I need some advice. I know a marriage counselor would be the place to ask these questions. We've tried that. And yet I still sit here not knowing what to do.

A little background. I've been married for 10 years. My husband and I have 5 children together. Yes, we both wanted a large family. And now, I'm not sure that was the wisest decision. Not that I regret ANY of my children. That's certainly not what this is about.

For so many years I was either pregnant or nursing. And during that time, my husband and I grew apart. He started sleeping on the sofa about 4 years ago. Every single night. Not because of the babies. Just because that's what he felt like doing. I was so busy with babies I really didn't care. But the babies started to grow up and then there weren't any babies any more. They are all kids now.

And that's when the problems really started. I wanted my marriage back. A real relashionship with my husband. Not just a kiss in passing on our way out the door and the small talk we've had for years. Last year I began really talking to my husband. Letting him know I thought we had better do something to fix this marriage or we were going to lose it. We had grown so far apart. I was so very very lonely. And I wanted him back in my life the way he should be. He didn't hear my pleas for time and commitment to our marriage. And quite frankly, at the time I don't think he cared.

Years ago my husband gave up on his physical appearance. People have told me it sounds like depression. But quite frankly, it runs in the family on his side. His brothers and father are the same way. He stopped brushing his teeth entirely. And they have begun to literally rot out of his mouth. He never showers and will wear the same dirty clothes for days on end. He has no desire to make himself physically attractive and just DOES NOT CARE. Like I said, those actions are not depression. It's how his entire family is. This is unacceptable to me. How can I feel spontaneous with someone who does not brush their teeth or shower or just SIMPLY CARE about general physical care???? I have brought this up to him thousands of times over the years and he just laughs. His mom tells me I better get used to it because that's just how the men in that family are.


I remember last summer telling him point blank that I couldn't take him sleeping on the sofa anymore. I couldn't take not having a real relashionship in my life. And that if things didn't change I couldn't say with certainty that if I was faced with someone I was attracted to and put in a not so good situation how I would react. He didn't listen then. Didn't care. Didn't take me seriously. And what do you know. 2 weeks after that conversation I was faced with just that situation. And I couldn't resist. Well I could have, but didn't have the fight in me anymore. I though my marriage was over. And I had an affair. A full blown relashionship. It only lasted 3 months. It was wonderful. I met someone with whom I had a lot in common and was physically attracted to. Well I ended up telling my husband about the affair. I think it was a wake up call for him. He didn't leave. I ended the relationship and for the first time thought there was hope for my marriage. We had hit rock bottom and the only place to go was up. And now that he knew how serious this was maybe things would change.

They haven't. It's gotten worse. We fight over EVERYTHING. Volatile crazy fights. He punches things. Will pack up all of his clothes and leave only to return a few hours later. He yells, spys on me. And all of a sudden wants sex all of the time. All the time. I feel like an object. And if I don't give in because it does not feel right with the state of our relationship the way that it is he really goes nuts. We have tried counseling to no avail. Tried talking to the priest at our Church. Nothing is helping us to reconnect and make this marriage work.

But put all of that aside for a sec. Because the bottom line is that I don't love him anymore. No "I thinks", no "I don't knows". I KNOW. When we do have sex I cry. I feel violated in some way because I am sharing myself with someone that I do not love and that I do not know. I know without a doubt I cannot find happiness in this marriage. Sure, I could stay and suck it up for the children. I could make it work somehow. But if deep down I am not really truely happy what's it for? I'm miserable. Drowning.

Yet everyone around me tells me that's not a reason to leave a marriage. I can fall in love with him again. It's not worth doing this to the children. It isn't fair to them. But I ask you, if I'm miserable how can I do a good job with them?

How can I fall back in love with someone I don't even like?

I have the opportunity to leave now. We have some money that came our way. I've been a stay at home mother for 10 years. This wouldn't be easy for me. I would have to go to work full time. My whole life would change. But to me, it would be so worth it to find peace and real happiness in my life.

The only thing stopping me is the guilt. I look at this man and wonder what would he do with his life? We live 1000 miles away from any of his family. All of my family lives 10 minutes away. He moved us into a home we cannot afford and if I left he would likely have to move out of this debt trap to afford his own living expenses plus child support for 5 children. he hasn't taken care of himself for years and his physical appearance shows. His teeth are rotted out and he has no desire to get them fixed. So who would want to date him?? Really who? And the fact of taking the daily family life from him. I feel so much guilt because how can I do that to him? I don't love him the way a wife should love her husband. But I've spent 10 years with this man. I don't want to hurt him either. But I see no choice. I can't live this way. What do I do about the guilt? Because if I stay just so I don't cause him that pain, I'm choosing to continue to live a lie and drown in this miserable marriage.

I'm lost. And I need to decide. Because the money is my way out. And it won't be around long. I've got to take it and leave now if that's what I choose. This is my chance. So why am I sitting here pondering this decision????

