FHL. I echo your comments. I too seem to be a safe person for men and women to talk to. I have had friends of both sexes feel free to open up to me, both here in my hometown, and while traveling and at conferences. As my favorite cousin and my daughter have both commented, I am just very open and people sense that. In one instance I can think of the woman just kind of let it all out. After talking with me for a couple of evenings over wine, dinner, and dancing (nothing more) she got her mind together and is now a happily married woman. <BR>I understand that my W is threatened. But eliminating contact with OW is virtually impossible unless I am willing to give up going to the club in the morning, and to playing racquetball. I am not willing to do that. Yes, some people will say that is selfish, but I feel if I don't have that outlet, I don't know that my W will want me around anyway since I have now recognized my unhappiness and have found an outlet. I also have periodic contact with OW during the workday since we work in the same building. I knew OW when she was married. She divorced several years back and I was an open ear again for her to vent about that. She also was in another serious relationship a year ago. We have continued to play racquetball all this time. I have tried to eliminate any one-on-one time where it is just the two of us in a quiet unsupervised setting. The interactions are at the club, or with a group of friends. <BR>As I have told my W, it has been a long time since I felt like she really loved me. It always felt like she was just being affectionate or loving because she was married to me and had to. I look at it as we must put our all into loving one another so that we can feel like it is real. She is very seldom cheerful and happy to see me get home at the end of the day even though I come in bouncing off the walls with the joy of life. It is very depressing. <BR>Sorry to ramble. And I will say it again, I do appreciate the comments and suggestions. Thanks. <BR>

Hose A...<P>There must be a reason why you are here on this forum? Did you come here because you sense that your so-called platonic friendship is growing into something more?? I have a feeling it is growing into something more and you just don't want to admit it. You are willing to risk your marriage for a racquetball outing with a so-called friend. Doesn't your marriage mean more to you than racquetball???

Hose,<BR>Please correct me if I am wrong, but you are basically saying that although you already have feelings for OW, and although your wife feels threated (which you see as legitimate) you will not modify your behavior other than not having unsupervised one on one's with her?<P>By the way, what is your wife's side of the story? What is her answer when you tell her it feels like a long time since she really has loved you? Why would she say she is not happy or cheerful to see you? Would she say she is not willing to put her all into the marriage or would she say she is?<P>Why do you love your wife? I mean the OW may be more attractive physically and better suited to you recreationally. What are your wife's strong points? Do you at any level blame or resent you wife for her physical limitations? Did you go into the marriage knowing they would exist? (I'm not asking you to compare or keep score, but rather see how you may percieve the OW as being more desirable which has to affect how you see your wife)<P>One more question, is how much respect and protection you give to your wife and marriage conditional on how she treats you? Or could you honor your vows regardless of what you are getting back in the relationship. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

She says she is sorry for the way she treated me in the past. She doesn't know why she treated my the way she did. She says she wants the marriage to survive. But her actions speak differently than her words. She knows that one of my emotional needs is recreation and she can't meet that, and that she is afraid affection and intimacy will not be enough and that may be stopping her from putting the effort into it. She maintains that she has always loved me. She claims she was caught up in the power and control of her job and that she did neglect me and the kids in the past. Now she wants me to forgive and go forward, but at the same time we cannot recapture any of that because she is now physically limited. <BR>I love my wife because she is a good person, attractive (more so than OW), good sense of humor, responsible. In many ways we are compatible such as our values, but I feel like what we have had for a long time is a business partnership called marriage. I loved her unconditionally in the past and gave her all the affection and attention I could. I was flat out rejected. Yes I stayed in it and didn't not scream often enough I guess because she didn't hear my pleas. Now that I have really broken down and cried about it and how lost I am she talks of wanting to improve but the actions aren't there. I still come home and try to perk her up. I kiss her and hug her whenever I can, but there is little to no response. In our last joint session when we were talking of separating for a while, we both talked of feeling a sense of relief, like a weight lifted off our chests. I could see the deep love and respect we have for each other. But it almost seems like it is more of a friendship type of love, a caring love. <BR>As to the future, I am reluctant to continue being lonely in my marriage where there is little affection. This is a repeat of the past where I let her know my needs and things improved for a bit and then went back. If she is willing to share her affection and intimacy with me, I will be here for her. If not, as much as it hurts, I may not be. The simple answer to whether I could continue to honor the vows regardless of what I get back in the relationship is no if there is nothing there to the relationship. <BR>

