Hello All!

I am clear headed enough to retry my story. The first attempt was full of anger and frustration. I also thought that her coworker in HR was going to show her the site, but I think that was just wishful thinking.

Married 10 years, my first, her third. We have had lots of crises over the years- especially the last 2 years, and things were starting to go good when we moved here 6 months ago. We usually have great, regular SF, have always been close (shower together almost daily for 10 years until 10-07), have always been like best friends- me a little more that her. She isn't a very communicative or open person. Also her marriage behaviour has always been bad. My way or the highway, separate unaccountable finances, taking me for granted, lieing to friends (man hating), an and on. I am now questioning events in the past that resemble my current situation. I feel she has had one foot out the door for the past 8 years, and now I think I know why. Lol when we got married I knew of 1 marriage for 6 months (he cheated) that I have recently discovered she had to sneak around before we were married and living together to file for her second D behind my back. She basically just left, and said separation. That is exactly what she is doing now. Just moved out and saying separated. I knew of the live-in sitch from way in her past, but also confirmed she was married to him this first time too (he cheated). So, WTF? Get problems, cut and run. I truly feel now that she has always been paranoid about me cheating. I accepted that all these years, but she is ruining our marriage now because of it, and I guess felt the need to move on before we could work it out or not the right way. 1 1/2 years ago she is convinced that I did cheat on her. We have sort of worked through it, I was accountable, she had the ability to verify my work hours, income, whereabouts, etc. Plus, no "red flags". I have discovered all of her past stuff now about lieing, deception, trickery, and after getting crazy (36) red flags and finding this site 10-07 (the ILYBNILWY, "find myself" timeframe) I confronted, and I think preempted her having a PA (this time?). I don't have any real proof, but have been playing an awesome mind game to the point where she thinks I have cameras and such installed in her new "love shack", gps locator on her car, voice activated recorders, and an unknown friend tailing her places. I also busted her without her wedding ring at work twice, and crashed her company christmas party where I wasn't invited (family party), and introduced myself to management of being Mr.foglights,busted her without her ring again, I left, she got wasted, "stayed with a friend" maybe, then went to a family memebers house the rest of the weekend.

I have been doing a mediocre plan A since October, and have been doing a perfect plan A since she moved out 2 weeks ago. Yesterday we had an awesome day together for the first time in awhile although I couldn't even get a hug when I left. I still shook her hand. Lol. It seems really unclear what she wants. I know she is fence sitting, wont do D paperwork, possibly cake eating, but if she is, she is VERY good at it. No cellphone issues, unaccountability isn't too bad, but I think she has been doing it on purpose to anger me. Since the move out I have left her alone, and she does little things like call me before bed, or answering her cell if I call to let her know stuff.

Also, with her troubled past, at first I was pushing her away for what she was doing to me, but lately I have come to the realization that I need to prove to her that I will never just "run away" from her life, and that I am truly commited to trying to make it work. I truly think she needs help. IC for sure. MC after that. All the bad relationships, marriages, SF abuse as a child, on and on. However, she has given NOTHING. I have been pushing for counseling since october. I am afraid that around 1 week into February, I am going to plan B. Mainly, I know her "monthly time", and I know how she acts to me needing SF shortly before. So, new years day was the last time we SF'd(day before monthly cycle). It was actually great too. So, if she doesn't seem to be interested in SF in early Feb, then I will know it is highly likely that an A of some sort is still ongoing. I don't want to just D and run away, I think she really does need someone to always be there for her, but she REALLY has a wall built up around her heart. I don't think I was ever truly in, even though we had such a close R. I really don't want to lose my M, but I am not going to be walked on either. I have always been the give, give, giver. I would just be happy to be with someone in a R with that could fill my EN with or without her even though I don't think I could ever feel about someone the way I feel about her.

Thanks for the help and support, and I have been reading ALOT for these few months, and couldn't have made it this far without MB and you folks!!!

