I'll try to do the quick summary here. My wife and I just got divorced, despite the fact that we remain very good friends. She was just feeling very trapped in the marriage and in other ways in life. I'm her 2nd husband, and she's been married or in a serious relationship since she was 18, and she just turned 30 and I think realized that she didn't know herself except as a part of someone else. I get all of that, and that's why, painful as this is, I realize that this is the best thing for us now. This certainly isn't the only issue between us, as we both have had some behaviors that have brought this about, too. One of the key ones is that she has some serious growing up to do. From my standpoint, I need to be more trusting and caring, and act from emotion instead of logic more of the time. And when I say "I need", I mean it as "this will make me a better person", not that I'm a bad one now. However, lets just say that my behaviors and some frustrations were definitely part of pushing us apart.

And, as I said, we remain good friends, and I get the impression that she's beginning to rethink the decision. She hasn't said that, its just what I get from some of her behaviors. For my part, I still love her, and would be happy to get back to where we are. I am very committed to doing a lot of work on myself (heck, that's why I'm here). The thing is, I believe we need to take a few, or maybe a lot, of steps backwards. We could get back together tomorrow and it wouldn't solve the underlying issues. I'm just not sure how to go about this. This is all new ground to me, so I'm asking for suggestions/support. Should we not even consider it for several months, should we just start with a few casual dates and see where it goes? Should we see other people so we can see if we really were the right person for one another?

There's one big twist to this. She and I still share the house, even though she gave us rights to it in the divorce. Heck, we are still sharing the master bedroom. We aren't having sex (not that this is new, it was one of the issues that led to a lot of my frustrations) and from an economic standpoint, its cheaper than me paying for an apartment for her, which is what I have to do under the divorce agreement. I don't think we can do this indefinitely, whether we are getting back together or not. I think it will stunt our development. I'm not sure how to really push her out, though, as she's emotionally very fragile right now, and I don't want to trigger any really negative reactions (my ex is very depressed and has had a suicide attempt in the past).

So, its a complicated situation. I know that if she ever deals with her issues, she is an amazing woman, and I still love her. I am committed to dealing with my issues, not just because she's worth it to me (she is), because I think they will make me a better man. I plan to get counseling for myself, and before she and I make any moves to getting back together, I think we should have couples counseling. I think she needs individual counseling, however she's resistant to it.

Okay, enough rambling. As I said, any suggestions on how to proceed will be greatly appreciated. And I may just be reading into her reactions because its what its what I want to have happen, and my gut tells me we still have a chance at a happy future.

I wish you the best of luck and my prays. If you have not studied Plan A and B that is where I would start. Living together Plan A. Move her out Plan B. Hopefully, somebody has an opinion on Plan B living together. I think you have some risk moving her out. The 18 - 30 in a steady relationship of some kind. Opportunity for her to fill the void again with someone else. That sounds like the pattern.

Counseling for you would be a good start. Her better. Might try the monkey see - monkey do apporach. Gently, use it as setting an example. With her depression she needs to see a doctor soon and consider anti-depresents.

Your age, and any children?

This is all IMO. Still not sure how this is working for me. But I wake up everyday trying.

I'm not familiar with Plan A and Plan B. Where do I get info on this.

She is very against taking anti-depressants. She feels (from prior experience with them) that they kill her creativity and that is an important part of her. Even without them, I think therapy would help her. She says "I have my friends there for me", and even her friends have told her that she needs more help. They just aren't trained professionals.

As for her moving out, we've both expressed that it may be best for us to see other people just to see if there is a better fit for us out there. It may be that we are fated to be just good friends, however my gut tells me otherwise. And, as tough as it would be, if she was ultimately going to be happier with someone else, wouldn't I be kind of a jerk for holding her back from that?

No kids, I'm 46. And no, I wasn't the guy around at 18. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We met a couple years later, and she was the one pursuing me, because I frankly didn't think a 21 year old would be interested in me.

She almost surely pursued you because she wanted a father figure to marry. Many troubled girls do that, for a wide range of reasons. You are wise to see that she needs to be on her own and to grow up. I have never been on my own, went from father to big brother raising me to fiance to husband, always letting the man tell me how to think, dress, act, etc. When I was 31, I went on a business trip and was truly on my own for the first time in my life! I sat down on the hotel bed, and simply couldn't move, because I had never ever had to think for myself or at least not without considering how it affected other people. I finally got up and went to the restaurant, but I was terrified!

Best advice? Try being friends. See her as her friends would see her. Only talk about friend stuff. Look up information about counseling, and give it to her. Tell her you are going just to have someone to talk to who is trained to figure out how to make you happier. And she could too.

Move out of the same bedroom. She will never detach if you don't.

And please don't start dating other people, not for a long while, at least 6 months. Especially her. If she sees you doing it, she'll want to do it too, so please consider being a good role model for her. She desperately needs to learn to like herself as her own person, having nothing to do with whether another person likes her. Number one priority for her, IMO. And that means no dating. See if you can facilitate that.

If you start reading all the articles here, like on the links to the right, you'll find out about plan A and B, and all the other stuff.

Thanks for the information. I realize that I am in no shape to be dating anyone right now. Frankly, I'm too attached to her. We are definitely still friends, its just hard to detach the friendship from the marriage side of things. At my heart I realize the bedroom thing has to change, because its keeping us from being independent of each other. And I don't want to give up my nice bed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I mean, I don't want to reward her/punish myself for her deciding we had to split. I suspect that sooner or later I'll just have to draw the line and tell her she has to move down to the spare room (there is a bed there, its not like I'd make her sleep on the couch or floor).

I don't know that she wanted a father figure so much as she wanted someone to care. Her life is run by an immense fear of abandonment. To a great extent, being on her own terrifies her. I realize I can help her with that as a friend, and she really does need counseling.

I guess the one thing that bugs me is whether its even realistic to think about us rebuilding our relationship. I can get by with no dating and just being friends for a while. And, as I'm sure you can tell, I'd be very interested in us becoming a couple again (assuming she starts to get her life in order). So, what's the time frame on starting that? Six months? A year? Or just a "Joshua, you big dummy, you'll know if/when the time is right?"

If this has been going on since she was 18 or 20, and she has a fear of abandonment, yeah, she wanted a father figure. Which may be different from what you're thinking. I recommend doing some reading. There are tons of books out there on girls with problems, and how they look for a support structure (the father figure). Did she have a bad father situation? Left, abused, abandoned, missing during her teen years?

Anyway, that's her issue, not yours. You may have to start nudging her out the door, give her more and more responsibility for her own stuff, pull away. Definitely move her to the other room, for starters.

You might consider setting a timeframe on her moving out, give her a goal to work toward, of maybe 6 months. In the meantime, you can start working on the MB principles, to become more attractive to her. But don't take her back if she's not improving herself, cos she'll just repeat it all later, or else show different, more destructive traits like having an affair or starting an addiction.

Her parents split early, I'm not sure what age. She stayed with her mom. She has told me her dad was a brilliant man, until he got into drugs, which ultimately killed him young (he died back in 2000 or 2001). So, yeah, I can see the need for the father figure, and for stability. She was in foster homes for several years in her teens. Her first marriage lasted about year. So, these issues are huge. I have asked her about abuse in the past, she has strongly denied that there was ever any abuse.

I will begin work on moving her out, and I 100% agree that if she is not willing to do work on herself, then its pointless to even consider any sort of relationship, because we'll just find ourselves back where we started. I will read up on the MB principles, maybe invest in a book or two. I also realize that working some of these principles will make me more attractive in general, so if there is no future with her, it will improve my chances with others. I think that fact that she has seen that I am serious about working on my character issues is why she's beginning to rethink her actions. I love her enough to wait for her to get her act together, and if she's not going to do that, then I realize I can only love her as a friend.

Dr. Harley wrote a book called "Surviving an affair". The affair part doesn't appear to be your problem. But the techniques related to communicating with Plan A & B may be useful. I just pulled it off my shelf. I have read over dozen books from the leading experts in christian marriage principles and dealing with affairs over the last two years. Many of them several times. I may get in trouble for this. My top three relationship books (the ones I give my friends before they get married).

Dr. Harley's "His need, Her needs" (My ex got this one the divorce it appears - not on my shelf)
Gary Chapman "The Five Love Languages" (pulled this one off the shelf this afternoon to reread for I think the 4th or 5th time).
Dr. Emerson Eggerichs "Love & Respect".

Dating is a scary proposition if you are trying to win your ex's heart back. I am dealing with the same issue.

My ex has been off and on antidepressents and I took them once. Your ex is right, it makes you more neutral. No highs, but no lows. If no go on the antidepressents. She needs counseling. Good luck there. I spent two years trying to get my ex into counseling, against her will. We are talking about it now. Each of us going to individual counseling. Go back to my orginal post that is still my advice monkey see - monkey do apporach.

Use the Love Bank and communicate in her top 2 love languages and see where it gets you. Time frame I don't know. Build on what works and dump what doesn't. Remember, that if it doen't work today, you may need to come back to it later and try again. Especially, if it something that should have worked. Something internally or externally may have blocked it working the first time.

Let me say this about the possibility of an affair. Back in 2004, she had a one-night stand with an old boyfriend. She was actually ready to leave me for him, and the day after he basically told her "Oh, I don't know why I did that, I'm actually really involved with someone else." This was an out of town thing and when she came home (in tears), I didn't get it. We got back to the house and she took a bunch of pills and confessed. She said she really expected me to let her lay there and die, which broke my heart and also showed me how much she was hurting. Obviously I didn't let that happen, I rushed her to the emergency room, and stayed with her until she was discharged. People thought I was nuts for taking her back after this, and from my stand point, I knew it was something she did because of how bad she was hurting and how depressed she was, and that I was a contributing factor to it. How do you kick someone out who just tried to kill herself? Isn't that just inviting her to finish the job? It was at this point where she had some counseling and was on the anti-depressants. While I did a lot to be more attentive and caring, the fact that she would not look for work and that we still had intimacy and trust issues eventually led to a lot of resentment on this point, and to her withdrawing from me, which of course led to further resentment and frustration, which brought us where we are now.

As for an affair now, there is a guy in another state with whom she has grown friendly. I have always thought he was interested in her, she has always said he's a friend. Now, I have met this guy, and in person he's always been very nice to me, and given me no indication of anything going on. I realize that may just make me a sucker, and I realize that I have to either trust her or not. After all the damage from the 1st affair, trust has been difficult, so I take her at her word here. That being said, when checking a phone bill a few weeks ago (I was wondering why it was so high, not spying), I noticed that just before she asked for the divorce, there were literally over 300 text messages back and forth between them. I confronted her about this (probably a bad move, and nothing I can do about that now) and again she insisted they were just friends, and that he was at least there for her these days and cared about her emotionally. I also know that when she cries (which can be a lot), its easier for her to send text messages than actually talk to someone, and given her abandonment issues, the decision to ask for the divorce must have been a killer. Also, the fact that she consider herself "damaged" and that "no man will want her" and that she "hates sex" (all her words, not mind) make her feel unworthy of a relationship now. If there is an affair, I think it is emotional only. Which, I realize can be just as bad. And, I also realize that if its happened, its happened. There's nothing I can do about the past, only improve the future. If she has feelings for this guy, then I can't tell her not to have feelings. I can only put myself into a position where her feelings for me are stronger.

There's a part 2 to this guy, too. After she asked me for the divorce, the 300 text messages pretty much petered off. They still text back and forth a couple of times a week, and talk on the phone occasionally. She actually went out to see him and some friends last weekend, because he's working on helping her get into a school in his state. Does that hurt? Yeah, because despite her protestations, I don't know what's going on with them and have been burnt once before. However, given that we're divorced, its not like I can tell her not to do this. And, again, my gut does say there is nothing going on past friendship...at this point.

In the past week, she's done some things that indicate she sees I'm sincere about making changes. She has an online journal, and she recently posted along the lines of "I've realized that maybe my life doesn't need a 180 degree change, maybe just 145 or 160 degrees." Now, a big part of that is her work dissatisfaction (which is also a HUGE part of her depression at this point) and I can read anything else I want into the statement. She is currently in Mexico for work, and I took her to the airport the other day, and before I left she gave me this huge hug. I only point it out because when I would normally take her, there would be a brief embrace and a brief peck, and that was it (she's not big on PDAs). It struck me as odd, and it was all I could do not to tell her I loved her as I left. I didn't say that because I know it makes her uncomfortable at this point, and she knows I love her, and I realize that at this point, actions are more important than words anyway. She called me the next day from Mexico, saying 'I really need a lifeline right now.' She has been sending me text messages frequently throughout the weekend. And, yes, I checked (our phones are still on a joint account), and while she has sent a couple to the other guy, I win by a long shot in quantity. She has also sent to other friends, and she has always had male as well as female friends, so while it riles me to see her sending anything to him, its something I have to accept. I have been very supportive in my replies, definitely attempting to satisfy her emotional needs with them, even asking female friends the appropriate response. Hey, I recognize I wasn't good at the emotional response a lot, so I'm not afraid to ask for help.

So, these are little things. I could be reading way too much into them (one of my faults is that I over analyze things) and I choose to interpret them as progress. I just read the "Rocks in a River" analogy that someone posted in another thread, and all I can do is keep tossing in those rocks and see what happens. I'm also aware that this is not going to be an overnight change, and that it took time to break down the relationship, its going to take time to build it back up.

I am going to start reading a lot of the site today, do the questionnaires, too. I don't know how to approach her about the questionnaires, because we are divorced now, and I don't know if its appropriate, and I don't want her to feel like I'm putting pressure on her to restart the relationship. While even from the beginning she has said that she is open to the possibility of there being something for us down the road, she repeatedly says "Don't put that pressure on me", meaning "Don't make me your only possible target, that's not fair to either of us." I get that, and frankly that's why I talked about dating other people and thinking that she should, too. If there really is that strong a bond between us, we would see that others aren't appropriate for us. However, that conflicts with some other advice I was given here, so I'm not so sure any more.

I know I'm writing a lot, and its because I'm in totally unknown territory here, and have no idea how to proceed. What I do know is that I still love her, that I'm obviously still in love with her, and that she still loves me (although I'd be harder pressed to say that she's still in love with me) and that when we work well together, we work exceptionally well, and that, in my mind, at least, if we both do this work on ourselves, we can get back to where we were. Maybe I'm deluding myself, and I'm not ready to say that yet.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

Work on being friends. She needs to feel that you're at the same level as her. With the age difference, she probably defers to you a bit, whether she even knows she's doing it. Get down to her level and let her start being O&H with you about everything in her life. Talk, talk, talk. Or text, text, text. Become her friend.

As for the other guy, sure there could be something going on, but I'll tell you a secret about women. Some of us are all 'girl' and wouldn't tell a secret to a man to save our lives. Others of us don't trust females, and are far more comfortable being friends with males. I was like that, and my D17's three best friends are all male. They text all the time. It's comfortable. And they don't stab you in the back, like females do.

That's why I suggest becoming a better friend, which she's clearly comfortable with.

Now, given her background, I would find every way I could think of to convince her how much happier she'd be going into real, serious therapy. She's got way too much baggage to be able to deal with it all on her own. Find magazine or research articles - short and easy to read, not so much 'work' as a book - that discuss how what she's been through directly affect today's actions and her potential for happiness. Give her the articles, occasionally, "I thought of you when I read this" or "I thought this might make sense to you."

In that same vein, tell her you'd like to fill out the questionnaires together, just for kicks, and to see from a clinical perspective, what went wrong with the R. So that the next one won't. That way, you're not saying you're doing it to get her back, but because you want to improve yourself, and you can't do that without the help from learning more about her and what she wanted in the M. It might also make you look more attractive to her.

Let me add a couple of things to the already long post. As for the OM, she has said "If he asked me out, I would probably say 'yes'", which also lends some credence to her statement that nothing is going on except an emotional affair at this point. Is it even correct to call it an affair? I dunno.

Anyway, while reading one of Dr. Harley's responses, I read something that gave me a degree of comfort.


I realize that she's only really seen this guy when she's in a very isolated mode, and when she's in a mode of comparing him to me. He's been a bit of the 'white knight' to her, I'm sure. I've always believed that she would eventually find out he's just as flawed as the rest of us, and the statement above reinforces that. Also, short of her flying out to see him on a regular basis, I am fairly certain that she wouldn't be moving to his state before the summer at the earliest, as she's already enrolled in spring classes here and the semester has started, and finishing her school is a big priority to her. If nothing else, it gives me "home field advantage" for several months while I work on myself.

Catperson - You were posting your response, I was posting my update. Thanks for the feedback. The idea about doing the questionnaires "just for fun" is interesting. I don't want to hit her with it right after she gets back from Mexico, and soon would be a good idea. She'll look at it suspiciously, and maybe won't do hers, and maybe the fact that I'll do mine anyway will again show her I'm serious about making changes. I was reading the section on Withdrawal, and I realize that this isn't going to be easy. And I'd be happy to get back to Conflict. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're right about her deferring to me. One of the big things prompting this is that she doesn't feel like she has an identity of her own, she's just defined by/a shadow of me, despite her personal successes. That's another reason I don't want to rush into restarting anything, because that would hold her back from her self-realization. I've said to several people that most of the Fergie song "Big Girls Don't Cry" pretty much describes her life (the first verse, not so much).

On a mostly unrelated note, your nickname makes me chuckle. I am definitely a dog person, yet when she moved in with me, she brought 2 cats (one we eventually had to get rid of, he didn't socialize well with the others) and somehow we're up to 5 now! Well, technically, I'm up to 5. She thinks that with concentrating on school she wouldn't be able to take care of them, and had suggesting giving them away, knowing that I am not a big cat person. But they are our/my babies, and I wouldn't just give them away, so they will always have a happy home here (certain days I might change that answer, but most of the time they are good).

Wow, I thought I was bad with 3 cats! I'll never have this many again. But I know how it is. My SIL was a thorough dog person, and now she has 4 or 5 cats. We'll take over the world, I say!

About the questionnaires. I recommend asking her to do them with you - as friends. Not as potential lovers. Tell her that you want to learn more about what went wrong, because if you ever (make sure you don't say 'when') get in another relationship, you don't want to cause any problems. That way, you look good for wanting to improve yourself, you aren't telling her that you're coming after her, and you aren't telling her you're looking for anyone else though. Plus it may make her feel good to get to help YOU for a change, instead of you being the older, more mature, more established, smarter one.

This is what I mean by father figure. She's not consciously thinking of you as her dad; just subconsciously mistrusting her own ability to have a healthy life of her own, therefore, she needs a grounded adult to keep telling her what to do. So now that she's older, she naturally has to start chafing at this. It's just what people do.

I think she would appreciate you immensely if you can help her investigate all this, with articles and stuff, so that she can understand that psychologically speaking, she's following all the pre-determined steps that experts say she would follow, given her background.

For instance, my dad left when I was 12. All the books will tell you that a girl in my situation will start becoming promiscuous, in an attempt to gain approval from a male - any male - to make up for not having my father tell me he's proud of me, and to make for him not showing me how happy healthy men/fathers behave. Because of that, I searched out males who treat me badly, just as my father did. Now, I didn't know any of that at the time, but just as though someone had given me a script, I went through all the motions. The only reason I didn't go into drugs as well is that I couldn't afford them!

What I'm saying is, all the decades of psychological research have come up with expected reactions to bad things in childhood. There are many red flags in your ex's past. And the research can show her that who she has become was preprogrammed, so to speak, because of those flags. So there's no reason for her to hate herself or not trust herself - she really didn't have a choice! BUT that doesn't mean she can't improve herself. Just as all the research predicted how she would turn out (father figure, wanting to spread her wings, etc.), it also has solutions for it all. THAT is what I wish you could get across to her somehow. And if you can do that as her friend, interested in her whether she comes back to you or not, it makes you the most likely person she will gravitate toward when she finally does get it all worked out.

I think Cat is right on. Think about what girls want from their fathers.

Unconditional love -- be loving(in a friendly way) with no expectation in return. it will build your character even if it does nothing else.

Approval -- find the good in whatever she does...build her up...if she does poorly at something...still focus on her effort and tell her we all make mistakes but you have faith in her and know that she will eventually get it right. Let her know when you are proud of her accomplishments.

Security -- esp imp re the living situation; set some boundaries, but reassure her. The separate room is good I think. You both need space to be able to hear yourselves think. Just have an honest conversation with her tell her you think its best for both of you. Tell her you want her to feel secure and you are not going to do anything to hurt her that way. I.E. that you will help her be secure(re having a roof over her head etc).

Acceptance--accept her as she is and let her know that you do. Remind yourself of all the reasons you fell in love with her and find ways to show/tell her you admire these things about her in a non-romantic way.

You cannot be her father. You can provide her the stability of a father that she never had until she learns to give herself that stability. Think about the push/pull of a parent/child relationship. The child from the minute they can walk wants to run out into the world and separate from the parent to become who they are. But they also want to know that if they get scared or if it gets to hard they can run back to the safety of Mom/Dad and rest, get comfort, reassurance, and finally encouragement to run back out again.

Be aware, that anyone with abandonment issues believes that the people they love and trust will abandon them. If that doesnt happen and they have not resolved the issue within themselves they will "make" you abandon them to prove themselves right. When she does things to push you away recognize that for what it is and refuse to be pushed. If you stop dancing to her music, she will eventually change her tune.

She needs therapy. But, I agree for now get your own. If you are comfortable, tell her casually as a friend what comes up in yours. Ex: My therapist said blah blah. What do you think?

Antidepressants are a godsend for many but they arent the only way. I recommend a book called "Feeling Good" author Goodwin I think. About Cognitive Therapy and how our thoughts keep us depressed. Read it and leave it laying around for her unless you think she would read it if you suggest it.

Things that help depression....activity(give her reasons to get up and moving); humor/laughter....funny movies, light conversation, whatever makes her smile. thinking positive...whenever she is negative shes probably dwelling on some irrational feeling/belief....acknowledge her feeling but gently point out the rational...dont argue it, just point it out. Sunshine....get her outdoors. Healthy diet...set the example. No alchohol...dont encourage it by drinking around her. Lots of other stuff Im sure you can find in any book on depression.

Good luck. Work on yourself, be loving to her, and things will start to fall into place. If you change/grow, she will have no choice but to change how she deals with you. Just be aware that she may initially be frustrated and angry that you arent staying the same and push your buttons to try to make you revert back to the you she is comfortable with.

You had a lot of good things to say, and this was very on point. To some extent, she's been been pushing me away since shortly after we became serious. However, I've always recognized it for what it was and wasn't going to let her programs have their way with her. I'm sure at some level that seriously messed with her subconscious (i.e., "He's supposed to leave, but he doesn't'). That's why I'm actually impressed that she got up the courage/ability to actually pull the trigger (I suspect OM was her key support system during it). I came close several times, and had to remind myself of what I was fighting and back down. That being said, my frustration did get the better of me on more than a couple occasions, and I did and said things that helped push her away. In no way to I attribute our situation 100% to her. As I've said, this time will be good for me to work on myself, too.


Oddly enough, this work thing in Mexico is (hopefully) going to be very good for her. Her messages to me and her online posts indicate she's having a great time. She's seen as a celebrity there (in her field), has people showing her admiration and respect, is out at parties, has been taken on tours, and just seems to be in touch with the amazing person with whom I fell in love 9 years ago. It actually almost brings me to tears to read some of her posts, just to know that that person is still inside her, and just needs to right environment to come out for good. The downside is she has to fly back with her business partner, who is by far the most toxic person in her life. When she gets back, I am going to work with her to help get her out of the business (we've already discussed this). That could be a downer. So, when I meet her at the airport, its going to be all smiles and tell me about the great times you had.

