It's in the "Recovery" forum. Titled "Windstopped's puff".

Mopey,

Your DJs are kicking your own marriage in the gut, IMO. I believe they are giving you feelings of depression, anger, frustration, and great fear. And that's you doing it to you.

I've read you for a long time...saw a lot of similarities in my marriage through yours...from both sides. I'm not saying my opinion to harm or judge you.

Going back to your first post on this thread...did you own your trigger as you, triggering? You had an expectation of what WS's reaction to your trigger SHOULD be...your trigger and your expectation.

You've expected him to stop lying by commission or omission. Your expectation.

Your half is your choice to stop believing WS. You know he lies, withholds, misrepresents...all the levels of self-deception...and yet you continue to expect honesty.

You can choose to not believe temporarily...and you can help your relationship by doing so. If you want to...

All those things you listed that WS thinks/believes...his concerns...which ones have you found really in yourself?

I'm like LoBoy...I don't want to enable you...and I do want you to feel better...feel in love with your H...in Intimacy...and I respect you greatly, know you can take what you asked for...honesty.

I don't believe you want to do harm to your partner...and you are doing harm to him, your marriage and yourself. In your control, even though he is not.

W2S about enmeshment...you expected his feelings to be in response to your feelings...you chose to not see valid remorse...you were looking at him, his reactions, not your own trigger, where it came from, owning it as your own, sharing you were having it...you were looking at WS to fix it.

He can't. He can stay present, hear your trigger, see you understand it thoroughly, and know his part...not the whole...because that IS a remorseful action. Not discounting your feelings, not DJing you shouldn't feel that trigger.

My intent is to be a friend of your marriage,

LA

Hey Mopey! I wanted to touch base with you b4 I go watch some TV. I've been on here a lot and my brain hurts!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I read all through Windstopped's post(s) and responses. I didn't have a lot to add yet b/c I am still thinking about it all. I don't want to jump into posting b4 I have a chance to mull it over.

One thing does concern me...and BK touched on it. You need to stop reading each other's posts for now and posting on each other's threads. It is upsetting for both of you. Not good! I am concerned that the anger level and AOs have reached a point where you may need some time apart until you can both come back to the table with your anger under control. Maybe it would help...you just HAVE to stop hurting each other. I am not saying that you don't have a right to be hurt....but the way it is being dealt with will not get you any closer as a couple. It will only continue to drive you apart.

I know you are upset by his post, but I just cannot figure out why...I read it through a couple of times, and I hear a lot about his personal issues and his past. He is owning a lot of his mistakes, he is reading here and M books, he is (or says he is) being open with you about phone/email/etc, he has taken a lie detector test...I think he is really trying to get it. I am concerned about him getting too mixed up in the past, when he should be focusing on the HERE and NOW. But sometimes reflection of the past is necessary to correct old habits...What I don't see is a lot of "whiney wayward" justifications, etc. Actually there was not a lot about his As at all. Is that what upset you? Just trying to figure some of it out is all...

My point is...with the way things were presented to you- like a leaky faucet- it has made you completely mistrust everything about him. Everything he says, does, feels, etc. That is why I suggested you spend some time apart and work through some of the anger b4 it is too late. I want the best for you guys and the road to recovery is not covered in AOs, DJs and LBs, ya know. That's where you (both) are...

I hope we can help you figure this out, hon...you deserve the very best!!!


((((((MOPEY))))))

Wow LaLa that was a GREAT post...I agree 100%!

Mrs. W

So do I!!

I pretty much agree with you guys too.

I have too much to say and my head hurts. But briefly where I'm at now....

I am convinced more than ever that I need to try to heal on my own now.

I do have too much anger towards him. It's a secondary emotion to pain.


I never expected him to fix it or undue it, all the damage that is. I've always known that wasn't possible. I just wanted him to try to meet my needs that I've expressed to him that I thought would help get me through this recovery.

The things he listed in his post were partially incorrect, of the things I asked for, and I asked for those things quite some time ago. I asked for them because it was like pulling teeth to get anything out of him regarding the truth of our life and what's he has been up to, and I thought if he did it in writing it would be easier. Details of the affair. That stuff seems so distant to me now though. I am too scared to ask any questions.

The things I'm talking about above have been "recovery needs" of mine that I have asked for and were discussed with MB's own Jennifer Harley. In fact she suggested some of them. All doable. Windstopped let me know that it was an irritant to him and gave me little pieces if I was starving. He chooses to not meet my needs for openeness and honesty, empathy and compassion as well. And those are at the top of my list. And the lying and blaming me for him not feeling safe compounds my hurt. It increases my desire to make it stop.

That's where the pain comes in and causes anger in me. That and a lot of other behaviors that are hurtful to me.

I have felt more manipulated than cherished.

