I won't argue with you about the roller coaster ride. Frankly, part of my pulling back, giving her space, and working on myself is to dampen the swings either way. Call it self-preservation. I guess her waffling is easier for me to take because I'm often the waffler (just the other night she was telling me about how wishy-washy I was with some things...and she was right).

I also agree with you about the maturity level. One of her stated goals in this process was basically to "grow up and figure out who she is." As I've realized, I'm tired of being her dad. If she can be a mature version of the person I've known for almost 10 years, that will be great. I don't mind some immaturity, at 46 I'm a kid 1/2 the time, and that works for me, and to at least be an adult and make adult decisions is critical. To her credit, she has started to take on some big issues now (her education, her job, the relationship) and while she's making tentative steps (she's still full of self-doubt), the are at least steps.

As for the guy in Texas, I suspect he's above her maturity level, too. As much as I love her, I can honestly she is a stunted teenager in many ways. I honestly think she believes she can keep him as "just a good buddy" indefinitely. Now, I can't speak for him, and I can say that most guys I know would get tired of that after a few months. As more time goes by and my head clears, I really am becoming more convinced that she just considers it a really close friendship. Not that she isn't interested in him, just that she hasn't made that decision about him, me or anyone (that lovely waffling).

i hope you don't get to the breaking point i got to. exbf was such a waffler. and trust me, i loved him with all my heart. would have married him. he would be fine for a few months, all about us and only us. then would change, get scared, lose confidence, whatever, and would tell me he either wanted to break up (which we did several times) or would just say he need space. then he would call and say i was all he wanted and his only love and we would make plans for a romantic weekend only to have him call me a week later with a changed mind again. he did this for several months (and i hung on because i loved him so much) until one day i just lost it. we didn't talk for a month or 2 then he called saying how much he had grown in that time, i was his only love, we forgave each other and said the past was the past. talked every day, made plans to meet actually in february. sent him a great xmas gift because that is the kind of person i am. i got nothing in return but an email in january once again saying he changed his mind.

so, i see a lot of that in your situation and i guess i want to say that i doubt it will get better. it takes a lot to change that, and they are the ones who need to do the changing. i have had to establish no contact with exbf and have blocked all ways he could reach me. it was hard, i loved him. i am still healing and i am still angry.

mlhb

mlhb - I hear what you are saying about your exbf. It sounds like the up and down took a terrible toll on you. Honestly, my relationship has been a roller coaster ride the entire way. I am remembering back to an internet conversation the XW and I had right before we got together. She was in absolute tears because her dreams of marrying a doctor had turned to dust. Later, when I asked her about this conversation, she told me that she was asking me here to treat her better, and not betray her. Again, this goes back to her abandonment issues, and her ongoing history of depression. I'm not qualified to judge this, and she may be manic depressive.

Honestly, though, the roller coaster ride has been part of the adventure. I've always said that this relationship has always kept me on my toes. I have ADD, and there's this part of me that thrills to the mood swings and ups and downs, and much prefers that to someone "run of the mill" and "boring." I obviously hit my frustration point with it over the last year, which led to the communications breakdown which led to the divorce. Now, I have a whole new challenge with her. Its a whole new adventure. I realize that it almost makes her sound like a prize, and I don't want it to come across that way. To me, this is just another step in our adventure together. Now, its a big step and I can't see where I'm landing, and the journey is exhilarating in its own way. I think part of her confusion is that after everything she's (metaphorically) thrown at me, I keep getting up and saying "Okay, try again." I think there's part of her that wonders why I haven't just given up and...well...abandoned her.

OK, so you have now mentioned several times this "low trust level" that she has in you, but I haven't seen an explanation of what that is all about. Could you elaborate on what has caused this "low trust level"?

AGG

Well, I'll give it to you as best I can, since I don't totally understand all the details, as she has not stated on which specific points she does not trust me. It is what she has stated several times. From my standpoint, there was never any sort of infidelity, emotional or physical. However, there were a lot of broken promises. I've mentioned her concerns about my waffling on things. Its true, I am a "should" person a lot of the time (I'm working on this) where if I'm asked if I can do something, I say "I should be able to do it", and in my mind, that left me an "out" if I wasn't able to do it. This has always been very frustrating to her, as she would just like me to commit to one course of action or another. There were a lot of "shoulds", and a lot of small things I didn't get done. For instance, let's say I was supposed to pick up something for the house, and forgot...3 or 4 days in a row. Yes, it happened, and more than once or twice. It might have been something non-critical, like more soda, and it was still a broken promise.