We have a housemate (he's gay, what more could I ask?..no threat there...lol) who kind of questioned why I bought her some flowers recently with everything that's going on. Well, my business partner pointed out to me "Whether she gives you a hug or a kiss or just a smile, isn't it worth the ten bucks?" I think this is very true, and before I pick her up at the airport I'm going to make sure there is a fresh bouquet here for when she gets home.

Any suggestions on Valentine's Day? Obviously nothing romantic, and I was thinking of just getting her a card (not a particularly romantic one). She's actually going to be out of town for another convention on V-Day. I'm not sure if she leaves on the 13th or 14th. I was thinking of just slipping the card into her luggage. Good move or bad?

I'll be honest...this whole thing terrifies me. The worst thing I think would be to try and fail at this. What terrifies me most, though, is losing her out of my life forever. She insists that will never happen ("unless you push me away") and if we move on to other people, no matter how close we are, it will never be the same. I know I just have to push through my fear to make this happen, and I've done that in the past, although support never hurts. I am truly grateful for the feedback I am getting here.

I bought "His Needs, Her Needs" a few minutes ago. It was actually the only one of Dr. Harley's books that the Barnes & Noble had in stock. I'll start reading it later today.

For whatever reason, this afternoon the OM has been on my mind/bugging me a lot. Probably because I was writing so much about it. How do I keep that from bugging me. Like I said, I know she's a free agent now, and more likely than not, its an EA if anything, and just knowing that she ran to someone else is eating me up. I'm doing my best to focus on not worrying about the past, and just concentrating on making a better future, and its tougher than I could ever imagine.

Would it help to disassociate yourself from the equation? To look at it not as about you, but about her? It's not that she's rejecting you, just that she wants to be selfish about herself for now. Sometimes people go through periods they will later be ashamed of, like falling off the wagon.

Yeah, I think that by letting my OCD get in the way, and worrying about how much she talks to him or texts him vs. how much she talks/texts me is only going to lead to madness. I can only control my end of the equation. And if this guy is being a friend to her now, why should I look at that as a bad thing? Doesn't she need friends now, more than ever. I just need to be the best friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm very depressed about things today (calling a counselor today is a top priority for me. This is really affecting my productivity, my sleep, my energy levels, everything). I got an e-mail from one of her close friends last night (also a friend of mine, just much closer to the ex) that said the following (items in italics have been changed):


Is she right. Am I just deluding myself? I mean, I know that our current relationship is done, that's not a question. And the thought of not being with her long-term or rebuilding something is killing me. Its been so tough not having her here these last 5 nights (possibly our longest separation since we moved in together) that the thought of not having her there ever again makes me wish I was dead. I'm not a suicidal type, and I can't imagine doing anything but going through the motions without her.

I've only read the first 20 or so pages of "His Needs, Her Needs", and already I've seen areas where I could have been different (and where she could have been different) that could have changed where we are now. I know I have it in me to make these changes. She is worth it to me. She is worth everything to me. And I'm so afraid that I've missed my chance and have lost her light forever. I know you say be her friend because that's what she needs now, and I'm okay with that, and I just can't imagine not being with her again in the future. She is so unlike any other woman I've met in my life that it seems anyone else would pale by comparison.

I was listening to the Hoobastank song "Reason" the other night. Most of you probably know it, and for those who don't, it goes as follows:


This song hits me 100%. I don't think its a square peg and round hole. Or if it is, then I just need to shave off the corners of the square so it fits the hole, or I have to shave my corners while she expands the hole (boy, does that sound dirty, but isn't) and we can work again. I just don't know if I'm just chasing a pipe dream or not.

I can't tell you whether to invest the time in something that might not pan out. I can say that I would ignore this message from this 'friend' which sounds to me to be completely worked out between the two of them, to get you off ex's back.

And, yes, get to the C asap.

Well, the latest in my manic depressive experience was that she called me from Mexico this morning. She said she tried to call over the weekend, and I missed it. That's possible, since she shows up as "Unknown" when she calls from Mexico, and I have an annoying client who shows up as "Unknown" whose calls I sometimes avoid. Had she left a message, I would have called her back. She said it was okay, and who knows if she called OM or not. Still, it was great to hear her voice, and great to talk to her.

I was very frank with her that I'm getting in touch with ways I didn't address her needs in the past, and that I was sorry about it, and that I realized sorry didn't change anything, and that I was committed to showing her through my actions that I was serious about addressing those wrongs.

She wants to be revamping her image (as I mentioned, she's a celebrity in her field) and I told her that I wanted to help her with it. Her response was basically "Okay, but you have to prove it to me on a small scale before I let you attempt things on a big scale." Honestly, those words made me grin from ear to ear! Its clear that she hasn't given up on me, and that she wants us to stay close. This isn't about romance, any thoughts of that are way down the line as far as I'm concerned, its about her giving me the opportunity to show her that I am serious about making changes. I am 100% committed to that.

I'm still going to call a counselor, though...these ups and downs are no way to live life. I know the ex has been going through a lot of them for many years, and I wonder even more how she survived this long. Well, I'm going to make things better for me, and hopefully for her, too!

Honestly, I don't think it was worked out between them. This friend is out of state, and so doesn't see the ex in d-t-d mode. I think she really is suggesting what she feels is the best course of action, and she is reflecting her own experience. If you don't know anyone who rebuilt, then rebuilding is not possible.

It really occurred to me that if the ex did not still have some feelings for me, she would not stay in the same house as me, let alone the same bed. There's a limit to what one will do for convenience. I do believe she just really wanted me to wake up and see how I was hurting her.

I'm going to dismiss the friend's words as "not-so-helpful" advice, and keep on the path that my heart tells me is correct.

I've got an appointment with a counselor tomorrow. He seems like a nice guy on the phone, we'll see how it goes.

I'm curious as to why you two divorced but share the same bed. I know frequently people get stuck sharing a house for financial reasons....but the same bed?

Having gone through a separation from my H six months ago, I can tell you it is very, very hard to detach when you are still in such close contact.

After a while, I began to realize deep down we didn't want to detach. There is still a lot of love between us. It's just that we have these issues that seemed, at the time (and still do some days) insurmountable.

What finally happened to us was I decided we needed to either detach completely (as complete as you can with a child) or we needed to attempt a reconciliation. My H was all for a R since he never wanted the S to begin with.

I began to see the lack of detachment was preventing me from mourning the loss of the M and moving on. It was at that time I stumbled upon the website and realized, hmmm, maybe we can fix this. My H was receptive to the idea.

I guess my point is, despite what your friend said, there is always hope and you don't have to detach until you are ready. I kind of wonder if she really wants to sever all ties, anyway. A person who really wants to get on with their life would have moved out a long time ago without any prodding.

MizzJuneBug - That's kind of my feeling, too. I am really beginning to think that she never wanted the D, she just thought there was nothing she could do that would get me to wake up to my destructive behaviors. I'm still getting somewhat mixed signals from her, which is normal at this point, I think. And, I also realize that to move on, we need some physical separation. I'm thinking about (and would appreciate feedback on) saying "Look, you need to move into the guest room so we can start establishing our separate identities. However, if think that we have a shot at reconciliation, and are willing to put in the same work that I will, then we can keep up with the current arrangement."

As for how we do it, we still love each other. And not having sex isn't different from when we were married (one of my needs that wasn't being met, obviously). It does afford us the opportunity to talk about things, which is very important to her and, as I'm learning, to me, too. It sounds like my situation is similar to yours. After being on this site, and starting to read HNHN, I realize that our problems aren't insurmountable, and they will require work, and if we are both willing to put in the work (I know I am), then we can get back to a very strong relationship. And I also know that I have to walk the walk with this, or it will never work.

Ack...the mixed signals continue. We had dinner (pleasant except for lousy service) after I picked her up from the airport. When we got home I got a intense hug of the "thank you for being here for me type" and all was good. At the same time, the divorce paperwork had come while she was away, and she was eager to get it because there are a few final steps she has to do (apparently, we're technically still married until she has her witness send a copy of the paperwork that is here at the house to me...at the house...go figure). Its like she has to temper any affection with hardening her heart at the same time. Frustrating, confusing, and I'll just keep working on myself. That's becoming my mantra.

So, an eventful day. She still vehemently denies that there is anything past friendship with OM, despite me seeing a text message from her to him where she says she loves him, and from him to her with "I love you soooo much" in it. We also got into a bit of a disagreement, and she said that if she didn't feel welcome, she might have no choice but to run to the arms of another man. So, I still suspect this an a EA only. She does say she does care for him because "Its nice to have a friend who understands me." Bottom line is I can't worry about it, I have to show her I'm the better man in the long run.

Told her today she needed to move into the guest room. I still have mixed feelings about this, its going to be tough not having her in the bed with me, and at the same time I need my space to just clear my head. I'm not sleeping these days (5 hours is a good night) and I have to get used to the idea. I did relent on her having to move all her clothes into the other room and not having access to the master bath (which has the nice tub) because I had promised her she would still have access to them at some point. However, I made it clear that she needs to do this on my schedule, not hers. Its not a perfect boundary, and its something.

We talked about starting to work on things, and she was more amenable than I expected. Her trust level in me is very low right now, she's very fragile. She's also misinterpreting things I say, and I am with her. We need to have better communication. She wants to support me in self-improvement, and is very skeptical. I guess I can't blame her. And we're both on eggshells too much, which is another reason I think the separate rooms will be helpful. I think I can probably get her to fill out the emotional needs questionnaire in the next few weeks. I'm not going to shove that on her right away, just do it in a "Okay, in this work I'm doing, it would help if we could both fill this out" sort of way.

Saw a psychologist today. Unfortunately, he can't prescribe anything, so I didn't get anything to help me sleep. I think the ex may have some Ambien, I may ask her if she has a spare, and I'll call my doctor to see if he can write me a script. 4-5 hours of sleep isn't cutting it.

I won't go into everything at the session, it was an initial session. He did keep wanting to know what I was getting out of the relationship. The truth is that I've carried the load most of the time, and that's taken a toll. She's always been worth it to me, and it obviously frayed me around the edges, which contributed to the D. The bottom line is that there is a part of me that likes taking care of her, and more importantly, she has such a brilliant light inside of her, that its been worth putting up with all the garbage to get glimpses of it. He agrees that she has a lot of growing up to do, and should be getting counseling. Easier said than done. He also thinks I need to be more forceful with her in setting some boundaries, which is going to be tough. However, he's almost certainly correct. I'm going to see him again next week. I'm not 100% sold on him, however I didn't dislike him, so I'm going to give him at least one more shot.

Sounds like good progress. A red flag for me:
When someone says that, it worries me, because this kind of caring/payoff sometimes signals that you aren't truly looking for a soulmate as much as someone to 'fix' or 'groom' so you can soothe your own ego. That can be a self-defeating prophecy, especially if the person you subconsciously think needs your help outgrows that need, leaving you empty and not understanding why you're so upset. These are very subtle things, dealing with FOO stuff that you probably aren't even aware of. Something worth asking the C about.

Okay, first, what's FOO? Second, the light inside her is more important to me than the taking care of her. Yeah, from a standpoint of "being needed", its very nice, and she's leaned on me much, much, more than I've leaned on her during the relationship (there are times I've said "I'm not allowed to have a bad day, because I can't appear to not be strong for you" or words to that effect), and it takes a toll. I would much rather have her stand up on her own and be much more like equals than to have to be her caretaker. 9 years ago that was okay, she's 30 now, she needs to be an adult. I think she feels this too, and may have felt smothered by me sometimes, and that could have caused some issues. I really want to discuss this with her.

Communications is totally the key to any future for us.

It's a good sign that you are aware of all that.

FOO means family of origin. Theory holds that just about everything about you is what it is strictly because of the family you grew up in. My dad left when I was 12; I learned to seek out boys and try to win their favor any way I could, in an attempt to earn some 'love' to replace the love I lost from my dad - very typical behavior for when a father leaves a preteen/teen girl, well documented. If your parent is an alcoholic, you learn to enable. If your parent puts you down all the time, you never learn to value yourself. If your mother is weak, you may grow up wanting to take care of other people like you did her. Stuff like that.

If you ever want to know yourself and even fix yourself, you almost always have to investigate your childhood to see why you turned out the way you did. Just like you can predict what your W will do, based on her family.

I had a very poor self-image for a lot of years (I still struggle with it, which I guess is why validation is important to me) and eventually realized it started when I was 2 and my brother was born. My mom was having serious back problems and was laid up for a long time after he was born. So, I went from the baby and #1 on everyone's list to #3, not even #2 where most kids go when there's a newborn. Nobody did it to hurt me, and at that age, I made a judgment, and spent years compiling evidence to back up that I wasn't important/good enough. Remnants of this are why this is so tough. I've spent a lot of years building up myself and my defenses, and the D undermined a huge amount of that.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that OM is just an EA, despite ILYs. I know I said this yesterday, and I'm sure she does care about him, maybe does love him because he's been filling an EN of hers. With him hundreds of miles away, switching it back to me filling that EN is easier than if he was a coworker or guy down the street.

A couple of good things have happened. Last night I went up to talk to her in her sewing room, just to spend some time with her. She was fairly busy/distracted, so I didn't stay long, and I let her tell me when to go, rather than getting up as if I was bored. I came down later when I was going to go to sleep to say goodnight, and she told me "You don't have to rush off, you can stay for a while", which I take as a good sign. I was insanely tired, and stayed anyway. We talked for about 1/2 hour this morning, just good conversation, which was nice. Got a huge hug from her before leaving for work. I really miss kissing her goodbye. We haven't had a real kiss in about 6 weeks. However, I took the step of kissing her on the top of the head after a hug yesterday, not intended to be a romantic thing, just a comforting thing, and there was no "don't do that." In fact, she doesn't flinch away from my touch at all. I'm definitely trying to initiate anything sexual, however I think if she was uncomfortable with it, there would be some tensing up or something.

She's still insanely gun shy, as she should be at this point, and I am not reading too much into any one day, and it does feel like progress to me. I'm settling in for the long haul.

This all sounds wonderful, and very very encouraging. Good work.

i dunno, i am just not getting good vibes about this whole sitch.

honestly, you two are divorced and she is free to do as she chooses. i think the whole sleeping in the same bed, same house, etc, is probably messing with her head and yours. i feel like you are grasping at whatever crumbs she throws you while she is also getting needs met by this new "bf".

none of this seems very healthy to me at all. i understand you want to salvage this but i just feel like she is playing both sides.

and why would she move out? she has it great! she has you fawning all over her, but you are divorced, and she is free to do as she chooses. she has the best of both worlds! i wouldn't leave either! just because she is not moving out doesn't mean she is committed to working on things.

i have been manipulated and burned too many times to see a lot of positive here. i just feel like she is manipulating and i feel as though you want to be the father figure who saves her.

mlhb

mlhb - Again, I appreciate your input. Some of what you say may be true. As mentioned in the other thread, the bed situation is changing, and that is an important first step in things. We both certainly need room to clear our head. Is she playing both sides? I don't know. She's generally not that devious a person, it would be unlike her. Which doesn't mean that its not the case. Is this guy really anything more than a friend? Again, I don't know. Its especially tough to know with him being out of state. Its not like she's jetting off to see him every weekend, or she's disappearing for the weekend. She has expressed a desire to work on things. Time will tell if that is true or not.

The bottom line for me is that I've invested 9 years of my life into this relationship, I still have very strong feelings for her, she definitely has feelings for me, and I'm willing to invest another few months to see if there is the possibility of rebuilding something good for both of us.

I don't see myself as a father figure to her. Yeah, I want to see her succeed and grow, and who wouldn't want that for someone they love. In fact, at this point the only way things could possibly work in the future is if she is able to stand on her own feet.

well, i do wish the best for you. good luck.

mlhb

Thanks for that. On another note, for personal reasons, I am changing my display name.

The more I think about things, the more I believe I am going to need a "Sh*t or get off the pot" talk with her in the next few weeks. I still love her, I still want to be with her, and if she's not interested in that, then I have to figure out some way to move on, which will probably mean having nothing more than cursory contact with her. If she's living in the house, which she's allowed to do under the divorce agreement, I don't think I can avoid her 100%, and I do think I can change the rules enough that she gets so frustrated with the situation that she decides to move out. She has threatened that if I did that she would cut off all contact, and that may be a risk I have to take. If she's totally gone, at least she'll have a chance to explore her feelings for me without me around, and if she then decides she wants to restart something, then I'll probably be open to the idea (who knows what will happen to me in the interim?).

Obviously, I'd prefer her saying "You know, I've seen you really making an effort here, and maybe I did act too rashly. I'm not willing to say that we are going to get back together yet, and I would like to get back to where we are, too, and I'm willing to do the work it takes, too." If she said that, I'm confident we could repair things, restart them. I have no idea how long it would take, months, certainly, maybe more, and she's worth it to me. I just am more and more realizing that, as some have said, this situation is not good for either of us. Neither of us wants to let go, but we don't know if we're afraid of pulling apart and losing all contact, or pulling together and getting hurt again.

I'm going to keep loving her and work on meeting her ENs. I can already tell that she's looking at me differently, I just don't know if its enough.

Being in this limbo does take its toll. I was away last night at a business meeting. I come home today, she's calling me on the way worried about me and happy I'm coming home. I get a big hug when I get in and then we have a very nice dinner together. Then, while we're watching TV and chatting, she suddenly says she has to get back to sewing. The sewing room is one of her retreats here, and 1/2 the time she says she's sewing she's actually chatting away on the computer or surfing the net. So, lord only knows what she's doing up there, and I'm not going to pry.

I was having a long talk with my business partner, who is on his 3rd marriage, and he was basically telling me things I could do that would have helped, and might still help. It was basically a lot of stuff from HNHN, and it was still useful. Then he suggested that I tell her in a loving way "Look, you know I love you, and you know I want to grow old with you. However, I know you're not sure of your feelings, and this situation isn't good for both of us. I've rented a furnished apartment for you for a month. I want you to move in there, and for us to have no contact for 30 days. At the end of that time, I think you'll know exactly how you feel about me" or words to that effect. It sounds a lot like a Plan B, from what I've read about Plan B. It's scary, because it could be that she finds that she doesn't need me in her life, and that it would kill any chance of rebuilding. It's scary, too, because I could send her running to OM. Although, in either case, at least I'd know one way or the other and if it meant that any chance was gone, at least for the foreseeable future, at least I could try to move on with my life.

Now, that being said, I'm pretty sure her reaction would be fear/anger at first. Accusations of not caring about her, how it won't be just 30 days, she'll never talk to me again. She'll call OM and tell him how terrible I am and he'll tell her that he still loves her. She'll talk to him about maybe she should go out there, and then he'll falter. Because there's a huge difference between having a long distance, mostly internet/phone relationship, and suddenly having someone move into your life before you have a lot of history, especially someone from another state. Reluctantly, he might say yes. Then, she drags her heels about actually packing her stuff and going out there, making excuses to herself. By the fifth day, she's calling and/or sending text messages, which I wouldn't take (for me to maintain the self control not to respond will be quite the challenge, I honestly have a hard time of conceiving of not having contact with her for 30 days). And, from there I don't know how it goes. I suspect she'll realize after 30 days how much we are part of each other's life and will be willing to start on a reconciliation. For my standpoint, I know how I'll feel after 30 days. There's no question in my mind how I feel about her. My business partner asked me if I would still love her when she's older and flabbier. I told him that I want to love her until one of us gets put in a pine box.

I'm still scared, still not sure if this is right, or if I should build up more deposits in her Love Bank first, or if its too risky with her history of depression. I'm very scared of my suspicions of how things will go being wrong. I'm asking for opinions here.

I also have another question. For years when I do laundry, I do our laundry. Tomorrow is laundry day. Do I just do mine, which I realize will upset her, and maybe take hits in the Love Bank, and at least establish another boundary, or should I do hers and make a deposit, and still have an undefined boundary? I'm very confused here.

She said to me last night "You didn't tell me how your doctor's visit went", referring to the counselor. I told her I really didn't want to talk about it in depth, because it was personal (which is the truth, plus there was a lot about our relationship) and that it was good to talk to someone else and that I was going to see the guy again and that I thought that it might not be too long a deal. All of that's true, except for the part where it might not be too long a deal. I have no idea how long this will take.

I'm crossing my fingers that her asking about it without me bringing it up is a good sign that maybe she's thinking about it for herself.

I just got the final papers today (well, yesterday, but I was out of town and didn't check mail until today) and oddly enough, its okay. It's just a stop on the journey. I can already see changes in her, as I'm sure she can see them in me. We have a long road ahead of us, and I'm not certain where it will take us, and I do know we love each other, and with love, anything is possible.

Well, things took another turn today, not sure if its good or bad. First, we had a great day yesterday, basically hanging out together. Today we get together for lunch, not until 2:30, which is pretty late. First, she tells me she's getting out of her company (yay!) in the next few months. This will reduce a lot of stress in her life. And, she'll be getting some payment out of it, so my alimony will be somewhat lower. I'm actually thrilled about that. Then, she tells me that she got accepted to the school she wants to go to in another state (near OM), however its more expensive than the schools here, and she has to be there 12 months to get in state rates, and she's not sure if she can afford it. She says maybe she'll go for a year and just work or something, or do studying so she can get lower rates. However, since the DA says I only pay for her school for 3 years, and at a rate based on in state tuition here, then she'd have to finish everything in 2 years, and she doesn't know if she can do it. Now, I love this woman and want her to get the best education possible, and at the same time she's the one who dumped me, so she isn't getting anything more than that to which I agreed. And she of course claims I'm not happy for her, because it would be upsetting to me if she was out of state (what, now I'm not supposed to be honest about how I feel?). We then get into how she doesn't feel how sharing the bed and the bathroom isn't "playing at being married" (my term). I told her we need distance, and maybe the best idea was for her to get her own place. She then launches into how she thought she was safe at the house, and wasn't going to be "thrown out into the cold." This also comes up when she says that if she ever started dating someone, she wouldn't feel safe, because I might throw her out of the house. Geezus...insecure much?

Found out more about OM. She still says they are just close friends, however she adds that all his friends think he should date her, and all her friends think she should date him, however she doesn't want the pressure of having to date anyone. She's also encouraging me to date again, and I was quite blunt in saying that I'm not ready to date anyone and am not sure when I will be, because I have too much work to do on myself. Its interesting that she's pushing me to date. Catperson said early on that that would "give her permission" to date. So, since I DO have a lot of work to do on myself, and I'm not looking now, she's going to have to make the first move.

I got a version of the ILYBINILWY speech, too. Basically, she needs me to be her friend now, not some guy trying to date her. I get that, and I know that's where she needs me, too, and I told her if she and I tried to date now, it would be a train wreck (somehow she heard this as if she tried to date anyone, but we got by that). She also told me that her trust level in me was so low now that it was very hard for her to say she loves me. She wants me to always be her best friend, though. I'm not quite sure how you reconcile these two, and winning back her trust is a top priority to me.

I also was very blunt with her about getting counseling. I'll take it as a semi-positive sign that she didn't say "no", which she's always done in the past. She didn't say yes, either, and one looks for little things.

The best part was when she was saying that she somewhat felt that my working on myself was a "ploy" to get her back. I told her I was doing it for me (true) and also pointed out that if I was doing it to make me the most wonderful man she could ever imagine, would that be so terrible?

