is without
> > that, I don't see us getting out a destructive pattern like this. I
> > think the cycle gives us both a signal that there are some thing
> > that we really need from each other that we can't give that needs to
> > be addressed one way or another.
> >
> > In the mean time, I would appreciate your empathy you could muster
> > in your heart to help me go through this difficult phase in my life.
> >
> > I believe both of us deserve better. I believe we have deep love
> > toward each other in our heart of hearts. We deserve a marriage with
> > our hearts touching each other without any holes in them. Scars will
> > be there, that's ok, but no holes. If we are sure we can't achieve
> > this no matter how hard we try, it would be a very loving thing for
> > both of us to learn to release each other's heart. I have the
> > hardest time doing that also. But before we explore every tools we
> > have, it's a shame to call it quit.
> >
> > I care about you and understand your pain and your struggle and
> > appreciate your effort very much in helping me and the kids at this
> > trying time of ours. Hopefully we can come out of this being a
> > stronger and truly intimate couple and best friends for life as we
> > started out to be 20 years ago.
> >
> > I really care about you.
> >
> > xxx

OMG - your H sounds like a really insensitive clown who's entirely wrapped up in himself. The A might be over, but the self-centeredness remains.

He wonders when YOU can be "normal"?? I think HE is in more need of IC than you!

My husband says the same kind of stuff. He doesn't want to keep talking about his A (and I think I've learned all i need to, so that's mostly ok), but he also is acting very selfishly. He says he doesn't need affection, so he doesn't want to snuggle, kiss, hug, etc. Even during SF, he doesn't want to kiss. We went to MC about 6 times together. I've gone a few more times by myself. He doesn't want to go anymore. I am trying not to ask him for anything at this point, trying to let him determine the pace and method of our recovery, but the end result is that I am very unhappy. I guess I can do that for awhile, but I wonder when he is going to grow up and be willing to do things to make ME happy? This selfish stuff, where he gets the benefits of marriage and I get the responsibility, sucks.

Sorry no advice, just empathy. If I knew how to make a person stop being selfish, I would surely tell you.

Um, nope, it's not common sense that a festering MRSA infection will get better without ferretting out a course of recovery. It's HIS sense, and fear or laziness or anger or sense of entitlement, and the list could go on.

His response is that he wants to just bury it and move on, and your response is that this will not be possible for you.

I'm not saying that you can't recover, because I'm in the thick of it, too, Snow. Hopefully, someone will come along with better info about recovery from a more RECOVERED point of view, maybe having survived what you are talking about.

I know. He needs more IC than I do. But I truly feel that I need to get a grip of this and get more clarity of what I should do. Because I really can't change him and what I can change is me.

I think he is living in fear. At least before our email exchange, he was being so attentive and trying to help a lot with my daily routines. And when I had to take a sleeping pill to sleep last night, he was concerned and asked what he could do to make me feel more comfortable.

As long as I do not mention his past, he would do anything, including cutting one of his arm for me I guess. As soon as I mention or even hint the past he instantly changes to this selfish monster that I don't even recognize...

I am really at a loss on what to do next.

Snow

Next time he asks you what he can do, simply tell him "answer my questions, and help me move on, too."

Snow I agree with SL. Not knowing him it does sound like FEAR. Unless he's willing to face that and overcome it's hard to say what the outcome could be.

I know what FEAR does to me and it's not good. I hope he'll realize that for you.

Have you found a counselor? Someone else mentioned that sometimes IC aren't necessarily good for M building. I'd ask questions in that regard in addition to what you need in acquiring a counselor.

Keeping you in my prayers.

Thanks mvg.

I know him and I think it's fear also.

After his very selfish emails yesterday morning, he came home in a down mood. But I smiled at him and instantly I sensed that his mood was better. At night he continued his search for a steambath for our basement remodelling. And when we slept, he actually initiated touching. It was a bit clumsy at first, but we both got comfortable. No words, but we did feel close. This morning, he said good bye ever so softly and he actually initiated a big hug and kiss good bye. It is the first time he initiated that.

Can you belive it? A man who can talk so selfishly actually listened to my request and is doing it now? As long as I don't mention his my desire to discuss the pass I guess??

Anyway, he listened, right? So I should be appreciative for that, and I am. I do still love him very much...

Now you guys all know what's my struggle here and the dynamics between us. I know we are now heading to a new few weeks of nice and cozy meeting needs and feeling loved, etc. But the problem is still unsolved and should I just let it be??

I'm very puzzeled. But I am in a good mood today !!

Snow

I wouldn't let it be, snow. I'm not telling you to badger him, but you two must find a way to get thru this together.

