Let me see if I can give you a clear picture of what you are dealing with here so you can understand.

Think of a falling down DRUNK. He says and does things that are crazy, insane and irrational. The only way for him to possibly recover is to seperate him from the booze. He may say and do alot of nutty things while drunk, but his story will change dramatically once sober.

It is the same with your wife. She doesn't know how she feels, she is intoxicated with the addiction of the affair. BUT....once contact ends with the OM and she has withdrawn, recovery is possible.

So for now focus on one thing: ending contact with the OM. Unless and until that happens, there is no need to even be concerned about recovery. Hope that makes sense.

Well I tend to agree that she is the classic WW. But she doesn't see it that way so how do I ever get her to go through the MB stuff. She is obviously nowhere near wanting to do that at this time.

Right now I can't even talk to her she is so upset and angry that I wouldn't just let her go off and have her fantasy life. She'll say "I'm not doing what I want to do, I'm here. Because you kept saying we could work things out so here I am to see if we can be that 1% that does". The 1% is her I never gave her any percentage.

I would just like to hear from someone who has been in WW position and can tell me what I can expect in the near future. Right now doesn't seem like she'll ever want to give us a chance. That she's just here so later she can say "I tried".

Lexxxy is an excellent source.

She is already posting to you!


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, thanks Mel. I do understand that and I know it to be true. But sometimes I lose focus of it and just need to hear it again.

And if lexxxy is a great source I will trust her.

Sorry still kind of new here and don't know everyone's story yet.

This is EXACTLY what happened to me.

My H was pining for OW for years. I could tell she was into him as well, but they were "just friends." He refused to end the friendship when I asked, so I knew it was more than that.

In the midst of my turmoil, I asked him to go through an emotional needs survey with me. He claimed that I met all of his needs, except that I didn't trust him.

Several months later, I found a text msg from OW to WH. She was telling him that it had made her "happy" when he called her earlier in the day, and thanked him for the "deposit." I was floored and confronted WH, stating that he had introduced MB principles to OW. He flatly denied this. I threatened to tell his parents. We had a horrible, horrible fight. We never recovered from it. I think he knew I was on to his manipulations and things would never be the same -- I'd outlived my usefulness if I wasn't going to protect his reputation anymore.

Later, OWH showed me emails where OW was telling WH that it was going to be hard for my WH to leave me since I met all his needs. She promised to try to do that for him. Then there were other emails where they were methodically discussing whether or not the other person was aware that a need for affection had arisen. They were consciously building a love relationship.

And then my WH told me on DDay that their feelings of love for each other came as a complete surprise.

Just a note: before I knew he was plotting to cheat on me, he was asking me questions about sexual techniques - we were each other's first. Or at least he was my first, and if he had been with others, he hadn't been concerned about pleasuring them. He didn't put a ton of effort into that for me, but I wasn't at all insistent upon anything, not knowing the difference.

I didn't know the answers to his questions, so I sent him to a Christian website with articles and forums - kind of like MB. He told me he had some "sex goals" to do some new things to provide me more pleasure, but nothing new happened in bed for us. Then he started getting disdainful, and I noticed some weirdness and distance.

So, basically, I schooled my WH in how to capture OW. She should watch out. He's a trained predator now.

She won't have anything to do with any recovery plan until her affair is over. So, just expect that this is normal.


"LET HER?" "LET HER?" Remind her she is not your endentured servant. You are not the SHERIFF or her POPPA DADDY. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> She is not being held at the point of a gun. You don't have the power to "let her" do anything. And then tell her that her toenails look pretty and ask her what she wants for dinner. But, don't waste your time trying to reason with a falling down drunk. That would be silly.

Don't argue with her, but just politely and firmly let her know your boundaries. You won't go along with any plan that does not involve recovery for TWO PEOPLE. Not THREE. You won't be her "friend," but you will be her husband.


What you can expect is a lot more fogbabble until her affair is over. If all contact is ended, then you can expect a general lessening of the fog. If not, you can expect more of the same.

I hope she does end contact with the OM and send him a nc letter, but I have strong sense that she is highly addicted to him and it may take more than that. I hope I am wrong.

Let me just put this another way. Your MAIN FOCUS must be on her ending her affair. That is what the MC should be focused on; that is what you have to focus on. Because until contact ends, there will be no recovery. Until the alcoholic puts down the drink, he will NEVER SOBER UP. Got dat? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Today is OM's last day at work. So the next few days and weeks will be very telling.

During my WW's babble the other night I did tell her she was free to leave. I said I wouldn't stop her and that she could go anytime she wanted. I am not keeping her at the house. I have told her a few times the past month that she needed to move out if she couldn't decide what to do. Each time she came back and said she couldn't "survive" going back to OM and would work on marriage.

She mentioned last night that the counselor told her she needs to not be with either one of us right now and figure out herself and pray a lot that then the answer would come. The counselor told her that the statistics say after she has done this most WS choose to try and work things out with their BS. I don't necessarily agree with what the counselor is saying, but at least she is telling my wife she can't be with or talk to the OM.

