Here are my background threads:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3363798

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3386865

In my last thread, it was suggested that I post here because an Emotional Affair can be just as painful as a Physical Affair. I hope you will allow me to post here even if that may not be true in your personal opinion. I debated posting here because my husband keeps claiming that he just wants to be friends, nothing more with ex, but what does that entail?

Sharing intimate details about me. Comparing me. Listening to her advice to dump me. (See the threads posted.)

I believe I have been in the Carrot of Plan A for a few weeks now. However, I didn't dare move to the Stick. I didn't know how to classify this emotional affair. He had NC for six months, something legal came up, required contact with her.

We fought almost to the point of divorce. We finally decided we would use a neutral third party. But my husband decided -- on his own -- that he wasn't going to do that. Our back up plan was that I would call her. He dishonored that, claiming at first to having forgotten, then saying, "I didn't want to call you first."

He called her and was on the phone for thirteen minutes (bill came in.) We argued nearly to the point of divorce. This time it was ME that was going to the court. Only it was Christmas Eve, and they were closed. I asked him to tell me EVERY word that was said. He told me ONE minute of converation and cut me off. I confronted him when the bill came in. He repeated nearly word for word the ONE minute conversation. I left the room. Realizing there was no way I could believe that, he came out and added a little something. Again, yelling at me, again closing the conversation by cutting me off. Typical "I'm lying to you," stuff.

He has certain physical things he does when he conceals things from me, and he was doing them ALL at once. I did not confirm or deny that I believed his story (I think the part he did tell me was true; he just left out a big chunk of what would upset me.)

I waited for guilt to drive him to tell me the rest, but that never happened.

His mom came into town for a long visit yesterday. I thought it might be time to start into the "Stick" of Plan B. He was hiding all of his misbehaviors; past, present and future; from his family and from mine. I was sick of it.

We went shopping last night. I picked up the book, "Never be Lied to Again." I read it quite noticably in front of him. When I got to the part confirming that his behaviors were one of a liar, I told him I knew he was lying. He said, "Whatever." I read a little more. At the cash register, I said it again. He said, "About what?" "About the phone conversation." You should have seen the look on his face. I've never seen that much guilt in one place in my life. (I wonder if he posting were here, what he would call it?)

I teased him about the book in front of his Mom. Said in front of her, if he had told me the whole phone conversation, I wouldn't need a book like this. He wasn't going there with me, but he was super, super, weirdly nice to me.

It kept me awake. I decided I was sick in living in a land where I did not know if, when or where my husband was going to start up this precious, valuable "friendship" again.

So in the morning, we were all having coffee. I brought up the phone conversation again. He started yelling. I brought up the stuff that he did to me six months ago (telling very private stuff about me AND my child to his ex-wife -- and making decisions about US based on HER advice; private, private stuff, pretending to her that I was a friends with benefits.) I told him then and there for the first time that when he did that, it felt like

RAPE. Though I haven't been raped, I came close once, and this is exactly what it felt like.

I felt utterly EXPOSED to his ex-wife, like I was NAKED in front of her.

This really shocked his mother. But I wasn't watching her the whole time. I just told her all of the things he had put me through.

One thing that surprised them both -- and how could it have surprised my husband? He was there -- was that his ex-wife treated me like an affair from Day One.

They thought I meant actually having an affair. I said, "No, I thought it was from her side, like she had something wrong in her head." They seemed to really believe that, seemed relieved that I didn't think my husband was having a PA with her.

My husband started yelling at me, "If we were REALLY going to get divorced it would be over our XYZ LEGAL SITUATION!" Which was ironic because he only became pillow-slamming hysterical when it came to the issue that involved his EX-WIFE. Her stepping stone. Our lives at HER mercy. And he would divorce me, never forgive me, for his mistake (he didn't take care the legal matter like he needed to)?

I apologized ONLY for biting off more than I could chew and slowing down the legal process. I countered the false accusations he threw at me. His mom helped me because he was exaggerating left and right. She knew enough to know he was.

She assured me that my husband had told her, while he was still married to ex, that he could never be more than a friend to her. That as much as he wanted to, he could not love her.

(Yet that confuses me. Because he has been willing two times now to end our marriage for her 'friendship.')

He did seem a little regretful, but did NOT say sorry. Did NOT tell me the rest of the phone conversation (he let slip something he did not tell me to his mom, so I know I'm right, that there is more. He says no.) Did NOT say it was a bad idea to mix exes with current wives.

What he DID say was he feels HE HAS THE RIGHT TO HER FRIENDSHIP. Which is why I am not happy where things are right now.