Hi foglight,

A couple of questions:

In your tag you have d-day as around 11-10, but in your post it doesn't sound like you discovered an affair. Did you or didn't you?

Why the mind games...why not just actually do the investigation and find out one way or another?

Personally, I see some red flags in your post....not infidelity....but "control issues". Does your wife call you "controlling"?

I also see alot of lovebusting. What steps have you taken to do the "perfect" Plan A?

What reasons does she give for leaving?

Why are you thinking about going to Plan B in February? If you only perfected Plan A two weeks ago....isn't it a little soon for Plan B (especially since you haven't verified an affair)?

If you didn't do a really good Plan A until she left you....don't you think it's likely that she thinks your Plan A is just manipulative....and not real?

I'm not busting your chops here....but I really want to make sure you have the best chance of making these plans work for you.

Thanks starfish!

FYI I get along great with almost everyone, but I cannot tell you how difficult my wife is to deal with. I must say it is really tough love, and has always hurt me. She gets VERY angry, and has hauled off and attacked me 4 times over the years.

I really only use the term d-day because that was when I really confronted the issue and got a ILYBINILWY, need space, find myself, etc and she WILL NOT communicate at all. Based of piecing evidence, a newly separated coworker (management), MAJOR, MAJOR behavioral changes, won't go anywhere local with me at all since october, but its ok when we go on the weekend an hour away, teeny bopper clothes, whole new attitude, complete abandonment of us and home (iv'e been doing ALL chores since october, lied about a work get together on 11-10-07 came home and had uncomfortable SF for the first time in 10 years, me talking to her HR director after christmas semi-verifying to me a coverup at work (he later told me to just D because of her cake eating).

I have her cell phone account, hacked her yahoo, myspace, etc. read an email about her "cute guy at work" followed her a few times, but I think my instant vigilance in the beginning thanks to MB may have exposed early enough to "end the party" at work. Plus, I think she figured out he was a "player" and may have lost interest. Unless he is just an SF buddy only. Funds are low for me now especially with her moveout, so I cant do much more except maybe tail her when she doesn't suspect it.

No, im not controlling. She has always been. I am just trying to get both of us to be accountable to the marriage to see where we are going. Because she has taken advantage of my giving over the years, she doesn't like this now, and up until move out would make up excuses to go "shopping" sometimes to 3 grocery stores in 1 day for example with only a handful of things each. I think to purposely make me uneasy. She would even sleep with her car key in her bra to not allow me to see what she bought leading up to christmas, and she didn't even get me anything! Mounds and mounds of shopping bags daily for a month. With nothing to show for it but a few pieces of clothing.

I have been doing the best I can to avoid lovebusting all this time, but when I say she has really gone over the edge, I am not lieing. Anger, resentment, DJ all the time, and completely irrational. I LB'd one time in particular because of her looking like a tart in front of a child of her relative with her thong hanging out of her crack in low waist pants that up until a few months ago we both used to joke about when we saw people dressed that way. That is just unreasonable for anyone.

Her reasons for leaving- based on her limited talk that was forced out in late october is ILYBINILWY, wants stability (I think the guy makes good money), need to "find herself", space, time to think, that moving out is "separated", issues with me "getting away" with cheating, happier living alone, maybe others I don't remember.
Maybe you are right, and it is too soon for plan B. Im just am unsure how long I can hold it together. I am feeling a lot stronger lately, though. Especially after a good day yesterday with her. It is tough trying to get her around for 15 hours a week, and that just makes it MORE frustrating. I can't even get her to come over to visit with the pets now, although the first week after moveout I convinced her to come eat dinner and stuff 5 days that week and we had a decent time even though she attacked a few times each visit.