I agree that WW is too addicted to OM and I anticipate NC being violated in the next week or two. The WW keeps saying she is committed to NC but I'm just not believing it.

I spoke with OM's ex last night and she told me OM had been begging ex to work things out over the weekend and earlier this week. Ex wants nothing to do with his controlling abusive behaviour and has finally convined OM of this. I told this to WW and can tell from her reaction that she is very concerned with what OM is doing. That can only mean she is still considering going back to him at some point. WW asks me why I believe ex and all I can tell here is that I have witnessed OM lying first hand and not the ex therefore I give her the benefit of the doubt. I tell WW that OM has built a life the past 2 years on lies and deception so I don't believe much of anything he says. Of course OM is telling WW that there have only been conversations with ex, that he hasn't been begging or asking to go back. The whole thing is a huge cluster of lies.

I sometimes wonder how much longer I can be patient. But I made a decision to committ to trying the last time WW said she would and I feel as though I need to see that through. Plus with today being the last day of OM at work I feel like I at least need to see if NC can be followed through with. If it is not I will have no choice but to kick WW out.

I sometimes feel like I rescued WW too soon from the problems of the A. The night the police got involved in WW and OMs relationship my protector kicked in and told WW to come live with me and the kids. I may have rescued her too soon because now she seems to forget just how bad things got with OM and only remembers the fantasy of it all and the good times. I fear I should have really let her hit the bottom, now I may need to let her go through it all over again before she really realizes that there really is very little hope with OM.

Going to be a long week ahead. Do I spy on WW to see if NC is being broken? If NC is maintained how long before I can expect the fog to start to lift? I've been reading "Surviving an Affair" and it mentions maybe three weeks before it starts lifting. Is this typical? For some who may have been through this what is your experience with the time it takes from NC for the fog to start to disapate?

Is a NC letter absolutely necessary?

WW has continually said she intends to stick to NC after today, and has told OM and he has agreed to it. Of course I don't really believe either of them yet.

I have begun a letter for Plan B, anticipating NC being broken. My feelings are maybe I should insist WW write the NC letter and if she refuses then give her the Plan B letter. But does that violate the Plan A principle of no demands? I'm really not even sure I would consider what is happening right now Plan A. But I also think insisting on a NC letter would be a demand that would make a substancial withdrawal from LB.

Not sure if I should just be patient for now and see if NC is broken, or insist on a NC letter.

Any suggestions?

Hi Former
All I can say is I wish I had insisted on a NC letter. We would be in a different place today. His idea of breaking off contact was to stop the A.

Didn't stop him from taking her calls or sneaking back off to have lunch with her when he felt curious.

Also, she hung around outside his office window in a public street so that he could see her while he worked.

A NC contact letter would have made it much more black and white. And would have saved me a ton of heartache.

If she's serious about this, and serious about this working, and serious about maintaining NC... then why would writing the letter be a big deal??

Seriously-- if she's that resistant to writing the letter...I'd be asking myself why that is....

Plus, IMHO-- (and I am a FWW)-- waywards have a way of trying to "lessen" the blow when telling the OM... and inadvertently that leaves the window open for contact again.

I vote letter. I don't think it is a demand. It is a boundary.

I haven't read your whole story... but read thru some of the ones here... or even just the sig lines... of all of the people that went through "false recoveries". Don't set yourself up for one of those. Without the letter, your chances for a false recovery is MUCH MUCH higher.

The letter shouldn't be a big deal if she was serious about telling OM that she wants no contact anyways. She can even state in it she just watned to "re-iterate" what she told him verbally-- that she wants no contact for life, she is working on her marriage, etc.

My view point-- if she claims she already said it to him... what's the harm in putting it in writing too?? And if you are resistant to that... it makes me wonder what you REALLY said to him... and if you planned on keeping NC anyways....

just my 2 cents--

RIM

Agree very much with this.

OH YES! I would step up your spying efforts in any way you can. We know lots of methods, so discuss this with us if you know of some gaps that need to filled.


It may START in 3 weeks, but it usually takes longer than that. One of the keys will be for you to DILIGENTLY try to fill that gap by meeting her needs and spending as much as possible with her. You won't have a lot of success at first, so don't get frustrated.


If she is sincere, she should be willing to write the nc letter. You don't demand, you simply ask her to do it for you. It would be a demonstration of her sincerity and a GOODWILL GESTURE to you. <-----use those words. Don't demand, that won't work.

Show her the sample from Surviving an Affair that I posted on page 2 of your thread.
If she won't, I suspect she is not sincere.

The letter is a PROTECTION for you, the betrayed spouse and a gesture of her good will and sincerity.

Thanks for the great feedback on the NC letter.

As for the spying. I can monitor her work email, though only after I get home at night. So if she contacts by email and then deletes, and more importantly permanently deletes I won't see it. Thankfully she hasn't really caught on that I can look in her deleted folder, and then even if she deletes from there I can retrieve deleted emails until she actually chooses permanently delete. If she does go that far, not much I can do. I can't set up spying software at her workplace. I can also monitor her cell phone.