I've never been the kind of women to play second fiddle to anyone. And I did not sign a marriage certificate to be with a bigamist. We may be happy in nearly every other area of our marriage right now, but I can't see myself being the BIG, BAD PERSON that won't let poor little DH have his ex-wife as a CLOSE, PERSONAL FRIEND.

That's just too much for me.

I'd like to put together a coherent Plan A. I'm afraid if he doesn't get a little sense into his head, I can't see myself with him right now. But maybe some here could help me?

Give it six weeks, then move to Plan B. If I don't move out, I may instead request a post-nuptial agreement, where if he must be her friend, he will pay for our divorce and willingly, no fight, split our possessions evenly. I don't know yet.

I'm DISGUSTED with him. And yet he is still being super-nice.

This is a letter I want to send. But I guess it's best saved for a Plan B:

"You have no idea how much you have hurt me and consistently weakened my love for you by putting
the value of your ex-wife's friendship so high above
our marriage that I have to *ask* you to end it.

You have never heard me when I told you how much you've hurt me.

I've cried a lot. I really believe that this will please your ex-wife. I think you should call her.
Given your history, I am sure she will have some good advice for you."

Wow, he really thinks he has a right to her friendship.

He is killing you with that, and just doesn't get it. I would stick to that issue and go nowhere else. If he can't understand how hurtful that alone is, what else matters?

What a jerk. Trust me, I now how you feel. An ex couldn't let go of an ex-boyfriend, even claiming he needed to stay in her and her son's life because, "Everyone needs Uncles." Yeah, she really believed that. This guy was no relative. It wasn't until later that I found they were still sleeping together. I should have known.

There is a reason they won't let the ex go, and no matter what he tells his mommy, it is a physical attraction. I feel for you and your situation. Good luck to you.

He is asking me why I won't forget it like he has -- since he won't keep contacting her (per him) -- and it's because of exactly what you said, he had no idea how hurtful that is. When I tell him, he diminishes me, thinks I shouldn't be bothered. Thinks I'm the strange one.

Yet he is embarrassed and angry that I said this in front of his mom. I confronted him again last night, this time forcing the conversation to continue each time he tried to stop it. I did raise my voice, use profanity and an AO. I was so fed up (maybe reaching the end of Plan A? even though I want to continue.)

I demanded (I know, not so good) an apology. I said, "You never apologized for what you did to me. You never acknowledged how much you hurt me. TELL me it's wrong to bring an ex-wife into a current marriage!"

He did -- to shut me up.

"TELL me you are sorry!" He did to shut me up.

"Tell me that you understand that doing this to me was like rape*!" He did to shut me up.

"I NEVER did this to you with my ex! I never put you in this position!"

At this point, he said I was embarrassing him, his mom could hear, and he was closing the door.

"I said you think I embarrass YOU! What do you think you did to ME all this time?! I couldn't tell anyone what you were doing!"

He said, "OK, payback is fairplay. Now be quiet."

{paraphrase}

*Actually, I used a specific analogy, did not sound like this, but cannot be printed.


Holy canary! His mother and I were just talking about how very unattractive this woman is!

Wow, that would be like taking Kathy Bates over Angelina Jolie!

I think I did this wrong. I'm having such a hard time finding the Plan A/Plan B info I need. Mostly no LBs except the ones specifically mentioned.

I have ordered Love Busters and His Needs, Her Needs. It will take about a week for them to arrive.

I hope it's not physical attraction. He did like her flabby behind. That's the only thing I could say. He told his mother for a long time that she so turned him off that she "gagged" him. Bad breath, bad teeth.... I didn't know that before.

He's not happy about Mom and I talking... but we are trying to respect some limits and vowing to keep our conversations confidential, i.e., not let them become family gossip. This is out of respect for him. (I consider this discussion board an anonymous party.)

Too bad he isn't happy you and mom are talking, that's what exposure is. It's working if he is uncomfortable.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you, but try to limit those outbursts. See if you can find a "quiet place" (where no one else can hear you) for you to vent. I find a closed up car in the garage is good.

Why you won't forget like he has... Aren't they amazing? They sure try to minimize our points of view. It's hard to forget when he refuses to deal with the drama he caused.

If he can't see what he has done, it will invariably come up again at a later time. Some may counsel you to take what you can get and move on, but too many others here have found that advice to come back and bite them. Think of it as an infection - if you don't clean it out completely, it WILL come back again.

