Pat - take the action then. Put her on the title tomorrow as soon as the court house opens. Give her a signed letter of intent to cover the college tuitions. Remove the barrier that keeps her chained to you against her will - and take the risk that she still may not want to stay.

She's not free to stay until she's free to leave.

Pat - I believe you have a good heart, but you have some serious walls.

It's not the lingering fallout from the affair that is causing you problems. It's the walls - to your heart. Move from the intellectual and take a risk to feel.

There is a book called "Excuse Me, Your Life Is Waiting" by Lynn Grabhorn. There's another one from my adult child of alcoholics therapy days about intimacy by Janet Woititz I would also recommend - but I don't have the copy of the book to get the exact title.

Then get a therapist who can help you take what you learn and internalize it - the biggest danger to a couple is when one learns something new, and uses it to try to change their partner. The next biggest challenge is for the one who doesn't learn, to recognize that their partner HAS changed THEMSELVES and is not trying to change their partner - but their focus on their own personal growth causes the dynamics of the relationship to change, which requires the reluctant party to change or no longer be in the life of their loved one.

Patriot - I get that you love Froz - but the disconnect between her growth and your status quo is causing you great discomfort. You can try to pull her back to who she used to be - but you wouldn't be happy destroying her (which you would have to do if she ever goes back to that dark place), and until you relax into the growth for yourself, you will be forever unhappy and unable to recognize the gift she is to you.

To me, it sounds like you are downplaying the TRAUMATIC and HORRIFIC NATURE of an AFFAIR.



But..you DID have an AFFAIR..so talking to a FEMALE at work is A MAJOR ISSUE...A TRIGGER..tearing into her soul..my H does MUCH LESS, and I feel HURT sometimes.

Do you recognize the EXTENT of THE WOUNDING that your having had an affair has done to her..and that you must continue to work on REPAYING her and helping her to heal?

Woah, you are back to spinning this as you have been a saint and Froz is just unreasonable....

Thats the whole point Pat.


Hiding email from a female coworker, no matter how onesided is affair behavior, a lie, and attempt to control your wife - to keep her from making decisions for herself.

The fact that you felt you had to hide it screams to every logical person that there was something about those emails that was a problem. Froz was already uncomfortable with this woman's flirtatious behavior at a work function.

I think it highly unlikely that this woman flirted and sent you emails about her marriage with absolutely NO ENCOURAGEMENT FROM YOU.

Dr. Harley didn't see it your way either. This whole incident is why the Harleys have stepped up support for you and Froz. They aren't concerned about Froz's reaction, they are concerned about YOUR BEHAVIOR.

And deny it all you want, you sound like a sulky child.

Exactly. I read Pat's words and feel like I am reading the nonsensical rantings of an immature teenager.

As far as I'm concerned it's not about ENTITLEMENT; it's about love and compassion. You will never understand the blow to the psyche that you have dealt, not to mention the physical and emotional turmoil that the BS is subjected to when they learn of the A AND fight for their M. Just accept that you have a lot of work to do, and set about doing it. That means absolutely and unequivocably NO MORE LIES. None. Even if you feel some engrained conflict avoidance, knee jerk, fight or flight reaction, fight against it. Being honest is not nearly as difficult as lying.

And, as for Froz, and her reaction, none of it is OVERREACTING. If she came at you with a pair of scissors, I'd have to say, even then, she's not overreacting. She's experiencing the pain that you dealt her over and over again everytime she CATCHES you in a lie. If you can't face that, then it may be best to let her go, and help her as best you can to be financially safe and sound. She's not entitled to it, but loving someone else in not about entitlement, IMO.

BR,

she never sent me emails about her marriage. Even so, I agree it was wrong to allow the situation with the emails to continue as I did. It was cruel and insulting to allow something to look bad given how I betrayed her.

I have learned from then that ensuring her access to my email without hinderance is the only right thing to do. She has that currently and she will not lose that. In fact, when I interviewed for this job, access to email from home was a question I asked. How did it work. Was it available. If I would have found that there was not access, then I would have continued looking.

I realize it is important for frozen to have full access to my email. And she does.

I really LOVE the notion of REPARATIONS that Dr. Harley speaks about...

For some of US, with a childhood history of emotional abuse, and with it again occurring in ADULTHOOD, maybe MORE than EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS are necessary.

Just like Froz, I have done my part regarding PERSONAL RECOVERY. I'm less sensitive and irrational. I can take better care of MYSELF. However, it continues to be necessary for my H to take SPECIAL, SPECIAL CARE with me. He recognizes that. Plus, he has taken BOLD STEPS to evidence his LOVE of me and his SERIOUSNESS about RECOVERY. BOLD STEPS as are being recommended to you regarding FINANCES...so when I inevitably begin to question things, not very often, but I still do..I can LOOK at those BOLD STEPS..I have CONCRETE EVIDENCE...PROOF of his COMMITTMENT.