Hose, why not just come out and admit it? You are having an affair. You might not have had sex, but you are having an affair. You had years and years of unmet needs, and your love bank is empty. This OW comes along, and fills one of your primary needs (recreational, maybe emotional, and at some point, it'll be sexual). <P>This is not about your W being unable to do the things you like to do so you have to find other people to do them with, this is about getting back at her for all the years you feel she neglected you.<P>And now you've broken down and told her how you feel, but you've also told her there's this OW/"friend". Swell. I know that's a situation that would make ME feel more affectionate.<P>Well, now, come to think of it, it did. (Read my profile.) But I'm me, and your W is herself, and she doesn't have this site. In the absence of this site, I'd probably be like your W -- withdrawing from my H because he's hurt me with an inappropriate friendship, and feeling there's nothing I can do, that he's rejected me, and feeling just utterly betrayed and hurt. Instead I came here, learned about Plan A, and now things are better.<P>One things we don't know -- how does your W feel? What are her needs? What are you doing for her? Let me tell you, Hose, continuing to have a friendship with another woman that you're aware you have serious feelings for, when you know it upsets your W, is a major lovebuster. <P>You are going to have to decide whether you can handle putting some of your needs aside in order to keep your marriage. I have needs that my H will never meet. I need him to talk. I need him to communicate, and he can't. I need to feel secure, and I don't have that feeling anymore, and I probably never will. But I love him and I'm committed to my marriage, and I'm willing to accept him for what he is.<P>How do you think your W feels when she sees you out being active and she can't participate? It sounds like she has some sort of illness or disability that has probably caused her a certain amount of clinical depression.<P>You need to decide whether the "for worse" part of your vows still applies for you, and see about getting you and your W the help you need -- without OW in the picture. <P>You want to stay married and be able to turn to other women for other needs, and you want our approval for it. Sorry, pal, you're not going to get it here.<BR>

HoseA,<P>Give her up...right now...do not pass go...do not collect $200.00. <P>This is a disaster...your wife has a legitimate complaint and has the right to have that need met. <P>If you don't do it you'll always have this standing between you. You are in essence telling her that relationship with OW is more important then her. <P>You must be able to find male companionship out there. <P>My husband's affair started with recreational companionship. We are recovery slowly and it still hurts so bad it is awful. <P>Please for all of your sake's cut your ties with OW immediately...<P>I'll be praying for all involved.<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

Hose<BR>Now things are a little clearer. I would guess that you are less willing to give up your activities with this circle of friends and OW because they fill your need for intimacy and affection (or a facsimile of intimacy and affection) that you previously had sought from your wife.<P>Could your need for recreation actually be a need for companionship in an activity that you find stimulating? Although you can no longer share physical activities, if you desire a physical activity, you could somehow figure out a solo activity or activities with the guys. The insistance it be with this woman, is really suspect in your "just friends" arguement. If cards is your second recreational outlet, why can't your wife join you now? It seems like your need for raquetball, which your wife can not participate in, is a convenient excuse for the companionship you crave, rather than the physical activity.<P>You feel your wife shorted you for many years and you toughed it out. Sometimes things would get a little better, but then things would slide again. Then you found yourself in this great bunch a people that liked you, appreciated you and liked to do the same things you did. Additionally you developed this special friendship with the OW who I'm betting has pursued you more than you pursued her. You may have acted like her knight by listening and befriending her just because you're that type of guy and it made you feel good. Then this woman grew fond and even emotionally attatched to you. You didn't mean for that to happen, but it sure felt good. Now your wife wants to take all of this away from you and you are afraid if you give it up, you will really not get anything longterm in return. It's an unfair trade, or so it seems.<P>No one knows the particulars of your marriage, but maybe your wife did withdraw first. You seem to be angry and maybe a little bit bitter of what was lost that is impossible to recapture. Hey, don't we all. I hate my H can not erase what he did, but when I decided to stay in the marriage, I had to work on a forgiving spirit and resist the temptation to punish him for a past he has no control to change. Instead I grieve deeply for my losses, mostly in private, and work toward making the marriage the best it can be (which shows every sign of becoming better than it has ever been).<P>Has your wife recently become concerned about your relationship with OW? What triggered that? How was it you ended up in counseling?<P>I have no way of knowing if you are correctly interpreting your wife's actions. She may be hurt, scared, confused, angry or maybe she just doesn't communicate well. Being betrayed or in your wife's case, feeling threatened is a crushing feeling. Total devastation. Please remember that. Maybe your feelings for OW is clouding your own judgment. It is impossible to tell. Can you trace your acute dissatisfaction with your marriage to be roughly the same time frame as your growing connection to this woman, your club activities and your involvement in this group? <P>I may have taken too much of your time alreay, but I had a good marriage and a great family with a what I considered to be a man of integrity. I lacked intamacy I would have liked, but I made do and was really quite happy and content in my life. Then I was crushed, devastated and almost destroyed when I discovered a brief affair that I truly believe had not even become sexual. I knew I needed to keep my family together, but I thought if he could establish a relationship with her that he must have exhibited at least some charm, then I wasn't going to give up until I had the relationship I always wanted. I read, found this place and basically worked my tail off. He cooperates, but to be honest, I lead the effort. Relationships are not his strong point. But I believe he loves and has always loved me more than I assumed he did and the changes I have made has drawn him out and made all the difference in our new relationship. <P>I'm glad I stayed. If you didn't have nagging doubts about all of this, you wouldn't be here, so I hope you find what you are looking for in your marriage as well. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hose,<P>I'm a bit late to this thread, but I had to reply anyway. Hope you're still checking in and reading.<P>HEAR ME PLEASE:<P>I liked the OM **a lot** before I loved him. He and I were, and are, almost exactly alike in our interests. I thought we could chat, and talk, and joke around, all without getting involved. And then one day, when neither of us expected it, IT HAPPENED. We looked in each others eyes and KNEW where it was going. You've already gone THERE. You both know but you'll keep your hearts and hands away from each other? I don't think so. You can pretend all you want. And that is what you're doing: you are pretending that you can be friends with this woman. YOU CAN'T. <P>When I read how you both work out at the same place I about fell outta my chair. All that pumping iron, sweating, getting the blood flowing. Oh, mister, you got it bad.<P>You love your W, and you don't want to hurt her. The ONLY way you will accomplish that is to DROP THAT OW LIKE A HOT COAL. Before it is too late... unless of course it is already too late; which, by the way, I suspect...<P>I am so sorry you are going through this. I know where you're coming from. Been there myself. It's just so much easier to see from my side, having been through all that. I feel for you.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 13, 1999).]

