Okay, I think I've got how I want to word it. I'm going to send a text that says "I'm going to Tucson in May to see the cacti. Ding! has a great fare. If you're interested in coming along, give me a call." That way she knows its not dependent on her and that she'd only be going by invitation and there's no grief over not having told her about the good fare. If she wants to take time to make up her mind, missing the good fare is her problem and she can't put it back on me. Well, she can, it just won't be valid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hmm, I think it's OK except for this part: "If you're interested in coming along, give me a call." I'd take that part out.

The reason being is that she knows full well that if she wants to tag along she can call you and ask. Conversely, as written, it feels to me like you are still asking her to go with you. You should be building a distance with her, not closeness, just like she is doing with you. Did she invite you to go to LA with her this weekend?

AGG

No,she didn't invite me, and I didn't expect it, since it was a "girl's weekend." Even when we were married, it isn't the sort of weekend where she'd invite me along (or where I'd be that interested in going along). Conversely, this is the type of trip we would have liked to do together. I get what you're saying about building distance, not closeness. However, I still would like to do this with her. I think the experience would be enhanced by doing it together. And yeah, there is that part of me that is still afraid of offending her by not inviting her along and/or that it will across as rubbing it in her face. And you're right, all she has to do is ask. Its not like I'm saying "You can't go...ha! ha! ha!"

I dunno, I haven't sent anything yet. And I checked, and the fare and dates I want are still there.

Well, here's how it finished off. I spoke to Al Turtle, who gave me ways how to approach it with her. I told her about the deal and that I was going to be going and thought she'd enjoy it, too, and if she had to say "no", then that was okay. She doesn't think she can afford it, and I resisted my natural urge to say "Well, I'll buy the ticket for you" or even "Well, I'll buy the ticket now and you can pay me back later." I just said I was sorry she couldn't make it and that I was going to go anyway. She then was upset that people were "dangling" trips she couldn't afford in front of her (apparently, her business partner told her he's going to Japan again). I told her how I understood how it could come across as dangling to her, and that it wasn't my intention to dangle. I also let her know that it was an open invitation, and she was welcome to change her mind later, although she probably wouldn't be able to get as good a fare.

She did say the Tucson trip sounded like a lot of fun. She then mentioned another event to which I'm going which she also wants to attend, and again she said that money as too tight for her to afford 1/2 a hotel room. Now, for this one I told her that if I was going (I haven't made up my mind yet), then I'd have to pay for a hotel room anyway, so if she pitched in 1/2 on the gas, she was welcome to come along. She's still not sure. Now, some of you may think that making the offer was letting her manipulate me, and the truth is I would have to pay for a hotel anyway, so its not like it costs me more to have her there.

Its clear that she is not thrilled by my growing independence, and she is feeling the pinch of not having total access to me anymore. How she ultimately reacts to it is, of course, the $64,000 question.

And yes, I have booked my airfare (a whopping $90 RT with taxes), rental car and hotel for Tucson, so I'm set. I really do hope she changes her mind, I know its something she'd love, and if she doesn't, its her loss, not mine. I'll enjoy myself in any case.

EOP, you spoke with Al Turtle? How cool! I've got to start following along, if nothing else to learn from what he tells you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're right, 30 and 46. When we got married, I was 21 (a few months from 22) and pregnant, and he was 38. I really had had enough with the dating scene and was ready to start a family. I came from an unhappy family, and wanted to redo it right with someone who felt that way, too.

I've been e-mailing back and forth with Al for several days. I may do some phone counseling with him, too. His site makes huge sense to me, its a great source of strength to me now, as is Al himself. I'm still upset about the trip. Yes, I want to go for me, and even more I want us to go together. She even said it was something she would enjoy, so its not like I'd be dragging her there. The good side is there's time for her to change her mind, and there's still a good fare available (a whopping $30 more than what I paid). Heck, if she even said "Eyes, can you front me the money for the ticket and I'll pay you back $25/month", that would be fine. I just don't want to push her. Pushing drives her away.

oh no you won't front her the money!
stand strong eyes! in real life if she wants to do something like take a trip she is not going to have someone there to front her the money, she will have to be a big girl and save it up herself to go.