So, it was a stressful time, and not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. It really clarified where we stand. There is nothing romantic even on the horizon, and she doesn't trust me. So, it gives me an idea how to approach this. I'm just going to keep plan A'ing it, trying to meet her ENs and working on winning back her trust. I have several months before she moves away. By that point, I think we'll both have a much better picture of whether or not there is even a potential future for us. If there's not, then if/when she moves, I will probably cut off contact with her for some time. I'm too in love with her right now to deal with things rationally.

BTW, my gut still tells me that her first choice would be to be together with me, and that she is way too afraid of being hurt again to even consider it for the present. The very fact that she interacts with me so much and didn't run for the hills right away says a lot. She's testing me constantly now, and expecting me to slip up and fall back, and not willing to believe anything yet. Its hard for me to blame her for that, either.

I know there are probably those of you who think that I should just give up on things at this point, and she's too amazing a woman for me to do that. I am willing to wait for her as long as it takes. It doesn't mean that someone else won't enter my life and I'll change my opinion, and it does mean that right now I still love her too much to quit her.

Sounds like amazing progress. Please don't let her talk you into 'needing' to help her pay for more than that. I can see that possibility from here.

That's confusing. It makes me feel like she has an agenda in saying it, as in my previous comment.

I'm not trying to minimize her feelings, and I don't know her, but this really sounds like she's...whining...for lack of a better word, so that she looks like the victim. She might sincerely feel these things, but I think she's playing on your feelings a bit by stressing ahead of time that, if you really loved her, you'd cut her some slack or else...duh duh duh, she just might backslide into an unhealthy state of mind; and it'd be all your fault for not protecting her and/or being selfish.

Glad to hear this. Maybe you'll be a good role model for her.

Honestly? If you're supposed to be her best friend, it would be you who needs to go ahead and point out that, yes, any other relationship probably would be a train wreck if she doesn't deal with her own issues first. You might point that out to her, or reiterate what you've already said.

IMO, that makes you very attractive! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Very common, actually. I hear that a lot.

It sounds like you've reached a pretty good place, as good a one as you can get to. So be proud of yourself. I love that you listen to everyone's advice, educate yourself, and are willing to trust in a C. No matter what happens, your life is looking up.

I slept terribly last night, mind racing over everything that went on. About 4 hours of sleep, split into 2 1/2 hours followed by 2 hours of not being to sleep, followed by 1 1/2 hours of sleep. That kind of sucks because it was after a couple of really good nights of sleep. XW and I talked this morning, and she said a lot of what she said yesterday was because she felt I was reading too much into things, and that I was going to try to get "all romantic" with her. A lot came from me posting on a journal that I had a good day Sunday. And, I did have a good day (with her) on Sunday. It wasn't a romantic day, but it was good, quality time together, we had fun, we enjoyed each other's company, we didn't fight. It was a starting point. However, I'm the one who keeps saying I'm not interested in romance now, and she doesn't accept that yet. I guess I shouldn't fault her for that. Actually, except for being very tired, I felt a lot better after the talk with her.

I asked her about the "ploy" thing again this morning, and she finally admitted that it wouldn't be a bad thing, she just didn't want to give me false expectations. Again, fair enough.

BTW, Catperson, regarding you thinking she has an agenda, you may be right. Before things went sour, we were supposed to go to Japan together next month. That's off now. One of her favorite places there is closing, and I got a text message from her saying "It will be so sad to never see it again." I read that as "Well, wouldn't you consider going with me (or sending her) anyway?" She's not good at asking for things directly, which always bugged me. And, as I said in my other post, there are consequences to her actions. One of those is that she figures out how to pay for school on her own. We made a deal as to what I would cover, she signed off on it, that's what she gets.

As for being her best friend and telling her that any relationship she gets into would be a wreck now, I think she knows that to some extent, and I'm also a spurned XH who partially wants to see her crash and burn (hey, I'm working on myself, I'm not perfect yet).

She also asked what she could do to make things better, and I told her she had her chance for that 4 months ago when she said no to counseling. She said that a few counseling sessions wouldn't have fixed our problems, which is probably true, and that she still needs her space to figure out her life. However, I felt better about saying it.

I also keep having to remind myself that its at least 3 months until she moves out of state, if she moves out of state at all. Who knows where things will be in 3 months. And if she goes, then we will really see how we function without the other around.

Our first date was Valentine's Day, 1999. We haven't spent the last few together because her job takes her to a convention on the east coast that is always on President's Day weekend and she's either there or on her way there on V-Day. She left last night for it (I took her to the airport). I gave her a card, didn't go for overly romantic, and did put a note in there about how we had come full circle from friends to lovers to spouses and back to friends, and about how I was working on making myself a better man, for me, and because she inspires me, and telling her that as I have always told her over the years, that I believe in her and support her dreams. I don't know how she'll take it. I did let her know beforehand that I was giving her the card, because I didn't want one of her freakouts worrying about me getting "all romantic." OM is going to be at this convention (his company is in the same industry, that's how they met) and she was talking about some things he was getting her (nothing romantic, some DVDs). She talks about him like a friend, there's never anything wistful or a faraway look in her eyes when she does. Either she's a great actress, or it may be there really isn't anything more than a close friendship between them at this point.

Things have been good the last few days. No arguments, spending some good time together, being supportive of each other. And I'm always wondering how low I took my Love Bank with her. All I can do is keep making deposits and know that they will build up over time. I have the house to myself for 3 days (our housemate is also at the same convention, although just as an attendee) and among my goals is finishing HNHN and starting to read the Five Love Languages (Men's Edition). I'll have fresh roses waiting for her at the house when she comes home Monday night, and just continue to work on myself and improving things between us.

She says she'll miss me when she's gone. I wish I totally believed that. I don't want to call her, I want her to make the first move there, and I already miss her.

Overall, I'll be happier when its the 15th.

This has been a tough few days. I haven't spoken to her since very early Thursday morning (and that was literally for a minute) and I want to pick up the phone and call her, and I promised myself I wouldn't. I need to give her some space, and I know she's with a lot of friends, and its just weird not hearing from her. OM is at the convention where she is, and the thought, irrational or not, that keeps running through my mind is "Because I'm not getting in contact and he's there, she's thinking 'To heck with EOTP, I'll just spend more time with OM.'" On the other hand, I suppose it could be that she really misses me, and she doesn't want to be the one to make the first move. I just wonder if she's even thinking about me. I wonder if she wonders what I'm doing as much as I wonder what she's doing.

I'll admit I haven't given your thread a thorough review but it seems to me the best thing you can do for yourself is concentrate on what you need to do to build your self esteem.

You're concentrating on getting your ex-wife back and I think that side tracks you from having to work on yourself. Apart from driving yourself crazy wondering about what your ex is doing and who she's with you're not getting on with the work of healing from the divorce, learning about yourself, and becoming a better person with whom one might want to have a relationship.

Focus on yourself and what you need. Don't include your ex-wife in that.

I agree. Stop obsessing on her and work on yourself. Confident people are irresistable. Become irresistable. Work on yourself. Do you volunteer at anything? Find something to volunteer at. If you don't know how, call United Way (unitedway.org) and ask them to help you find something. This is the #1 way to start working on yourself - helping others. Call today.

I appreciate the feedback from both of you. You're right, the primary focus of this has to be on me first and then on us, if there is actually going to be an "us." I am working on myself, and that doesn't stop the lonely. Its sort of nice to have the house to myself this weekend and just concentrate on me, and at the same time, it would be nice to have someone around with whom to share things. The time alone has given me time to finish HNHN, I've started The Five Love Languages. Some people I know from Canada are in town this weekend, and I'll be getting together with them. I'm doing what I can to do things for myself, and after 9 years, its a challenge.

I also got myself a new HDTV that I've been wanting and a PS3 this weekend. One nice thing about this is I don't have to answer financially to anyone (and yes, its okay, I can afford these...lol).

Not obsessing it a challenge for me, as I have mild OCD. Of course, resisting the urge to obsess is one of the things I want to improve about myself. Its not easy, that's for sure.

Catperson, I like your suggestion. I will do that.

Hmm..not sure why my post didn't show up. Anyway, Catperson, I just filled out a volunteer application on the local United Way website. I expect they will contact me in the near future. I'm actually looking forward to it. While reading things from Al Turtle's site, he also suggests volunteer work as a good alternate source of love units, so this is definitely a step to getting my sanity back and figuring out where I am in life.

{{{Eyes}}} I'm so proud of you! Great step! I really think you will be amazed how good it makes you feel, if you approach it the right way, as in not to get something out of it, but to give. And there are so very many people out there who are barely surviving, and will be so grateful that someone takes an interest in them. Good job.

Catperson...I don't know if you've read the Five Love Languages, however my #1 language is Words of Affirmation, so your post meant a lot to me. Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She's coming home from the east coast tonight, I'm picking her up at the airport. It will be nice to see her (she's been gone since Wednesday night). There are new roses waiting for her. We had a nice talk (about 1/2 hour) earlier today, where she again reiterated that she needs me as a friend now. She also said I shouldn't focus on proving myself to her. I told her that I wanted to re-earn her trust, and when I said proving myself, it was part of that process, that if I was acting differently with her than I had been, that I was being a true friend. I told her that I wanted to get back to being her confidante, and she said she wanted that, too.

She did tell me that its much more likely that she's going to Texas for school. She said she didn't want to talk about it much with me, because I would go all emo on her (me? emo? NEVER! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). I told her that while it wasn't easy on me, I really do want what's best for her, and that she can definitely talk to me about it. Honestly, at this point I'm pretty resigned to her going, and that just is what it is. It will be easier for me to work on myself when she's not here, and I still have 3-5 months to show her that I've made changes to myself. And, in 3-5 months, I'll know if she's working on herself, and also I'll have a much better picture of where our future might be headed.

Basically, its tough news, if not totally unexpected, and none of it changes the work I want to do on myself. I'm going to do my best not to worry about where she is going, as that's out of my control, I'm going to worry about where I am going. And if my path brings our paths back closer, so much the better.

Wow. Very impressive. I'm so amazed at the progress you've made. Give it time, and she might, too.

And...

Texas? Texas? Did you say Texas? Why aren't YOU going to Texas too? We have tens of thousands of jobs here, amazing climate, lowest cost of living in the country...just sayin'... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

catperson - I think me going to Texas would be considered a little clingy and pushy at this point. A year from now...who knows? Plus, I have my own company here. Relocating it to Texas would be a challenge, although opening a Texas branch could happen. In addition, OM is in Texas. I honestly expect that to fall apart eventually, I don't stress about it, and by the time she moves there, she may feel closer to me than him anyway...we'll just see.

Okay, here's tonight's puzzle. I'm picking her up at the airport later, and I asked her if she wanted some frozen yogurt (there's a type here that is fantastic) and her answer was "I don't know, you decide." What the heck does that mean? One of my big frustrations with her over the years was she doesn't ask for things directly. I think she's saying "Yes, I want some, but I don't want it to look like I'm making you do something else for me." However, I have no idea. Any clues?

OH, I know, I was just kidding. For your question? Go ahead and spoil her. Can't hurt to be nice to someone.

Well, I did bring her the yogurt last night. She enjoyed it. Got a really big hug when she got back and although she was tired, we had some nice conversation. She also thanked me for the flowers. Now, all that being said, when she got home, she commented "Oh, you got a new laundry sorter." I told her "Yes, I got that one for my stuff. I moved yours down into the middle bedroom." She was visibly a bit shaken by this. She got into this mode she gets in where she kept apologizing for taking too long to get ready for bed. I asked why she felt rushed. And she says "Well, you want me to put the handle down for the luggage. Do you just want me to move downstairs tonight?" I didn't, and told her so. We talked a little more before sleeping. Neither of us really wants to stop sleeping together, and we both realize we need the separation. I did say that if, on occasion, she wants to come up and stay, just for the companionship, so we can talk and watch TV or whatever, and she seemed to be interested in that. I definitely don't want that to be an every day event, as that defeats the purpose of her moving down anyway.

We talked more this morning, too. I can tell that the separating rooms is going to be tough on her (not that it will be easy on me). And that makes me realize even more that it needs to be done. If she never has to see what she's missing, she never has to want it back. For instance, one of our cats (my cats?) has always slept with us. Well, she won't have that anymore downstairs. I know she'll miss it. I mentioned that I went to Costco this weekend and she gave a disappointed "Oh, you went to Costco?" to me. It was a "Why didn't you ask me if I needed anything?" response. And that's not my responsibility anymore. In fact, when I went, I was careful to get virtually nothing I'd be getting just for her (i.e., no cosmetics, or drinks that only she drinks and the like). I don't consider this being mean, I consider this being necessary and part of both of our growth process.

I'd let her come back upstairs for good if she agreed to start working on us, by doing things like going through questionnaires and from there, counseling. I've also realized its too early in the process to propose this to her, even though I want to do it today. However, I think if I did this today, it would push her farther away. I've also realized that if I do get to the point where I ask, I am going to ask her to cut off contact with the guy in Texas, even if she does end up going to school there (which I know she wants to do, at least as of now). I've realized we can't work on us while she has him in her back pocket. That's another reason why I don't want to ask this now. Its just too soon. I haven't done enough work on myself yet for her to see any good reason to give up on him. I guess I'm still in the "Plan A" stage of things, and will worry about "Plan B" down the road.

My night has been somewhat stressful. My XW is pissed about the fact that I moved her laundry downstairs and feels like I'm trying to push her away. She was also still upset about me saying a couple weeks ago that she couldn't use the master bathroom (I had actually earlier told her she could, and relented). We talked about it awhile and she again was going off on how she can't open up to me because it causes a drama bomb and that she just wasn't going to share with me anymore. I did my best to listen and validate her and assure her that I didn't want to push her away and that more than anything I wanted her to open up, and to just be patient with me while I learn. I told her I wanted to understand her better and improve the communication. She told me to stop thinking 10 moves ahead (a valid criticism) and just to concentrate on being her friend. She sends such confusing messages! Its like she wants the divorce, but she doesn't want any consequences, and then when I act like we're divorced she gets angry about it. I guess I should just accept that she's confused. And I did tell her that 3 years was a drop in the bucket of life and that if she needed to be away for that, it was okay. Anyway, it was good and terrible at the same time.

I was pretty upset that she kept not wanting to make eye contact with me while we were talking. Its like she wanted to stay angry with me even when I was making sense. We ended on a good note with a hug, and I don't think there's permanent damage, and its still tough. She says she needs some time to heal now. Well, she's not the only one. I guess I'm wondering if its good that she's upset about these things. That she realizes she can't just push me around and that there are consequences to her actions. At her request, I moved her TV and DVD player into the bedroom, however the TV isn't getting cable for some reason (I will probably have to put in a service call) so she's pretty much just got the DVDs now.

Oh...I did say that people were telling me that I had to establish boundaries and really enforce the fact that we weren't together, and she told me that I was listening to stupid people who don't understand the situation and shouldn't be commenting on it. That's another statement that I have no idea how to read. I asked her where she thought we were going, and its very clear that she has no idea at this point. I guess that's where I'm 10 steps ahead and she's just trying to figure out now.

she doesn't want you to enforce boundaries because she wants to have her cake and eat it to.

mlhb

I think you're right. I'm a little frustrated with her. For some reason, she doesn't seem to get the concept of "you asked me for the divorce. I wanted us to work on things." She can be pissed off for a few days, or a few weeks, or whatever, and it just is what it is. And, when I go to talk to her about it, she complains that I'm getting "clingy and emo." Now, I can be clingy and this whole experience has me pretty emo, and which does she want. Does she want me to leave her alone and at the same time give her everything? Sorry, that isn't going to happen. I love her more than anything, and as I've said repeatedly, nothing is going to happen if we don't both do work. I'm doing mine, admittedly stumbling around a lot and making mistakes, and she needs to step up to the plate, too.

And, its only been a few weeks. This is just day 1 of this split (hence, a new chapter) and I don't expect magical changes in either of us overnight.

I am really having trouble figuring out your "plan". You and your W are divorced, she does nothing for you and shows no interest in reconciliation, but "allows" you to stand on your head and try to make her happy, get her stuff from Costco, keep her entertained and not lonely at night, and never ever make a "mistake" of saying something she does not like.

And as a reward, she is planning to move to Texas and be close to her lover.

OK, so what am I missing here? Am I the only one who thinks this is really FUBAR? I don't really see where you are going with this and why do you think this will "work". It seems that you have put your life on hold, are not moving on or growing, and are essentially stuck in a destructive pattern. You are doing backflips whenever she gives you a hug, which, I suspect, she does more for herself than for you.

I would think that if you really want to have a chance at reconciliation, you need to show her that you are a complete, whole, strong, and differentiated person. And that cannot happen in the environment you are in, and with the unhealthy master/slave pattern that has been established. You need to get her out of the house (not just out of the bed), and start making a life for yourself. You two are divorced - act like it. You are essentially allowing her to choose both her actions and consequences - and that is unhealthy. Divorce has consequences - you should not be shielding her from the negative ones.

AGG

i pretty much told him awhile ago this whole sitch was "FUBAR" but, even though he thanked me for my input, it has been falling on somewhat deaf ears.

i agree with your analysis agg. and it is one i pretty much made before as well. i think the whole thing is pretty messed up. she wants the divorce and to live her life and yet still have him as her fall back guy.

mlhb

Yeah Michelle, I saw your reply early on and concurred. I didn't post because I was waiting for the poster to realize that this was getting him nowhere - but as time goes on, I see him digging deeper and deeper, and not seeing how deep he has dug <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Eyes, you can't get her back by being the ultimate Giver, especially when she treats you like dirt and pouts every time you fail to do what she wants. Reread your thread from the beginning, and ask yourself the simple question about your actions - "how's that working for you?". She ain't gonna step up to no plate; she's moving to Texas to be with her lover, for crying out loud...All you are doing is making her life nice between now and then, helping with the transition. Cut the cord.

AGG

I appreciate the last 3 comments, and I fully understand that this may be a fools errand of the 1st degree. However, I invested 9 years plus into this relationship, and I'm willing to invest another few months. You could all be right, I could just be making these months easier for her before she runs off. And, it could be that over the next few months that she sees the changes in me and decides that maybe there is something worth having and then things take a different course.

I honestly believe that if the call of this guy in Texas was so strong, that she would be there already. If nothing else, I think I understand my XW better than you do, and am willing to continue on this path...for now. My answer could change in a week or a month or 3 months. I don't know. I'm not going to predict the future. I also won't burden you with it. I will post if there are major changes, positive or negative, otherwise I'm done with this thread.

eyes, you are not burdening us at all. BUT, from outsiders looking in, and from many of us who have BTDT, we just have concerns that you are basically getting played in a sense. being taken advantage of for the nice guy you obviously are. i, for one, don't like to see nice guys being taken advantage of! some of the things i read on your thread that she is doing or saying or acting just makes my blood boil. i'd like to have a nice chat her. from us, who are on the outside looking in, from you write, i just feel that what we see is wayyyy different from what you see.

but you are certainly entitled to do whatever it is you want to do. and if you want to attempt to Plan A the ****** out of her before she leaves for college where her bf is, etc, just to see what may happen, then do it. we'll be here for you either way it goes.

mlhb

I'm going to give an update, just because she and I had a long (hour plus) talk this morning. It was very helpful for me, despite the fact that she felt there were some things that were a few steps backwards. First of all, I basically accused her of having the EA with OM in Texas before we were divorced. She insists that this wasn't the case (although I don't think she understands exactly what constitutes an EA) and that he is still nothing more than a friend. She says that she has actually been keeping him at bay because she's afraid to start a new relationship. Now, she did say they had a "kick-a**" Valentine's Day. He got her roses and chocolate, and they talked and played video games. Honestly, I know her well enough to believe that this is what happened. She says one of the reasons she hasn't started a relationship with him was she was afraid she "wouldn't be safe." Now, there is ZERO history of violence in our relationship and I would rather die than raise a hand against her, however she is concerned about me getting overly jealous. So, to her it is a real fear.

She also made it clear that she was going to Texas for school, first and foremost, and that yes, she might date him when she was there. That's why she says she keeps encouraging me to date. I was quite frank and told her I had no interest in dating anyone, including her, at this point. I have too much work I want to do. At any rate, she then says "Texas isn't forever. I don't want to stay in Texas. I don't know where I want to be, I just want time to figure it out."

I asked her why, if I still wasn't "getting her", that she stayed around. She replied it was because she still had faith in me (this is where she said that my accusations had taken several points off the faith, though). She knows I'm working to change, and wants to give me that chance. However, meanwhile she says that OM does understand her and that they can talk very freely together. She also was upset that I told her I might end up not keeping all of our cats if she moved, because I'm not sure I'm up to caring for 5 cats and a dog on my own. She got very upset about this, because I had said I would "keep the family together", even though she had originally said she thought we'd have to give the pets away (go figure). I did tell her "The family is already split up" and she kept saying "No, its not. I'm still here!"

I also said that if she moved to Texas, it might be better if we had no contact for a while. She was VERY against this idea.

She is still confused and not understanding some things. She doesn't understand why I just can't be her friend like some of her other close friends. I told her that her other close friends hadn't been in love with her for 9+ years, so it wasn't as easy as flicking a switch. Then, when the conversation was done, I went to head downstairs, and she's upset that I was just leaving without giving her a comforting hug goodbye. Yet another mixed message from her.

The bottom line is that she says that she needs me to be her friend now, without it being conditional on us dating again in the future. She also said that if I couldn't be her friend, then the chances of us dating again were pretty nil. I let her really lay it out on the line for me. And, now, I really do get it more (she's skeptical, and I do). I'm actually much more at ease about where things are, and about what my course will be. My primary focus will be working on myself, and improving my communication and understanding skills, especially with her. I am going to totally pull back from pushing anything that could vaguely be considered a romantic agenda, and concentrate on rebuilding the friendship and trust. So, yes, it will still be attempting "to Plan A the ****** out of her before she leaves for college." It may be that in the next five months she realizes that she can open up to me and be close to me again, or it may be that we never heal this gulf. I will also be doing more to be independent of her in that time, so that when she ultimately moves, it will not be as traumatic for me. In any case, I will come out of it with better communications skills and a better sense of myself, and that's my ultimate goal for myself.

I'll provide updates as warranted, however since I am now not expecting any major day to day changes in where we stand, they will likely be infrequent.

Let me ask you a question. She says she wants to be "friends". And you say that you will "Plan A the **** out of her".

OK, so here is the question (two, actually) - do you Plan A the *** out of all your friends? And, more importantly, is she going to Plan A the **** out of you?

You see, true friendship is balanced. Both people in a friendship give and take equally; otherwise the friendship fails.

So, a third question - what has she done recently to show you that she IS in fact your friend? All I see is her taking and you giving.

What she wants is not a friendship, but attention, adoration, and care - without reciprocating. You should not have to walk on eggshells with a true friend, like you are doing around her.

AGG

AGG - Very valid points. When I say "Plan A the *** out of her" (which has mlhb's phrase, I just quoted it), I mean striving to understand her and meet her ENs more than I had in the past. As for "Do I Plan A the *** out of all your friends?", the answer is "I don't, and I'd be a better friend if I did", so I'm striving to do that for other friends, too. In fact, because I had in some ways become overdependent on her, that's almost necessary for my sanity. As for "is she going to Plan A the *** out of you?", that remains to be seen. In her own way, she has taken some little steps. The fact that she is being more open with me, which is difficult for her, is very important. And, right now her trust level in me is lower than my trust level in her. Frankly, her answers this morning about OM in Texas totally satisfied me. I believe she was telling me the truth, and I can adjust from that.