Hose A,<P>I understand your situation very well....it is a very difficult situation to be in..the questions must have already gone thru your head...as to... it seems ridiculous to cut off all contact with any OW because they are female in order to prevent your wife feeling insecure and to protect your marriage from disaster.....<P>Unfortunately disaster can happen easily in these situations...already you must be questioning your committment and wondering if your life is to be controlled by it....<P>Is your social life more important to you than you home life...? I guess what is most important to you will win this...there is a price to pay whichever way you go...for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction..?<P>I guess the bottom line has to be yes if you love your W and dont want to be without her...however you could think yourself into believing you are losing your love or will lose yourlove because of this restriction....and opt for a percieved freedom...but the journey is wracked with pain as you can see in here...<P>Sounds like a return to counselling would be a good idea for both of you...and maybe continuing until the issue is resolved to a win win situation...???<P>I am facing a similar situation with my W..she has a male friend of sometime now and they go to a small function together once a month,(12 months or more now) and talk to each other on the net about 2 or 3 times a week...they share the same thoughts and obviously enjoy each others company and have much to share together....and have been to lunch together a few times and have been to dinner together once when I was out of town... all with my knowledge and approval first....we have no problem communicating are very open with each other, share everything, have much in common and do much together too...also have been thru many issues in therapy and counselling over the years...we have developed a great friendship love respect and honour for each other that includes absolute trust without being blind and unrealistic... <P>I feel uncomfortable about this relationship even tho I trust her implicitly and have faith in her...<P>I have tried to be friends with him but he does not seem to be interested in me only her...he hasnt said so I just feel it...<P>She was going to end her friendship with him last week because I felt this way...and I know she would end it immediately if I asked her to....but I hestitate to do that because I think everyone needs to have a life that is not bound by fears and restriction, the problem is my insecurity not her action....so I asked her not to end it on my behalf... but if she wanted to end it, it must be because she wanted to not becasuse of my fears....she has a right to friends male or female....she has female friends she does the same things with and I dont feel like that with them, so I figure it is my insecurity that is the problem here, so thats what I am working on..and if I can remove that I will have no fear...<P>I am not saying this is what your W should do ....it is very difficult to do this!!!...it takes much strength courage faith and trust...<P>I am doing it because I do not want to be a slave to this feeling everytime my W has a friend I do not like or feel uncomfortable about male or female..and I know this feeling is in me...not in the situation....<P>We have been thru the mill of infidelity and recovery and have been very happy (and still are) for some years now...and have very good understanding but it took a lot of pain to get there....<P>Just for you to ponder...<P>Regards<P>cossie<P>------------------<BR>To know who you are is to see who I am....<P>