Very uncomforable. He texted from work not to talk about our marriage problems. His mom wanted me too actually. She said she'd put in the vault. I did set boundaries for myself, but she gave me some dish that helps me understand where DH is coming from.

For one thing, she's assured me that he's never had a woman like me in his life before. To have a MIL say that -- you cannot believe how that feels. And she says she loves me and wants me in the family.


Had another one last night, even though I was trying very hard not too.



Too cold <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />! But we did close the door last night -- first.

We have multiple problems going on. But this one thing was the biggest for me. I finally figured out between what his mom said and what he said that my suspicion that he was trying to keep ex around like a boobie prize/momma was true. He more or less confirmed it.

Since he controlled her with his attractiveness vs. her unattractiveness (she wanted to be with a hunk, I guess that's the story,) he wanted that to happen in this relationship. Only with me being attractive too, he couldn't get his footing on the control issue.

And he shouldn't. It's unhealthy and harmful for me to be controlled by him. Plus, the great irony of this kind of man, and remember it girls. HE DOESN'T RESPECT A WOMAN WHO CAN BE CONTROLLED BY HIM.

That's right. As much as he hates you and punishes you for setting boundaries, you will be nothing but a boring old hag if you do everything to please him. Some of his ENs will probably be met, but it won't matter, you're boring. You do anything he wants. He gets his excitement elsewhere.

So the fact that I feel like I live on a balancing beam -- it's true. I love him enough to make the effort,

But when we were fighting last night, and he threatened divorce AGAIN. (I'm going to have to get a counter.) And added something new, threatening to have an affair if I don't forget about the ex....

I finally told him that I had thought many times of leaving him. I told him that I was sick of being threatened by him. He had punched a lot of holes in my trust for him at the beginning of our relationship. It took six months of NC to build it back up. Then he ruined my trust again with the two incidents -- phone call to ex and {bad activity} with a friend. (He never gave me a chance to really fully say what I needed to say before.)

He kept saying that I've been destroying his love for me by bringing this up over and over. I told him he destroyed a lot of my love for him over his ex-wife -- was she worth it? Did that make him happy?

(He still has the misconception that I was thinking PA. No, I was more thinking EA. No matter how many times I indicate that trust includes a lot more than just PA (it also includes day-to-day life decisions!), he doesn't get it. I do believe a lot of men only think of the word "trust" in relation to women as a purely physical, sexual word.)

[/quote]

SYF, you will be happy to know that I had a chance to use your analogy. When he asked me, "Why won't you just forget about this like me?" last night, he finally gave me the chance to answer, and I used your analogy.

I told him that even his habits make him look like a liar. That shouting and cutting people off and shutting down an argument makes him LOOK like a liar. Letting me discuss something with him ... for as long as it takes (minutes, hours) ... until I have reached a point of belief means that a fight might get resolved the very same night!

Instead of dragging on, and on, and on. 5 minutes here, 10 minutes there, with me still boiling on the inside. I said I could not handle anger like he does, going silent, shutting down and supressing it -- forever (though that's night quite true, he does let the past come up at the most inconvenient moments.)

I had to get it out. But once it was out, it was out.

(This all after he asked me how fights went in prior relationships! He had no idea other than his experience with his ex-wife, where I can only guess she allowed him to dominate her? Which led to her passive-aggressive behavior? His other relationships where just too short. If the woman didn't do what he wanted, she was out.

In my example, I said that ending a fight thoroughly often led to peace and sometimes even SF. That really surprised him!)

He really listened and really tried. He explained everything about the contact again, slower, with love, honesty and respect. He finally did it. He reached my heart. I felt he was really telling the truth. Finally. I felt he was really sincerely sorry. Finally. I needed that for closure.

Now I have no need to bring it up with him again. That's how I am.

Even though I did not enjoy the AO AT ALL when we were saying horrible things to each other, I did learn so much more about his ENs.

I learned he is super, super-sensitive in the change in his sexual appetite since a change in his medication. Pressuring him or critizing him anyway right now would be a complete deal breaker in his book. I have to be very careful in this.

I said, and he knows, that as long as my SF needs are met every third day, I am happy. Literally. I do not get so cranky. He is willing to do that. It's a delicate balance right now. The event itself is always good. But it's just a very touchy area for him right now. We don't know what the future holds medically. Right now, he must be on these prescriptions.

His other EN, I am well aware of it. Domestic Support, esp. housecleaning. Though my friends would be intimidated by the way I keep house, his mother was a perfectionist. So he wants white glove clean. He doesn't complain much if he doesn't get it though.