You ask about the balance and I agree completely. I've said throughout this that if she is not growing as I grow, then I know this relationship would never work again, because we'd be at a different level. That's why I know I can only control my end of the equation.

For the third question, I can give you a few examples. First of all, the talks we are having are VERY important to me. The fact that she is willing to take this time when these are difficult conversations for her indicates caring and friendship to me. Even this morning, what precipitated our long conversation was her saying "You said that you really enjoy when we talk in the mornings and at night, so I want to spend the time with you." She'll call me during the day, just to talk. Not necessarily about problems, just to tell me about her day. That's important to me, too. She is going to a political function this weekend, and invited me to go along with her. When I do things to help her out, she has been much more appreciative recently. Am I still taking the bigger steps? No question. Even though I'm the clingier one, is she the one who needs more support/propping up? I would definitely say yes.

And I won't put up with it indefinitely. I am somewhat more prone to quick outbursts at this point (I'm working on that) and she is much more prone to closing off her mind. If that doesn't change, I'm not interested in continuing. As much as I write, I leave a lot out. If she is going to stay a little girl forever, the guy in Texas is welcome to her. I'll still be her friend, and this will just have been an exciting adventure in life. Yet if she blossoms as I know she can, she would be an amazing companion to have on life's journey.

One thing I did leave out. She said "I think you want me to go to Texas and fail!" I had a hard time answering that, because the truth is that there is a part of me that want that to happen and want to be there to point and laugh. However, the truth is that most of me wants her to go there and succeed, because I believe that it is only by succeeding that she will get out of this "child" stage. I believe her relationship with the guy in Texas won't last unless she changes (I don't know enough about him to comment on how he is with relationships). I mean, it could go 6 months, a year, or something, and what they have now is not reality. Its based on internet conversations and phone calls and seeing each other at conventions every couple of months. That's not dealing with the real world. And, if I'm wrong, and it blossoms into something great, then more power to them. I just have seen the stats, and know that this is unlikely. I don't want misery for her, I want happiness. I want that for me, too. I believe it can be achieved with her, and only if we both do a lot of work.

isn't there a significant age difference between the 2 of you? maybe she is just too young for you. her maturity level shows that. i am going to assume that texas guy is probably close to her age?

mlhb

Yes, I'm 46, she's 30. He is closer to her age. He may actually be a year or two younger. I agree with you about the maturity level. One of her main motivations in this was to allow herself to grow up and establish her own identity. That's one of the reasons I think her getting involved with someone else at this stage is a mistake, although that's her mistake to make. Its also why I have no interest in a romantic relationship with her at this point. I don't want to be her dad, I want to be her equal. Honestly, I think where I am these days is in the "I want to keep my foot in the door" stage. I want to remain close, and if she is developing while I am developing, be in a position to see if what brought us together is still there. My biggest fear is losing her out of my life completely. And as much as she has said "If either of us is in a serious relationship again, the other person will have to understand our friendship", I don't know if that holds up in the real world. How would a new wife/serious girlfriend of mine feel about me spending a lot of time with my ex-wife. How would a new husband/serious boyfriend of hers feel about her spending a lot of time with me?

I've said repeatedly that underneath all of the garbage she's the most unique, amazing woman I've ever met and I don't want to lose that out of my life.

Well, just before you said this, I was about to post that you sound like you are trying to be her dad. Note how many times you used phrases like "she needs to grow up", "I am way ahead of her", "she needs to step up to the plate".

It sounds to me like you are waiting for her to live up to some expectation you have of her; that she will blossom into this wonderful, amazing, loving woman that she has the potential to be; just hasn't achieved it yet.

Well, what if she doesn't want to blossom into your vision? What if she is who she is? Or if she does grow and change, she will grow and change into something other than what you expect?

You say you Plan A your friends, or are trying to learn to do that. But you are missing the other half of the friendship - you will not (or should not) be a giver to your friends without them reciprocating; you should not invite them to dinner every week if they don't do somethin gin return..... And yet that is exactly what you are doing with your ex, trying to stand on your head until she "gets it", while she does not nothing in return. Having a chat with you or accepting a hug from you don't qualify, IMO...

I know you want her back, and I am not saying that you shouldn't try to get her back - I would just recommend a completely different approach for getting her back. But if you think your approach is working, that's OK too.

AGG

"If either of us is in a serious relationship again, the other person will have to understand our friendship", I don't know if that holds up in the real world. How would a new wife/serious girlfriend of mine feel about me spending a lot of time with my ex-wife. How would a new husband/serious boyfriend of hers feel about her spending a lot of time with me?

I wouldn't be ok with it I can tell you that.
And I think as time goes on the need to be so close to her, especially once you both move on, that need will be gone. If you two did not live in the same house, etc... If you weren't still trying to act married even though divorced, things would be much different. Once you have someone in your life who is filling your needs you won't NEED to have such a close friendship with your ex. You just need time to heal and move on. And if there is a next time... I think you would be more on the same level as someone your own age. She is only 30. She probably wants to be around and in a relationship with someone she is on the same level as. she is NOT ever going to be on the same level as someone who is 16 years older than she is.

mlhb

No, actually I'd be open to other approaches. However, I am loathe to consider ones that involve cutting her out of my life (i.e., a plan B deal) at this point, because at that point I might lose all contact with her forever, and that's something I really don't want.

And, if she doesn't blossom, she's not the woman for me. I guess a better statement than "I don't want to be her dad" might have been "I'm tired of being her dad", because in many ways I've taken over that role in the relationship (as was pointed out early on in this thread and as I've begun to figure out is more true than I realized).

And hey, you can give me a few points of credit. She had a sewing machine in the shop that was ready, and she asked me if I could go pick it up for her if I was going to be in the area. I actually have a client a couple of miles from the shop and it would have been very easy to stop by, and frankly, it would have disrupted my day. In the past, there's no question I would have altered my schedule to make sure I could get it for her. This time, she's on her own with it. And, amazingly enough, she wasn't pissed off at me for not being able to get it for her. Hey, its a tiny step, and its still a step.

I agree with you. I don't mind if she (or any woman) has male friends, however if its "too close" a male friend, there's way too many dangers.



You may be right on every point. I suppose I'll see as time goes by. However, despite the age difference, we have a lot of common interests, so I don't think that's entirely true. And what you say about someone filling my needs is also very true. I really do have zero interest in a one-sided relationship for anything but the short term. Like I said, I'm investing 5 months of my life in this. That's worth it to me for a potential life-long payback. I'm not going to chase after her for 2-3 years. Once she's out of town, barring us making major strides in our relationship (which may or may not happen), I will begin seeing what is out there in the world again. If her path and mine bring us back together again after that, then so be it. However, there does come a point where I'll be worrying about "me" and not about "us."

Agreed. But, you can be what a real friend would be. Someone who cares about the other person, but does not a) sacrifice their life for their friend (which you are doing since you said you cannot move on because of her); b) does not drop everything at the drop of a hat to do favors for the friend; and c) someone who gets something in return in the friendship.


Hmmm, have you thought about what you just said? Are you saying that you do not want her the way she is, but will want her if she becomes something that she is not? That sounds like a losing proposition to me. Or a fantasy.


Glad you see this. Please realize that you have the power to change that dynamic.


That's a good step. And I hope that she doesn't accuse you of being vindictive or difficult - and if she does, that you will have a good answer for her.

No (healthy) woman would want to date her father. So my thoughts are that she is tired of you telling her how things should be and what she should do, and waiting for her to blossom into something. My guess is that the OM does not tell her that she needs to blossom into anything. What do you think is more attractive to a woman - a man who compliments her for who she is, or a man who tells her that she needs to grow or change to become lovable?

If you want her back, stop thinking that you are so superior to her. Show her that you care about her the way she is. Show her that you respect her the way she is. And stop doing things for her. I still say that the most attractive thing you can do is to stop focusing on her, and to start having a life - go out with friends, get a hobby, be gone a lot from the house.

AGG

well, and i just don't see how they will EVER be on the same level. in 4 years he will be 50 and she will only be 34. i am thinking part of the problem is, whether you agree or not eyes, the age difference. yes, you may enjoy some of the same things, which makes for a FRIENDSHIP but not a relationship. she is going to someone who is closer to her maturity level and who "GETS" her because they are close to the same age.

mlhb

Again, thanks for your comments. AGG, yesterday after our long talk, and after reading your comments, a lot became clearer to me. And what she said was right...I have to become a true friend with no expectations of dating her in the future. My expectations were influencing my behavior in a way that wasn't helping either of us. So, now, those expectations are in the back of my mind. In the forefront is working on myself, working on the communication with her, and being her friend...and making sure she is my friend, too. BTW, there was no vindictiveness over me not picking up that machine. She hurt her back the other day and there was actually gratitude for me carrying it upstairs (this is something I'd do for any friend with a bad back...and this time, I let her ask me to do it, instead of assuming I had to do it for her).

As for whether I am waiting for this idealized version of her, no, not really. I've seen that woman underneath, that woman has been there on and off through our relationship, and that's who I love. The question is whether that woman will emerge from this "adventure", or whether she will fall back and be trapped under all her garbage, or whether something new will emerge. Options 1 and 3 appeal to me (although option 3 is obviously more uncertain). Option 2 doesn't appeal to me.

mlhb - I really don't think the age difference means that much. "Getting" someone has nothing to do with age, it has to do with interests, IMO. There are plenty of couples with lasting relationships that have greater age disparities. What doesn't work (as several people have alluded to here) is a parent/child and husband/wife at the same time. We had too much of the former. Would you say the same thing if I was 60 and she was 44? Or if I was 70 and she was 54? I have many times said that "she keeps me young", because I enjoy her perspective on things, I don't fall into "old fogey" mode because she constantly introduces me to new concepts, new trends and similar things. It rarely feels like there is a big age gap between us. I think it has influenced this situation to some extent, and I don't think it is a killer to this or any other relationship in and of itself.

Interestingly, I'm heading out the door as soon as I post this to an early meeting, and she was the one who seemed disappointed that we wouldn't get to talk this morning. I mean, I'd love to, and I have other priorities today. And no, I'm not going to read too much into any one little thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yup, with emphasis on the second half <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.



Good! I suspect that the more of an independent life you have, the more appealing you will be to her.

AGG

No huge updates. We spent most of the day together on Saturday, it had its frustrations, however there were almost all external and not between us, and it was overall good. In the evening, there was a concert which I thought she'd like more than me (although I was very interested in it, too) and a friend had secured a couple of tickets for me. She was too exhausted to go. I was pretty tired, too, however I decided to go anyway, in part to show her that I had more independence. I ended up thoroughly enjoying the concert. I would have liked to share it with her first hand, and it was not to be. And again it showed her that I'm not dependent on her for all of my entertainment/companionship.

She is definitely more of a taker than a giver with me right now, and I think a lot of that is her low trust level in me. So, this morning she sent me a cute internet link that she thought I'd enjoy. Now, this may not seem like a big deal, however to me its a crack in the ice. She's thinking of me and things I like instead of having this big wall up against me. As they say in "What About Bob?"...'baby steps...baby steps.'

I've been doing a lot of reading from Al Turtle's site. His information fascinates me, and also makes a lot of sense to me. I'm applying what I'm learning there, although I'm stumbling through until I get better at the techniques. I think its making a difference, and I guess I'll see as time goes by.

eye,

in response to your post to me, i don't think all age differences matter as long as both people are on the SAME maturity level. i don't see that here and that is why, in YOUR case, i do think the age difference is mattering. especially since this man in texas is close to her age. she is choosing someone she is on the same maturity level as.

i give you credit. i'd not be able to be on this roller coaster ride after a divorce. i guess the next few months, i hope, will give you your answers and your closure. i rode a roller coaster in my marriage, and i'll tell ya, i wouldn't go it again. she's a waffler. i, for one, cannot deal with wafflers. my exbf was one and i put up with it so long until one day i finally just blew. i feel you either want to be with someone or you don't.

mlhb

I won't argue with you about the roller coaster ride. Frankly, part of my pulling back, giving her space, and working on myself is to dampen the swings either way. Call it self-preservation. I guess her waffling is easier for me to take because I'm often the waffler (just the other night she was telling me about how wishy-washy I was with some things...and she was right).

I also agree with you about the maturity level. One of her stated goals in this process was basically to "grow up and figure out who she is." As I've realized, I'm tired of being her dad. If she can be a mature version of the person I've known for almost 10 years, that will be great. I don't mind some immaturity, at 46 I'm a kid 1/2 the time, and that works for me, and to at least be an adult and make adult decisions is critical. To her credit, she has started to take on some big issues now (her education, her job, the relationship) and while she's making tentative steps (she's still full of self-doubt), the are at least steps.

As for the guy in Texas, I suspect he's above her maturity level, too. As much as I love her, I can honestly she is a stunted teenager in many ways. I honestly think she believes she can keep him as "just a good buddy" indefinitely. Now, I can't speak for him, and I can say that most guys I know would get tired of that after a few months. As more time goes by and my head clears, I really am becoming more convinced that she just considers it a really close friendship. Not that she isn't interested in him, just that she hasn't made that decision about him, me or anyone (that lovely waffling).

i hope you don't get to the breaking point i got to. exbf was such a waffler. and trust me, i loved him with all my heart. would have married him. he would be fine for a few months, all about us and only us. then would change, get scared, lose confidence, whatever, and would tell me he either wanted to break up (which we did several times) or would just say he need space. then he would call and say i was all he wanted and his only love and we would make plans for a romantic weekend only to have him call me a week later with a changed mind again. he did this for several months (and i hung on because i loved him so much) until one day i just lost it. we didn't talk for a month or 2 then he called saying how much he had grown in that time, i was his only love, we forgave each other and said the past was the past. talked every day, made plans to meet actually in february. sent him a great xmas gift because that is the kind of person i am. i got nothing in return but an email in january once again saying he changed his mind.

so, i see a lot of that in your situation and i guess i want to say that i doubt it will get better. it takes a lot to change that, and they are the ones who need to do the changing. i have had to establish no contact with exbf and have blocked all ways he could reach me. it was hard, i loved him. i am still healing and i am still angry.

mlhb

mlhb - I hear what you are saying about your exbf. It sounds like the up and down took a terrible toll on you. Honestly, my relationship has been a roller coaster ride the entire way. I am remembering back to an internet conversation the XW and I had right before we got together. She was in absolute tears because her dreams of marrying a doctor had turned to dust. Later, when I asked her about this conversation, she told me that she was asking me here to treat her better, and not betray her. Again, this goes back to her abandonment issues, and her ongoing history of depression. I'm not qualified to judge this, and she may be manic depressive.

Honestly, though, the roller coaster ride has been part of the adventure. I've always said that this relationship has always kept me on my toes. I have ADD, and there's this part of me that thrills to the mood swings and ups and downs, and much prefers that to someone "run of the mill" and "boring." I obviously hit my frustration point with it over the last year, which led to the communications breakdown which led to the divorce. Now, I have a whole new challenge with her. Its a whole new adventure. I realize that it almost makes her sound like a prize, and I don't want it to come across that way. To me, this is just another step in our adventure together. Now, its a big step and I can't see where I'm landing, and the journey is exhilarating in its own way. I think part of her confusion is that after everything she's (metaphorically) thrown at me, I keep getting up and saying "Okay, try again." I think there's part of her that wonders why I haven't just given up and...well...abandoned her.

OK, so you have now mentioned several times this "low trust level" that she has in you, but I haven't seen an explanation of what that is all about. Could you elaborate on what has caused this "low trust level"?

AGG

Well, I'll give it to you as best I can, since I don't totally understand all the details, as she has not stated on which specific points she does not trust me. It is what she has stated several times. From my standpoint, there was never any sort of infidelity, emotional or physical. However, there were a lot of broken promises. I've mentioned her concerns about my waffling on things. Its true, I am a "should" person a lot of the time (I'm working on this) where if I'm asked if I can do something, I say "I should be able to do it", and in my mind, that left me an "out" if I wasn't able to do it. This has always been very frustrating to her, as she would just like me to commit to one course of action or another. There were a lot of "shoulds", and a lot of small things I didn't get done. For instance, let's say I was supposed to pick up something for the house, and forgot...3 or 4 days in a row. Yes, it happened, and more than once or twice. It might have been something non-critical, like more soda, and it was still a broken promise.

On the cruise we went to in December, I didn't do my homework well enough, and we weren't nearly as prepared as we could have been. She had left this in my hands, as I had insisted on this, wanting to show her that I could arrange the trip, and I said I'd get it done, and I dropped the ball on it and, further, didn't ask for help.

I've mentioned the "don't treat me like a client" deal a few times, and I promised that I would improve there and, frankly, didn't, because until recently I didn't actually understand the issue (I assure you, this no longer happens).

Things like these and others eroded her trust level that I would live up to what I would say I would do, and that I would ever change. I think this is what ultimately triggered the divorce request, because she was convinced that she was "trapped" (her word) with a guy who didn't understand her, and, based on his (my) actions, didn't want to understand her. I can see where that could have been incredibly frustrating for her.

So, I believe that the current "lack of trust" is that while she is seeing changes, right now she is having a difficult time believing that they are real changes and not just a "ploy to get her back" (again, her words). Because of past behaviors, she is still in the state where I have to prove that I am really sincere about changing myself. Call it "Once bitten, twice shy." I realize I won't regain her trust in a day or a week or a month. It will be a long ongoing process. I can see signs that she has noticed the changes, and I also still get skepticism from her. Its really hard for me to blame her. I did a lot of lip service to change, or temporary bursts of change in the past.

Also, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm a recovering compulsive gambler. I did a lot of damage in that time, financially and emotionally. I've been clean for 5 1/2 years, and there were a lot of broken promises when I was gambling, and times I really left her in the lurch. Those memories die hard. As recently as last summer after she and I had a fight and I went out to run errands, she wondered if I had gone gambling (I actually got caught in some long check out lines, and because I was still in a bad mood, took my sweet time getting home). So, there are trust issues related to that, too.

I'm committed to being totally open and honest with her from here on out. She may not like everything about what I say, however she won't have to worry about me making up stories anymore.

Also, I know this was a long post (again). I'm working on condensing, because I know that some people may be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information in some of my posts. However, I think this one deserved a longer explanation. I'm putting a self-imposed 200 word limit on future responses, or at least will give warning if they aren't going to be that way.

in short, you are telling me that you like the drama.
hey, have at it. i can't stand drama. not saying i want "boring" or "run of the mill" as you put it, but i'll take that any day over drama.

the fact that you like this dysfunction is an issue in and of itself. simply put: it is NOT healthy.

i did not find the ups and downs i encountered thrilling or a challenge. at first, i was understanding, but then they just got old until i turned completely indifferent. and frankly, this last time, it just pissed me off. and this was a pattern for him as he had done the same thing in his marriage. thus, i can understand why his exw is so pissed off at him most of the time: she had to live with years of this nonsense.

mlhb

I am amazed at the effect of putting up some boundaries. The last 3 nights, I have decided that I was not going to go down and say good night to her, I was just going to give her space. Each of the last 3 nights, she's come up to my room to say goodnight and talk for a few minutes. This morning I was planning on leaving the house without disturbing her, however she got up and wondered where I was, and I said "I'm on my way out the door in a minute", and suddenly she wanted to come down and say goodbye and we ended up speaking for a while. I truly believed that she would basically instantly forget about me if I wasn't "in her face" all the time, and what I'm finding is that our contact appears to be very important to her. And without the pressure/pushing from me, it has been much more relaxed, happy contact.

A roughish night tonight. We had a long (2 hour) talk on the phone. She's very concerned about not being able to afford school and being hit with a big tax bill from last year and again feeling "trapped" and that she won't be able to realize her dreams. We're going to redo the divorce agreement so that I give her more money now to help with the taxes and school, but the term of the alimony will be reduced by about a year and a half. She also let me know she could be moving as early as the end of May. She's looking for apartments near where she expects to be going to school. She says she may want the extra couple of months before school to acclimate to a new region. I thought I had 5 months with her, now its 3. Its more and more clear that school, not relationships, are her top priority now. And that's okay, I'd wait for her, and I expect her to emerge from school as a much more complete person. She was upset that I seemed so down over it. I told her that she was someone I loved seeing every day, and that now I was going to see her once a month if I was lucky. Her response was "Don't you think this is hard on me, too?"

She again was telling me how with her going away, I should date other women. I told her I wasn't in any way, shape or form ready to date anyone. She said "Well at least look at them. Be a pig. Just notice them." I assured her that wasn't a problem. I don't know what she's thinking with this, besides the fact that she has stated that if I only consider her a possibility, it puts a lot of pressure on her.

it will be even harder when she goes back to school, especially since she will be living there. i went back to college at 34 years old. being around all those young college students, i felt like a kid again myself! i started dressing younger, acting younger, and hanging out with the kids i was going to school with. a friend of mine who went back to college as well at the same time, who was in her early 40's even partied with the younger kids and hooked up with a guy for awhile who was in his early 20's!

with her maturity level, i think she is going to have a whole new life there around people we who are on the same maturity level she is. don't be too disappointed if she finds a whole new crowd of younger people to hang out with and have fun with. i fear you may end up being a distant memory.

not trying to be mean, but realistic. i know what it was like, after just getting out of a marriage, to go back to college. it was like i was alive again.

what does she plan to major in?

mlhb

She's an education major. She wants to be a teacher. The education is critical to her since her top priority is getting her self-sufficient adult life started. She also has 3 years to go so she's really not looking at being out until she's almost 34. I graduated at 25 and that was tough enough. I have a lot of empathy for her at 30 and you and 34.

She already dresses young and acts young, I don't think that's going to change much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She tends to run with a younger crowd already, which is why I'm not always as close with some of her friends (I fully admit the age gap there is an issue).

I know you're not being mean. There's part of me that just thinks that when she leaves, I should just say goodbye and I'll send you an alimony check once a month, and thanks for the 9 years together. Of course, I know that's the part of me that just got hit with the 3 month shock last night. She insists she won't forget me, that I'm too important, and I just don't know. 90 days is a short time and a long time. I'll have a much better feel for where we are by then. I believe I'll be clearer in my head if I even want to pursue this long distance, or if I just want to be thankful for the distance so I can put her out of my head and move on and if our paths cross again, so be it, or somewhere in between.

why does she have to go out of state to become a teacher. there are teaching colleges all over the place. i live in a very small town and there are 2 within an hour's drive of here.

my first goal was to become a teacher. i subbed for 2 years and loved it. i LOVE teaching. BUT, there are no jobs around here in teaching. so, i got a job in social work and changed my major. at 36 i am in my 3rd year of college and will have a bachelor's in human services. teaching was my dream, but this is a very good fit as well and i believe the path God set me on.

mlhb

I dunno bud, I think this will be "out of sight out of mind". Like Michelle says, your ex will be around a fun, vibrant, young crowd, which will only accentuate your age difference. I doubt that being around all these young people will make her want to reconcile; probably just the opposite.

I firmly believe that she sees you now as a comfortable old shoe, one that she knows she can always count on to bail her out, be it out of loneliness, boredom, or financial issues. Sounds like you are essentially financing her going off to college - so of course she wants to stay on good terms with you.