I dont know if this fits here but Ive been thinking about it alot lately<BR>it seems to me the quickest and surest way to completely lose someone you genuinely like as a friend, forever out of your life as well as make a complete and utter devastation of three or more lives including yours/your spouse and your so called friend all in one swoop is by entering into an affair with them<BR> <BR>perhaps obvious but oh so true

Hose A:<P>A counselor might listen to your story and empathize with you and your situation. Personally, your story is almost identical to what mine was and that is the biggest crock of **** I have ever heard. I tried to tell myself that my wife wasn't affectionate enough and that justified all my involvement in OWs problems. I always had a "good" ear and they always felt comfortable talking to me and I never wanted to give it up because it made me feel needed and good. Now I see that I was just kidding myself because it did feel "good" and I loved that feeling and the heck with how my W felt. She had her own life doing her thing, helping her friends (all women of course, I would never tolerate her helping OM). Then I woke up one day and I saw that the most important person in my life was drifting away because I forgot how to treat her as the "most" important person in my life. OW were much too interesting to give up until one of the wanted to become permenantly attached. Was I surprised? Not a bit. I believe I secretly wanted that attachment. I didn't want to leave my W but I sure fell in love with the feeling of being "in love"<P>Dazed and Confused hit the nail right on the head. You ARE having an affair and it won't be long before you ruin it all (if you haven't already) by making it sexual. remember curiosity killed the cat.<P>Please get smart and do the right thing. You're here in the forum for a reason and I think it is because you realy know you are NOT doing the right thing.<P>Good Luck,<P>Flip

PLEASE, DON'T HURT YOUR WIFE...THIS IS AN AFFAIR WAITING TO HAPPEN...DON'T TRY TO JUSTIFY SPENDING ALL THIS TIME WITH OW.<P>GET OW OUT OF YOUR LIFE

Thank you to all for posting your comments. One question that was asked is when did this dissatisfaction start. It started in the early 80s. I tried to get changes back then but I didn't know how other than to voice my needs and wants. As I mentioned earlier, W was to caught up in her own life to pay any attention. I continued to stay with the relationship and was as positive as could be. I was a VERY good actor. I kept my hurts hidden away from the rest of the world. No one knew I was not happy, except W when I expressed my needs. After time, I just kept all of it inside and took care of the home life and the kids. In the early 90s (before OW) we had some troubles when I thought W was going to leave. This was when our youngest started having problems and W was not sure she could deal with it, but we stayed together and worked on daughter. Then W's physical disabilities kicked in. <BR>I have been going to counseling for a long time and have now found one with whom I feel more comfortable. He sees my dilemma and understands my issues. It is about my emotional need for activity with my partner. When W stopped that it crushed me. Yes, we are now playing cards again with friends again. But as the counselor picked up, my formative years and through high school my bonds with girls were formed through recreational activities together, and a lot of those were physical activities such as hiking, exploring, etc. My W did not join me in those activities when we were on vacations, and now she can't. I have tremendous guilt in even putting her through this, but I still question how good of a husband I will be if I am not happy. I am hoping that through counseling I will be able to analyze and gain an understanding of myself so that I can stay with W. I really do love her, but I must love myself too. Until I can do that, I cannot continue on the current path.<BR>Sexual affair? Not on your life. I have been in a few compromising situations where women came on to me strong. No one would have known. I could not do that. I would have such guilt about those actions that it would destroy me. That is unfair to all parties. If W were out of the picture would I go further with OW. At this point I don't believe so. I have too many unresolved issues that I do not want to burden OW with. Until I figure out who I am I will not enter into a serious relationship with anyone. <BR>Racquetball is a great outlet for me. I do play other sports as well. But in this climate, indoor sports are a necessity. I do play racquetball with guys too, but at 5:00 a.m. there are not too many people playing. Occasionally there are some guys in which case we play cutthroat or doubles. <BR>Thanks again for all your comments. It is good to be able to finally open up. Before I started therapy, I was a basket case inside. Once I started though the floodgates have opened. All this is helping me to get an understanding of who I am and why I am the way I am. <BR>Have a great day! <P>