As far as my current plan A, I dont get angry when she uses MAJOR MAJOR insults, LB, etc. I cant even have a phone conversation with her because she will verbally attack at the drop of a hat, then hang up. Now, I just avoid the topic, and ask if she wants to discuss things, I cannot do it over the phone. When she tried a few times coming over for laundry, she verbally attacked, then stormed out when I didn't reciprocate the fighting- HALFWAY THROUGH HER LAUNDRY! I of course finished, folded, and later took it to her. Sometimes I call her back repeatedly and show no anger, frustration, etc. when she does the hangups, sometimes I wait to let her cool down, and try to show real compassion because I do care. Its hard to see someone you love and knowing how torn up they are with themselves. I think it is just guilt for becoming someone she's not for a short while. Or at least someone I won't allow her to be while she is married. I once told her it was a shame she wanted stability, but never wanted to work together with me to create it. An example of reverse fog babble I was using. Like I said, we moved here 6 months ago and I hit the ground running. I have spent 6 months rebuilding our lives and working towards a happier us. Savings, 401k, saving for another house, buying her things to surprise her, trying to include her in everything in my life, work, socializing together, etc. I just think she had made her mind up, and now pushes me away because she isn't wanting to "really commit" after 8 years of a foot out the door. Then I found out how closed off her life had become almost the minute she started her new job. No desk phone #, refused her work email to me when I had something important to send her, refused to have lunch with me when we always used to in the past, then no local trips to the store began, busted without her ring at work/work functions 3 times, etc. etc, etc.

Bust my chops away! After what I have been through, my armor is way too thick for some positive advice and questions to hurt me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the help again! Maybe I do need to fine tune my plan now.

Once again, the story of the scorpion and the frog immediately comes to mind.

My suggestion would to not waste any more time on that woman. You deserve better.

Wow. What do you LIKE about your wife?

I like her beautiful smile, how she makes me feel when things are good, GREAT SF, her laugh, how things are when we just take off and do unusual things out of the blue on a saturday or so, just having someone with me, a good companion, strong character, the way she loves (or used to love) animals, the way she is I suppose. I always loved me for being there for someone who had had a rough life earlier on, bad relationships, and always sticking it out no matter how bad things had gotten here and there over the years.

The other day she insulted me with, "I'm sorry your mother didn't teach you how to love." My reverse babble back was, "you're right, she didn't teach me that. You taught me how to love." This is when she had to leave in the middle of doing her laundry. It wasn't a LB, but it was true. I had already told her in early Nov. that no matter what, at that point she was fully forgiven, and we needed to start working together. Obviously, she must have not agreed. I know the guilt she must feel, but I just want her to communicate, put it aside, and work on us. All I can say to relate to how I feel is this: her hurt is hurting me more than it is hurting her. I truly think she had an A in May 2005 when she went to her hometown to visit family for a month. I have some phone records from back then and some of the #'s called are NOT family members. Since then, we hit some rocky times and she is CONVINCED I cheated on her 1 1/2 years ago. I can see now that it was probably because of her guilt. I always had given her the benefit of the doubt all these years, but now that I have gone digging, I have found out A LOT more than I would have ever imagined about deceit. All I want is it all in the open, AND THEN decide what WE want to do together. Not just running away like she is now.

I really feel that if I were to walk away like I probably should, that I would just be like every other weak person she could never rely on before. I would really feel like I would be letting her down in a time of need. Sorry, thats just how I feel. I told her a few weeks back that I was sorry she finally had to see unconditional love for the first time this way, and not over our lifetime.

foglights,

Wow....she sounds pretty high maintenance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Okay, here's what I want you to do....and considering your high energy....it's not going to be easy. Slow down and detach a little bit. Men are fixers....and you're working desperately to make her change her mind....and you can't. You don't have control over what she does. Refocus your energy on your own changes.

After three marriages....it sounds like your wife is used to walking away instead of working things out. And my guess is that the more pressure you put on her right now....the more she's going to struggle to get away.

I believe you when you say you aren't normally controlling....but right now....you're working overtime wondering, worrying etc. That's normal....but it won't help bring your wife home. Sometimes the best way to win a tug of war is to let go of the rope.