So, I would take her up on her advice and start dating other women. Well, not right away, you don't want to do that when you are still dreaming of a reunion with your ex. But after she leaves, I would definitely start moving forward, instead of being stuck in the past. And my guess is that these "I'll see you once a month" things will quickly degrade to once a quarter, twice a year, etc. Three years is a very VERY long time to put your life on hold for, while the person you are putting your life on hold for is moving on. Not good.

AGG

mlhb - The schools in Nevada are not nearly as good for education, and there are issues with teaching credentials transferring. And, as I found out (see below), Texas wasn't her first choice. She really wanted to go to school in Boston.

AGG - You could be right...we'll see how it goes. We had another long conversation this morning which I'll relate below, and during it I told her that I expected that in the next 3 years she'll see other people, and that at some point I will, too. And I also told her I didn't expect either of us to be celibate for the next 3 years. As for the financing college...see below, too.

Last night wasn't one of my best sleep nights. This morning, I do some of the math on this change to the alimony, and realize that its going to cost me about $12K and I'm not willing to do that. And I e-mailed her about it (she was still asleep) and when she calls, we get to talking, and I tell her that the reason I believe that I shouldn't do this because I want to see her budget and I'm afraid she's screwing me over on money, attempting to get me to pay her tax bill for her, is because I think she's been hiding things from me, so its hard for me to trust her. So, then we get into a big discussion. She wasn't clear on part of the money issue, and its really not going to cost me as much, if anything in the long run. So, I told her that all as good. She also told me that Texas wasn't even her first choice for school, she really wanted to go to UMass, and realized that there was no way she could afford it (tuition is like twice Texas, plus higher living costs in Boston).

Then we get into the subject of OM. I told her that I thought she wasn't being truthful with me about him. She finally admitted that Valentine's Day was their first date other than as friends (how's that for irony?) and that they also went out to dinner once more that weekend. She also said that she has somewhat of a crush on him, and that she isn't sure if he likes her. I pointed out that since they had gone out twice, I was pretty sure he liked her, plus I knew he had been interested in her for a long time. She said that she didn't think so, that he was an industry guy and that's why he was friendly. I told her she didn't understand men very well if she believed that.

She is interested in going out with him, and also not sure. She knows he has a kid and that she would always come in 2nd to her, and she's not sure if her baggage and his go together. She really isn't sure where its going to go. One of her housing possibilities is splitting a house with him (and perhaps others) although she was clear that she needed her own space. I told her I sort of hoped she would go out with him so she can find out what sort of person he really is. And yes, she wants me to go out with other women so she can feel "safe" going out with other guys. So, she is clearly asking my permission. I told her she didn't need it. Oddly enough, since she was finally honest with me about it, I'm at peace with it. I don't love it, and at least I don't have to make up junk anymore since my head always makes up the worst things. In fact, I was very clear with her that if she remained open and honest with me, things will go much better with us because I won't make up things in my head. I think she's starting to get the concept.

She also admitted she still loves me, and that she really has to find herself now. She wants me to come visit her in Texas, although I told her I might need a break for a couple of months from her. We'll play that by ear. She doesn't want me putting all my eggs her basket, because she's not sure where she stands and what sort of relationships she wants with me or anyone in the future. I understand, and told her that, and told her that I needed a lot of work on myself first. I again said that if I get to the point where I think I'm ready and she still has feelings, I'm not playing for 2nd place, because she's worth everything. I also told her I want to become a source of safety for her, and let her know that I'm like a baby taking his first steps now, and will get better at it every day. I also knew it was a hard conversation for her, and I thanked her for putting up with the trauma for an hour because it would allow me to give her many better hours in the future.

It was a tough conversation for me, too, and honestly, in some ways I feel better about things than I have in a long time. Her being honest and open with me was HUGE and if we can stay that way, I believe everything will be great in the long term. I'm not sure exactly where our paths will go, and if we start from honesty and openness, we get closeness back, and from closeness comes unlimited possibilities.

I take her to the airport at 5:30 AM tomorrow (she's visiting a girlfriend in LA) so I'm almost glad I'm exhausted now. Hopefully I can fall asleep early tonight!

See, this is not the message that I would be sending her, because it again makes you sound like you are her dad, not an ex husband whom she is leaving to discover the great big world.


Again, I think you are not making yourself attractive to her. Who wants to deal with someone like this? People are attracted to confidence, not to someone who is confused, needs help, etc. Note how well she reacted to the little glimmer of toughness or detachment on your part - why go back to being weak? Just something to consider.

AGG

This is from Al Turtle's site, and I'm going to defer to him there. The theory being that people run because they don't feel safe where they are. If you are safe, you have no reason to run. I've mentioned her lack of trust, her in fact using the words she doesn't feel safe with some things. So, I want her to feel safe in the "comfortable telling him anything and in his presence" sense. I understand what you are saying, and I think its just a matter of interpretation.


Interesting point and definitely something to consider. You're right, I may have been saying that more to reassure myself than her. I'm working on very little sleep and it was a stressful conversation and I may have missed the mark with that one.

I definitely scored some points this afternoon. She actually got everything she needed for a scholarship application together (good job by her, she really hustled) however the fax machine at her office was on the fritz. She gave me a panicked call letting me know she had sent me the information and could I please fax it and it had to be there in the next 12 minutes! Well, 5 minutes later I get it printed, at the 9 minute mark the fax goes through. And this from a (thankfully understanding) client's office.

I told her not to worry about dinner tonight, she could probably use a break from me, and she comes back with "I'm just saying I have a lot to do. If I get out of work early we can do something." I have to chuckle internally. Its just another case where I want to give her space and she doesn't want to take it.

And despite my exhaustion (I'm on my 2nd Red Bull of the day, up from my normal total of, well, zero) I still feel better about things than I have in weeks. Seriously, the honesty was a huge step.

i would have made her figure out a way to fax it herself. she is still wayyyy too dependent on you! and you asked a client if you could fax it from their office? nope, i wouldn't have done it.

i feel like you are hanging onto the tiny little crumbs she throws you. if she wanted to be with you she would not be telling you to date other women while she dates other men.

she doesn't sound like she could survive on her own. i think she needs to see what it would be like to try. she just has way too much dependence on you because you have provided that "dad like" presence.

mlhb

mlhb - Given what she had to go through to get the stuff ready in the first place, I was willing to help. I mean, come on...there were 12 minutes until the deadline. Her office doesn't have a working fax machine (a long story that makes me cry) and there wasn't a lot of time to get to a place that might have a fax. In the reverse situation, I would have called her. And I would not have been able to do this with just any client. However this particular client and I are friends, and we do a LOT of business together, and I knew he would understand.

Am I hanging on to crumbs? Maybe, maybe not. I really don't know at this point. That will get proven out over time. And in 3 months or so, she will figure out if she can live on her own. I do think there will be some things that will be a rude awakening for her. I get where you are coming from and I realize that I may be betting on a long shot here, and in the immortal words of Han Solo..."Never tell me the odds." I chose my screen name for a reason, and in my heart, I believe that the universe is not done with us yet. And I keeping true to that belief.

Hmmm, I am probably more with Michelle on this one... I know you feel like you were her hero for saving the day with the fax thing (and you were), but the flipside is that you are enabling her to continue to be dependent on you. So, you are continuing to smooth her next 3 months here, until she moves on, and you stay.

There is the classic concept of detaching with love - that is what I think you'd be better of doing in your situation. Again, conceptually, there is nothing wrong with doing a favor for someone - we all do that. But, I have yet to see any indication of her doing anything for you - and that is not healthy. So, you keep being her savior, and I am sure she counts on that (which is why she pouts if you are not there for her when she wants you).

But in the end, I keep getting the sense that you are indeed accepting her crumbs, which will only make her lose respect for you.

You see, you keep talking about maybe your paths crossing in the future, her being "The Prize" (already not a healthy mindset, IMO) - but, none of those are likely to make her want you. If you really want to impress her before she goes, I'd stop accepting crumbs and show her that you can be her friend (which is different than doormat), but that you also have a backbone and a life.

In a way, the more favors you do for her, no matter how much they save her, the less respect she'll have for you, because, like it or not, she will see you as a doormat. I think you have a great chance of getting her to fall in love with you, but first she must respect you - and for that, you should detach.

Anyway, just some thoughts...

AGG

AGG - No argument. My point was that if any friend had called me with 12 minutes to the deadline, I would have done the same thing. And I also agree that showing my independence and backbone is important. In fact, during the long talk this morning I said a few things about friendship being a 2 way street (and was thinking of you at the time). She's going away for the weekend, and frankly I'm happy to have the free time to myself. I'm not sure what I'm going to do (except work...ugh) and at least I get to script it for myself.

And yes, I also know I have a lot of work to do before I get into a healthy mindset about the entire situation, including the detaching. And I do work on it every day. Part of the reason I post so much is that I greatly appreciate the feedback. It may not always seem this way, and I don't discount anything I read hear. I may not always agree with it, and I do keep it in mind in terms of thinking about what I want to do.

And that is why I keep posting to you - I don't normally post to folks who only want validation for their plans, nor to those who blindly follow what they are told. I see that you are processing all the feedback, and picking and choosing what to apply. And I respect that. I am rooting for ya, bud.

AGG

agg, you keep agreeing with me! this must be some sort of a record for us. maybe in my older age here i am becoming a stick in the mud (God help me no)..

anyway, i am rooting for you too eye, and most other posters by this point would have frustrated the h*ll out of me. i am rooting that you get strong, and that you move on with your life. i think you will eventually get fed up with her fence sitting and her keeping you as the fall back guy. you are going to want more than that eventually and you DESERVE MORE THAN THAT.

mlhb

michelle - You may be right. In some ways, I'm looking forward to her moving out so I can see what life is like without her around all the time, and if it is only her proximity that causes the strong feelings, or if it is really her. She is in a huge internal struggle now, not with me and the guy in Texas or anything like that, with where she is going in life. She's figuring out who she is now, and I don't think either of us know how we fit together long term. As I've said, I've seen the woman she can be underneath come out many times, only to fall back under the weight of all her baggage. I'm hopeful that she can cast off the baggage (or most of it) over the next few years. Am I going to sit on the sidelines of my life and just wait three years for her? Of course not, even though some posts may sound that way. However, is she always going to be a contender for my love? Definitely. And without a handy dandy crystal ball, I don't know how it will end up. I'll keep doing that work on myself, I'll see what work she does on herself, and I'll keep working (and hopefully she will, too) on improving our communications. There are no guarantees on anything.

AGG - I'll clarify my screen name a bit. My "Prize" is a happy, healthy, stable, fulfilling relationship, and not necessarily with my ex. Is she my first choice at this point? Absolutely, because we are so close to each other and because we had a lot of very good times and because we still love each other. Is she my only choice? Well, as of today there is no one else, and who knows whether or not there will be in 3 months or 6 months or 3 years?

She's out of town visiting a girlfriend this weekend, so I'm fairly certain this will be a drama free weekend. I plan to get to the gym, maybe catch a GA meeting or two, catch up on some work, possibly hang out with some friends, and just look out for myself for a few days.

I know, this is scary... Maybe I am becoming too laid back in my old age, yikes.. Next thing you know, cats are sleeping with the dogs, pigs are flying, and the world as we know it goes to pot...

OK, let's make a deal - we will limit our agreements to Eye's thread only, deal? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Ironically, my chihuahua puppy and one of my cats sleep together in the bed with me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, you guys are going to be (at least semi) proud of me this time. So much for drama free. She calls me that the COBRA administrator from my insurance had finally returned a call and that she had to have the form in today and there was no way she could do it from downtown LA. She asked me if I could follow up for her. I told her I wasn't sure I had the time to do it today, which prompted a "Well, I guess I just won't have insurance" response. I eventually agreed that I would call the woman to find out what was up, however not after telling her that it was a major inconvenience to my work day and that it wasn't my responsibility.

And the clincher...I called the woman and the form really isn't due today. There was part of me that wanted to fill it out for her anyway, just out of habit, and I instead just texted her that I had spoken to the woman and that the form wasn't due today. She can handle this herself.

She was definitely taken aback that I took the attitude I did. Good.

Good work!

AGG

Yay! Good for you! Much more attractive!

Really? That is totally counter-intuitive to me. In my mind, she gets pissed off that I wouldn't help her out. Although I guess I did help her out a bit, and just made her aware that it was an imposition on me.

Can you explain why its more attractive? I am really struggling with this.

It's counterintuitive to you becasue you think that her getting pissed means you are doing something wrong. And that is not the case. You see, over the past nine years you created patterns - the way I see them, the pattern is that you were her dad, always looking out for her, protecting her, ready to catch her when she falls. And now, even after the divorce, you are maintaining that pattern. So, she likes the pattern, which is why she gets pissed when you break it - but she does not respect you. Does that make sense?

So, when you break the pattern, she initially gets pissed - how dare you not be there for her under her thumb?? But, the reality is that when you continue to show her that you are not under her thumb, she will actually respect and appreciate you, something that she does not do now.

She takes you for granted now - so you keep the peace, but she doesn't respect you. Let her get pissed, but in the long run, she'll respect you more when you show her that you are not her slave/dad/errand boy.

AGG

AGG - Thanks...that makes a lot more sense now. I really appreciate that posting.

yes agg, we must keep it to this thread only lest people think that i am getting soft and digressing to being in so much agreement with a known stick in the mud <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

HA!

oh eye, you are taking baby steps, it is better than nothing. i wouldn't have called for her though. that comment of hers "well i guess i won't have insurance than" i would have nicely said, "no, i guess you won't if you don't get this taken care of. let me know how you make out" she said that just to make you feel guilty so you would do it for her. it is called MANIPULATION and she seems to be a master of it.

mlhb

Agreed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />.


Yeah, or an even more effective tool I learned when dealing with a manipulator:

her: "well i guess i won't have insurance"
you: " I guess..."

AGG

Oh, I totally knew the "I guess I won't have insurance" comment was a guilt thing. I'm Jewish...I know guilt when I see it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If I had known the deadline for getting in the paperwork really wasn't today, I wouldn't have called for her. However, much like the "12 minutes to go" deal from yesterday, its something I would have done for any friend. My text message to her was pretty terse, because I was annoyed that she created this deadline out of thin air, and she hasn't responded, which doesn't shock me. Let her pout if she needs to.

AGG - You posted as I was posting. I eventually got to that point with my mom (a classic martyr)..."I guess I'll have to do the dishes myself." "Knock yourself out, mom."

Frankly, I took a little pity because I knew she was sitting with her best friend, who is also a friend of mine, and really didn't want to start an argument in front of her.

And yet you married someone just like her, tsk tsk tsk <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Again, it takes two to have an argument but only one to end it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. The minute you start with the "yeah, hmm, uh-huh" responses, the argument ends <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

BTW, if you need someone to go knock some sense into her while she's in LA, just let me know <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Good Shabbos!

AGG

oohhh... good idea! agg can pull his stick out of the mud and smak her around a bit! yes!

mlhb

shabbos?

what the heck does that mean?
don't be talking jewish code talk now... i'm a baptist, i don't get it. i'll thump you both with my new testament bible if you start doing that.

mlhb

Hello everyone not really sure am new here. I just got married well we will have been married 1 yr this July. And I've known him on and off for almost 23 yrs. but never in all that time did he act the way is does now. See he's very absuive towards me two days ago he held a gun to my head asked me if I wanted to die and threw me on the floor later on that night I was able to leave and I took myself to the er everyone there was so wonderful to me. Though I did'nt press charges but the police told me that I would have 11 months and 29 days if I wanted to press charges myself. At last he did come to get most of his clothes with his friend and I told him that he is'nt welcome here anymore or else I would press charges. Did I do the right thing he also drinks alot. Right now am confused not sure if am heading down the right road. When I've said in the past to him that he needed to go get help he says he does'nt have a problem. So any advice for me would be great because am not sure if I did the right thing?????

I didn't notice how much she was like my mom when we first started dating, and over the years its creepy how much they have in common personality wise. Interestingly, neither one of them wants to admit that.

She'll be in Burbank, and Little Tokyo and doing karaoke somewhere tonight or tomorrow. I'll see if I can find out where so you can do your sense-knocking.

Shabbos = Sabbath

Because its me, I'll give the long explanation. Sabbath in Hebrew is "Shabbat", except in one dialect where the "at" is pronounced as "os" and it becomes "Shabbos."

Stacy - This is a VERY serious issue. I'm probably not the best one to comment on it. I would suggest that you start a new thread for this issue. Others might have a suggestion as to the best place for that thread.

I know, I thought it was brilliant too!

AGG

Yup.. Or we can really throw Michelle for a loop by saying Shabbat Shalom... Oh, this is fun, the possibilities are endless!!

AGG

Stacy, this is way WAY beyond MB territory, you are dealing with a total psycho. MB isn't going to help you with his issues.

I am sure you did the right thing - Married less than a year, no kids (I assume) - lock the doors, divorce him as fast as you can, and count your blessings. I realize how awful this must be for you, I am truly sorry.

AGG

thanks agg and eye...
no having fun with me! all these jewish terms, what the heck! the blonde can't take it!

this thread is turning into a bad joke..
2 jews and a baptist walk into a bar....
haha

mlhb

Wow...I have to listen to you guys more often. I'm expecting a nice relaxing evening at home, and out of the blue the ex calls to thank me for following up with the insurance woman and to tell me about her day. I was 100% not expecting to hear from her this weekend since I wasn't planning to call her. I know how important it is for her to have her space. We only talked for a few minutes (she's tired, I'm tired, we've both been up since before 5 AM) and I am seriously shocked that a) she called at all, and b) that she actually thanked me for what I did after I was short with her. This makes me rethink my whole life...well, maybe not my whole life, but at least this whole "being a pushover" thing.

when you stand up for yourself and make HER do HER stuff HERSELF, well, i think it scares her. i am sure she is thinking that she is going to "lose" you if she doesn't play nice.

not sure if i worded that right. let me see...
personally, my opinion is i think you should move on. i think she is a user and a manipulator honestly. i think she has had you right where she wants you for many years. she knows you don't want to lose her and she takes advantage of that. i am thinking she is thinking that you are getting tired of her crap and by standing up and making her do the things she is responsible for herself, that she is getting scared. she doesn't want to lose you as her fall back guy so i do believe that as you stand up for yourself and have a back bone she is going to kiss your a** so that you will still be there for her. i don't see it as her "coming around" because personally, i don't think she will. i think she will use you and manipulate you as long as she can and when she can't anymore, i think she's going to be gone to find another man she can do that too.

so, i definitely think you need to have the backbone and make her live her own life and not depend on you AT ALL FOR ANYTHING PERIOD. don't do this for HER, do it for YOU, so that you can start to detach from her and really work on you and with moving on with your life. do NOT be surprised if after a while of doing this she starts pulling away when she sees her manipulation is not working anymore.

mlhb

you also keep saying that some of the things you are doing for her are things you would do for "any friend that needed something".

well, i don't think she is just any friend. she is a "friend" who has been using and manipulating. any friend that you had had doing that to you for all these years i don't think you would probably choose to even have as a friend anymore. and i am sure a friend like that you would not do anything for.

keep it in perspective. she is NOT like any other friend.

mlhb

Michelle,

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware of how you feel about her. And I'm fully aware you may be right. And, I'm also fully aware you may be wrong. I will find out for myself over the coming months.

Let's be clear on one thing, too. No one can be used of manipulated by another person unless they choose to be used or manipulated. While I am quite aware of her using/manipulating behavior, she has generally brought enough to the table that I have allowed it. I stated in the beginning that there were issues from both sides that contributed to the D. They certainly weren't all mine, and her manipulation was one of them.

You want me to change and grow for me, and I want to do that, yet you seem to discount the possibility that she might change, too. I don't know if this is colored by your experiences with your WH, or just a gut feeling, or something else. However, I am already seeing changes in a lot that she is doing and I do think she's slowly changing. Now, whether there will be enough change for me to want a future with her, or whether we will even like the people we become after these changes is impossible to predict at this point. However, I'm not going to give up a month into the process just because she hasn't become a perfect person yet. I'm far from where I want myself to be, why would I expect her to have arrived already, too?

I had a bunch more written, and I'm deleting it, because I don't think I was making a point very well in it. I'll sum up by saying that the best feedback I can get is constructive criticism as to actions I have undertaken or am proposing to undertake, not guessing what she might or might not do in the future. The future is unwritten.

that is fair enough.

my feedback is coming from the experiences i have had with manipulative WOMEN who have been in my life in one form or another, not from my exh believe it or not.

i am a woman and i know quite well how we think and function.

you are getting this from my woman's point of view.

mlhb

Okay, here's a for instance where I could use some feedback. My Southwest "DING" just came up with a $35 each way fare from Las Vegas to Tucson in May, after tax season for me and after she wraps up her finals for this semester. Now, we have been talking about going to Tucson to see the cacti down there. I love cacti, although she's even more fanatic about it (in fact, today she's going to a cactus garden in LA with her friends...you can spy on her there, AGG. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) I realize I don't want to just go ahead and book tickets without asking her. Frankly, that's manipulative on my part. The question is whether or not its even a good idea to propose it to her in the first place (i.e., "Hey, there's a great deal to Tucson. Wanna go down for a couple of days and wander through cacti?") And certainly I wouldn't offer to pay her airfare, although my first instinct is to say I'd cover the hotel room/rental car, because if I went on my own I'd have to pay these costs anyway. And I don't think its a good idea to just book it for myself, because its something I'd enjoy doing with her (assuming she wanted to go) and I wouldn't to "assert my independence" and exclude her from the experience and just book a ticket for myself when this great fare disappears in 12 hours. Now, if she said "no, I'm not interested", I still might book it for myself and "assert my independence" that way, however I might choose a slightly different agenda while I'm there.

Just curious what people think about this idea. And, given that its 10 weeks in the future, I realize that there's absolutely no way of knowing if we'll have fallen passionately in love again by then, or if we won't be able to stand the sight of each other (although I suspect it will be somewhere between those two extremes).

It turns out that one of my employees and also an employee of my biggest client have very similar backgrounds to my XW. Either that means its more common than I thought, or I just have a knack for attracting that sort of person into my life. Anyway, these two women have provided me very valuable feedback because they can relate to her in a way that does not come to me naturally. Its also helping me understand them better.

While I understand that you know how women think better than I ever will, if you or the women you have encountered don't have her background, there are definitely going to be differences in the patterns. I guess that's why I'm not asking for predictions on her behavior. For instance, if Guy #1 tells me "Geez, my mom was a classic martyr, too, and here's how that affected my relationships with women", that's much more valuable to me than Guy #2 who says "Don't be a wuss. Just go out and find some other broad." Guy #2 doesn't understand what's going in my head. Guy #1's perspective is much more useful to me. Now, Guy #2 may have some great ideas, and I'm going to listen to him, I'm just going to filter him differently.