He told me his one hot spot. Dishes piled up. I did warn him (before marriage) when I got sick, he would have to help with dishes. He still balks at this; attacks me when I'm sick, won't simply roll up his sleeves in do them himself. We are stonewalled on this, and I am waiting for the books to arrive to get a better negotiation going.

He also brought up his need for housecleaning. I said I'm happy to do it, not resentful. He asked me for half an hour a day. Unless I'm sick, I've been giving it an hour a day. For two people, that's enough.

Now he wants 2 HOURS per day. Yes, that will be white glove level... BUT here I see another problem coming. When I do that, and I have in the past, I get into projects that require HIS HELP. And though I ask him day after day after day to help with one single thing, well, you know. Maybe 50% of the time after asking seven days in a row, it gets done. Maybe not.

One problem we have that when a certain chore needs doing in his book but not in mine, he won't tell me! I told him I need him to be specific. He said, "NO. I don't want to tell you what to do." I said I am not a mind-reader, and I NEED him to be specific. If he has a chore he wants done, just tell me, I'd be happy to do it. He said, "NO. I want you to want a clean house like me." I said, "I clean it till it's as clean as I want it. You have to tell me if there is a specific chore you need to have done." He said, "NO." I laughed and said, "YES. I need you to be specific."

I'm sticking to my guns. I told him if he criticized the way I did housework, it's just like me and criticizing sex. Criticizing me means I'll be so angry, I won't lift a dang finger. Just like if I criticize his appetite, he won't do a dang thing to please me. I think he got it, but he stood firm that he didn't want to be specific.

But GET THIS. This morning, his mom was cleaning, telling me that my DH POINTED OUT A FEW THINGS HE'D LIKE DONE! Lol! The irony of that! Now I KNOW he is capable of being specific. He just wants my mindset to be exactly like his. I'm sticking to repitition. I'll keep letting him know I need specifics.

The funny part it is, he had no idea he was different from other men in how they fight with women. How do you tell a person like this that many men are reasonable and will here you out? How do explain to a man like this that another man in his shoes would have apologized AND SENT FLOWERS long ago? Umm, you can't really. So I made some really careful comparisons. Softer-spoken, willing to listen, etc. That is what he shot for last night.

Anyway, I'm happier to day. I think once the books arrive, I will learn to be more comfortable telling him when I feel the marriage is shaky. One thing that I realized last night is that if the marriage becomes too harmful to my mental or physical health (don't worry, he's not a hitter), I will leave it, no matter how much I love him. I value life too much to stay.

But by the same token, I am very strong underneath a fragile exterior. I believe he loves me with all his heart when we are in a State of Intimacy. I feel like his one and only most times. Even his threat of an affair last night did not have any heart in it. I think if he is willing to go through the books here, we have enough love and compatibility to last the long-run.

The miracle of this all is that it ended with sweet SF. My husband still has the ability to surprise me.

Sounds like some major progress. We men do have some pet peeves - my ex would pile all her still clean clothes up on the hamper instead of hanging them up. I couldn't even open it to put my dirty drawers in there!

You seem to be on a good track with your issues. I wouldn't expext to clear them all up real fast, but there is good progress. Have you thought of hiring some help around the house with the cleaning?

That was very cool where you could feel him being truthful. I was with an almost total liar for five years, and the few times she was truthful were so refreshing.

Keep up the good work.

This is the first day in nearly a month that he's started out with an LB balance. Ever since the contact, it has been reset to zero every morning when my doubts set in. It is a great feeling to wake up with a healthy balance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

He was smiling so much after work last night. It was a great thing to see.

I feel for you SYF. My #1 EN is O&H. I think I can get him to look at the books when I arrive. For the first time, he seems really interested in how "other people" do it. His only experience with an LTR was his ex-wife -- who was a compulsive liar. I was with a liar for five years, and it was one of the most horrible experiences of my life.

I'm glad things are better. Wanted to comment on a couple things, which are hot buttons for me.

Is there something that he is responsible for, that you would take over if he were incapacitated? Can you show the difference, a la "Why would you expect me to take out the trash if you’re sick, but you won’t do the dishes? Please do explain the difference. Is it because you're a man? Really? Please share that logic with me, because I don't get it."

Also, if I may ask, does he do ANYTHING in DS? Do you work outside the house? If you do, I would strongly urge you to sit down with him and let him know that you are currently willing to do the 1 hour a day, considering that you – like him – work full time, but that it will be a cold day in you know where before you spend 2 hours a day, AFTER work, to please his need for cleanliness unless he, too, is doing the cleaning. If he balks, ask him exactly why he thinks it’s YOUR job to do it and not his. Just dare him to say it’s cos you’re a girl!