Not sure I understand your plan. So you want to grab the kids, the money, and leave, without informing your husband? I think that is neither fair nor probably legal. No one wants to come home one day and see their spouse and kids (and money) gone.

Now, if you mean that you have money available to make it easier for you two to divorce, that is a different story. Frankly, if everything you said in your post is accurate, it'd be hard for me to tell you that you must save this marriage.

But I would urge you to not grab the money and the kids and disappear, if that is what you had in mind.

AGG

Oh goodness no! That's not my plan AT ALL! I would never do that to my children or to him. We have recently come into some money from family. Not a lot. But enough for me to find a place to move, pay up the first few months rent and get on my feet. I wouldn't stay in this home because, like I said, we can't afford it and I fought moving in tooth and nail because I knew we couldn't afford it. I want something I can afford on my own just in case he does not pay child support one month. It won't be anything as lavish as what we are living in now. But I will be able to pay the bills. BY MYSELF.

I have spoken to him about wanting a divorce many times. But had no means to leave. Unless I wanted to live with my mother and father and pile my 5 children into their small home. Which I never thought was a good option unless he got really violent.

Of course I would tell him I was going to leave. I would hope we would be able to work out visitation without involving the courts. Although not too positive that would work since he would be LIVID if I actually left.

I want to do this the responsible way. So the children are protected. Be mature and act like the adults and parents we are.

OK, I understand, thanks for explaining.

Not all marriages can or should be saved, and it seems that you feel that yours falls into that category. Like I said, I can't disagree with that based on what you said.

AGG

Is there entitlement of that money for both you and your husband?

Would half of it sustain you enough? Is there a reason why you can't split it 50/50? That way you can bank your share into a separate account and it will be there when you are ready to divorce?

Yes entitlement to us both. I want to split it 50/50. That has been the plan all along. I needed to get some stuff for the house and the rest was supposed to be for me to buy a professional camera to pursue my interests in photography. I am going back to school in the fall.

Instead of using it for the camera and stuff for the house - I instead will use it to get my children and I settled. There will be enough leftover for some to go in a bank account. And then next month is tax return time and that's a hefty amount for us seeing we have 5 dependents. I would have to be there to sign the check when it is cashed and I would have to sign the check too. So I am figuring I am entitled to half of that as well which would be savings money. I have already spoken with a Pro Bono attorney in our area and he is willing to take on my divorce case free of charge.

So as I stated, this is the first time in our 10 years of marriage I have had access and a right to some money. And things have been getting SO bad here that I can't help but think it's all working out the way it should. For this money to come along while I am in the depths of despair is such a blessing. I don't want to spend it on anything but getting out of here. That's why I feel THIS is MY chance. When am I ever going to have a chance like this again?

This isn't an easy decision for me. Like I stated, I've devoted 10 years to being a stay at home mother and wife. I can lounge in my PJs most days all day if I want. My job is to cook, clean, do laundry and raise my children. Not a bad deal. Now my life is going to do a complete 180. I will have to work full time. My children will go to aftercare so that I can provide for them and me. I will have to go back to college and try to find a Superwoman cape somewhere! The whole thing scares the crap out of me. I have no idea what to expect and I'm sure although I know now it is going to be hard, I really have no idea how hard it will be until I live it.

BUT - the one thing I keep thinking about. As hard as it will be. As trying. As difficult. I will have to work my a*s off. But I will come home to peace. To me and my children and no more fighting. No more volatile behaviour that my children will be exposed to. And hopefully healing for all involved.

The thing I can not escape though is the guilt. But I can't be responsible for him. He's a grown man. So why can't I shake this guilt??

My experience right now is that I am both you and your husband. I feel I can offer some encouragement to you. Once I have some time to share, I will.

keep your chin up.

So, when you tell him you are leaving, and he offers to go to the counselor, read this site together, fill out the questionnaires, fix his teeth, shower every other day, let you pick out his clothes, exercise together, start doing family stuff, give you time off away from the kids, and whatever else is missing except for your passion/like for him...what will you say?

He won't do that. He hasn't done that even since the affair. Not that I'm perfect. Believe me, I know that it has taken both of us and our faults and shortcomings to get to this point. We both said last year when the affair came about that we were both going to make changes. Guess what? He hasn't. Still won't shower, still won't brush his teeth, is very volatile and it's only getting worse, he is emotionally abusive, calls me names, fights and punches things in front of our children. Will decide in the middle of a fight to pack up his belongings and leave (in front of the kids) only to return a few hours later apologizing. I'm tired. Worn out. He won't promise to do all of those things and even if he did I have little hope he would actually follow through.