Hopefully that's more clear. And, btw, I really don't know all of your background. If you come from a background of abandonment, your words will mean more to me, too. However, what I've observed before is that your background and thought processes are very different than hers. I understand her thought processes a lot better than I did in the past, I'm just trying to learn how to deal with them in a more productive way, and whether dealing with them in a more productive way is worth the effort.

well, i will answer a few things for you.
first off, i would NOT ask her about a trip that is at least 10 weeks in the future. there is no way she can give you an answer on that right now seeing she will be away, with you out of site out of mind, for that length of time. who knows who she will have in her life at that stage of the game. you asking her to go with you is your way of hanging on to her and giving you a false sense of security. she says yes, she wants to go, and you will automatically think, "well, good, at least i know she will be in my life until at least that point". i think it is a bad idea to ask her.

now, i WOULD book it for myself. go for it! that is a great flight deal. i did a lot of flying this last year and a half going to see exbf. that is one good darn deal. it is something you have wanted to do, so, DO IT. don't even think twice.

as far as my background goes, i grew up with an alcoholic father who had many affairs on my mother. i remember living a life of walking on eggshells and fearing saying a word. my background gives me a problem in enforcing boundaries. when i did try to enforce boundaries, ie, i remember giving my father info on alcoholism and begging him to get help, etc. he got so mad at me he did not talk to me for weeks. i was only a kid at the time. this type of behavior showed me that if i tried to enforce boundaries, people would leave me. i an still working on being strong enough to say "if i have boundaries and i enforce them, and the person in my life leaves then they didn't belong there to begin with. that says they do not respect me or my feelings". my parents slept in different rooms from the time i was probably 11 til they finally divorced when i was around 16. they lived separate lives, had separate bills and bank accounts. and guess what? the same exact things ended up happening in my marriage.

i married someone who was literally abandoned by his bio father only to years later try to find a place in his life again. my ex was VERY manipulative. my ex is almost a male version of yours in some of the things he did and said. my ex does what is best for him period. he calls it survival.
i begged him to get counseling for years. we went to 2 different marriage counselors who both said he needed extensive individual counseling. he refused. there comes a point in time where you must take responsibility for you OWN life and stop blaming your past and your upbringing on it. we are adults who choose how we live and how we treat people, period. we either learn from things or we repeat them.

ironically, for some reason, i do find that i seem to attract men who cheat. that is something i need to work on, and i completely believe it is because i have always had trouble enforcing boundaries. once i love someone, i don't want them to leave, so i fear if i enforce my boundaries, they will. i'm growing in this area though and getting better. it is a process.

mlhb

Michelle,

As for 10 weeks in the future, there is no "out of sight, out of mind." She will (unless something drastically changes) be living in the house at the time. He scheduled move to Texas would be sometime (anywhere from 2 weeks to a month or so) after the proposed trip.

Thanks for the background. Very informative. I always thought I came from a "normal" background and, as I've learned, "normal" is a relative term. My parents have been married 52 years, which is another reason that the divorce is hard on me, as I feel like I've let them down in some ways. This is very typical for me. As I've mentioned, I grew up with a terrible self-image, because I never felt what I was doing was good enough. For instance, I am probably the smartest of the three children, however because of my undiagnosed ADD (hey, it was the 60s and 70s), my grades never reflected it. I've also been overweight much of my life. I got a constant "You're so smart, why don't you do better?" and "You're such a good looking guy under all that weight" and similar comment from (mostly) my mother. These were comments made out of love, however I trace my "not important" status back to when I was 2 and my little brother was born. My mom had serious back problems during the pregnancy, and so after he was born, she was confined to bed for some time. So, as a 2 year old, I don't even drop from #1 to #2 on the attention getting scale, I drop to #3. How devastating! And I was constantly compared to my sister, who was a workaholic and got great grades. At any rate, as smart and talented as I was, I grew up not believing in myself, and not trusting anyone else. I basically lived my life waiting for the other shoe to drop.

My mom is very smart and creative, and has always had a career. She is also a huge martyr/manipulator. Frankly, one of the reasons I live 2,000 miles from my parents is that even at age 46, she still wants to run my life. And yet, I ended up with a woman much like her. My dad was always the more passive one in the relationship. He didn't do a lot with the kids. It wasn't that he didn't love us, he loves us very much, he just didn't always show it in the most effective ways. However, we always had a roof over our head, we always had food, we always had money in an emergency, and he was always there for us, he just wasn't generally good at showing affection....does any of this sound familiar to you?

Even though they have been married 52 years, my parents relationship has had its ups and downs. They argue sometimes, they get frustrated with each other, yet they have some very core values and beliefs that keep them together and keep the relationship strong. Interestingly, though, my mom is talking about them getting some counseling soon, and my dad is 78 and she's 72. He's been sick a lot recently, in and out of the hospital, and being his caretaker has taken a big toll on my mom. Of course, being my mom, she will give and give of herself even when it hurts her...again, does this sound familiar?

In early posts I've talked about how my XW is run by her fear of abandonment. In fact, there have been parts of her trying to create this split for years, and the fact that I wouldn't leave I'm sure messed with her beliefs. Even now it does. She did perhaps the worst things she could do to me (the A a few years ago, the D now) and yet I stuck around and kept loving her. Now, I certainly haven't always done it in effective ways, and I know that the fact that even now, I'm still around and still loving her, really messes with her internal beliefs. And I'm not sorry about that. I think the only way she will get past some of these is if someone actually believes in her and doesn't abandon her and, more importantly, that she can internalize this. Its why I've been patient with her, and continue to be patient with her. I realize its not my job (or even within my ability) to "save" her, and I love her and want her to have a great life. Had I realized where I was being ineffective in the past, we might be in a different spot now. And, that just is what it is. However, that doesn't mean its too late to get things on the right track. Despite her fear of abandonment, she hasn't run yet. She is doing what she can to stand on her feet and be self-sufficient. Yet the very prospect of that absolutely terrifies her, because to her, self-sufficient also means "alone." She doesn't want to depend on anyone because she'll just get abandoned in the long run anyway. Would some IC help her on this? I think so, and I'll still encourage her to get it, and she has to make that decision on her own.

I believe that she "uses and manipulates" me because in her core beliefs, its only a matter of time until I abandon her anyway, so why bother? And I'm aware of this, and have let her get away with it, perhaps too much. I am realizing that enforcing boundaries is critical here. This is why when I see "little cracks in the ice", its so important to me. They seem small, and they are different than what she has done for a long time, and it tells me that she is seeing things differently, she just isn't sure how to react. It may be that the ice refreezes, it may be that it thaws completely. I'm just trying out the best way to bring the heat. And also how to do it without burning myself badly.

Hi, EOP, I look forward to going through your thread, thanks for the invite. You asked me about my perspective when I was 30 married to a 36 year old. I didn't see it as an obstacle we couldn't get past <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It does make it more difficult to get both of our input into decisions, as he has more experience in some things than I do, so he doesn't value my opinion as being as equal. But I see that happen with folks the same age, too. Also, at the time I would have liked to have a third child, but he said he was too old to have another, but that's probably a personal thing. As I read up here, I'll probably think of some other things.

ears - 30 and 46, right? Not 30 and 36. Looks like you two got married at 22/38. We got married at 22/39 (12 days later it was 23/39), so right about the same age.

Thanks for coming by!

I agree 100%. Eye, this would in fact be the right thing to do for someone in your shoes. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to being her dad/servant, but this is exactly what a normal healthy single guy should do. Book the flight, take the trip, and enjoy. She is her own person, a single woman, and the sooner you start treating her as such, the better.

OK, I am off to the cactus exhibit...

AGG

I'm almost certainly going myself. Just reading the brochures gave me an "I want to do this" feeling. So, its not dependent on her going. I'm just wondering if it makes sense to ask her to go, too, since she would likely enjoy it as well. Like I said, its not a free ride for her, and it would be something nice to do together.

Maybe you can tell her in a few weeks and see if she wants to go too. That way it won't look like you are structuring your life around her.

AGG

Yeah, I thought about that...then comes the "Well, why didn't you tell me about the good fare" question? "Uh, because I wasn't giving a darn about you at the time? That's really my only dilemma.

She doesn't need to know about your fare.

AGG

Okay, I think I've got how I want to word it. I'm going to send a text that says "I'm going to Tucson in May to see the cacti. Ding! has a great fare. If you're interested in coming along, give me a call." That way she knows its not dependent on her and that she'd only be going by invitation and there's no grief over not having told her about the good fare. If she wants to take time to make up her mind, missing the good fare is her problem and she can't put it back on me. Well, she can, it just won't be valid. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hmm, I think it's OK except for this part: "If you're interested in coming along, give me a call." I'd take that part out.

The reason being is that she knows full well that if she wants to tag along she can call you and ask. Conversely, as written, it feels to me like you are still asking her to go with you. You should be building a distance with her, not closeness, just like she is doing with you. Did she invite you to go to LA with her this weekend?

AGG

No,she didn't invite me, and I didn't expect it, since it was a "girl's weekend." Even when we were married, it isn't the sort of weekend where she'd invite me along (or where I'd be that interested in going along). Conversely, this is the type of trip we would have liked to do together. I get what you're saying about building distance, not closeness. However, I still would like to do this with her. I think the experience would be enhanced by doing it together. And yeah, there is that part of me that is still afraid of offending her by not inviting her along and/or that it will across as rubbing it in her face. And you're right, all she has to do is ask. Its not like I'm saying "You can't go...ha! ha! ha!"

I dunno, I haven't sent anything yet. And I checked, and the fare and dates I want are still there.

Well, here's how it finished off. I spoke to Al Turtle, who gave me ways how to approach it with her. I told her about the deal and that I was going to be going and thought she'd enjoy it, too, and if she had to say "no", then that was okay. She doesn't think she can afford it, and I resisted my natural urge to say "Well, I'll buy the ticket for you" or even "Well, I'll buy the ticket now and you can pay me back later." I just said I was sorry she couldn't make it and that I was going to go anyway. She then was upset that people were "dangling" trips she couldn't afford in front of her (apparently, her business partner told her he's going to Japan again). I told her how I understood how it could come across as dangling to her, and that it wasn't my intention to dangle. I also let her know that it was an open invitation, and she was welcome to change her mind later, although she probably wouldn't be able to get as good a fare.

She did say the Tucson trip sounded like a lot of fun. She then mentioned another event to which I'm going which she also wants to attend, and again she said that money as too tight for her to afford 1/2 a hotel room. Now, for this one I told her that if I was going (I haven't made up my mind yet), then I'd have to pay for a hotel room anyway, so if she pitched in 1/2 on the gas, she was welcome to come along. She's still not sure. Now, some of you may think that making the offer was letting her manipulate me, and the truth is I would have to pay for a hotel anyway, so its not like it costs me more to have her there.

Its clear that she is not thrilled by my growing independence, and she is feeling the pinch of not having total access to me anymore. How she ultimately reacts to it is, of course, the $64,000 question.

And yes, I have booked my airfare (a whopping $90 RT with taxes), rental car and hotel for Tucson, so I'm set. I really do hope she changes her mind, I know its something she'd love, and if she doesn't, its her loss, not mine. I'll enjoy myself in any case.

EOP, you spoke with Al Turtle? How cool! I've got to start following along, if nothing else to learn from what he tells you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're right, 30 and 46. When we got married, I was 21 (a few months from 22) and pregnant, and he was 38. I really had had enough with the dating scene and was ready to start a family. I came from an unhappy family, and wanted to redo it right with someone who felt that way, too.

I've been e-mailing back and forth with Al for several days. I may do some phone counseling with him, too. His site makes huge sense to me, its a great source of strength to me now, as is Al himself. I'm still upset about the trip. Yes, I want to go for me, and even more I want us to go together. She even said it was something she would enjoy, so its not like I'd be dragging her there. The good side is there's time for her to change her mind, and there's still a good fare available (a whopping $30 more than what I paid). Heck, if she even said "Eyes, can you front me the money for the ticket and I'll pay you back $25/month", that would be fine. I just don't want to push her. Pushing drives her away.

oh no you won't front her the money!
stand strong eyes! in real life if she wants to do something like take a trip she is not going to have someone there to front her the money, she will have to be a big girl and save it up herself to go.

"i feel like all these trips are being dangled in front of me and i can't afford to go"

another classic manipulative line. just like "well then i guess i won't have insurance"
manipulation seems to come all too naturally to her. that will take years to change if she even wants to change that part of herself.

you said in an earlier post that you have low self esteem from your growing up, weight issues, etc...
do you feel like if you lose this girl you won't find anyone else? i am thinking for someone with low self esteem it must have been quite the ego boost for a late 30 something to be getting attention from a young 20 something. must have made you feel attractive and like "one of the guys".
build up that self esteem and realize you will not be alone. she is NOT the only woman in the sea. And, maybe start hitting the gym or something if your physique is bothering you.

see what i am saying?

mlhb

EOTP, it seems to me the biggest problem is your seemingly sole focus in getting your "prize" back.

No matter what you do your EX is first and foremost in your thoughts and plans. All that you do is designed to make yourself attractive to your ex. When will you try to move away from her and truly focus on what you need to do to be a complete and happy person on your own?

I get that you want her back, who wouldn't after all that's appeared on this thread. But take a HUGE step back from this and REALLY focus on you in a serious way without your ex factoring into your plans.

This is truly painful to watch.

Here's what I picture: Your ex decides going away is too difficult for her so she stays for the safety you offer her. In the future, who knows when, she again begins to feel she needs to find herself and you're in the same position you are now except you've already been divorced. Wasted time never to be gained back.

Actually, at this point I don't really believe that there is any woman I couldn't get. I just don't want most of them. I did a lot of work on myself about a decade ago to get past much of my self-esteem issue. Now, I'll fully admit that my defenses took a huge battering with the divorce (I was talking about this with my counselor last week) and they are slowly rebuilding themselves. And yeah, I'll also admit it was an ego boost when I met her. I think even the bigger boost was that I was dating several women at the time, and my XW was determined to stand out from the pack.

The problem for me is that most people bore me. I talked earlier about how the roller coaster ride is "part of the fun." And while I don't necessarily want one as extreme as the one I've been on for nine years, I sure as heck don't want boring. My sister had a terrible relationship with her first husband, they fought all the time, yelling and screaming. Way past what my XW and I ever did. They had a pretty ugly divorce and still only have a relationship because of the kids. Her 2nd husband, while a nice guy, was clearly settling for her. He doesn't really challenge her, he's a lax dad, not ambitious. I definitely don't want to end up with someone like that the 2nd time around. And, because I know I'm not ready to date anyone yet, I guess I haven't even started looking for these "interesting" women yet.

As for my weight issues, I've dropped over 75 lbs since July and am just 25 lbs from my goal weight. Its the thinnest I've been since high school or early college. I hit the gym regularly, although in a massive Catch-22, I haven't hit it as much since the divorce, even though I know that going will help me feel better. I know I'm going later today, and I want to get back to the 3-5 times per week I was going. Not for her, for me.

Nams, thanks for the reply. I'm going to mostly focus on the last paragraph. I will say that this is the absolute last thing I want to happen. I've already told her that there is no way I will ask her to stay here and not to off to school. That doesn't mean that I don't want her to stay, and that doesn't mean that there isn't a big part of her that wants to stay (why would she be afraid of me asking if she knew she was going to say 'no' anyway?). Its just that if she stays, I suspect that the scenario you're describing is exactly what happens.

So, yeah, a lot of my focus is on her right now, although its also on me. All of the reading and exercises (mental and physical) I'm doing will benefit me in the long run whether its with her or someone else. However, I've got about a 90 day window before she moves 1,000+ miles away and it becomes much harder to build a strong relationship with her. So, for these 90 days, she will be a primary focus. Once she's out of state and not in my face every day, it will be easier to focus 100% on me.

Speaking of focusing 100% on me, I think I'm taking a break for a few days from the forums. You guys have overall been great, and every time I come here I end up focusing on her more than me, and its draining me. I just want a few days to focus on me, my work, my fun, and then check up on things here. OCD isn't all its cracked up to be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> When I get into this "have to check the boards every hour" mode, it really slows me down.

I thought about a lot of things this morning, and from feedback I've gotten on this and other boards and from a friend of hers and from my XW, have decided to do things differently. I just sent my ex an e-mail telling her that I wanted to cut our contact down to a minimum. Basically, I said that I would let her control the level of contact, so she could get whatever space she needed. I won't ask her about trips that could potentially make her uncomfortable, I won't get her gifts, I won't ask her out to lunch/dinner/shopping/whatever. I told her she knows where to find me if she needs me.

I was clear that it didn't change my feelings, however I realized that working on the relationship seems to be a very low priority for her right now, and my attempts to do so were just appearing to cause a lot of stress for both of us. I also told her that I would be there to help her out if she asked for it, and again, that was up to her.

Its just too much stress on me otherwise. I hate doing this, and right now I think its the only way I can maintain my sanity. I let her know that I was open to discussing this, and I am, because I think that she'll find what I'm saying to be too extreme, and its just going to be a matter of her telling me where to set the boundaries, and not me guessing where they are and then crossing them all the time. I don’t know how this fits in to getting her back, because that’s still what I want, and oddly enough, I think it’s a step in the right direction. I think giving her the space she needs and setting the boundaries will actually make it easier to become a source of safety to her in the long run.

On an unrelated note, as time goes by, I think I HUGELY overestimated the impact of OM in Texas. As an example, I know she didn't contact him at all over the weekend when she was away, at least not by phone. She was just trying to have a nice weekend with her girlfriend and without the world intruding. In fact, I'm beginning to believe that her contact with him is on a semi-infrequent basis. I really do think that there is just too much on her plate right now for her to worry about a relationship with him or me or anyone at this point. When she asked for the divorce, she said it was so she could grow up and become independent. Her actions back this up.

So, have I given up? No, definitely not. However, I just opened my eyes and realized that my methods were not working. This requires a totally different approach.

My business partner and his wife invited me out to dinner with them and a female friend next weekend. While I'm not interested in a date (I'm nowhere near ready for that), I'm going to take them up on it. It will be nice to just be out with other people for a change and not worry about her approval.

As for the Tucson trip, if she wants to go, I'd be more than happy to have her go. And that's going to be her choice. And if she's upset that I go without her, well maybe that tells her something about herself and her feelings.

And its still tough and still sucks.

Eye, I don't mean to hit you when you're down, but talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater... "I want a divorce so I can grow up"? WTF? I really don't mean to cause you any more pain, but I agree with mlhb - your ex sounds like a world class passive aggressive manipulator.

I am sure that you will hear from her in no time, blaming you for your "new" behavior.. Let's see if she proves me wrong.

AGG

Let me clarify that. She felt that at age 30, she was trapped. She doesn't yet have her bachelors degree, her company is run by a terrible businessman (and as he's the majority owner, he makes all the rules), and I am becoming successful and she felt that all she would every be is a shadow of mine. Plus, she sees friends of hers becoming successful and starting families, and I believe that since she believed I would never change, didn't see a way to achieve happiness within the marriage. She's looking to become independent and self-reliant. And, to her credit, she took on the divorce, she's taken on negotiating a way out of her business, she's taken on applying to college and getting ready for a move to another state and really is working on getting her internal house in order. My pressure, real or perceived, to work on the relationship and keep my feelings fresh in her mind were quite possibly hurting her progress and mine.

And yes, I expect her to come to me saying that she doesn't want to cut off contact that much and that she still wants me to be in her life. The difference is I'm going to let her set those boundaries (assuming that they are acceptable to me, too) instead of just guessing where they should be. As for "blaming" me, I don't know how that will come down. We'll see.

Oh...ironically, she often has accused me of being passive aggressive (and I am...thanks, Mom!). Interestingly, she hasn't said this recently, as its pretty much dropped out of my repertoire. However, she is very passive aggressive and does not recognize it within herself. Since the only times I ever brought up the issue were in anger, I don't think that helped her in recognizing it, either. Its not a good trait of hers, and its one that, if she doesn't recognize it and do something about it, as I'm doing for myself, would likely preclude a future relationship and is also likely to sabotage any of her future relationships.

Also, when I talk about a future relationship with her, if it is serious, you can bet your sweet butt that there will be couples counseling involved from the beginning. I have no intention of going through this drama again.

Well, she called and was upset by the e-mail, telling her it wasn't what she wanted and that it was adding to her stress level, not reducing it. We're going to discuss it later. What I'm attempting to do is get her to define her boundaries. If she says "I want to have dinner once or twice a week", then I won't bug her three times a week. If she says "I want to talk to you every day, but not for more than 15 minutes", then I won't stick around for 1/2 hour.

AGG - She did not blame me for anything, just said I wasn't understanding (hmm...maybe that is blaming). I really felt like saying "DUH! Of course I'm not understanding, because you're not giving me the direction I need! If I knew how to do this, we wouldn't be where we are!" So, we'll see how the talk goes. Right now I feel like I'm going onto a basketball court and finding out that they put the ice down for hockey. If I know that its going to hockey night, then I can wear skates and pads.

Hmm, maybe. But I find it unsettling to see someone take the route of divorce when they feel unhappy, but maybe that's just me. I would be VERY hesitant to consider a future with someone who has demonstrated that that is how they approach marriage (get out when the going gets tough) - my ex was like that, I don't need that crap again. I'm not a masochist <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.


Yeah, but I still don't like it that you are letting her call all the shots. That is exactly where she wants you, and I think you are missing the mark by letting her do that. Just because she says she wants more contact, doesn't mean that you need to tailor it to what she wants. Why not do what YOU want?

AGG

agg i could not agree more.
i read that last post of eyes and see still that it is all about HER. what SHE wants, HER boundaries, etc.
what SHE wants is eyes at her beck and call and yet to live her own life. do what she wants to do and yet expect eyes to drop everything and be at her beck and call when needed and then pout and manipulate when she is not.

eyes, don't you see that?

at this point, i almost can't wait for this girl to move away to college so you can move on with your life!

once you start getting out and doing things for yourself and put her at the farthest part of your mind, you will see how good life can be.

from our vantage point, she is still got you pretty much where she wants you. i do see you making SOME baby steps but she is still controlling this ship right now.

if she TRULY loved you, she would not have gotten a divorce from you. she would have acted like a grown up and worked through any issues the two of you had, TOGETHER. she chose to take the easy way out.

mlhb

i think when she goes away to college, you will need to go to a plan B of sorts (not sure you can plan B when you are already divorced but....)

give her a letter laying out what you expect from her in order for a future together, and except no contact from her until she does. trust me, no contact is being kind to yourself. it makes it MUCH easier to move on and stop focusing on her.
I finally went no contact with exbf a while back and i will tell you, it is a blessing. i hardly think about him at all anymore, i can move on with my life, and i don't hurt anymore. continued contact, even in just a brief phone call, kept me in that picture and that was not healthy or good for me at all. nor is it for you.

mlhb

First of all, it is about her boundaries, because she is having the problems setting boundaries, not me. Her boundaries are much more important, because she is an avoider and I am a clinger. My boundaries are a very different type. Its not that I don't have boundaries, its that mine are much harder to reach. If it was an apartment building, her boundaries are somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd floor, mine are on the 15th. No, she doesn't want me at her beck and call, in fact that is part of the problem that I am making myself too available to her and its still overwhelming her. This was part of the problem in the marriage in the first place.

As for her TRULY loving me, please consider the possibility that maybe she didn't know how to work through problems. Maybe consider that she didn't know how to act like a grown up. Maybe consider the fact that her whole life has been about relationships falling apart and it was all she knows.

That aside, when she came in to sign the modification to the divorce agreement, we had a long talk of about an hour. It was incredibly frustrating and also productive. She went back to some of her "I'll just leave now" tricks and "If you don't want to have contact, then you'll just never hear from me again. Ask XH" (her 1st XH). I attempted to get her to be clear on what things were good to do and what things weren't good to do with limited success. We also got into some issues on some furniture she thought she was taking that was not included in the agreement and that she might want to take one of the cats. Of the five cats, she this is the one she would absolutely not take (its the one who always slept with us and now sleeps with me). My basic issue is that I don't know if I'm going to be able to be a good parent to five cats and a dog. If I can't be one, then I want to get them to a place where they can get good homes (they would absolutely go to a no-kill shelter). I'm not saying I am going to give them away, just that if I can't give them the love they need, then they will. I said I might give one of them to our housemate when he moves out, because he really loves her. She said she had already told him he could have the cat and I told her that it wasn't her cat and so it wasn't her decision.