And THEN say, "I will continue to do the 1 hour a day, IF. IF I start seeing you doing some of the other work that is part of ‘your’ responsibility, such as when I ask you to help. It is unfair for me to have to ask you 7 times. What do you have to ask me for 7 times before I do it?"

Otherwise, let him know that you will start refraining from the 1 hour a day, and the amount of work you do will directly correlate to how much he helps.

I know whereof I speak, vs! Do NOT let this stay lopsided. For instance, let him know that if he doesn’t help you when you ask to, say, hang up a curtain, his underclothes will not get cleaned until the curtain is hung.

I know this is antagonistic, and not great MB. But, you should start seeing results, once he realizes you’re serious and that you expect him to be FAIR in what he contributes. Then you can go back to great MB. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"NO. I want you to want a clean house like me."
Have you read The Dance of Anger? It specifically covers this subject. When one person wants another person to do the cleaning, yet is unwilling to accept HOW that person cleans, it is the requester that has to change his expectation, or else do it himself. You should get it and show him that passage.

Sorry for being so adamant, but I've been in your shoes, and I can't tell you how much anger and resentment I've built up over 30 years because of it. Don't let this be the thing that drives a wedge.

How another cleans brings to mind something - my mom lived with my ex and I for a few months, and my ex and I both worked, mom stayed home to watch the kids. Ex vaccuumed, but mom didn't like the way the vaccuum lines went, so she criticised.

That's just nuts!

I have not had much time to post with DH's mom here. We had an unfortunate incident. She's been cleaning my home without consulting me first. I DON'T like that.

I told DH about it. He said let her do as she pleases. I said, only if you don't tease me later, and only if she doesn't tell me what to do.

Cleaning day two, just a few hours ago. She starts telling me how to clean lampshade. I cleaned houses for a living at one point in time. I was getting very upset, so I went to the bedroom, where I found she had...

folded my husband's laundry and put it on our unmade bed (he and I had to rush out this morning.) That hit a LOT of pet peaves. MIL's handling their son's underwear, bleah. Putting clean clothes on used sheets. And a guest entering the master bedroom without permission.

Talk about boundary stomping! I called my mom for support, and talked to my husband. My mom said pick one thing to talk to her about, so I picked laundry because the thought of her touching my panties turns my stomach. Husband can't see my point of view very well, but says he will mention it.

Lo and behold -- I go into the bathroom, it's rearranged! I have certain things arranged certain ways for certain reasons but that's beside the point, another boundary stomped.

I did not want to confront her, but I did. I asked her not to do our laundry and that she did not need to rearrange our things. (I said it nicely.) She took it badly, my other daughters RESPECT me when I clean. I said, "I do respect you, but let's find a middle ground. I wasn't raised having guests cleaned. If I needed my house clean, I paid for it. I'm just not comfortable." She didn't like that. My husband piped in, "Ma, you're cleaning her house, and she doesn't like it."

Wow! He stood up for me.

He says, "If I ask you to do anything, do it. But if I don't, don't." And I said, "Yes, if he asks you anything, go for it." (Very limited requrests, no skin off my nose.)

I was so embarrassed I took off to wash the car. I did not back down.

Got home, overhear, "Go ahead and pack, but I think she's right."

I'm floored! He stood up for me TWICE.

I called my mom again -- to see it from a MIL's point of view, she has one SIL loves her to clean, the other hates it.

She's trying to help. I don't want my MIL to leave. In fact, I want my son to meet her on Saturday. I don't know what to do. I can see her point of view, but will she see mine?

She's sweet, and we have had very long conversations. I don't want her to leave an enemy when there is no point.

Glad that you stuck up for yourself, and that he backed you. Just remember with his mom to stick to the issues and heap much praise during the discussion.

Be honest with her. She's just a person. (although she did create the neat freak husband) Tell her exactly why it bothers you. Tell her that you really adore her and cherish the time you have with her and would hate that she left because she was offended, when you didn't intend to offend - it was just that cleaning is such a super big issue in your household that it's probably your number one hot button so when you add in a third party it makes you panic and get anxious and want to protect your boundaries and... get the idea?

Just be honest with her. Apologize for offending her, but defend your right to defend your own home, and ask that you hope she can understand that, as she probably felt the same way when she was in your shoes.