"i feel like all these trips are being dangled in front of me and i can't afford to go"

another classic manipulative line. just like "well then i guess i won't have insurance"
manipulation seems to come all too naturally to her. that will take years to change if she even wants to change that part of herself.

you said in an earlier post that you have low self esteem from your growing up, weight issues, etc...
do you feel like if you lose this girl you won't find anyone else? i am thinking for someone with low self esteem it must have been quite the ego boost for a late 30 something to be getting attention from a young 20 something. must have made you feel attractive and like "one of the guys".
build up that self esteem and realize you will not be alone. she is NOT the only woman in the sea. And, maybe start hitting the gym or something if your physique is bothering you.

see what i am saying?

mlhb

EOTP, it seems to me the biggest problem is your seemingly sole focus in getting your "prize" back.

No matter what you do your EX is first and foremost in your thoughts and plans. All that you do is designed to make yourself attractive to your ex. When will you try to move away from her and truly focus on what you need to do to be a complete and happy person on your own?

I get that you want her back, who wouldn't after all that's appeared on this thread. But take a HUGE step back from this and REALLY focus on you in a serious way without your ex factoring into your plans.

This is truly painful to watch.

Here's what I picture: Your ex decides going away is too difficult for her so she stays for the safety you offer her. In the future, who knows when, she again begins to feel she needs to find herself and you're in the same position you are now except you've already been divorced. Wasted time never to be gained back.

Actually, at this point I don't really believe that there is any woman I couldn't get. I just don't want most of them. I did a lot of work on myself about a decade ago to get past much of my self-esteem issue. Now, I'll fully admit that my defenses took a huge battering with the divorce (I was talking about this with my counselor last week) and they are slowly rebuilding themselves. And yeah, I'll also admit it was an ego boost when I met her. I think even the bigger boost was that I was dating several women at the time, and my XW was determined to stand out from the pack.

The problem for me is that most people bore me. I talked earlier about how the roller coaster ride is "part of the fun." And while I don't necessarily want one as extreme as the one I've been on for nine years, I sure as heck don't want boring. My sister had a terrible relationship with her first husband, they fought all the time, yelling and screaming. Way past what my XW and I ever did. They had a pretty ugly divorce and still only have a relationship because of the kids. Her 2nd husband, while a nice guy, was clearly settling for her. He doesn't really challenge her, he's a lax dad, not ambitious. I definitely don't want to end up with someone like that the 2nd time around. And, because I know I'm not ready to date anyone yet, I guess I haven't even started looking for these "interesting" women yet.

As for my weight issues, I've dropped over 75 lbs since July and am just 25 lbs from my goal weight. Its the thinnest I've been since high school or early college. I hit the gym regularly, although in a massive Catch-22, I haven't hit it as much since the divorce, even though I know that going will help me feel better. I know I'm going later today, and I want to get back to the 3-5 times per week I was going. Not for her, for me.

Nams, thanks for the reply. I'm going to mostly focus on the last paragraph. I will say that this is the absolute last thing I want to happen. I've already told her that there is no way I will ask her to stay here and not to off to school. That doesn't mean that I don't want her to stay, and that doesn't mean that there isn't a big part of her that wants to stay (why would she be afraid of me asking if she knew she was going to say 'no' anyway?). Its just that if she stays, I suspect that the scenario you're describing is exactly what happens.

So, yeah, a lot of my focus is on her right now, although its also on me. All of the reading and exercises (mental and physical) I'm doing will benefit me in the long run whether its with her or someone else. However, I've got about a 90 day window before she moves 1,000+ miles away and it becomes much harder to build a strong relationship with her. So, for these 90 days, she will be a primary focus. Once she's out of state and not in my face every day, it will be easier to focus 100% on me.