On the cruise we went to in December, I didn't do my homework well enough, and we weren't nearly as prepared as we could have been. She had left this in my hands, as I had insisted on this, wanting to show her that I could arrange the trip, and I said I'd get it done, and I dropped the ball on it and, further, didn't ask for help.

I've mentioned the "don't treat me like a client" deal a few times, and I promised that I would improve there and, frankly, didn't, because until recently I didn't actually understand the issue (I assure you, this no longer happens).

Things like these and others eroded her trust level that I would live up to what I would say I would do, and that I would ever change. I think this is what ultimately triggered the divorce request, because she was convinced that she was "trapped" (her word) with a guy who didn't understand her, and, based on his (my) actions, didn't want to understand her. I can see where that could have been incredibly frustrating for her.

So, I believe that the current "lack of trust" is that while she is seeing changes, right now she is having a difficult time believing that they are real changes and not just a "ploy to get her back" (again, her words). Because of past behaviors, she is still in the state where I have to prove that I am really sincere about changing myself. Call it "Once bitten, twice shy." I realize I won't regain her trust in a day or a week or a month. It will be a long ongoing process. I can see signs that she has noticed the changes, and I also still get skepticism from her. Its really hard for me to blame her. I did a lot of lip service to change, or temporary bursts of change in the past.

Also, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm a recovering compulsive gambler. I did a lot of damage in that time, financially and emotionally. I've been clean for 5 1/2 years, and there were a lot of broken promises when I was gambling, and times I really left her in the lurch. Those memories die hard. As recently as last summer after she and I had a fight and I went out to run errands, she wondered if I had gone gambling (I actually got caught in some long check out lines, and because I was still in a bad mood, took my sweet time getting home). So, there are trust issues related to that, too.

I'm committed to being totally open and honest with her from here on out. She may not like everything about what I say, however she won't have to worry about me making up stories anymore.

Also, I know this was a long post (again). I'm working on condensing, because I know that some people may be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information in some of my posts. However, I think this one deserved a longer explanation. I'm putting a self-imposed 200 word limit on future responses, or at least will give warning if they aren't going to be that way.

in short, you are telling me that you like the drama.
hey, have at it. i can't stand drama. not saying i want "boring" or "run of the mill" as you put it, but i'll take that any day over drama.

the fact that you like this dysfunction is an issue in and of itself. simply put: it is NOT healthy.

i did not find the ups and downs i encountered thrilling or a challenge. at first, i was understanding, but then they just got old until i turned completely indifferent. and frankly, this last time, it just pissed me off. and this was a pattern for him as he had done the same thing in his marriage. thus, i can understand why his exw is so pissed off at him most of the time: she had to live with years of this nonsense.

mlhb

I am amazed at the effect of putting up some boundaries. The last 3 nights, I have decided that I was not going to go down and say good night to her, I was just going to give her space. Each of the last 3 nights, she's come up to my room to say goodnight and talk for a few minutes. This morning I was planning on leaving the house without disturbing her, however she got up and wondered where I was, and I said "I'm on my way out the door in a minute", and suddenly she wanted to come down and say goodbye and we ended up speaking for a while. I truly believed that she would basically instantly forget about me if I wasn't "in her face" all the time, and what I'm finding is that our contact appears to be very important to her. And without the pressure/pushing from me, it has been much more relaxed, happy contact.

A roughish night tonight. We had a long (2 hour) talk on the phone. She's very concerned about not being able to afford school and being hit with a big tax bill from last year and again feeling "trapped" and that she won't be able to realize her dreams. We're going to redo the divorce agreement so that I give her more money now to help with the taxes and school, but the term of the alimony will be reduced by about a year and a half. She also let me know she could be moving as early as the end of May. She's looking for apartments near where she expects to be going to school. She says she may want the extra couple of months before school to acclimate to a new region. I thought I had 5 months with her, now its 3. Its more and more clear that school, not relationships, are her top priority now. And that's okay, I'd wait for her, and I expect her to emerge from school as a much more complete person. She was upset that I seemed so down over it. I told her that she was someone I loved seeing every day, and that now I was going to see her once a month if I was lucky. Her response was "Don't you think this is hard on me, too?"