As far as the hitting goes BK, I slapped him in the face once a looooong time ago, probably in the first year or two of our marriage, for saying something to me that cut me like a knife. He turned around and knocked the chit of my face. Like a guy would hit a guy.

I have caught myself wanting to hurt him after a d-day or a lie. But I held back.

After the 4th d-day, when he got all self righteous and defensive, I wanted to hurt him as bad as he and his ****** hurt me. I wanted to beat the crap out of him, and I was, but I stopped when I looked at his face. It still haunts me to this day. *edited to add* At one point my son came out and pinned me to the ground. It was bad all around. I talked about that on LaLa's thread.

I have many times released my pain by yelling at him. I was frustrated because I felt he doesn't hear me. It does have to stop but I don't think I can while he is still hurting me. I know I have work to do on myself. We're hurting each other, agreed.

I respect all of your opinions and I thank you for them and your honesty.

Please keep it coming. LaLa, it's hard on this side too.

I will try to articulate why his post upset me, if it still does tommorow, and then I'll respond some more. I'm pretty wiped out emotionally.

Thanks again.

*Edited

(((((mopey)))))

We're here for you, hon. Whenever you are ready!

Hi LaLa. Thanks for thinking about me.

I just got back from my counseling appt. She agrees that we need to separate. Winstopped and I cannot heal while we're both abusing each other. He feels I abuse him in certain ways and vice versa.

My counselor is working with me to get to know my parts and what to do with them. She is also encouraging me to listen to my gut which has been right all of these years. I will look to her, and you guys, and a few other people as well to make me accountable. And I'm hoing for a little compassion in there too, cuz I could sure use some.

My heart is heavy and I am tired. I feel confident that I am making the right choice. It's sad and it's killing me but I honestly feel this move is necessary.

I'm still not ready to get back yet to all of you fine folks who are helping to straighten me out, but I will be back.

Growing pains suck.

How is mopey tonight?

Stay here with us, hon...don't shut us out.. compassion we can do! We'll help you get through this, one day at a time.

What is the plan?

Hi mopey-

You've been there for me and I want to be there for you. I've gone through a lot of what you describe- our husbands are a LOT alike.

I know the other board is depressing to you (started my own thread there last month). But I really see you very reactive to your husband's behavior and I think the exercises will still help. The goal here is to detach: you can be happy no matter what he does!! Honestly. There is so much peace out there for you- I wish you could see it like I do now. You don't have to be in pain or live in fear.

Do you have any S-Anon meetings near you? If not, try Al-anon. Please...

{{{mopey}}}
~Saturn

Hi Saturn, thanks for stopping in.

I'm glad to see the "other Place" is helping you. I DO get totally depressed when I go over there. I'll take a looksy at it later.



No, I don't think so. Not and live with him too. I am too reactive because his behaviors, or lack thereof, do hurt me and I am seriously losing my feelings for him. I think I need to step back and separate what is mine and start working on it.



What's your secret? Detach? I feel dissed by him SR. I have already tried to detach and let him do his own thing while I do mine and somehow, it's just not working.

As far as the meetings goes....been there done that. I never found a place that I wanted to stay at....

Thanks for caring SR. I really do want to work through this mess and come out on the other side with him.

Hey LaLa....the plan.....where the heck do I start? Oh yeah...with me. Doh! I should write a list, hunh? That's enough to make me freeze....lol....still working on the plan. I have a lot of work to do.

Windstopped is suppose to be leaving tommorow.

Thanks for being here. Did I already say that this sucks?


Hi LA.....your posts take me about a week to digest.....lol....I think I may have enough nerve to answer some questions later tonight though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...lol.....

Thank you so much for trying to help Windstopped and I. We are a mess aren't we? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yep, me likey lists!!! All your best qualities and good things in your life. Refer to it often. Make a note to yourself that every week or so you will add one more thing to that list as you begin to find other things you like and that make you happy or a better person. Pretty soon you won't have time for list-making because you are too busy enjoying LIFE!

I'm glad you are on tonight. I'll be back in a bit...

Today is a bad day. A very bad day. I feel like such a failure. I know it's not all my fault, but geez, we had the tools.

Yesterday I seemed to be a little bit at peace with the decision to separate. Things were cordial around here. Windstopped gave me hug at one point out of now where. When he caught me crying he said we didn't have to separate and I said we had to do something. I went to bed last night so sad and hurt that it has come to this.

I woke up even more upset. I started getting angry that Windstopped didn't try hard enough IN MY OPINION. Yes, I know he is working on himself and that is critical! But I didn't feel like he was working on the recovery needs that I personally needed from him to get over this. I was getting angry over the fact that I was going to be feeling even more alone with him gone. But it hurt to have him here too.