She sounds really confused, and more like she's running away than she has someone special to run TO. It's almost like she's going through a midlife crisis (which can include lots of acting out and meaningless affairs) rather than a single affair.

But Plan A is not kissing her backside....I think you're being way to generous and accomodating. And you're putting up with way too much abuse!! If you want an abusive wife back....well then, keep teaching her to abuse you.

Stop pursuing her. Drop the rope. Don't seek her out....let her seek you out. When you see her....no lovebusters....but stop the constant calls, the ILUs etc. You need to step back away from her chaos....or she's going to suck you right into it. I know it's hard to watch her flounder....but one of you has to remain grounded and I elect you.

Plan A is not about being a doormat....it's about making the marriage an attractive alternative to the affair (or to leaving the marriage). But you sound as though you've always been more invested than she has....and I almost wish there was an affair....because then you'd know what you're fighting. Right now...it's hard to tell. It's like she's fighting herself and sabotaging her own life. You may not be able to stop her from doing that if she really wants to....but you can be the port in the storm.

I wish I could be more encouraging....but this is a tough situation and I'm not sure what's really going on with your wife.

Dude,

Seriously, if you don't have kids, break ties, count your blessings to be free of such a woman and find one that is nothing like her.

There's a lot of baggage there on her end and it's stuff you're not going to fix easily and that drives her behavior.

Bail. You're young and have no kids with her. She sounds like a real piece of work. If you're waiting for a miracle, you aren't going to get it with someone that is that narcissistic.

Booya! Narcissistic - if that's what she is, and it sure sounds like it, RUN don't walk. I wasted 5 years on such a woman, and after I left the light came on.

What a serious waste of my time! Wish I could've seen it earlier, but now it's water under the bridge.

Not so with you, foglights. You have the chance to get out now without wasting another minute. It isn't your job to save her from the messes she creates.

Ok, just a few red flags - accusing you of cheating pretty much means she is. (An ex did this repeatedly, but I wasn't. Turned out, you guessed it, she was each time, and explained it with "I thought you were, so I did.")

Not being with you locally but only an hour away - she is hiding you from someone.

Teeny bopper clothes - a dead giveaway when they improve personal appearance but not for you.

I think you need to back off trying to get her to come to you, and just be by yourself, being the best you can. She'll see the light, and if she doesn't, you are better off without her.

Took me a long time to leave "Little Miss Can't Be Wrong," and I feared I could never love another the same, or even find another (she told me that!) Boy, was I wrong. My wife is amazing, and if I had stayed with Miss Wrong, I never would have found her.

What else do you need to know?

Wow! Thanks guys.

Now you see my problem. Between the holidays and moveout, I helped her move! She truly is a very independent type person. I was pushing her away and out somewhat. ******, I live in a college town. Who wouldn't want to be single here?

But, like I said, and I agree with starfish. I can't let it drag me down. I think I will try to break the ties, and see what happens. I ended up with a DUI in early Dec. from all of this and am going to see a lawyer in an hour about it, the same week crunched the front right corner of a car I bought for her brand new in late '05 that she never drove (guilt? who knows) and I was stuck with. Early Dec. was a big eye opener for me. The car truly sums up my marriage now. Me driving around a shell of good intent and what was, and was rejected. Lol

Pal, you are only 33 and have the world at your finger tips. When you aren't looking, you will find someone wonderful. If not, have fun living!

Trying to remember 33........

Wow, Cymanca. I was with that type woman for 5 years. I could see so much of what I went through, and still am going through, in that article.

After reading that article, I must say that the relationship type stuff hits the nail on the head. Some of the stuff not related to the relationship aspects I don't think apply too much ie. I don't think she is suicidal. If she was starting something at work with an OM, it was probably like the article states about rebound relationships. Thats one thing I have told her, if she was done with me, she should have communicated, D, moved on. NOT what she was trying to do. I am assuming that now, she wants to move on, stay married for the financial benefits of it, and does whatever she wants. I have put my foot down on this issue since the beginning. She's not getting her way, and that has made things worse no matter how many times I have told her to think about things before she impulsively acts like she has been for several months.