She finally got real and honest on some more things. She tells me that giving her gifts that give her more stuff that she may or may not be able to move aren't very helpful to her. She would rather me spend that money on something practical and consumable, like groceries or dinner or something. Okay, that's fair enough. If I was planning to get her a $20 gift, then fine, I'll get her $20 of groceries. It doesn't mean I'll get her $40 of groceries, though. She also told me how much it was going to cost her to do the move to Texas, and its a heck of a lot more expensive than I had thought (its been a long time since I moved long distance). Well, okay, so now I understand why she is trying to save every penny. If she had opened up by saying "You know, eyes, its not that I don't think that Tucson would be fun, its just that I need to make sure I have $XXX available for this move, and its just not practical now", then I could have looked at the entire conversation in an entirely different manner. It was very much a "wow" moment for me. And, unfortunately, it took 1/2 hour of angst to get to it.

I also realized how close she is to the breaking point again. She is trying to do too much, too fast, and putting too much pressure on herself. And extra pressure from me isn't helping. The funny part is, at the end of the conversation, my opinion didn't change much. I'm still going to back off and give her space and not intrude on her life. Its just not worth the stress anymore. And yes, this put an end to my thoughts of a reconciliation anytime in the near future. She doesn't want it, and frankly I don't want it any more. I'm not saying I'm not open to it in the future, and right now I think she is way too unstable for anything like that. In fact, I kind of pity this guy in Texas if she does end up hooking up with him. Because until she learns to deal with some things, she will keep repeating her same patterns. She will get rid of some stress here and then will just find brand new stress in Texas. And she will drive him nuts like she's been driving me nuts.

Don't get me wrong. I still love her and want her to be happy and think that at her core she is an amazing woman, and as I've said, she is covered in a lot of baggage and right now she's not interested in getting rid of the baggage. She's just interest in replacing the old baggage with new baggage. She needs a friend now, and I can be a friend to her. And that's it. Its time to work on me and my issues and stop trying to force a future with her on her and on myself. She will always have a very special place in my heart, and I will always love her and maybe one day she will have a very special place in my life, and that place is in the hazy distant future, if it even exists at all.

I don't know about a Plan B when she goes. I'll think about that when she goes. Right now I'm dealing with March 3, 2009, not May 15, 2008.

Let me clarify that last line. At this point I am no longer planning on a future together. I really need to see some evidence from her that she is working on fixing her psyche before I'd even consider it at this point. So, Plan B may be pointless. I believe I'd rather stay in touch from a distance so I can see what she's doing with her life, and then make a decision at that point if she is someone with whom I'd like to have a relationship. If she is doing that work, then its probable I'd want that. If she's not, then let someone else deal with her craziness. I'll still always be there for her in a pinch, and not on a day to day, minute by minute basis.

"What I'm attempting to do is get her to define her boundaries."

This is NOT your job. You are "teaching" her and that's a bad thing. You want to take a break for your own sake, do it. You are still trying to control the course of this relationship and your ex wife's behavior even if you say you aren't.

Honestly, I think the only thing that will help you to move on is when she moves or if you go far, far away from your ex and have NO communication with her.

I want her to define her boundaries for me so I don't keep jumping over them. Maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly.

And I need a break from her because the mental stress is affecting me too much. My work production has dwindled, I'm not eating in a healthy manner anymore, I don't exercise like I should, I don't sleep, and that's not fair to me. I need to live for myself now, not for her.

I'll be around if there are major things to update, and I'm really not expecting any for a while, since I'm going to be steering clear of her most of the time.

she was married before you? i don't remember reading that.
she must have been pretty young to have a divorce under her belt all ready. that should have been a red flag right there eyes.

i agree with nams, you are trying to control the situation and you can't, period. you can only control what you do, not her. she is making it pretty clear that she is moving on and does not desire a romantic relationship with you. she is making it clear when she tells she doesn't, when she tells you not to buy her gifts, etc. WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO HER? she couldn't not be more clear!

i went through a lot of the same stuff with exbf. the amount of times he would break up then want to get back together, the back and forth, etc... my therapist finally told me "mlhb, his actions are pretty clear. HE IS NOT READY FOR A COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP. WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO THAT?" his words said one thing, but his actions said another. it was his actions i needed to heed. and she was right. and he would have kept up this push and pull with me forever if i had let him. i finally said "enough" no more chances. there will be no more tries. sent him a final email and cut all contact.

people like your ex and my exbf need a LOT of therapy, YEARS worth to get over whatever it is they need to get over and to realize they need to change patterns. i tried to fix exbf, i tried to make him see things my way, etc.. just like you are doing now. it doesn't work, and trust me, it will only end up making you resentful and angry. it did me. i am still trying to get over being pissed off at him!

mlhb

Awww, poor baby! Sorry to be rude, eyes, but from our side of the glass, you're being a dupe. I don't mean that in a rude way, just that we really all want you to just walk away! What you describe is not healthy, for either of you.

From over here, it looks like you keep trying to be with her, do for her, give her gifts, help her, pine over her, worry about her and for her, plan for her...Tell me where in all that SHE is having trouble with boundaries? Sounds to me like she's pretty much enjoying her cake eating. Which is not helping her, either.

So I applaud your stance of distancing yourself from her. I just hope you can keep to it.

She was married at 19, it lasted about 10 months. I met her after she had separated from him. Actually, technically I think they were married about 3 years. The D didn't become final until about 2 months before she and I got married, and she had said the marriage was a mistake from the beginning. She stayed with it because of all the money had been spent on it. For a confused 19 year old with her background (and of course, knowing her as I do) I can believe that.

She had a total meltdown last night that reminded me of why I had almost asked for a D several times in the past. She went up to her room to do some studying, then I went up to mine a little later and noticed the cat that stays with me was missing. I thought she might be with her, and she could also be wandering around or outside or whatever (this is a dumb cat). So, I went down, knocked on her door (didn't even open or attempt to open it) and said 5 words. "Do you have T there?" She said something like "Yes, I wanted to spend some time with her" and I said "Okay" and headed back to my room. A minute later she comes back with the cat and upset that she just wanted to spend a little time with her because soon she'll never see her again, and how she couldn't get any privacy and how I needed to interrupt her every 20 minutes, etc., etc. Now, after the events of the weekend and the long talk earlier, I think I know why she was feeling this way (in retrospect, I was way too intrusive on Saturday when all she wanted was a weekend away) and this was still way out of line. In fact, for someone who wanted this peace and quiet, she needed to spend the next 20 minutes explaining how miserable things were. It was just ugly. I had a long talk after that with our housemate, semi venting, and he reminded me that whatever she does in Texas, right or wrong, is what she needs to do and its not my responsibility any more. He's right (as you guys have been) and its still tough, because I do still love her, and I don't want to see her get hurt. However, after tonight it became very clear that she needs to trip and fall on her own now. That doesn't mean I won't be there to offer a hand to help her get back up when she falls, just that she needs to experience these things and not have me cushion them. He also agreed that she has no idea how to release stress, and that if she wasn't upset with me, she'd find something else about which to be upset. Its just what she does. Later, before I went up to sleep for good, she happened to come downstairs and we talked a little more, and it was mostly more of the same.

I came to a realization afterwards, though. It was a light bulb going on moment. Again, she said she was in such tears that she had friends who were talking about flying out here on a plane to see if she was okay. I told her again that she was perfectly safe here. She said "lately, I'm not so sure." Now, as I've said, there has been zero physical abuse in this relationship, so I am fairly certain that she knows that I would never harm her physically. However, she has brought up this point a few times now. It just dawned on me last night that its probably not me to whom she's referring. There probably was someone in her past who abused where when she tried to leave. Her dad? Her mom? One of the foster parents? Her 1st husband? An old boyfriend? I have no idea.

Anyway, the bottom line is that she was in a very bad way last night and it pushed me a long way away from her. Until she gets help, I have zero interest in anything but friendship, and she really even pushed that last night. She said something along the lines of "If the next 2 months here are peaceful, then everything will be fine when I go away and we can still be friends. If they aren't peaceful, then you'll never hear from me again." Now, frankly, last night I wasn't so sure that wasn't a good idea. Of course, if the next 2 months aren't peaceful, I may have to commit myself, so it may be a moot point. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I really do want peace and friendship with her, and right now the desire for anything more than that is dead. That's sad news, and probably good news for me in the long run.

Michelle, I agree that she could probably benefit from therapy, and probably lots of it. For her sake, I hope she gives up her resistance to it. Because nothing will change with her life if she didn't. She thinks that going to school and Texas and quitting her job here will free her of stress. That may be true, and she'll just find some new stress to put on top of it. I kind of pity OM if she does get into a relationship with her. Because I know that I put up with some of this for most of the 9+ years we were together, and I know there are people who think I should be sainted for that. He'll probably have no idea what hit him. And that's his and her problem, not mine.

On a semi-related note, she seemed to be alluding yesterday afternoon that OM might come out here and help her move some of her stuff from the house. Now, personally, I don't want to welcome him into my house. Do you think that is that just selfish/stupid of me and I should just be practical and put up with him being here a few hours just to help her get moving, or is that reasonable of me?

eyes, does it help you if we tell you that all of her comments and actions that you repeat to us just scream manipulation? She had no good role models, she only learned to get what she wants by guilting, manipulating, passive/aggressiveness, withholding, threatening, etc.? I'm not saying she's a bad person, just that she has really bad life skills. If she doesn't get help, she'll continue to react off of people, bouncing from one person to another who is willing to put up with her crap. Those who won't put up with it, she'll blame something on them and leave. Like she's doing now. Sad, but true. You truly are lucky she's leaving to find herself. Once she's had some hard knocks on her own, she may come to realize what she gave up. But it won't happen with you. So feel good that you're actually helping her.

As for the OM, who cares? He's just a poor schmuck who may or may not be currently under her spell (manipulators are very good at drawing people in, during their 'good' phase); if anything, I'd just feel sorry for him if I were you.

This reminds me of D17 who dated an abusive boy this summer. Just a monster, to this day he still hassles her, because she is the one who was smart enough to leave him. Well, monster kid got a new girlfriend, who D17 made friends with, and D17 told this girl the whole truth. In her mind, NOT telling (warning) her would be unethical. Maybe you could use the opportunity to give him a heads up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

catperson - I came to that realization last night, that I no longer want to put up with this garbage. I agree with you that her life skills are lacking. For her sake, I hope she doesn't just run to OM because it will probably just start the cycle again and she will lose more time and not get the help she probably needs. And I also agree that she won't realize it with me. I do want to make her last couple of months here good. I think if they are good, and we are in a good space when she moves, she may listen to me more about possibly getting some help. Or, she may not. I still love her enough that I want her to have a happy life, with or without me. And the hard work is up to her. And I have to make myself #1 priority.

She is incredibly charming in her good phase, and I think that OM may be drawn in from that standpoint. Or she may be drawn in by him. Remember, she said she has "kind of a crush" on him. I think he'll figure out where she really is soon enough, when/if he has to deal with it on a day to day basis. I've considered telling him, and at this point, I have enough dislike/distrust of him that I'm not feeling charitable towards him. I'm actually more at the "If you ever hurt her I'll cut your privates off" stage regarding him, because I have very little regard for his character. And her relationship with him is her problem, not mine. She will find out what sort of person he is, and vice versa. After last night, I'm more than happy to let her go through this fall on her own. I hate to see her in pain, and maybe pain is the only thing that will wake her up to how she is living her life. Obviously my efforts alone won't do it.

BTW, another thing just dawned on me about OM. I think I've mentioned he has a daughter. From my understanding, she came about because of a drunken night with a friend. He does his share of custody and from the reports I've heard, does it well. However, while he's friendly with the mother, they aren't particularly close. So, not only is the type of guy who preys on vulnerable, married women, he's the type of guy who doesn't care enough to use protection and puts a woman through pregnancy and the burden of raising an unwanted child for at least 18 years. What a champ! I have no idea why the woman kept the child, if it was religious beliefs or if she just decided maybe it was the right time to be a mom or whatever. So, again, I have very little reason to want to give him a heads-up. Let his karma bite him in the butt.

That is a really poor attitude to have, eyes. That's an attitude of a dad. Actually, to be fair, even parents should not be there to catch their kids when they fall after the kids reach a certain age. At 30, she does NOT need you catching her falls. Why can't you accept that?



Ah, another classic tool, DRAMA. She has the whole toolbox of a manipulator, doesn't she, and she plays her cards so well.


I'm sorry Eye, I would have told her right there that I can help her with the uncertainty by helping her pack and getting her crap into a motel. You do realize that when she says "things will be peaceful" she means "you will do EXACTLY what I say, how I say, and when I say. And I better be happy, or else".

Eye, I do wish you luck, but I think I'll try to take a break from your thread. I don't see that I am really helping, and my frustration level with your manipulative ex is becoming too high.

Good luck, and I hope you kick her out of the house next week if not sooner.

AGG

AGG - I am not planning to catch her falls. I said I'd be there to offer a hand to help her up after she falls. I've been catching her falls for years. That's what I want to stop doing.

Oh, I know about the drama and friends coming out thing. I kind of rolled my eyes at that one.

I got very close to telling her to pack her things last night. It really was almost my last straw. In fact, it was my last straw on thinking about repairing things now.

Don't worry about a break from the thread, I'm hoping that I can take a break from it, too.

i need to hook her up with my exbf. man, if they aren't 2 peas in a pod.

she sounds exactly like him, acts like him, talks like him, says things he would say.

and i acted much the same way you have been when we first broke up.

now i am thankful that my life is back to normal and minus the drama.

i loved my exbf eyes, i would have married him. i am glad i saw how he truly was before it got to that.
he is not a bad person either, but one who needs to learn, through many more years of therapy, real life skills and to not be such a manipulator, etc. i don't know if he ever will, and i won't be there to find out. my therapist told me this: if you are going to wait for him to be who you need him to be, he may get there eventually, but you will be waiting YEARS. in the mean time, i could have moved on with my life and found someone else, someone HEALTHY. she said it was my choice, up to me.
i chose to move on.

mlhb

michelle - After last night, I understand I may have to wait years, and I have no intention of putting my life on hold for an "it could happen" for years. That's not saying I'm ready to jump into something else now, however I'm no longer thinking that there may be this magical change in her that will be in the next month or three months or six months. I'm just saying that if she does change, and if something good/better hasn't come along, I'd still be interested. If I found someone who met my ENs better before she gets her act together, she'd be out of luck, although I'd hope we could still be friends. However, if I haven't, and she does get there, then its a different story.

And yes, I am looking forward to an end to the drama. While I do enjoy the roller coaster ride, last night I saw a big "TRACK OUT AHEAD" sign and its time to get off.

I'm interviewing controller candidates for a client of mine today, and the last one who was in was cute, smart, funny, single and, frankly, interesting. Were I not interviewing her for a client and if I thought I was mentally ready to think about other women, I'd be interested. In fact, there's part of me that wants to ask her out for lunch or something after the interview process. That's got some ethical issues, though, so I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure she's divorced, too, since I made a comment along the lines of "This client, like my ex-wife, thinks there is unlimited money out there." She laughed and said "All of us exes do."

It was just nice to look at another woman, find her attractive, have some good conversation and not worry that I was cheating on anyone.

i am glad you are keeping an open mind to looking but PLEASE only date casually for awhile until you are READY and REALLY over your ex.

i made that mistake with exbf. i was way further in recovery than he was. i was his first relationship (he had only dated casually for a few months, very casually) and was not even divorced yet having just left his wife in January, gotten a legal separation in place, and we met in April)
i hope i am NEVER anyone's first relationship after a marriage ending again. after over a year of dating, and much pushing and pulling in between because he truly was not ready for what i was ready for, i am still healing from the hurt.

just proceed slowly.

but please do keep looking! and yes, start going out on casual dates. and it is NONE of your exes business if you do go by the way. and don't be surprised if you do and she finds out,that she will be jealous because someone else will be getting your time and you won't be around for her to manipulate. exbf and i had not talked in quite some time at ome point last year and when he read on here that i had joined eharmony... well, lo and behold, don't i get an email from him, how much he still loved me, etc... he didn't want to be with me but he didn't want me to be with anyone else either. see, it would foil his plans for when he would call and want to get back together the 5000 times he did that to me.

mlhb

I'm 100% on the same page with you. That's why it's kind of a pity I met this woman at this point. I mean, this is an initial reaction based on talking to her or 40 minutes, and I guess it was just nice to have that sort of reaction again. However, I am pretty sure that at this point I'm still one of those guys who would just talk about his ex most of the date, and I don't want to "inflict" that on anyone!

Its funny. As I've mentioned, the XW has encouraged me to date and has said that in part its so she would feel more comfortable dating. It goes back to her saying that if she went out with someone else she wouldn't feel "safe." As I've discussed, I'm pretty sure that's actually a cover for her insecurities, and that's not why I'm not interested in dating. No, I don't want a romantic relationship with my XW at this point because of her issues, however that doesn't mean I don't love her, and doesn't mean I'm not in love with her. Its just not time yet. Casual things are fine, anything with expectations isn't.

The XW has also said that she knows I'm going to see other people at some point, and she's prepared for it. I've told her that I'm sure she'll be jealous at some level and she says she won't. I don't believe her. Its very clear she still has strong feelings for me, and it will bother her. I know I'll almost certainly have jealousy when she dates. I mean, you've seen how I've reacted to OM in Texas, and that's not even a serious relationship at this point. However, I really can't think of a better fate for him than to be the rebound relationship and get totally burned. Oops, that was pretty petty, wasn't it?

Intellectually, I know its none of her business what I do, and emotionally I'm still committed to her, despite the D. That's just another sign I'm not ready for any real dating. I think I mentioned that my business partner and his wife invited me out to dinner with them and a female friend this weekend. I'm going to go. It's not really a date, although who knows if I like the woman that that potential doesn't exist down the road? If the XW has a problem with it, that's her issue, not mine. If I mean that much to the XW, then she can start getting help for her issues and then we can discuss an "us." Until she does, I'm not interested.

Well, today's events were interesting, if nothing else. Thursday night she asked me if I wanted to do photos today (she models, and I am a good photographer). I agreed, because I like working with her. When I saw the outfit she was going to wear, I was even more interested. I scouted a location yesterday to set up. Oh, then she asked me to dinner last night, and shock of shocks, she paid for her own, no questions asked. Anyway, today we were a bit behind schedule because of her (I as ready when she requested, she took longer to get ready than she thought she would) and things started off well. Then, lets just say my camera was doing some things that it shouldn't have been doing. A few of the shots were ruined because the camera seemed to be ignoring the aperture settings I gave it. Anyway, she started getting a bit pissy about things, which was of course complicated by the fact that she's OTR right now. Now, in the past, what usually happened here is that I rise to the bait, and get really pissy and it turns out we both have a miserable time in a really ugly power struggle. This time I saw it starting to happen and told her I needed a time-out before I got out of control. I just walked away to calm down. We then got back to things and while it was a bit tense at first, it turned out to be a good shoot. Not perfect, for a variety of reasons (one of which is I could have used an assistant) and still a good one. She later said she found 18 usable images, which is a good number.

Anyway, we go back to the house and after a bit she asks me to help her get some of the photos on her computer. I'm ready to do this and head out and then she asks if I'll pick up some lunch. Its lunchtime, and I'm hungry, so this was no biggie. I bring back the lunch, and she says "I can come downstairs, or you can just stay here and eat with me." So, we eat and chat for a while. I'm figuring I'll head to the office for a while when she says "I'm just going to be working on the photos. You're welcome to stay if you want." Okay, that's fine. We sit and watch TV and chat while she works on the photos. I'm working on my prevalidation, mirroring and validation as we talk. After a while, she seems to sense me getting restless or maybe bored with what was on TV, and says "You can put in a DVD if you want." Now, that really sounded good to me, since I was enjoying spending the day with her, and I really did/do have work to do in the office, plus I'm remembering Al Turtle's rule to make myself minimally available, so I tell her I'm enjoying the time with her, and really do have to go to the office. Which is where I am now. It was especially interesting in that there was some tension at the shoot, although I did my best to defuse it. I also expressed to her where I thought she was denigrating my work and my efforts and how hurtful that was to me.

Now, I'm not putting this out there as any drastic change in the relationship or my expectations. I'm still holding firm that until she gets some help, I have no interest in a serious relationship with her. However, it was the first time in a while that that she really expressed that she wanted me to be spending the time to her, instead of me always believing like I was imposing on her. I guess it was nice to be chased instead of chasing for a change.

{{{eyes}}} You're getting more attractive all the time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

relish it for the moment it was.
for it was just a moment.

she is so much like exbf it is not even funny.
he would tell me how much he loved me, etc, have me plan a wonderful weekend get away and a week later change his mind.
i asked my therapist "why does he do this" and her answer "he had a mood swing, what do you expect?"

so, she has had a mood swing eyes.
i am sure it will be swinging back any time.

just be realistic. ok ?

mlhb

I chuckled at that one. Yeah, who knows when she goes back into "Monday Night" mode. My housemate's theory is that she just has never learned how to properly vent her stress. And, the mood swings are a major reason why I don't want a serious relationship until she gets help. Until I feel like I don't have to walk on eggshells around her 24/7, what's the point?

Thanks, cat. She may be seeing that, and I doubt it will change her moving away in a couple of months. However, it may give the foundation for something down the road, assuming she learns to deal with life a lot better.

forgive me for saying this, but it will take years for her to get to a healthy point even if that is what she desires to do. she has shown no signs that she desires to change anything.

i really hope that you don't decide to wait years for her to become someone healthier. i hope she goes away to college, and in time, while she is away, you meet someone who is your equal and who doesn't need saving or to be taken care of like a daughter.

sorry, just being honest here.
i don't have a lot of warm fuzzy love for you ex.

i felt the same you did for some time until my therapist told me his patterns would keep repeating, that if i gave a second chance i would be giving a 3rd and a 4th and a 5th, etc... and that i would be waiting years. that put it into perspective for me!

mlhb

I've said many times that I won't wait indefinitely. After she leaves for college, I plan to eventually start dating (I don't have an exact time frame for that, it could be 3 months, it could be 3 weeks, it could be a year) and I'm certainly not waiting the three years until she graduates. I think I'll know well before the three years are up if she plans to actually make some changes. If she doesn't, then hopefully she and I can remain friends, but the intimate relationship we had will be permanently gone. If she does, then she will at least be back in the running.

I think I've gotten a pretty clear picture of how you feel about my ex. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, I think the main thing we have been posting for eyes is to get him to start working on himself - FOR himself. That is why I say he gets more attractive - he's learning how to stand on his own, like himself, and treat himself better. When he meets the woman he'll spend the rest of his life with, he'll have a boatload of skills in reserve to help set up the happiest marriage ever.

i agree with you cat on those things.

"when he meets the woman"
yes, i do not believe he has met that woman yet. and i DEFINITELY DO NOT BELIEVE that woman will be his ex.

mlhb

eyes: don't mean to be so blunt about your ex, i just don't want to see you get continually kicked in the heart like i did with exbf.

Yeah, it's always fascinated me that, with so many millions of people in the world, we tell ourselves that we need to stick only with the people we know - duds or not.