Speaking of focusing 100% on me, I think I'm taking a break for a few days from the forums. You guys have overall been great, and every time I come here I end up focusing on her more than me, and its draining me. I just want a few days to focus on me, my work, my fun, and then check up on things here. OCD isn't all its cracked up to be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> When I get into this "have to check the boards every hour" mode, it really slows me down.

I thought about a lot of things this morning, and from feedback I've gotten on this and other boards and from a friend of hers and from my XW, have decided to do things differently. I just sent my ex an e-mail telling her that I wanted to cut our contact down to a minimum. Basically, I said that I would let her control the level of contact, so she could get whatever space she needed. I won't ask her about trips that could potentially make her uncomfortable, I won't get her gifts, I won't ask her out to lunch/dinner/shopping/whatever. I told her she knows where to find me if she needs me.

I was clear that it didn't change my feelings, however I realized that working on the relationship seems to be a very low priority for her right now, and my attempts to do so were just appearing to cause a lot of stress for both of us. I also told her that I would be there to help her out if she asked for it, and again, that was up to her.

Its just too much stress on me otherwise. I hate doing this, and right now I think its the only way I can maintain my sanity. I let her know that I was open to discussing this, and I am, because I think that she'll find what I'm saying to be too extreme, and its just going to be a matter of her telling me where to set the boundaries, and not me guessing where they are and then crossing them all the time. I don’t know how this fits in to getting her back, because that’s still what I want, and oddly enough, I think it’s a step in the right direction. I think giving her the space she needs and setting the boundaries will actually make it easier to become a source of safety to her in the long run.

On an unrelated note, as time goes by, I think I HUGELY overestimated the impact of OM in Texas. As an example, I know she didn't contact him at all over the weekend when she was away, at least not by phone. She was just trying to have a nice weekend with her girlfriend and without the world intruding. In fact, I'm beginning to believe that her contact with him is on a semi-infrequent basis. I really do think that there is just too much on her plate right now for her to worry about a relationship with him or me or anyone at this point. When she asked for the divorce, she said it was so she could grow up and become independent. Her actions back this up.

So, have I given up? No, definitely not. However, I just opened my eyes and realized that my methods were not working. This requires a totally different approach.

My business partner and his wife invited me out to dinner with them and a female friend next weekend. While I'm not interested in a date (I'm nowhere near ready for that), I'm going to take them up on it. It will be nice to just be out with other people for a change and not worry about her approval.

As for the Tucson trip, if she wants to go, I'd be more than happy to have her go. And that's going to be her choice. And if she's upset that I go without her, well maybe that tells her something about herself and her feelings.

And its still tough and still sucks.

Eye, I don't mean to hit you when you're down, but talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater... "I want a divorce so I can grow up"? WTF? I really don't mean to cause you any more pain, but I agree with mlhb - your ex sounds like a world class passive aggressive manipulator.

I am sure that you will hear from her in no time, blaming you for your "new" behavior.. Let's see if she proves me wrong.

AGG

Let me clarify that. She felt that at age 30, she was trapped. She doesn't yet have her bachelors degree, her company is run by a terrible businessman (and as he's the majority owner, he makes all the rules), and I am becoming successful and she felt that all she would every be is a shadow of mine. Plus, she sees friends of hers becoming successful and starting families, and I believe that since she believed I would never change, didn't see a way to achieve happiness within the marriage. She's looking to become independent and self-reliant. And, to her credit, she took on the divorce, she's taken on negotiating a way out of her business, she's taken on applying to college and getting ready for a move to another state and really is working on getting her internal house in order. My pressure, real or perceived, to work on the relationship and keep my feelings fresh in her mind were quite possibly hurting her progress and mine.

And yes, I expect her to come to me saying that she doesn't want to cut off contact that much and that she still wants me to be in her life. The difference is I'm going to let her set those boundaries (assuming that they are acceptable to me, too) instead of just guessing where they should be. As for "blaming" me, I don't know how that will come down. We'll see.