Like the reactive idiot I am, I let all of that anger boil to the surface as I watched him read without conversing with me all morning. I started crying to let it out but the anger was still there. I had to get ready to go to a prior committment that I had and he was in our room shaving. His open suitcase on the bed. I grabbed my clothes and walked out and slammed the bedroom door. Angry outburst #1.

After he finished shaving he came to talk to me but I was upset and told him that I hate him and I felt it (AO #2). Then of course I felt horrible because I hurt him. I know I still care because it hurts when I hurt him.

A few more words were exchanged about my unhappiness on it getting this far (and I am quite sure there were several DJ's in there) and then I told him that I think I need no contact. I know me, and I want him to beg me to stay and do what ever it takes to get through this. I want him to break down crying and tell me how sorry his is for doing too little too late. I would have EXPECTATIONS that would hurt me if he didn't do them so I just want the pain to stop.

I know it's not good to have expectations because you'll be upset if they're not met. And I understand that in everyday life. But when it comes to infidelity and the way he treated me our whole marriage, I guess I expected my husband to meet my needs in the recovery area and I was upset. Trouble is, I don't think I can heal with him without it.

I never thought I asked for too much. I needed what I asked for. I will feel like I am settling if it doesn't happen. He has done too much to me to settle and "get over it".

So I have to do what I need to recover. I know I am hurt and I change like the wind, but I have always known that I wouldn't be able to truly recover without some things, like taking my needs into consideration.

I may have just put the nail in the coffin in my marriage.

I think I really will curl up with a bottle in front of me tonight.

Hi LaLa. After I pick myself up off the floor tommorow I will concentrate on my list. Good and bad.

I read your thread. I think it's a really good thing that you and W2S spend some quality time together this weekend. Be good to each other. I know you will.

Thanks for checking in.

I actually have ALL EVENING (aren't you LUCKY..harhar) until he gets home to spend the weekend together.

I'll tell you what...I will get myself a little somfin to drink and we will make a night of it, sista!

You are not a failure. You know that...it's just very, very scarey to be alone. You are allowed to be scared, but you are NOT allowed to feel like a failure! (don't make me get out LALA'S BOOOK OF RULES...LOL)

Seriously, here is my thing with you guys...I know you've separated before and then gotten back together, but this has not worked to help your recovery in the past. I'm sure you have heard the term "dry drunk" and know what it means...don't make this another "dry recovery." Really do things to uplift yourself and try to stop relying on him (or anyone else for that matter) to make you happy. You may not have made that list yet, but you know the things that will go on it.

It is soooo hard to pick yourself up and do anything when you are depressed. For me, it is hard to get my housework done every day or simple things that I know would make me feel better right now. Luckily, my obsession with having a clean house (OCD) keeps me plugging away, but it feels like torure sometimes 'cuz I want to just curl up in a ball and sleep for about five years!

So, I'm here with ya tongiht and we will figure this stuff out together, K!

Be back in a bit!

You know what else? I feel that some BSs may think that I am pathetic because here I am, my WS is back and working on himself and I just asked him to leave.

I guess I am one of the "unrecoverable" ones.

And just for the record, I didn't "kick" Windstopped out 3 or 4 times in the last few months like he said. I did "kick" him out that many times throughout this whole ordeal though. About one for each d-day! I also told him about 5 or more times in the past that maybe we should separate.

The last time I asked him to leave was about 3 months ago when he lied to me. I didn't let him come home for 10 days until he admitted that he lied to me.

Anyway, I know it can't be that way this time. This has to stick.

no you aren't and i know how you feel..... cause i was the same way with certain things when my WH was home "trying" to recover..... and the first night this time when my husband left was hard...... and some nights are easier than others..... i just hope in the long run things will work out for you two....i will keep you in my prayers

Oh LaLa, thanks a mill. I feel like chit!





Can we please talk about this? I do do things that bring me self esteem that lift me up. Not a ton since d-day granted, but I have. I've lost 30 lbs and look pretty good, I went to gym for awhile (going back Monday) stayed in school, etc. Those things help lift me up.

Why is it that I CANNOT rely on Windstopped in this particular area to make me happy? Why can't I rely on him to meet my needs for recovery? Why can't I rely on him for emotional support period? Doesn't Harley say to meet each other's needs? "For a successful marriage you need to do things to make your spouse happy and not do things to make your spouse unhappy."

So, should I just be o.k. with him not providing me with what I asked for? It's not like everyday things where I may expect him to help around the house, etc. The things I expect and rely on him for right now were recovery needs. I cannot fathom asking someone to forgive you for all he has done and not try to meet their recovery needs.

And the message it sends to me is that I am not worth HIS effort. I don't feel worthless myself, never have, but when I put him into the equation I do.

My rant for the friggin year.