With the exception of perhaps some major updates, I am dropping this thread. I do not believe that the feedback is useful to me at this point, as it has just become repetitious. I appreciate everything that everyone has told me to this point, and it weighs heavily into my thinking.

Best of luck to all.

Well, its been about 10 days or so, and I figured I'd just pop in with an update.

First, I think I am fully ready for my ex to move. My feelings for her haven't changed, however there is a lot of work I want to do on myself, and I allow myself to be constrained while she lives in the house. For those who follow Al Turtle, I think my lizard is still not comfortable with her.

I have also come to believe that any reconciliation is likely many months down the road, and it is no longer the same priority to me it was as recently as 2 weeks ago. I believe that I am content to let her new relationship play out as it will, and to just go about my own life. As one of the many posters on my wall says..."It is my job to take care of me!" and that is my focus.

There is a woman who works in the same building as me in whom I have become interested. We've had some interaction, and I find her funny, smart, and cute as all get-out. We seem to have a number of things in common, too. I also don't believe I'm ready for a serious relationship now, and she said that she just got out of a "hideous" divorce, too (she said they filed in October, 2006 and just signed the final papers last week) and she may not be interested, either. Now, while I'm not looking for a relationship, cultivating a friendship is another story. So, we'll see where that goes. It actually feels to be good to talking to this woman an not feeling guilty about it (i.e., really feeling single).

As for my ex, she still does not seem to want to believe that OM was working on her for months before the divorce. She really seems to believe that his interest in anything other than friendship started after the divorce. The one question she has not been willing to answer is "How soon after the divorce did he start saying 'Don't worry, baby, I'll always be here for you. I love you. You'll be fine with me.'?" And, I think she's a very intelligent woman. I think she'll figure it out eventually. And, its her problem, not mine. I give their relationship very little thought these days. It is what it is.

Oh, and in what I call a little bit of karma, OM's appendix burst last weekend and he had to have surgery. While I'd hardly wish anyone dead and I'm glad he survived, I didn't shed any tears over his discomfort. Oh, and for a bit of his character...he didn't want to call any of his male friends to take him to the hospital because he didn't want to appear to be non-manly to them. Also, his biggest upset was that he couldn't go drinking on St. Patrick's Day. Oh yeah, he's a catch.

I do have her move-out date, which will be in the 2nd week in May. As I said, I'm very ready for it. The stress levels have been way down when she's been away a lot recently. And I've planned three little trips for myself to visit friends, something I probably wouldn't have done while married. And I continue to do a lot of reading, see my therapist, and practice the skills I want to learn.

Well, that's it. If anything major happens, I'll give another update.

Eyes,
It is nice to hear a much healthier attitude out of you!
Please tell me this woman at work is a little closer to your OWN age??!!

:-)

mlhb

Honestly, I have no idea how old she is, although my guess would be mid-late 30s. She has 2 kids who were in the office the other day and looked to be in the 8-12 range (I don't think I'm very good at guessing kids ages).

And I'm really not looking at her as any sort of long-term prospect at this point. I'm honestly not sure if I want to take on someone else's kids, especially when they came from a 'hideous' divorce. Right now I'm looking for a friend, and then we'll see.

And Michelle, you're the one who worries about my XW's age, not me. I think we just have different views on the subject. As my therapist puts it, you can be an adult at 21 and a child at 50. Physical age is not the telling factor. My thinking is generally in line with his on this subject.

I just spoke to the XW before she got on her plane to head back here. She seemed to be in a decent mood, which is good, however we'll see if a 6 hour plane flight changes that. One of my co-workers said "I'm sure you're happy she's coming home" and my reaction was basically "That depends on what sort of mood she is in." Honestly, if she's going to come home and complain about things, she could just as well stayed and I would be just as happy. If she's going to come home and work on being my friend then yes, I am happy she's coming home. She did thank me in advance for coming to pick her up tonight. That's a little progress.

I realized that when she moves away, it could conceivably be the last time I ever see her. I think that's unlikely, as I don't think either of us wants that, and I suppose its possible. That's a fairly depressing thought to me. She's too important to me in too many ways and I think the reverse is probably true for her.

However, her life, her relationship with OM, are all her own now. It actually feels good to not be taking care of her anymore.

Eyes,
I don't always see age as a problem, as long as two people are equally matched. I never felt you and your ex were seeing how extremely immature many of her actions have been. Maturity wise you two were not matched. Maybe in areas of similar interests you were. Most of the time, not always, but mostly, such a vast age difference ends up posing some sort of problems. That is the only reason I bring that point up.

You know what? When my now exbf got on the plane last summer to go home I knew in my heart it was the last time I was going to see him. And it was. He pushed and pulled at me over the phone right up until this past January. But we never physically saw each other again. And now we have not communicated either. And actually, that is the only thing that has been helping me to heal and be able to get myself ready to move on. I could not do that while there was still some sort of communication.

Her leaving will not be a bad thing for you and your life. You'll see.

mlhb

As I said, I think I'm ready for her to go. I think I want the space to heal and rebuild my life. She made her big public announcement about her new boyfriend yesterday, and I'll admit that even though I knew about it, I've still let myself feel hurt over this.

I hear that you think she is very emotionally immature. I see it similarly, and I also see that in many ways, I think I was very emotionally immature. The big difference is that, right now, I think I am working harder than she is on gaining some emotional maturity. That doesn't mean she won't six months from now.

I hear that you think that her leaving my life would be a good thing. I look at it differently. You constantly come across to me as assuming she is your exbf in female form. Again, I see it differently. Sure, there may be some similarities, maybe a lot of similarities, and they are still two unique individuals. I don't recall how long you said you were with your exbf, however there is 10 years of our lives invested in this relationship, and she is still the most important person in the world to me. At this point in time, I do not see any way where not having her in my life in some fashion would be good. Who knows how I'll feel six months from now. One of the reasons I am cutting way down on my posts here is that you come across to me as constantly wanting to invalidate my feelings for her, and I believe that is a huge "take" from me.

At any rate, let her have her fun while I do some serious work. Let her find out what life is like without me. Maybe this guy is just as codependent as I was and they have a great dysfunctional relationship together. Maybe not and he gets fed up in 3 months. Its their problem, not mine. While she does that, I will be preparing for my next relationship, be it a month from now or six months or a year, and next time I'll do everything I can to get it right from the beginning.

Eyes,

She just seems to be very similar is all. Yes, I do agree that every person is unique. I did not have 10 years invested, only a about a year and a half to 2 years. April 06 through this past January.

I apologize if I am coming across strong. I guess I just don't like to see people hurt or continually getting hurt. I feel like you will continually get hurt if you hang onto something that she is not. But you obviously are free to make your choices.

I don't want to be the reason you don't want to post so I will bow out here gracefully as AGG has chosen to do.

Be healthy and take care of YOU!

mlhb

I have been doing a lot of thinking about things, and I think I am going to do a full NC after she moves to Texas. I'll send her alimony checks and that will be the only contact I initiate. If she wants to initiate contact (and I think its likely she will), I'll make a decision then how to respond. She's threatened repeatedly (yes, Michelle, I know its her controlling ways. :)) that if I don't have contact with her she will forget about me. Yet every time I tell her I want no contact she tells me that's not what she wants, and every time I cut off contact she re-initiates it.

I want her to know what she gave up, and I don't think that will happen as long as I keep being her life line. And without the distraction of her, I think I'll be able to work on myself more. Yes, I have a huge fear of her being out of my life forever, and I've realized that I'd rather have no contact with her than constant bad contact with her. Its funny, I've told her that as long as there is breath in me, she'll never be alone in the world, and even the no-contact doesn't change that in my mind. If there was a crisis, I'd break this rule in a heartbeat. However, for day to day stuff, she needs to rely on OM or other friends for a while. She chose him over me, she can live with the consequences of it.

As I've read and has been pointed out to me, she probably misses me as much as I miss her...or she would if I would ever just let her go. So, when she moves, I'm letting her go. If she comes back, great. Then we can work on what, if anything, we have left. If she doesn't, at least I'll have an answer and can move on myself.

Sounds like a plan.

Hey, I've got a not-date!

There this cute woman who works in the same building as me with whom I've been chatting with over the last couple of weeks. Like me, she's recently divorced, although hers seems to have been much uglier than mine (she used the term 'hideous') mostly because there were kids involved. Anyway, my employees heard me talking about how I found her cute and fun to talk with, so they took it upon themselves to ask her to lunch for me. Gee, thanks, ladies. Well, she says she's nowhere near ready for a new relationship, and frankly, neither am I, and we do like each other, so we're going to just have a casual friendly lunch, and take things extremely slowly.

BTW, none of this means I'm giving up on my ex. However, I realize that the process of reconciliation with her is likely to be a long one with very uncertain results. I still plan to go no-contact with my ex when she moves out of my house and give me time to learn to not be in love with her, and give her time to figure out her feelings for me. For instance, yesterday she tells me that the new guy "Is not more important than you, he's just important differently." Yeesh. So, let's see after a month or two of not talking to me, not hearing from me, not getting e-mails or texts from me, just an alimony check in the mail, how important she really thinks I am. And because I'm still in love with my ex, having a "not-date" is all I want at this point. I don't want to make anyone my rebound.

Hey, its a start.

Well, yesterday was her move-out day. OM came from Texas to help, and I helped pack the truck, too. They are supposed to be ready to pack the truck at 11 AM, it actually doesn't get started until 2 PM. Okay, so I get to the house, OM is there doing something with the truck. I say hi, he doesn't particularly acknowledge me, and he's busy with something. I go into the house, the loading goes pretty smoothly. Its not just me helping. My housemate and another guy are helping, too. I hand him stuff, we don't want to make a lot of small talk, I think I'm there to do a job more than anything. I'm not feeling angry or bitter or anything. I looked at him and just thought "What a sad, pathetic man you are. To be the sort of man that has to chase married women. Why did I waste any time hating you?"

The ex bought lunch for us, as I'm sitting at the computer eating mine (that's when I posted earlier) they are sitting with each other on the steps. They are chatting, and he's telling her to finish her food. She says "I don't want to be a fatty!" He says "You're not fat." I chuckled to myself...they will have this discussion more than once. The loading was the longest I interacted with OM, and my impression was that he's an arrogant little general who gets off on giving orders.

Anyway, he goes to drive off the truck, and the trailer hitch falls off. I don't know if it was something he did, or something the guy from the truck company who had to come out to fix and earlier issue did. I hope to god that her car doesn't fall off in transit. Her car is one of 2,500 of that model in the WORLD. I think she'd kill him if that happened. Seriously. Scissors in the chest probably.

So, the ex is upset because she can't find a couple of the cats so she can say goodbye. One was outside and I got him to come in, one we finally tracked down hiding behind the washing machine. She'll miss the cats a lot. I don't even know if she said goodbye to the dog. She didn't take her out of the cage, at any rate. That stung a little, and she's always been much more of a cat person.

Finally, we get around to saying goodbye. First, she invites me to her going away dinner (my housemate said she really wanted me there) and I told her I wouldn't feel comfortable there because OM was there, and at this point, I think neither of needed the additional stress. She understood, although she was kind of disappointed. And in my mind, how would it change anything? Then, we do some small talk about her new place and how she's thinking it might make a nice investment. I think we were dodging the real goodbye.

She tells me that she has to do this for herself. I tell her that I am very proud of her for taking this chance and that I think its great. Really, I do. I am tired of the little girl version of her. I want her to be that incredible woman I always saw. The tells me how I was mean to her so many times. She says she hopes my online friends have been there for me through this, because her online friends weren't there for her, just giving her empty congratulations. Unfortunately, this came as no shock to me. And, its interesting, because a lot of online friends and real-life friends of mine have been here when I needed you, and its made this transition a heck of a lot easier. I apologized for the times I was mean, because I never meant to hurt her. I told her that I thought we both were stubborn and proud and thought that the other person would change if we just waited long enough. A bit to my surprise, she agreed. By this point, we're both fighting back tears. I told her that I really was going to keep working on myself, and she said that I had to prove it to her, which is fair enough. And its another one of those statements that I hear and think that she never wanted this to happen. I told her that I still loved her immensely and she told me she loved me too and at this point the tears are flowing from both of us. She told me that her new bf is a good man, and I told her that I wasn't going to talk about him. I just said that in a month or three months or whatever, she'd find out if I was totally wrong or if he wasn't the man she thinks he is. I tell her that if there is ever a crisis or emergency, that I would be on the first flight out to see her. And I told her again that as long as I was alive, she would never be alone in the world. I talked about how she was right back in January when she said that "this chapter is closed", and I said that it didn't mean that we couldn't write a new chapter where we got things right. She tells me that she's going to be back in town in June and she wants to see me then. I told her I couldn't guarantee that today, which she didn't like. I told her about my housemate, who recently talked to his ex-partner about coming out for a visit, and they started arguing, and he realized that he wasn't ready to see him yet...and that's been over a year. I told her that I didn't want to see her if we were just going to argue. And I think I'll be okay to see her by June...I'll have 2 1/2 months to work on myself. We are in a close embrace now, crying on each others shoulders. I tell her again I love her, and she tells me again she loves me.

She has to go, she has to get ready for her dinner...but we have one more embrace and exchange of I love you's. She tells me that she'll see me in June, and that we'll talk before then. I tell her that's fine, but its likely to be a while before she hears from me. And then she was out the door. When I got back to the office, I sent her two text messages, the last she'll hear from me until at least May 8 (I am going on strict no-contact for at least 30 days), and I don't expect her to reply. The first said "I am so very proud of you. I love you and always will. I am never going to stop trying to turn myself into someone you would like to get together with" and the second said "Goodbye for now but not forever."

She actually called later last night, I don't know if it was by accident or design. I picked up and said hello, and there was no response. It was a few minutes before the dinner and I don't know if she was going to make one last plea for me to go. They left the truck in front of the house last night and drove her car to his hotel. They pulled out sometime around 8 AM this morning, and she's gone now.

I'm sad and I'm relieved and I'm hopeful at the same time. I know she's hurt now, I'm hurt, too. I know we need time to heal. And I know she still wants me in her life, and I think she still wants me as a big part of her life. And I have to prove myself to her. And she has to prove herself to me, too...but the raw emotion, the love between us is still there, and I still believe that the end of our story is far from written.

For now, though, its a time for me to regain some mental health and to work on becoming a better man. Whether or not we ever get back together is a huge question mark and depends on her willingness to confront her issues, too. And I'm a better man for our years together, and will strive to continue to improve from here.

{{{eyes}}} I think you did just fine!

Do something special for yourself tonight.

Does "working late, then doing grocery shopping and then watching TV" count? Not much time to pamper myself until tax season is over.

Please goggle borderline personality disorder. Obviously you can't diagnose her unless you are a pyschology professional but the personyou are describing has lots in common with people with this disorder. The big clue is the fear of abandonment. Even the not liking sex thing. This is a disorder that often goes undiagnosed as people with in often do not want to face it. Just do youself a favor and check it out.

Dreamsallgone - I didn't see this until now, and someone else mentioned BPD a few weeks ago on another forum, and when I looked at the symptoms, I basically said "Holy Crow...that's her." While she hasn't been formally diagnosed, I believe she has BPD, and her sister, who has a degree in Psychology, believes she has BPD. This has totally changed the nature of my interaction with her.

I've read "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!" and am currently reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells." Next up comes "Sometimes I Act Crazy" and I'm going to sign up at BPD Central. Once I was exposed to what BPD was, so much fell into place.

Well, its been a month since she moved out, and there have been changes galore. First, I promised myself that I was not going to be in contact with her for 30 days minimum to work on myself. I knew there would be some minimal contact, because we had to handle our taxes and a cat being shipped to her and that was all I intended. Well, she was attempting to be in contact with me frequently, I was hearing from her every 3-4 days. While some was related to our "business", she was also keeping me updated on life, and she made it clear she was keeping up no my Live Journal, where I was "leaking" progress reports about the work on myself. From my side, the contact was two businesslike e-mails, and that was it.

As mentioned in the post above, I became exposed to BPD, and realize that she likely is suffering from this disorder. This allowed me to suddenly understand so many of her actions, and allowed me to instantly forgive what she was done (well, maybe not instantly) as I suddenly understood the origin. I continued to learn about this, work on myself, and do things for myself. While I think about her a lot, she does not rule my life.

This all changed this week. Sunday I had to ship the cat out to her, and this was the cat that always slept with us, and to which we are both very attached. She used a pet transport service to get her, and when I was giving her to the driver he could see that I was quite upset, and asked me if I was going to miss the cat so much, why was I sending her? I told him "Because I made a promise, and because I love my ex-wife more than I love this cat." I also made a LiveJournal post about this.

Well, Monday morning at 6 AM the phone rings. I don't answer it (mostly because I was sleeping and my brain didn't register what was going on before it went to voice mail). There's a message from my XW, who is in tears, saying she had just read the post, and that things are hard on her, too, and that she's not doing well, and that she misses everything and wants to know how I'm doing just wants to talk to someone she knows. Then, I check my e-mail, and she's responded to my LJ post and in there says "Thank you for keeping your promise. It really means the world to me." I wasn't sure how to respond. Thankfully I had a phone session scheduled with Al Turtle that morning, and I discussed it with him, and he suggested making an appointment with her to talk. I really didn't know what was going on, and took his advice, and we decided to talk in the early afternoon. We talked for an hour and a half, and it seemed clear to me that she is not very happy where she is. She doesn't seem to like the area much, and the people are very different from what she knows, and she really misses everything from here. She says things are going okay with her new BF, but she doesn't see him much. She actually seems to spend a lot of time with her BF's DD, and I think that's because she lives near BF's DD's mother and because they have split custody. It was actually a very nice conversation, and we really didn't touch on "us" too much, although I did let her know that I was still interested. It was nice, and I realized that I wasn't distraught or anything, and could probably work on being friends with her.

Well, that was fine...until yesterday. Yesterday I was on a plane and while I was on it, she left me a voice mail letting me know the cat had arrived safely. I responded with a text saying that I was happy it arrived safely, and that, on an unrelated note, I was beginning to "get it" and that I work on it every day. Well, she instantly calls back and wants to talk. I actually meant to put the call through to voice mail, and didn't. First she starts off talking about how she's happy the cat is there and she's adjusting, and then she breaks down...she's having money troubles, issues with her student loans, and is very depressed and suicidal (very common in BPD sufferers, and she's had suicide attempts in the past), so I start talking with her, using that I am learning to help. We start working on strategies to help her work out her tuition issues. She's talking about how none of her friends are there for her, and how lonely she is. Suddenly she blurts out "You didn't even ask me how things are going with BF!" I said "I didn't ask because its really none of my business, and if you want to share, I'll listen." Well, things aren't going well, she thinks he liked the idea of her more than actually being with her, and she thinks he doesn't have time for a relationship with her or anyone else. I tell her again that if they aren't together, I'm interested, but that I won't take the role he took in our relationship and she has to resolve things with him before we even talk. Besides, I don't even know how she feels about me. She says "If you want the truth, I still love you and I really miss you!" Well, this kind of changes the tone of the conversation a bit, although I keep stressing that she needs to resolve her current relationship first before I would be interested in anything, and that we need to take things very slowly. She's also very fixated on wanting to finish school (I think she's afraid I'd tell her she had to move back here, which is actually not what I want now). There is such a strong bond between us, and I think it took her being away from her for her to really see how strong. We exchanged several "I love you"'s in both Monday's and yesterday's conversations.

Now, what does this all mean? I really don't know. I think it means we are moving towards getting back together, and I think its going to be a long process. I still have some healing to do, and since I strongly suspect the presence of BPD, I have to learn a lot more about that. I'm hoping that she will be open to therapy, because otherwise this could be a deal-breaker. She has to resolve her relationship with the BF first. We have to work on the logistics of a LDR. So, its not an easy task. And that's okay with me. To me, she's worth the effort. I'm not sure what comes next. I'm leaving the next contact up to her. I doubt I'll have to wait long, and I'm still wrapping my mind around everything, so I'm taking it slowly, and attempting not to read to much into things.

i would definitely think that her going to therapy would have to be a deal breaker otherwise, you will have more of the same back and forth you have had with her for years.

AND, she still calls you when everything is all messed up. how is she ever going to learn to be a big girl and take care of things herself if you keep helping her to do it?

classic co-dependent. i used to always do the same things as well until my therapist taught me a way to deal with it. instead of always giving solutions, when she calls you and says she is having money problems, problems this problems that, you simply say to her "ok, i am listening. so, how do you plan to deal with these things?" and let HER figure it out. believe it or not, that is actually loving someone. letting her be a big girl and take care of her own problems is a very big way for you to help her.

it still sounds like you are trying to take care of her.

and she still sounds extremely unbalanced.

i think it is great if you want to learn all about BPD however, it matters not if she doesn't agree to treatment. you can't help her if she is not willing to help herself on that one.

you have come too far to end up right back in the same relationship you were in before.

mlhb

I so agree with mlhb. What you are describing is NOT healthy, for either of you! All you're doing is continuing the same co-dependent BS that was destructive to both of you. She will never grow up like this. You really need to consider not talking to her for awhile. I'm serious. Quit being her father. Quit making her think you will protect her, pick up the pieces, let her slide and be selfish and self-centered. None of that will make her turn into a good partner, and you'll just get the same broken girl back, instead of a healthy, loving wife.

Do it for her, if you really love her as much as you say you do. All I see right now is someone who wants to stop being lonely. Make that two of you who want to stop being lonely.

Tell her you will call her once a month for the next 12 months, on a Sunday afternoon the first Sunday of each month, at noon. Something like that. Make her have to take care of herself and find her own solutions.

Personally, if she is bi-polar I would run run run the other way.

I was once in a relationship with a BPD -- nightmare.
You constantly get to be the hero, though. Because you are constantly bailing them out of whatever they have gotten themselves into. They are just NOT good relationship material.

Now, if she gets herself treated and medicated that might be a different story. But she doesn't sound like she's even started that process.

It might be more useful for you to explore your need to save her all the time. Ask your therapist about "knight in shining armor" syndrome. I'm not trying to diagnose you -- but I think that is the source of your "strong" connection.

Her neediness and your need to be needed.

Sorry, I completely agree with the others. It is still all about her. "I'm sad, I'm lonely, I'm broke - how dare you not ask me about my new BF?".

She is still viewing you as her dad, not a good role for you to be in.

Past suicide attempts? Man, I'm with Lexxxy - I'd be running away as fast and as far as possible. Way way way too much baggage with this woman. The more you invest with her, the more caught up in the drama you will be. If you want a life full of drama though, she's the one.

I know you won't like this response, but from the outside looking in, this is nothing but trouble. She is not the Prize you think she is.

AGG

lexxy, i agree with that.

he does "need to be needed" and to "save" her.

at one time eyes, you said you actually liked the drama. is that still true?

are you in therapy as well because i cannot remember if you said you were? if you are, have you even touched yet on how you feel the need to father your exw and to constantly come to her rescue? you see it as loving her and caring for her, but anyone else from the outside see it for what it is: your need to be needed by her and to save and protect her like you would a daughter.

mlhb

and yes, we are all being brutally honest here, but what good are we if we are not?

Just to pile some more on....

Enablers always think the are "helping" by fixing problems, bailing out, finding solutions.

In reality, the greatest "help" you can give someone is letting them learn to fix things themselves. They will never learn the skills they need to get by in life, if their Enablers are always stepping in and doing it for them.

She's made some choices and is suffering the consequences. Let her learn how to fix this herself. It doesn't just take a phone call to you. Let her learn to do the work.