Pat;

You tricked her into marrying you.
And you are tricking her into staying with you.

My XH tricked me into marriage too. He was in the midst of an affair prior to and immediately following our wedding.
And (of course!) he had to lie -- otherwise I may have made a different choice. I cannot express to you how much resentment I have for his dishonesty. Getting married is one of the BIGGEST life decisions we make...and I got to make mine based on a LIE.

So we started our marriage with secrets and lies. My XH had a huge intimacy barrier between us. He was afraid to get too close to me, because I might discover his secret. So he kept me at arms length for our whole marriage. I felt unimportant, disregarded, and taken for granted. Those are all the things that led me to an affair of my own.
I destroyed my integrity. And it all could have been so different....

Don't keep secrets from your wife.

That she is still willing to work on this with you is a miracle.

Pat - I feel really bad for Froz. But I feel equally bad for you. What I see in your posts is absolute terror.

This is just my random thoughts.

It seems to me that you have been going along all these years, doing things a certain way. You being you. Probably been successful. But underneath, something's missing. Not sure what it is, but you try different things to fill the void.

You might mention it to someone, but you don't really talk about it. If you talk about it, it might be discovered that your way, isn't the best way. Which is terrifying. Because if you're way isn't the best way, then you don't deserve any future success. More terrifying still, if your way isn't the best way, you don't deserve the success you had. You're a fraud, a fake.

Nope, best not to go down that path. Keep your head down, move along, and assume that success validates your approach. Besides everyone likes the presentation of who you are.

So, in your search for what is missing, you've exhausted all the obvious and acceptable distractions, so you turn to an A. Its a double dose of what you wanted, not only does it distract from what is missing, its daily validation of you and your way. Sure, you know its "wrong", but it fits with your way of doing things, and doing things your way has never let you down before.

Then D-day. And those who know of the A, now know that the presentation of who you are is exactly that. A presentation. They don't know who you are at all, but they would like to have a few words with them.

And your response to that is? No way. But saying no way, is not your way, so to speak. So the negotiations begin. How do we get the horse back in the barn? How do we get out off this mess, without facing the fear that comes with admitting your way isn't the best way?

And so, your version of recovery begins. Expertly haggling with your BW. You'll give up the A, that should be enough, case closed. Sorry, not enough. I'll post to a support forum, that really ought to be enough. Sorry, not there. I'll go to a MB weekend, really, that should be enough. Nope, not yet.

The haggling continues. What is asked of you, you claim not to possess, you claim to not be able to provide it, you claim it is not worth anything. Using the language of recovery and personailty disorders as smoke and mirrors to distract and confuse. When the big picture is brought up, you talk details. Details brought up, you need the big picture. Feelings being talked, let's look at the facts. Facts mentioned, how about my feelings. What you aren't doing, how about what I've done. Contrite and humble when opening your arguements, defiant when closing. Offend from the victim position. Its a lovely presentation. I'm sure its worked many times before. But like I said, once people know its a presentation, they want to deal with the reality.

I think you're afraid. Afraid to change because you fear that changing invalidates you. Afraid to change because you believe how you are is superior, effective. Changing that is risky. Always feels better to deal with the devil you know. I could tell you why these are irrational fears, but I've long since learned using logic doesn't do much for irrational fears.

Finally, you aren't going to negotiate your way out of it. Cause in the end, you aren't neogtiating with Froz. You're negotiating with yourself, with that something that is missing. And it isn't fooled and the price is the price.

Best of luck.

I think alot of us are saying that it is necessary for you to HUMBLE YOURSELF.

Do you believe in REPENTANCE?

How would you EVIDENCE that to your wife..NOW..TODAY..in order to be BELIEVABLE?

BELIEVABLE to HER...because of your HUMBLENESS and REPENTANCE...

BTW...in case you are interested, WORDS will not be sufficient...

Well said, Mimi. I think THIS is KEY in any successful recovery.

"I have learned from then that ensuring her access to my email without hinderance is the only right thing to do. She has that currently and she will not lose that. In fact, when I interviewed for this job, access to email from home was a question I asked. How did it work. Was it available. If I would have found that there was not access, then I would have continued looking.

I realize it is important for frozen to have full access to my email. And she does."

Well, this is deja vu. I was reading back through your posts in August where there was lots of discussions about Froz's access to your email.

Apparently it is going to take a lot more than that.

Poor frozen..........................