This is a good point. There is nothing I can think of that I wouldn't do myself (or hire someone to do) if he were sick. I simply would expect nothing of him more than he could handle. I don't know how to negotiate with him.
As far as male jobs vs. female jobs, we just tend to prefer male and female traditional chores. It works for us, but that's not for every couple.


He pays bills online. I can't think of anything else indoors.


I work from home; it makes sense for me to do the housework because his hourly wage is much greater, plus I'm pretty neutral to it, meaning I don't hate to do it. I'm not always "enthusiastic" per POJA. I do believe he is a bit sexist on this issue, but maybe I made it really easy for him by not minding doing housework.

I do mind the criticism. I think it's jerky, and that if he wants super-clean, do it himself, or meet my needs for DS which are FAR from being met.


We are getting there. I think this would make him really angry right now with so many new boundary changes coming at once. I'm preparing myself for this by writing the number of hours I spend on housework each day on the calendar.


When my dresser drawer broke, and he promised to fix it, I left the top of it messy in protest to the amount time he was taking to keep his promise. He got mad about the mess. He asked me to clean it up. My solution was to clean the top of the dresser but put the stuff that was supposed to go into the broken drawer into the EMPTY SPOT in the dresser. It looks SO cheesy! He hates cheesy. But now it is super clear that the next step is his.

I'm hoping we learn to communicate so I don't have to go about expressing my needs this way. He is the kind of man that promises you everything (in terms of fixing these,) but delivers nothing.


I feel the same.

[/quote]

I'm so happy you are watching my back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

She gave me a big hug and apologized. She just didn't know. I told her, I just didn't know how to tell her it was bothering me.

In the end, we both agree it was DH's fault <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. He has been waiting for her visit so he could ask her to clean. She agrees, that is NOT a nice thing to do to me. She said, if her husband had asked his mom to do his laundry, she would have been SO offended.

I explained how I supressed my needs because he had asked me to just let her go at it. But that just wasn't my style. And, yes, DH did a LOT to hurt me PLUS did make some snide remarks (two) about me and the housecleaning. If only he knew how MANY times I pulled myself back from doing housework because I was getting furious with him for the things he would not fix or help me with -- for instance, moving the furniture for me to vacuum under before his mom arrived. No matter how many times I asked, he would not help. I think it is a good chore for partners to share. But he would not do it. He didn't refuse, he just never did it.

I complimented her on standing up for herself. She is just like me, just recently learning how to set boundaries. It really helped her understand where I was coming from, vice versa.

Yuck. Last night, I found out, I am still stuck in Plan A!


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs. -- DS being one of his highest ENs, I have been putting in two hours a day towards housework.

"Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be. -- His mother and I were in a really good mood last night. We do get along quite well, so clean home, fun atmosphere, though earlier 'incident' played on his mind.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage. -- We get along quite well in day to day life, kept going forward. But perhaps I'm not bringing enough specific examples to his mind. It's strange; he loves to do puzzles, thinks it's great fun for both of us, so he bought two more last night. HE is doing this step for me!

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking. -- I'm enjoying doing the housework more knowing he asked for it, now he's going to get it. Whether I nag him or not, whether I make SDs or not, the things he has not fixed will become MORE & MORE obvious! That is giving me an ironic motivation.

Stop lovebusting behaviors. -- I did pretty darn good yesterday. It is rare for DH to stand up for me. Even with the incident with his mom, I was still respectful and loving towards him. When I found out he stood up for me the second time, it made it easy.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel. -- Working on this, I get so shaky and upset. Last night went better. After all the threats of divorce, I am getting (unfortunately) more at ease with the concept. He can't think this is good, that I am preparing for divorce (not obviously, but in our AO the other night, he could only conclude his behavior might drive me to do that.)

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to. -- Working on this. The DS is going well. In AS, I have to color my hair/get it cut. This has been awkward between guest and bad driving weather. Financial Support, I took January off basically because I had to. Back to work this month.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery. -- I love him a lot and am sincerely open to this.

Offering forgiveness and understanding. -- Did it. The ex thing finally came to a resolution.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth. -- Done.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way. -- Done. Yes, he expected an apology, has tried various ways to get it.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused. -- Done.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous. -- Done. (Gosh, it never even crossed my mind!)

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous. -- Done. He says he was humiliated, even though it was really only one person!

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders. -- Not sure how to go about this. I did apologize to his mom for the AOs in front of her. She understood. My DS is not strongly impacted by the EA.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family. -- I did shout at him one night, "Give me your word that you will do everything you can to FIGHT for our marriage, and to keep people who would tear us apart OUT of our lives." He said, "Yes," but only to shut me up. At least it is now clear this is what I expect of him.