Hose<BR>You really seem to have much unresolve anger about your wife's past shunning of physical activities. If she is truly sorry she didn't join you, and now can't, is it really that hard to let the anger go?<P>Also, depending on how threatened your wife feels, if you continue to do what she is threatened by, and at them same time basically let her know if she is not inimate and affectionate you may leave, you are whacking her with an emotional club and demanding that she not feel the pain, but meet your needs instead.<P>I know you feel you have dealt with pain and dissatisfaction. Many of us were emotionally shut out for years and then got the prize of being betrayed to boot. Those of us on both sides can tell you the feeling of betrayal (even without sex) is devasting. If she is feeling that, there is no way she can function normally in a relationship.<P>One more thing. It is great to explore yourself and grow, but if your counselor is singling out you and your needs seperate from the commitment, sacrifice and compromise needed in a marriage, she/he is setting your marriage up for failure. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hose A,<P>Froom a practical Harley perspective, you are heading for trouble.<P>And the easiest thing you can do to put yourself back on track is to discuss everything honestly with your wife, and both agree to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. Which means that you do nothing unless you both can reach a mutually enthusiastic agreement.<P>If your wife doesn't like you seeing the OW, then it's up to you to brainstorm solutions with her. But in the end, if you exhibit behaviors that are not in your wife's best interest, you will kill her love for you. And she'll reciprocate, and your marriage will suffer.<P>I would advise you to never talk to the OW again. You're whining about only having one racquetball club in town. Move to another town where there are 10. There are lots of very reasonable solutions to this prediciment, and you and your wife need to explore them and find the one that works for both of you.

The counselor believes very strongly that marriages are sacred. He understands that I love my W and that she loves me. But he also recognizes my issues with which I am struggling. To get this marriage back on the right track though, we must work on me. Part of that is that I have to be able to love me. Although I would not have considered myself as one with low self-esteem, I have come to realize that there is an element of that. I also need to come to grips with my codependence. I can see now that all of my past relationships as well as my marriage are codependent ones. I need to be able to love myself first so that my existence is not based on that.<BR>Thank you FHL. I really do appreciate you making the effort to stay with me on this.

K. Thanks for the comments. I have considered moving for many reasons. However, this is an isolated community (and I do mean isolated). It would mean quitting the job and I have only a couple years until retirement. I have discussed this with W and we agree that once I retire we will move to a warmer climate. There I will have a choice of clubs as well as more outside activities. As long as I am here, though, I am reluctant to give up my main stress outlet and recreational enjoyment.

Hose,<P>I'm suggesting to you if your counselor is preaching codependance, that you find a new counselor.<P>Marriage is exactly about "codependance". It's about interdependecy with someone you've committed to. The theory of codependency is only useful in marriages in which a spouse is suffering from an addiction. In that case, the marriage becomes a black hole in which the addict sucks all the life out of the relationship, and rarely gives it back. Codependency theory is used to "isolate" the other partner from those damaging behaviors, but it's done by a emotional withdrawal from the relationship.<P>It's not useful for normal marriages. In fact, it's harmful.<P>It's no wonder you're reluctant to "give this up". Affairs are addictions. And you're exhibiting the classic symptoms. How do you think your wife would feel if you told her that you were to give this up, solely because it upsets her. And then ask her for her help in brainstorming other solutions?<P>She'd feel like you loved and trusted her. And it's possible, with establishing a consistant track record of that type of thoughtful behavior, that she would also learn to meet your needs in this marriage, and that you would feel loved.<P>But the way you're going at it, you're best hope now is to maintain the status quo. Your marriage will not get better. And it may get worse.

Thanks, K. The counselor is not preaching codependence, it is something I have recognized in myself. I do not seem to be my own person but am who I am by virtue of my W. I also disagree with your comment that marriage is about codependence. Your next sentence is correct. Marriages are about interdependence. I want to work towards that. That means a commitment from both of us. <BR>I am reluctant to give up my other interrelationships because this is a consistent pattern. W has always not liked other women with whom I interact unless she has known them first. I have always been faithful and tried to include her in any activities in which I participate. I have always been open about whom I have seen or been with, even when on business trips. However, as W and I have discussed, she is a "controller" and wants to be the one to tell me what I can do. I guess I have finally reached the point where I will no longer live with that. W is in counseling too. We continue to discuss our issues. I hope that we can get to the bottom of all of them and continue to grow as a couple. However, even couples need to have room for individual growth so that can be shared and improve the marriage. <BR>

Maybe your wife does try to control...or maybe you percieve her as controlling. If she recognizes this as problem she is willing to work on, that's great.<P>But whatever controlling she has done in the past, her motivation for wanting you to give up OW is not control. She wants you to give up OW because she feels threatened. She wants you to give up raquetball because it involves OW. <P>It is great to grow individually while honoring the commitment of marriage.<P>But to grow, don't keep dragging the past behind you. If control has been a problem in the past, work through it and do not confuse the issue on the table with a continuation of past issues.<P>And from your wife's perspective if a simple request from her did not prevent your social or recreational interaction with women over the years did not work...it would be easy to at try control. I mean, with something this important (like the uneasy potential infidelity) what may look like control to you may have been a more desperate attempt to keep you from the possibility of straying. Does she try to control everything you do or every decision you make, or is it more or less confined to the oppiset sex?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13