Oh...ironically, she often has accused me of being passive aggressive (and I am...thanks, Mom!). Interestingly, she hasn't said this recently, as its pretty much dropped out of my repertoire. However, she is very passive aggressive and does not recognize it within herself. Since the only times I ever brought up the issue were in anger, I don't think that helped her in recognizing it, either. Its not a good trait of hers, and its one that, if she doesn't recognize it and do something about it, as I'm doing for myself, would likely preclude a future relationship and is also likely to sabotage any of her future relationships.

Also, when I talk about a future relationship with her, if it is serious, you can bet your sweet butt that there will be couples counseling involved from the beginning. I have no intention of going through this drama again.

Well, she called and was upset by the e-mail, telling her it wasn't what she wanted and that it was adding to her stress level, not reducing it. We're going to discuss it later. What I'm attempting to do is get her to define her boundaries. If she says "I want to have dinner once or twice a week", then I won't bug her three times a week. If she says "I want to talk to you every day, but not for more than 15 minutes", then I won't stick around for 1/2 hour.

AGG - She did not blame me for anything, just said I wasn't understanding (hmm...maybe that is blaming). I really felt like saying "DUH! Of course I'm not understanding, because you're not giving me the direction I need! If I knew how to do this, we wouldn't be where we are!" So, we'll see how the talk goes. Right now I feel like I'm going onto a basketball court and finding out that they put the ice down for hockey. If I know that its going to hockey night, then I can wear skates and pads.

Hmm, maybe. But I find it unsettling to see someone take the route of divorce when they feel unhappy, but maybe that's just me. I would be VERY hesitant to consider a future with someone who has demonstrated that that is how they approach marriage (get out when the going gets tough) - my ex was like that, I don't need that crap again. I'm not a masochist <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.


Yeah, but I still don't like it that you are letting her call all the shots. That is exactly where she wants you, and I think you are missing the mark by letting her do that. Just because she says she wants more contact, doesn't mean that you need to tailor it to what she wants. Why not do what YOU want?

AGG

agg i could not agree more.
i read that last post of eyes and see still that it is all about HER. what SHE wants, HER boundaries, etc.
what SHE wants is eyes at her beck and call and yet to live her own life. do what she wants to do and yet expect eyes to drop everything and be at her beck and call when needed and then pout and manipulate when she is not.

eyes, don't you see that?

at this point, i almost can't wait for this girl to move away to college so you can move on with your life!

once you start getting out and doing things for yourself and put her at the farthest part of your mind, you will see how good life can be.

from our vantage point, she is still got you pretty much where she wants you. i do see you making SOME baby steps but she is still controlling this ship right now.

if she TRULY loved you, she would not have gotten a divorce from you. she would have acted like a grown up and worked through any issues the two of you had, TOGETHER. she chose to take the easy way out.

mlhb

i think when she goes away to college, you will need to go to a plan B of sorts (not sure you can plan B when you are already divorced but....)

give her a letter laying out what you expect from her in order for a future together, and except no contact from her until she does. trust me, no contact is being kind to yourself. it makes it MUCH easier to move on and stop focusing on her.
I finally went no contact with exbf a while back and i will tell you, it is a blessing. i hardly think about him at all anymore, i can move on with my life, and i don't hurt anymore. continued contact, even in just a brief phone call, kept me in that picture and that was not healthy or good for me at all. nor is it for you.

mlhb

First of all, it is about her boundaries, because she is having the problems setting boundaries, not me. Her boundaries are much more important, because she is an avoider and I am a clinger. My boundaries are a very different type. Its not that I don't have boundaries, its that mine are much harder to reach. If it was an apartment building, her boundaries are somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd floor, mine are on the 15th. No, she doesn't want me at her beck and call, in fact that is part of the problem that I am making myself too available to her and its still overwhelming her. This was part of the problem in the marriage in the first place.