The biggest hole is them contacting each other while she is at work and using the office phone. Also no way to control what she does at lunch. Other than forcing her to meet me everyday, which I would be okay with except I'm not always available. Other times she has meetings and I would need to be able to verify her meetings, which could be a problem.

As for her seriousness. The only thing she has committed to being serious about is NC. Since the counselor told her to work on herself, she is not going to seriously committ to saving the marriage right now. It's a mistake I know but for the moment anyway I can't change that.

One more thing. I've made it perfectly clear what no contact means, zero contact, no phone, no email, no lunch, nothing. I have also made it clear that even one conversation is considered continuing the affair.

IMHO, the NC letter is necessary. However, in my case the first NC letter was faked by prearrangement with them. You have to follow up the NC letter with access -- full access-- to email and cell phones.

Third day of NC today.

I didn't push for the NC letter over the weekend. Things are so tense and uncomfortable right now I just don't feel like causing any more trouble at this time. I would rather work towards us being friendly towards each other.

I tend to think being patient at this stage and not pushing any buttons or causing any turmoil is the best course of action.

WW is really angry right now. She is not happy with me for what she views as my, not letting her go on with her fantasy life without consequences.

I am on the last two chapters of "Surviving an Affair", but not sure what good it will do if I am the only one working towards reconciliation. I think WW has too many people telling her "you need to figure yourself out right now, you need to work on your own personal issues." I think that's crap, but I can't stop what other people are saying. I agree WW has some issues, but this doesn't have to be a mutually exclusive deal. She can work on her issues while trying to rebuild a friendship with me.

Going to be a long couple months in the fog. And that's a best case scenario!

WW sent this email today.


"Are you happy with how things are going. Trying to be honest here....I still wonder if having my own place is a better option. I could get somewhere close so we are good co-parents. I know I am not a good parent right now. I feel lost and I wonder if my own place would be better."

My reply told her if she moved out I wanted no contact with her and she would need to get settled and be more stable before the kids could come spend the night. Also told her the kids could have zero contact with OM until I said it was okay, not sure I can even do that legally.

I also explained that if she stayed I was willing to be patient and committed to working things out. The choice is hers.

She replied with:

"I appreciate your response. I guess I am just concerned that I am not getting any better. I am very upset that I am still smoking. I am very upset that I am still feel uneasy in the house and I have been a really bad mom in the last few months. I also don’t like what I am doing to you. Having no contact is fine but they are my kids too and they can stay with mommy if that’s the route I go."

I think we're about done, and I'm not even sure I care much right now. Oh I'll cry at some point, but right now just doesn't seem worth it.

FPF, just stick to your guns. You did absolutely the right thing in telling her you would not be her "friend" if she moved out. The only reason she wants to move out is so she can carry on her affair unimpeded. Make sure she understands she can't take the kids from their home.

Don't despair, this is just a dry run at withdrawal. I expect she will cave real soon here and contact the OM. I suspect it will take plan B so I would get prepared.

I will stick to my guns and and well prepared for plan B.

Last night we talked and she said she was strongly considering moving out. She won't come right out and say she is going to. I don't think she wants to make that decision. Her family is very worried about her and believes she is a mess and just not in a healthy place. They think maybe she needs to live on her own and experience life like that to get her act together. Of course I don't believe she'll be alone. Like you I believe this is just her needing to get away from me so she can continue in her affair.

She says she needs to find a stable environment to figure things out which is total crap. The only reason my house isn't stable is because of her continued wavering back and forth on the affair. I make the house as comfortable place as possible for her. I always discuss things with her calmly and I go out of my way to see if she needs anything or if there is anything I can do for her. I take care of the kids the majority of the time, I do most of the cleaning and laundry. She just hangs around and sulks.

She's so lost right now she can't see that the cause of all her pain and confusion is her inability to get away from/over the OM. The fog is truly unbelievable.

She wasn't feeling well last night and stayed home from work today with our daughter who is also not feeling well. Tonight I will ask if she has made a firm decision. I might even be patient and ask again tomorrow. But by this weekend if she can't committ to something I will make the choice for her and move to plan B.

I have been holding off on it hoping some of her problems have just been going through WD after NC started this past Friday. But now I think it's going beyond that.

Email exchange with WW earlier today.
-----------------
BS:In the 60's right now, but going to hit 16 degrees tonight. Supposed to drop dramatically all afternoon.

WW:Great...I am over it.

BS:Over what, the cold?
Let's move to Carolina and start all over again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

WW:yes over the cold. I feel better about you just thinking about space. I know it sounds wierd but maybe a little time apart is what we need.
-------------------------

I hate the babble. I truly do. She is throwing in that bit about space to keep the door open. I told her last night if she moved out I didn't want contact and wouldn't be waiting around for her. She just can't make a decision.

Do I make the decision for her and move to plan B? Or do I wait to see if this is part of the fog and she stays around long enough to get out of it?