WHY I AM STILL STUCK IN PLAN A:

(I will use the analogy of buying and selling coins as our on the side job. The rare items we buy and sell are actually different. I just don't want to be thought of as trying to sell anything here at MB.)

DH and I co-buy and sell coins (see above.) We spend a lot of the time on the road looking for what we need. We co-sell and split the profit 50/50.

In order to get more money, my DH has promised to help an old partner buy and sell, too. I said I felt left out of that, but that I understood he was trying to increase our earnings. DH thinks it's uncool that only 50% of the profit will come to our household, but he plans to do it anyway.

Last night, he told me that he was traveling to CANADA with this old partner to look at coins! And that I was not invited! I AM a partner too. The ONLY reason that I would not be ALLOWED to come is that I have BOOBS!

If I were a male partner, there would have been no question! I said, "This is purely sexist, and you know it. We do this together. I am your partner, and I deserve to go."

He said, "I don't want my friend to think that I am kitty-whipped." He confirmed this was a purely SEXIST decision on his part.

A little extra background: This old partner cheats on his wife. There is a 100% chance that he would be kitty-hunting while they were in Canada. Is this a factor in my DH's decision-making process? (I didn't bring this up or accuse.)

DH piped up, "But it's not an overnight trip!" I said, "It's a fourteen hour drive, round trip!" He didn't know. He thought it would be 8 hours. OF COURSE it's an overnight trip.

He started to falter. I said, "Since you are planning to do this yourself, I was thinking of buying XYZ coins online. I have enough money. Since you won't teach me to grade coins (he's been training his MOM instead of me because he's been so ticked at me; he's supposed to be training me; boy, does he like to rub things in,) I am going to buy those coins to train myself."

"Buying those coins affects both of us! THAT is a decision that should be made TOGETHER!"

See the irony?

"What you need is a FRIEND." (His thinking, if I had a friend, I'd let him go to Canada, no prob? I don't think so.) "You should HANG A SIGN AROUND YOUR NECK..."

"What if instead of worrying about making friends at church, I go to back to college instead?" We had discussed it before, he had been for it, but I lacked the six months residency needed for a lower rate. Now I've been here more than that. (It would be easy to make friends at college; I get overwhelmed at church.)

Nope, he changed his mind. "I will ONLY be supportive of this if your studies are related to a JOB!" I said, they would be. My passion is sales. "Well, how do I know you won't drop out? I will ONLY be supportive of this if you stick with it, otherwise IT'S A WASTE OF OUR MONEY."

With his negative attitude, I decided to continue this discussion later.

He said, "I don't want a W* wife! You are clamping down a lot lately." *A friend's wife who keeps a super-clean home and is controlling.

I said, "You are asking for a W* wife. You want a super-clean home. You want this, you want that. If you want these things, you will have to be a M*-type husband." M* is W*s husband, DH's best-friend. He believes his friend is kitty-whipped.

"What do you mean by that?"

"When W* asks M* to fix things, he does it. Yard needs raking, he does it. YOu are asking me to be W* in the house; that means you will need to be a M* in balance."

He was pretty upset. We went to sleep. Where the heck am I now?

If he does go to Canada without me, I think that is the same as declaring himself single for two days. I want to ask him, "Since you are leaving and declaring yourself single until you get home with your behavior, I guess you are putting your blessing on me being single these two days too?" I think this would be an LB, but it seems to fit the occasion.

Making that announcement about Canada last night really set me on edge. I was up till 4:30 am worrying about it. I don't knnow what to do. Maybe if I step back, his plans will fall to pieces. He said he'd "think about" taking me. I'm getting disgusted from all angles.

But when I get disgusted, I enter LB land. Sometimes his selfishness is just too much for me. I don't even know where his LB balance is at today.

I'm trying to make deposits to his LB myself, but he is at work right now.

The LB and HNHN books have just arrived. I can see that I am not being consulted on the plans he makes for 'us' or for himself.

The above argument about Canada shows that. He saying, "These are my plans with my friend. You are not invited. That's that."

No Joint Agreement. No enthusiasm. He holds all the cards. "Could I come, too, Daddy?" "I'll think about it," he says.

At the same time, I cannot have an AO about this? Very difficult. I have no inkling towards physical anger, just emotional. The words RAILROADED come to mind.

