I hope I can get some kind of advice here apart from "break up" because that is all I can see as a possibility right now.

My bf and I have been going out for over 3 years. Our relationship is complicated by the fact that we live in different countries, but we've lived together for about 10 months total in that time, and are in phone, email and MSN contact several times daily. We were doing fine, planning to marry and get visas, we'd decided which country to live in, when we came up on this brick wall.

He wants kids, and I don't.

We both feel strongly about our positions. It is not that I dislike or "hate" children - I just don't want any of my own and never have. I am not maternal, and in fact many of the women in my family have not been "maternal" types, and several, over a few generations, have chosen to be childfree, and have been happy. I have been married before, and my ex also did not want children, so that was not a point of conflict for us (just everything else!).

My current bf is 28 and I am almost 33. If we are going to have kids - and if I did, I would only want one - I'm going to have to have a stunning turnaround in the next few years before my chances really drop without medical intervention.

I love this man, although we have other issues regarding his depression and lack of any kind of personal drive. I am an ambitious, highly educated and adventurous person. When we first got together I was slightly less adamant about not having kids - first flush of love, I think - and he was unsure whether he wanted them. Now he does. And I really, really don't.

This has been a horribly miserable and debilitating issue in our relationship. We lasted 3 years on separate continents, and it seems this kid issue will be the end of us.

Is there anything in the POJA that addresses this issue? I know I should walk away - believe me. I am also being blasted by this advice from friends and family. But it's not so easy when you are in love with someone, and on this issue I am hanging in there hoping for the alleged "baby fever" that's supposed to hit women in their late 30s. But it is clearly unfair to him and me to stay together hoping and hoping, when he could be finding a new and fertile young woman!

Is there any hope? Am I just destined to have a broken heart, and break one in return? If it were any other issue I feel we could work through it, but there seems no option here.

I am curious why you stayed together if you knew you had different stances on this? This is the kind of thing that needs to be discussed and taken into consideration while dating because it is a DEAL BREAKER. Dating is a job interview for marriage, and if the candidate does not have the right skills, then he is not hired.

And you are right, the kid issue will be a deal breaker, because it means that one of you will have to sacrifice. Which will only lead to resentment, which will lead to lovebusters, which will lead to.... You get the picture.


You won't love him for long with huge problems like this. This is the kind of stuff that causes people to fall out of love. The point of dating is a DISCOVERY PROCESS, not a process where you attempt to CHANGE the other before you get married. Unless you want to accept his depression, accept his lack of personal drive, and accept that he wants kids - and we willing to have kids, then you should move on. You have to accept that you do not have the power to change him, NOR SHOULD YOU TRY. I see nothing but trouble and heartbreak in the future and I can't imagine why anyone would sign on for that.

There really is no option. Broken hearts are part of the deal sometimes...sad but true. The longer you two delay this decision, the longer you both will be dealing with this pain. Expect it will hurt. Expect there will be a draw to return to one another. But love one another enough to realize that being together is not what will lead to a fulfilling life.

I wonder if perhaps your current adamancy about not having kids stems from your subconscious desire to end the relationship becuase of his lack of drive and his depression...but it's easier to make it about something else (kid issue) than the truth?

My husband and his ex were opposites on their desires for children, and it eventuallly led to divorce. He did NOT want children, she did. She married him anyway, figuring that in time he would change his mind, or she would change his mind for him...no dice...didn't happen. What it did do, though, was it led to a nasty divorce with bitter feelings all around because she "agreed" in the beginning not to have children only to change her mind the minute a ring was on her finger. He never changed his stance on the issue.

I agree with Melody Lane.

Many woman just haven't got the maternal instinct at all. Some in varying degrees. Some are born mothers.

If you're in the first category, it's a deal breaker! .. No question!

If you're in the second category, like me, I would have been happy either way, I love my kids but if I hadn't had them, I would be just as happy. Mothering in this category is a lot harder because things don't always come naturally and your selfish streak has to be constantly kept in check to do a great job.





Both these quotes tell me you're in this category, especially the second. You like your nice life and don't want it to change, nothing wrong with that. Having children will definately change it, every aspect. It's a task that requires your needs to be put aside most of the time for the needs of someone else.


Next deal breaker



This will become a major disappointment and frustration to you. If he has no drive and ambition and you thrive on it, it will become a battle ground for you both. It's just like maternal instinct but slightly different. You either have it or you don't, no middle ground.