I left out one thing. Because I felt it to be very private. This past weekend I caught him doing cocaine. In OUR home with my five children present and 2 friends sleeping over. I was livid and threatened to call the police. He got it out of our house. And I don't believe he is an addict. But good Lord. I'm 32 years old. I can't keep living this way. I do believe that most marital problems can be worked through. And even though I am certain I don't love him the way I should as a wife, if things were peaceful, and my children were in a stable environment I would give up my dreams of a loving stable and positive relationship for THEM. I would suck it up and stay. Even with that core thing missing. I would stay.

But how can I stay when I don't love him and then to top it all off I have all of this immature and irresponsible behaviour? We brought these children into the world. They didn't ask to be born. And they didn't ask to have fuc*ed up parents who can't get along either. My children are getting older as am I. For me, it's time to change things. give them stability without fearing of coming home because Daddy might be in a mood today and decide to call mommy a who*e and a bit*h and punch holes in the walls in front of them.

Bottom line.

I'm leaving. I came here because I still feel enormous guilt. I feel guilt because this grown man is going to crumble when I tell him I am leaving. And for that, I feel bad. No matter whose fault it is or all of the horrible things he has done (and me as well), I don't want to hurt him in that way. Because I know he is a good person. He has some changing to do. But I know how it feels to be alone and I don't wish that on anyone. I have the strength now to stand on my own. He however, does not. And I don't really understand why after all of this I feel responsible for how he is going to deal with this.

If things are as you say they are, I'll help you come and pack. I don't think anyone should tolerate the environment you describe, much less subject children to it. Perhaps you leaving him will be the "push" he needs to get some help for himself and start to grow. Your feelings of guilt are understandable, but I believe that you leaving him will be the best thing for all involved - including him, in the longterm.

AGG

Believe me, I wasn't trying to get you to stay. I just want to make sure that if he does hit bottom and come up for air, completely changed, that you know what your choice is really all about. For your sake.

If I'd found cocaine, he'd already be out on the street, locks changed. Jeez.

If you have to feel guilt, let it be that you let the situation stay like this out of your concern for him and that the kids had to see him this way. It's not your job to worry about him after you leave. He's a grown man; he's perfectly capable of turning his life around, if he wants to. He can always move back home to his mama and let her deal with what she created. And I agree with AGG; the ONLY way he can get better is if you stop enabling him. So consider this your gift to him.

Good luck.

Update........

so my husband and I had a long talk last night. Although he was not receptive to getting a divorce in any way I was actually quite pleased with the way things went. He didn't get volatile, didn't yell and simply told me he wished I would spend some more time making sure this is what I want. We went to sleep in separate rooms like usual. But I went to sleep with hope that he would handle this in a mature and responsible way.

Well I was wrong.

He didn't go to work today. He chose to call in sick and stay home. I guess he was thinking about all of it over night and decided he was pis*ed. I woke up this morning to screaming and yelling and berating me. When I told him this behaviour was exactly what had pushed me to where I was and with each word that came out of his mouth he was proving to me exactly what his character was made of. He told me if I left he would quit his job so as not to have to pay me a dime. I asked what about the children that we conceived together? There was no being rational with him. He then asked me what if he put a gun down his throat and pulled the trigger. I told him he was being very immature and irrational and to calm down. He said he was going to buy a gun and then took off in our vehicle. I havent' heard from him since 8am.

What the ****** do I do with THIS????

MB methods are not intended to work with cases of mental illness or similar issues, which your hubby appears to be dealing with. So it's hard to give advice in this case, not knowing if your hubby has thrown such stunts before.

If you think he is serious, and especially if you feel threatened, then I would alert the authorities and make sure that you and the kids are safe until your H calms down or is kept away from you.

Even if this is just a stunt, then like you said, you still have all the proof you need that you should not be with this man.

AGG

He's trying to push any button he can think of to push. I know you feel like what he does reflects on you, but honestly, does it? You're being mature, responsible, caring, and everything else a wife should be. If he chooses to try to shock you into caving, then you will NOT be helping him at any rate. He has to learn to grow up and wrestle his own demons.

I know, if he really goes through with it, here I am saying don't react. But consider this tough love. You are NOT helping him by caving; anything else he does is on his head.

Besides, don't you have to wait 2 weeks or something to buy a gun? If it turns out he applied for one, call his family, call his work, call United Way, call anyone you can think of to ask for help, and let them call him out on this; expose it like you would an affair. It is NOT all on your shoulders.

AGG brings up another good point. If you find out he applied for a gun, alert the authorities as well, so they can put a restraining order on him. This makes it cross over into criminal territory. Make sure everyone in your life knows he's getting one, and make sure they know your situation, and then make sure HE knows that THEY know.

The simple fact that he's threatening violence with a gun would make me immediately take the children and anything of great importance, then leave until things settle to where I could feel comfortable talking with him again.

Even if I have to take a bus or call a friend or relative to get out of the house.