I do agree about the no grey area. I look back and see how she labels everything black and white. Our relationship, interactions with other people, etc. I think thats why once your on the "wrong" side, there is no coming back. I think in her mind thats where I have gone somehow. Lets just say that she never forgives, and holds a grudge about ANYTHING like you wouldn't believe.

Thanks for the link.

foglights,

This type of woman is anything but independent. She likes to think she's independent, but in fact depends on a man to make her feel better about herself. She's not happy being alone and bails when relationships get real and are no longer the happy fantasy she painted.

Seriously, you will never fix this type of woman and will condemn yourself if you stay with her. My ex fiance was like this. My exww? Similar traits.

They can't be fixed. They will always have a sense of entitlement and not understand that the world really doesn't revolve around them.

Bail. Take time to be alone. Move to Japan and live with a farmer there for a year and get away to gather yourself.

Come back and look for women that are nothing like her.

Yeah starfish I think you are right about the midlife crisis thing. I think I can see 10 years married, mid life crisis, rough two years, new town, new job, maybe some attention from OM just being a culmination of life events. But like I said, I think thanks to MB, I confronted early, it may have possibly opened her eyes somewhat, and she is just guilt-laden to have resorted to all of the lies and deceit, and been busted every step along the way.

I am going to try your approach and consider it a plan B for now, but with no letter as I think that would just fuel her fire. The last 2 days have been more amicably communicative than things have been for months. So, I will give her space, and see if she comes around. My birthday is Feb 13, and valentine's is the next day, so I will be able to gauge her feelings based on her reactions to either or both days. I had asked her to be my valentine during new years, so we shall see.

Thanks for the situation specific advice again!

pomdbd3

Yeah, I think I am going to head down that path, but allow her a short time to decide for herself. If she truly commits to accepting her faults, communicates the situations, gets help, etc. I may work with her. If not. See ya!

You don't know the irony of what you said about living with a Japanese farmer for a year. Do you know me, my wife, or our situation really? I'll explain later. Lets just say that I got goosebumps by that statement, and I would probably do it too!

foglights,

A Plan B without the letter is just withdrawal. What I'd really like to see you do is loving detachment instead. I want to give you this list....it's actually part of Michelle Weiner Davis's divorce busting strategies....but it works really well with "walkaway" spouses who aren't really running to someone in particular.....just running. And it also works well with Plan A....which is where you still need to be. Use this loosely as your guide.....keeping in mind that you're concentrating on moving 180 degrees from things that are NOT working. If something isn't broken....don't fix it. So use the ones that apply to you.

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

I would go live with a Japanese farmer if I didn't have kids. I'm divorced from a woman several mental health professionals have told me they suspect she has borderline personality.

Nothing I do is right. She feels free to do anything she wishes with our children, to the point that she wishes to move them away from me, and doesn't understand that I'm an equal to her in their lives.

So if I didn't have any children, I'd move away to Japan and be a gaijin trying to learn the language and work for a farmer while completely immersed in the language.

I would then take that knowledge and find a way to make millions off of knowing Japanese, English, and Spanish.

That's a fantasy I'll never get to live out, at least while my kids are young. I'll be an old man by the time I could do such a thing and move away. So it will have to be a Japanese farmer with a very open mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Baka ne! Gaijin!

I printed that list and am going to read it daily for a long time.

So, should I just implement this plan, B letter or no? Would this still be part of plan A? We have discussed "custody" of letting her rotate a cat or two to her new place. Should I even allow that? Or refuse and force her to come spend time "at home" so we can try to get in 15 hours a week or so?

Don't forget the irony of what I said about your statement. I'll try to PM or just post later dependent on if I think she comes here or not. You will get a big laugh I guarantee!!!