As for her TRULY loving me, please consider the possibility that maybe she didn't know how to work through problems. Maybe consider that she didn't know how to act like a grown up. Maybe consider the fact that her whole life has been about relationships falling apart and it was all she knows.

That aside, when she came in to sign the modification to the divorce agreement, we had a long talk of about an hour. It was incredibly frustrating and also productive. She went back to some of her "I'll just leave now" tricks and "If you don't want to have contact, then you'll just never hear from me again. Ask XH" (her 1st XH). I attempted to get her to be clear on what things were good to do and what things weren't good to do with limited success. We also got into some issues on some furniture she thought she was taking that was not included in the agreement and that she might want to take one of the cats. Of the five cats, she this is the one she would absolutely not take (its the one who always slept with us and now sleeps with me). My basic issue is that I don't know if I'm going to be able to be a good parent to five cats and a dog. If I can't be one, then I want to get them to a place where they can get good homes (they would absolutely go to a no-kill shelter). I'm not saying I am going to give them away, just that if I can't give them the love they need, then they will. I said I might give one of them to our housemate when he moves out, because he really loves her. She said she had already told him he could have the cat and I told her that it wasn't her cat and so it wasn't her decision.

She finally got real and honest on some more things. She tells me that giving her gifts that give her more stuff that she may or may not be able to move aren't very helpful to her. She would rather me spend that money on something practical and consumable, like groceries or dinner or something. Okay, that's fair enough. If I was planning to get her a $20 gift, then fine, I'll get her $20 of groceries. It doesn't mean I'll get her $40 of groceries, though. She also told me how much it was going to cost her to do the move to Texas, and its a heck of a lot more expensive than I had thought (its been a long time since I moved long distance). Well, okay, so now I understand why she is trying to save every penny. If she had opened up by saying "You know, eyes, its not that I don't think that Tucson would be fun, its just that I need to make sure I have $XXX available for this move, and its just not practical now", then I could have looked at the entire conversation in an entirely different manner. It was very much a "wow" moment for me. And, unfortunately, it took 1/2 hour of angst to get to it.

I also realized how close she is to the breaking point again. She is trying to do too much, too fast, and putting too much pressure on herself. And extra pressure from me isn't helping. The funny part is, at the end of the conversation, my opinion didn't change much. I'm still going to back off and give her space and not intrude on her life. Its just not worth the stress anymore. And yes, this put an end to my thoughts of a reconciliation anytime in the near future. She doesn't want it, and frankly I don't want it any more. I'm not saying I'm not open to it in the future, and right now I think she is way too unstable for anything like that. In fact, I kind of pity this guy in Texas if she does end up hooking up with him. Because until she learns to deal with some things, she will keep repeating her same patterns. She will get rid of some stress here and then will just find brand new stress in Texas. And she will drive him nuts like she's been driving me nuts.

Don't get me wrong. I still love her and want her to be happy and think that at her core she is an amazing woman, and as I've said, she is covered in a lot of baggage and right now she's not interested in getting rid of the baggage. She's just interest in replacing the old baggage with new baggage. She needs a friend now, and I can be a friend to her. And that's it. Its time to work on me and my issues and stop trying to force a future with her on her and on myself. She will always have a very special place in my heart, and I will always love her and maybe one day she will have a very special place in my life, and that place is in the hazy distant future, if it even exists at all.

I don't know about a Plan B when she goes. I'll think about that when she goes. Right now I'm dealing with March 3, 2009, not May 15, 2008.

Let me clarify that last line. At this point I am no longer planning on a future together. I really need to see some evidence from her that she is working on fixing her psyche before I'd even consider it at this point. So, Plan B may be pointless. I believe I'd rather stay in touch from a distance so I can see what she's doing with her life, and then make a decision at that point if she is someone with whom I'd like to have a relationship. If she is doing that work, then its probable I'd want that. If she's not, then let someone else deal with her craziness. I'll still always be there for her in a pinch, and not on a day to day, minute by minute basis.