I still believe that you need to work on getting you anger in check, in whatever forms it manifests. You are doing a great deal of harm to your own health and happiness harboring this anger. It can suppress your immune system, bring on depression which can wreak further havoc.

I didn't need a counselor for this, but I did need to read and practice methods to recognize the anger and work thru it, on my own. There was nothing PWC could have said to help me. There were things that he could have done, but I was so wrapped up in the anger, I didn't ask or didn't request the proper things.

Now, instead of anger, I approach PWC with love. For instance, yesterday I didn't get out of bed before he left the house, so I didn't get a kiss. Soooo, I emailed him a KISS from me, saying that I MISSED it and wanted to give him one. This morning, he came in the bedroom, said good morning, and I'll see you later, then he leaned across the bed and gave me a kiss.

This says to me that I have to keep it up, that *I* was dropping the ball. MOST OF ALL, I wasn't caring enough about myself to let the anger go and work thru what was causing it.

Read up on codependency. It helped me a GREAT DEAL.

Don't be puzzled, look at the pattern. When you are happy, he is happy. When you are not, the guilt and pain and loss is eating him up inside. Maybe NOW is not the time to discuss the A. I would let him know that you will want to talk about it, for you have many unanswered questions, but you want for him to feel comfortable, and you need to work on your anger before you have the ability to HEAR him.

Work on the anger. IT will take a while, but it's worth it. You will also not rely solely on him for affection to feel comfort, comfort will partly come from within.

Get on the Goddess thread. Focus on yourself, you deserve that attention.

I guess my diatribe has gone on long enough. Hope this helped in some way, shape or form. It's what is working for me, for now.

SL makes some good points in her post.

I'd like to suggest that there's one possible alternative to explain his behaviour though - by putting on the "bad-guy" attitude when you bring up what you want from him, and paying more attention to doing "good-guy" stuff when you don't (sort of like a reward for your silence), he may be trying to manipulate you into not bringing up your concerns again.

I very much agree with this. It is a manipulation; he may not be aware he is manipulating, but he is 'massaging' the situation so as to not have to face facts. And it is working.

I would say also that his actions have something to do with his shame, as well as his fear. In which case you can make it clear you are not going to attack him, but merely try to understand him; become his best friend; help him open up and examine his FOO issues and any others that have contributed to this place. Together. He needs you on his side, but not at the point of abandoning what you are due - his honesty and repentance.

ooo, I have to agree with this particular point.
Also, if you find that your are REPEATING yourself, it is wasted time.

Again, I am no expert on recovery, but I would have to say YOU are at a STICKING point, hitting a wall.

If discussing the A is the hill you are willing to die on, then you need to make that perfectly clear. If you are not SURE, then you might consider focusing on yourself, making some headway with the anger, and THEN reassessing the sitch.


What do you need to know about the A's? Can you make a list and give it to him, asking him if he can answer them, in any way he see's fit (writing it down, emailing, answering one question here or there, or sitting down and getting it over with), but answering them all, fully. Then walk away. Again, if he is not willing, and this is a deal breaker for you, then you need to state that, too.

I hear you, Snow. For me, affection has been THAT thing for me. PWC shows me some, here and there, but I'm the major initiator. The fact that I see change AT ALL is something that I'm allowing to motivate me to keep up my work, emailing him positive things, being joyful, laughing. Since I've started this, I actually feel happier INSIDE. We all have our limits; I obviously have not reached mine.

edited to add...
Have you mentioned that you are experiencing the process of grief, and without all of the information you need, you are stuck. Ask him to imagine watching someone die veeeery slowly. You know that death is imminent, but you watch the SUFFERING daily, every millisecond that passes is filled with this grief of what is happening and what is to come, and you want to move on, but you don't see an END in sight. You would like to define these answers to your questions an end to this current DEATH.

The future may hold more questions, for sure, but the WORST of things is probably now.

Hi guys:

Thank you so much for helping me here. And giving me so much to think about.

I really agree that he is trying to manipulate me or even intimidate me into silence. I almost said it in my post yesterday but thought maybe I was over thinking. But now, I'm pretty clear that his behavior says very loud to me that he is doing that, maybe subconciouly, but he is sending me very clear messages by his behavior. This has been repeated almost once per months for a year now. And it is time for this dance to change.

Is it the hill I'm willing to die for at this time? I'm not so sure. That's why I really want to find some clarity within myself first. Most of the time, especially when H is caring and loving and making all the amends, I don't feel that those answers are that important for me. We did create so much beautiful moments already in this recovery and we talked about our future all the time and he seems truly looking forward to spending the rest of his life with us. Also he changed so much, actually both of us changed so much after last March and we are creating a great marraige together.