It's a state of mind and while he may be able to accept your drive and allow you to live it and even see benefits in finances/lifestyle ... eventually you will see his lack of drive as laziness and stagnant thinking, happy with whatever and that's something you will find hard to accept.

just my thoughts

The POJA is a negotiation process which applies to all decisions you two need to make jointly (which is almost everything if you're married). So you can POJA this issue....but there isn't a POJA already designed for this particular issue...see?

So, let me tell you what a POJA would sound like and look around this issue:

you: I don't want children.
him: I want children.
you: Okay, lets talk about this calmly and protect each other from any angry outbursts or disrespectful judgements, and let's try to brainstorm a win/win scenario.

him: Okay. Is there anything I could do that would make you enthusiastic about having babies? What if I was willing to be Mr. Mom and do the things any SAHP would do? If you knew that having a baby wouldn't impact your career would you be more interested?

you: Actually no....even if you were willing to do that, I don't want to carry a baby and really don't think I would be a good mother. Is there anything that might make YOU enthusiastic about NOT having children? What if I helped you launch your career or helped you build a business? What if.....

(you get the idea)

Now....at the end brainstorming (the part of the negotiation where you are VERY creative....and looking for out of the box type solutions) if neither of you can get enthusiastic agreement from the other....you have a couple of choices:

*You can wait....and try again after you've had more time to think about it.

*Or you can recognize that you are at an impasse and this is a deal breaker. If that happens....you'll want to leave the relationship, otherwise you're both signing up for a life of resentment/sacrifice....and unhappiness.

What you do NOT want to do....is to cave in to his desires (or he to yours) and agree to something you're NOT both enthusiastic about, just so you can keep each other. Please....do not!! It won't last. You'll end up hating each other. If you do that....and either of you makes that sacrifice....it will eat away at your relationship and create enormous problems.

And here's one more thing to consider. The baby issue is not the only enormous issue you guys have. Do you really think that with your drive that you won't eventually just start thinking of this guy as a "loser"? I'm not saying he IS a loser....but his lack of drive will withdraw from the love bank and eventually....you'll lose your attraction to him. Is he treating is depression? And have you really thought about how depressing it will be for you to live with someone for years in that state? Are you ready to sign up for taking care of this guy?

You need to put off the wedding and get all these issues settled before making any more plans.

I think that with the three elephants in the room ("He wants kids, and I don't; his depression and lack of any kind of personal drive"), you are better off looking for another match.

Even the most rosy and ideal "dating" phases often lead to marriages in trouble (as evidenced by most of us on this board) - but when you KNOW you have major, likely irreconcilable issues, before you even say "I do", I would recommend saying "I don't" - and saving everyone involved much heartache further down the line.

I know it hurts to break up, but dating is all about determining compatibility - and if it's not there, there is no sense hoping for it to magically appear.

AGG

Helen, be assured that the way you feel TODAY will not last long with all these problems. If you are marrying him for "love" just know that all these problems pretty much ensure you won't feel that way for long.

This to me is even more problematic than the question of having children. Do you really think this man is good enough for you? Do you really and truly respect him?

You are in a long distance relationship. Different continents, for heavens sake. I think the issue is that you are both afraid of real intimacy, and long distance is a way for you to think you are in a relationship while continuing to NOT really have to be in one.

Which continent would you live on, if you got married?

Internet is all well and good, but it's not the same thing as being in the same room and the same house when you wake up and go to sleep.

You have all given me a lot to think about, and actually a lot of clarity.

In our discussions, before I decided that I really did not want children - I guess it was our negotiation period - he did say that he would be a SAHD and be the primary caregiver. That is really the only thing that *could* happen, because I find childcare dull and unrewarding, even for short periods of time (babysitting etc).

You are all right about the other problems we have too. I also tend towards depression but I am generally very proactive in dealing with it and so I've learned to "risk-manage" over the 15 years or so since it first presented. He tends to give into it and although I've been pushing him to see a counsellor, has not as yet.

I guess I thought that through many recent centuries, men used to be happy to have a little stay at home wife who had no ambitions outside the home, except perhaps in nursing or teaching on the side...so perhaps I could be happy with him being less driven, and see his personality as a complementary one to mine. I don't have any issue if he wants to take on non-paid work, such as volunteering, *if it makes him happy*. I am happy to support him as long as I feel he's making a valuable contribution either to our home or to society. He has occasionally shown sparks of ambition in his career - ironically, he's a mental health worker - but they seem to die down as soon as his usual state of "I'm so useless" comes back. It's incredibly frustrating, as I'm sure you can imagine!