Over and over again in this relationship, I am RAILROADED into doing things as he wants to. And what happens if your husband doesn't care about the POJA? Things are working just fine for him as is. He is the boss of me. He loves it. Setting boundaries is wifey changing for the worse. He wants a divorce. I can see that he has no motivation to change.

What would motivate him to change? I do want to be consulted on plans that affect our lives. I do want to be part of the decision-making process. I've forfeited that right way too long. I've subjugated myself to him to the point of it being a bad habit, "Let him make all the decisions."

I'm no longer in that place. I want a say. I want to plan ahead. I don't want to be at his mercy anymore.

I want him to want to participate in this.

As sorry as I am to say it, I think the only leverage you have any more is to leave, or make him leave, or at least to threaten it. As you say, why else should he change? If cooperation is a key function of M, and he will not agree, what marriage is there? I wish I had better ideas for you. I guess the bottom line, here from the side lines (and which may not be accurate, as you're the only one there), is that if he wants you in his life, he will have to listen to you and care to change, or you will not include him in your life.

I can see setting boundaries for rude talk, or DJs, or things he actually does TO you. But how do you set a boundary on not caring? If anyone knows, I'd like to hear it.

Hmmm.... I think he cares. But I guess that is it. If I set boundaries, make changes, stop LBs, start meeting ENs, will he change? Will he start to hear me? Will he shows he cares by using a sort of POJA, if only that means he at least seeks my input on decisions?

I guess he does now. I painted a dark picture. When it comes to when will we do this? Should we do this or this? Should we buy this or this? He does consult me.

But there are certain things where he does not, like the trip to Canada. It irritates me from all sorts of angles. I'M the traveler. I'M the one who's been to Canada many times. I'M the one that knows how to get around there. I'M the one that can speak and read a little French. This is MY type of thing.

They are two country boys. I'm making DJs, so no, I didn't speak them outloud. But, SHEESH. He is making the fact that being his wife is a LIABILITY in our relationship. If I was a hot, new love, I'd be invited.

It'd be like me going to a motorcycle show (not my thing, his) with a girlfriend, and saying, to bad, so sad, you are a boy, you can't go.

Plus, I'm not the throwback he is. I didn't live like this before him. I don't have to ask permission to take college courses!

But he knows that. Even when he tries to dominate me, I see that he falters. He's not dealing with a newbie here. He's not dealing with a woman who has not been out in the world and had her freedom! I supported myself for many years before this illness. Lived on my own since eighteen.

When he tries to railroad right over me, I find myself in an angry, tearful outburst. But now I'm starting to run out of tears. And the anger is abusive, so that's why I am questioning where I go from here. And, yes, leaving is an option.

But I'm seeing signs of change. I thought he'd flip out when he saw the books had arrived. He didn't. I can keep them out.

He has been more introspective and asking more questions lately. He seems really curious about the therapy in my past (for anxiety and stress.) Sometimes it's preseneted in a DJ, "You're crazy! What were you in therapy for again?" Other times, "How does that work? What is it?"

Last night, he watched an episode of, "In Treatment" on HBO. It's basically a recorded therapy session using actors. He watched the whole thing, letting me hold him.

That is NOT like him. If there isn't violence or humor, he's not watching it.

Personally, I do think he needs therapy. The fact that he never knew his biological father was a big, "Ding! Ding! Ding!" that he would have damage. Little did I know how bad the damage was, from other things, too, of course.

His family is NOT ideal. Mother, fragile. Brother, con artist. Sister, alcoholic/drug addict. Steals pain pills from her chronically-ill son. Nieces, promiscuous and/or alcoholics/drug addicts.

He suffers a lot and hurts a lot. I can see it. I can feel it. It stuff I can't help him with. I wish he would see an IC.

I feel pretty well balanced -- when separate from him. I'm not in that state of what would you call it? High-anxiety that I was when I needed therapy before. I was sent a letter from my therapist saying we reached the end of our need for sessions. (Yes, she had told me in person she thought I was fine.)

Having a bad morning. Cracked my head and my knee -- HARD -- on the edge of the bedroom door. I have a huge goose egg with a gash-looking line on my forehead. I cracked my knee so bad I'm limping. DH forgot his cell-phone. I have to shovel out the deeply buried car because DH worked a long shift. Now if I get stuck on the way to pick up my son for visitation, I'd have to call my ex for help vs. my DH. NOT putting me in a good mood.

Then there were four. His mom is here, soon my son will be here too (for two days.) DH's mood could be ripe tonight. I don't know. Sometimes he plays PS3 games with my son.

I'm just spinning in circles. Will squeeze in reading the books when I can. Thank you for the words of kindness.