But I'm not willing to continue being manipulated into silence, that much I know. And I will keep fighting. I want to find the best way. So far I found that the old dance doesn't work, and I need to change my steps.

I will clear my mind and write down the questions I need from him and give them to him. I don't know what I'm afraid of and why I haven't done that yet. Maybe I just need to search inside me to know what my reactions will be if he puts on his ugly mask and pulls out his "suicidal thoughts" tactics again and flat out refuses to do anything about it.
Do I call it quit at that time? I need to understand myself a little better I guess, that's why I want to find an IC to help me.

I'm sure I have huge codependent issues. H has huge issues too. H has always been emotionally untouchable, it seems that he is so afraid to show his vulnerability to anybody. I was the same way, but his A made me change a lot in that aspect. Can you believe we never even kissed goodbye, never, even once after our marriage? It's mainly a culture thing, we were taught to show love by service only and that's what H is doing now. So his gradually learning to show affections is a big change. And when I see this kind of impovement and actually for the very first time, getting close to each other's heart, it makes it so very hard to go backwards and dive into the darkness again.

I'm also thinking about another thing...do any of you have experience in actually fully accepting WH's and his perceptions as his truth and actually validate that? I know he felt that his A was true love, you know of course I don't agree, but does it help to agree that his feelings were valid to him? I think he felt attacked and invalidated and he walled himself up in his inner feelings because he knows I would discount his feelings, and I did that many times already...

Thanks again for all the input. I will write more later. Need to get back to work now.

Snow

feelings have no truth

there is no such thing as a false feeling
there is no such thing as a true feeling

feelings just "are"

they have no IQ
they have no morality
they have no justice

and, most importantly .... feelings change
they are never permanent
they always change

so, when one uses feelings (which always can change) as the ONLY yardstick by which to measure whether or not something was/is "true love" .... it is measuring foolishly

consistency over time - measures love

once time has passed and you are no longer in the shock of discovery

you can stop yourself from making any judgements on his feelings

remember - there is no true or false for feelings

"I understand that is how you feel." goes further than "I disagree with your feelings."

YOu are not in the business of changing him, or his perspective. You CAN'T. Has he RECENTLY said anything about his A being true love?

He may or may not still believe this. It's not for you to try to educate or change. Your part is to deal with acceptance that he is who he is, and in everything he does, he is showing you who he is.

He feels like he feels. They are feelings, that usually FADE with time. Feelings are not the stuff that a good marriage are made of. Feeling good is great, but it's what you do together, when things aren't so good, that shows you what your M is made of, what you are made of. Beliefs are a much better source to rely on, IMO.



Why can't you tell him that you are seeing this? He may tell you that he feels bullied. If he does, then you can open a dialogue about HOW to have these conversations, but that you will not be able to get past this until your questions are answered. There is no way around it but thru it.

I dunno, just typing (thinking) out loud...

Hi Pepper:

Thank you so much for posting to me.

I know. I know feelings have no right or wrong. And no, he hasn't said anything like "it's true love" or anything like that, but I saw that in his sad eyes, in his reactions after Dday and during his withdrawal and now in his refusal to answer questions. All those point to me that that's how he felt about what happened.

I have the hardest time validating his feelings in that. I do want to be his best friends, but I just can't face the fact that he truly loved OW. It just hurts so bad whenever I think about it. Maybe he sensed it would hurt me very badly if he told me the whole truth as he felt it, maybe he felt I would leave him if I know. I don't know. I know I have never made it safe for him to express himself freely in that sense. And I don't know how to. This is another reason I think I need some help.

I'm hopeing finding help from an IC will change my dance step and also make it clear to H that I'm serious about this and I'm trying my very best.

Thanks.

Snow

No, SL, he hasn't said anything about his A being "true love". But it was so easy to see it from this reactions after Dday. I saw him crying for the very first time the day he ended his A and he asked me "what kind of man am I??OW told me that I was the only person she ever trusted in this whole world and now I just betrayed and abandoned her"...Can you believe that's what he said??

I'm sure his feelings have changed a lot since that day. But I still remember the pain in his words and it hurts a lot when I think about that.
And the more we rebuild, the more he feels love for me, I think the more he can't face himself during the A. His only desire now is to bury it, and to bury it at all cost...

Yes, I told him I felt that I was intimidated to not to talk about the past. I believe I told him more than once. But he didn't have anything to say about it.

At this time, I am not actually feeling sad or pity for myself. I AM feeling stronger and I am finding ways to reach out to him. The Godness threat helps too. I read there regularly but didn't post much. I will take care of ME and my needs first and foremost.

Thanks for your support SL, You are a true friend.

Snow