I'm rambling here - sorry. But thanks for the chance to write this stuff down. It does help just to talk about it. I have been seeing a counsellor myself to manage a recent slide into depression and I've also been discussing this issue with her. But I needed many more points of view to help me really think about this.

We are going to have another talk today and I am going to raise some of the points made here. Thanks everyone...I'll update later.

(Also - sorry I posted this in Infidelity when it's not about infidelity, I saw the "general questions" title and didn't see the section it was in!)

Hey HG -

I'm only going to address the disconnect between you and your BF on kids, and leave the other stuff alone for now.

We just had our second child in October, and I'd like to throw out some food for thought. Babies are not for the faint of heart!

Even if he were to be a SAHD and the primary caregiver - children have an impact beyond the primary caregiver:

- babies wake up multiple times during the night for months after they are born. Even if you don't get up with the baby, he will have to, and that will disturb your sleep schedule.

- it costs money to have and maintain a baby. Diapers, formula, clothes, furniture, and assorted paraphenalia...it ain't cheap. He wants to be a SAHD? Are you prepared to have two dependents?

- you'll be the one having the baby. Side effects include nausea, heartburn, exhaustion, weight gain, stretch marks, months to get your body back, partial urinary incontienence, possible C-section scarring, and so on.

- if you want your BF/H to go anywhere with you - say, a movie or dinner - you'll need a sitter. This will involve additional time and cost.

- you'll have to babyproof the house to some extent. Prized knickknacks will have to be packed away for N years, or at least put somewhere inaccessible to curious hands and mouths.

- babies have an inborn sense of when you're trying to have a quiet dinner together, watch a television show together, or get intimate. I'm not sure how they do it, but that's the time they decide to get hungry, fill their diaper, throw up, or otherwise start fussing loudly.

- babies'/toddlers' toys make noise. And for some reason they rarely have a volume control switch. Toddlers especially like to press the same button and hear the same sound 84,221 times in a row. Enjoy.

- once your child has discovered the Pandora's Box we call television, there's no closing the lid.

I made this amusing on purpose to take the edge off, but I'm deadly serious. Having kids is a big deal. You're not going to squeeze out a baby, hand it off to BF/H and be done. If you are 99% sure you don't want kids, and he is 99% he does want kids, they you need to break up and find more compatible people to be with.

Perhaps, but I think it's a tall order. Your first post did not show much respect for him being "less driven", and without respect, love drains quickly.

As a personal aside, my ex was/is the ambitionus workaholic/climber, while I was more than content to have a very well paying career but without constantly longing for more. I was much happier focusing on our kids than on my career. I think that my ex also did not respect my priorities, which perhaps explains why she ended up sleeping with a coworker who supposedly had an "amazing" career (I don't know why I would call anyone who is cheating on his own family and kids "amazing", but I digress).

Anyway, looking back, I am much happier with my chosen path of having a great career but maintaining my kids as my primary focus, while my ex still prioritizes work above all else. I think it was a fundamental incompatibility between us. Nowdays she tells me how much she respects me and my parenting, but she sure as heck didn't when we were married.

So perhaps I am jaded, but when I see your words about his "lack of any kind of personal drive", I think that rightly or wrongly, you will not have much respect for him in the longterm.

AGG

Helen_G

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I love this man, although we have other issues regarding his depression and lack of any kind of personal drive. I am an ambitious, highly educated and adventurous person.


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I want to tell you from personal experience that you need to consider seriously that these issues are ones that will utlimately lead to unhappiness down the road.

I too am highly ambitous, highly educated, driven and adventurous woman. My WH is just as you described your BF. When we first got together and during the early years of our marriage, I let my love for him gloss over these traits. But as time went on, I lost respect for him. I blamed him for what I now saw as not pulling his weight emotionally and financially in the M. In reality, I have no one to blame except myself b/c I knew his tendency for depression before we even started dating. His lack of drive and ambition did not show up until years after we began dating seriously, but I had invested so many years in the R I told myself I could look beyond it and married him anyway.

We are heading for a D now (he also ended up having an A too, but that is a whole other thread <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). And although I wish the trigger for the end of our M could have been different (ie a mutual decision to part ways), the ending of the M is really for the best. If I had been smarter years ago, I would have been more honest with myself and what I wanted in a life partner and cut my losses with him before we married. Perhaps that would have allowed us both to find partners that were better suited to each of us years ago.

Trust me when I tell you that love does not conquer all.

Just my two cents... I wish you the best.

Smartie