Leave him a note. Tell him you're willing to talk (if you still are) when he's willing to get help.

That's good advice. I agree. Show a BIG consequence for even just bringing up the subject of a gun. Leave, while he's gone. You're leaving anyway. You can come back later, with some hired help (movers) to get your stuff.

Well I finally have a moment to get on here and update and yet again ask for more advice. Sigh.

He went to my mom's house. Not out to buy a gun. I figured it was just his immaturity speaking again this morning when he said that is what he was going to do. I knew it was him trying to control me. My mother and father have about had it with him. He has verbally abused my mother in the past as well. I am very very close with her and anytime I have confided in her he gets angry at HER. We used to live up in Chicago (his hometown) for 8 years of our marriage. We moved home to Louisiana (my home) 2 years ago. Our marriage has always been bad and when we lived up there when he would get angry he would call her and tell her to come and pick up her f'ing daughter. That he was kicking me out. This happened A LOT. So my mother has her own issues with him.

My parents were pretty angry this morning. They don't know how to help us. They just want this to STOP.

Jim (my husband) came back here with them begging for me to give him another chance. Not to throw away our marriage. That he will do anything.

I guess last night he slept in our bedroom. I slept in one of the kids rooms. Well he went through everything in here while I was asleep and found "my folder". I have this folder that I have been putting all of my info in. My paperwork for the apartment I applied to live in, the info for the lawyer I spoke with, important financial records etc. My "getting ready" folder. So I guess he finally understood I am not playing around. This is for REAL. Thus, the altercation this morning.

He is telling me he has nothing in this life if I leave him. He will have to kill himself. He has no other choice. He needs me. On and on and on and on.

I have it set up to go to my mother's house tonight. While there I am going to call his parents in Chicago and let them know the direness of this situation. I have tried letting them know in the past few months but they just blow me off. Don't want to hear it. But they are going to have to help their son. Because I really don't think I can.

Even with all of his threats I cannot tell him I will stay or work on this with him. I am a mess here. I feel at fault for all of this. Part of me is asking myself how can I do this to him? And then the other part is telling myself that I am not responsible for him.

My utmost priority right now is my children. And I tried to express to him this morning that it should be his as well. We've tried working on this marriage that has been he*l from the beginning for years now. I'm tired of putting the focus on that. For me, it's time to move on. Heal and take care of our kids.

Yet he has no one here. No one. But me. So what do I do? Am I being selfish? Should I give up my dreams of peace and happiness and just suck it up and stay with him in hopes that he will change? Seems I've been doing that for the past few years to no avail.

I'm lost here. And I'm going to be the one needing mental help real soon if this does not stop.

And thank you for all of the replies to my initial postings. This place is a refuge for me and I plan to be here as much as possible reading and learning as much as I can.

Peace to you all!
Kate

I would restate this as "Precisely because of all his threats I cannot stay with him".



Kate, at some point you are going to have to decide this for yourself, and take action. You have been told unanimously here that you should focus on yourself and your kids, and not feel bad for your H's issues. And that his antics only confirm that he needs help, which he won't seek till he hits rock bottom. You enabling his behavior is not going to help you, the kids, or him.

My advice would be to get the kids and move to your parents' place, if that is feasible - and then start moving forward.

I don't see your H getting better till he gets some serious professional help - it is your responsibility to protect your and your kids' sanity and safety in the meantime.

AGG

This is typical abusive behavior and manipulation. When I say abusive, I don't mean that he is a monster etc. - I mean that some people don't learn proper coping skills, and become people who use intimidation, manipulation, and guilt to keep you in line, doing what he wants you to do. Every time my H doesn't get his way, if we don't pay enough attention to him when he gets home, he says "I should have just stayed at work. No one cares if I'm home or not. And I'm just here to make money for you to spend." See the similarity?

It's all they know. People with the lowest self-esteem strive to gain the most control over the people in their lives; it's the only way they feel even halfway worthy, to have control over something.

Know it for what it is: BS. My D17 and I are at the point now where we just laugh at H when he says that, because he's so transparent.

Don't let his manipulation pull you under; you deserve more, and he deserves to hit rock bottom so he will seek help. Which - again - is NOT your problem. He's had all these years to do it, and just continues to disrespect you and your mother.

Now it's time to do the right thing for your kids. Them growing up under that is abusive, and unless you stop it, they will grow up to be either abusers or abused. Do it for them. If he wants, he can get help, spend years getting therapy, and become a better person. At which time you can consider letting him back into your life.

I do believe Amtrak runs right through Louisiana, all the way up to Illinois. Buy him an open ticket, to use when he's ready to go home. That is ALL you need to do for him.

Turn inward. Make yourself the priority.

When you do, your husband will have to heal. Maybe not now, but inevitably. And he will do it on his own. And if he doesn't, it will no longer be at your expense.