She again was telling me how with her going away, I should date other women. I told her I wasn't in any way, shape or form ready to date anyone. She said "Well at least look at them. Be a pig. Just notice them." I assured her that wasn't a problem. I don't know what she's thinking with this, besides the fact that she has stated that if I only consider her a possibility, it puts a lot of pressure on her.

it will be even harder when she goes back to school, especially since she will be living there. i went back to college at 34 years old. being around all those young college students, i felt like a kid again myself! i started dressing younger, acting younger, and hanging out with the kids i was going to school with. a friend of mine who went back to college as well at the same time, who was in her early 40's even partied with the younger kids and hooked up with a guy for awhile who was in his early 20's!

with her maturity level, i think she is going to have a whole new life there around people we who are on the same maturity level she is. don't be too disappointed if she finds a whole new crowd of younger people to hang out with and have fun with. i fear you may end up being a distant memory.

not trying to be mean, but realistic. i know what it was like, after just getting out of a marriage, to go back to college. it was like i was alive again.

what does she plan to major in?

mlhb

She's an education major. She wants to be a teacher. The education is critical to her since her top priority is getting her self-sufficient adult life started. She also has 3 years to go so she's really not looking at being out until she's almost 34. I graduated at 25 and that was tough enough. I have a lot of empathy for her at 30 and you and 34.

She already dresses young and acts young, I don't think that's going to change much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She tends to run with a younger crowd already, which is why I'm not always as close with some of her friends (I fully admit the age gap there is an issue).

I know you're not being mean. There's part of me that just thinks that when she leaves, I should just say goodbye and I'll send you an alimony check once a month, and thanks for the 9 years together. Of course, I know that's the part of me that just got hit with the 3 month shock last night. She insists she won't forget me, that I'm too important, and I just don't know. 90 days is a short time and a long time. I'll have a much better feel for where we are by then. I believe I'll be clearer in my head if I even want to pursue this long distance, or if I just want to be thankful for the distance so I can put her out of my head and move on and if our paths cross again, so be it, or somewhere in between.

why does she have to go out of state to become a teacher. there are teaching colleges all over the place. i live in a very small town and there are 2 within an hour's drive of here.

my first goal was to become a teacher. i subbed for 2 years and loved it. i LOVE teaching. BUT, there are no jobs around here in teaching. so, i got a job in social work and changed my major. at 36 i am in my 3rd year of college and will have a bachelor's in human services. teaching was my dream, but this is a very good fit as well and i believe the path God set me on.

mlhb

I dunno bud, I think this will be "out of sight out of mind". Like Michelle says, your ex will be around a fun, vibrant, young crowd, which will only accentuate your age difference. I doubt that being around all these young people will make her want to reconcile; probably just the opposite.

I firmly believe that she sees you now as a comfortable old shoe, one that she knows she can always count on to bail her out, be it out of loneliness, boredom, or financial issues. Sounds like you are essentially financing her going off to college - so of course she wants to stay on good terms with you.

So, I would take her up on her advice and start dating other women. Well, not right away, you don't want to do that when you are still dreaming of a reunion with your ex. But after she leaves, I would definitely start moving forward, instead of being stuck in the past. And my guess is that these "I'll see you once a month" things will quickly degrade to once a quarter, twice a year, etc. Three years is a very VERY long time to put your life on hold for, while the person you are putting your life on hold for is moving on. Not good.

AGG

mlhb - The schools in Nevada are not nearly as good for education, and there are issues with teaching credentials transferring. And, as I found out (see below), Texas wasn't her first choice. She really wanted to go to school in Boston.

AGG - You could be right...we'll see how it goes. We had another long conversation this morning which I'll relate below, and during it I told her that I expected that in the next 3 years she'll see other people, and that at some point I will, too. And I also told her I didn't expect either of us to be celibate for the next 3 years. As for the financing college...see below, too.

Last night wasn't one of my best sleep nights. This morning, I do some of the math on this change to the alimony, and realize that its going to cost me about $12K and I'm not willing to do that. And I e-mailed her about it (she was still asleep) and when she calls, we get to talking, and I tell her that the reason I believe that I shouldn't do this because I want to see her budget and I'm afraid she's screwing me over on money, attempting to get me to pay her tax bill for her, is because I think she's been hiding things from me, so its hard for me to trust her. So, then we get into a big discussion. She wasn't clear on part of the money issue, and its really not going to cost me as much, if anything in the long run. So, I told her that all as good. She also told me that Texas wasn't even her first choice for school, she really wanted to go to UMass, and realized that there was no way she could afford it (tuition is like twice Texas, plus higher living costs in Boston).

Then we get into the subject of OM. I told her that I thought she wasn't being truthful with me about him. She finally admitted that Valentine's Day was their first date other than as friends (how's that for irony?) and that they also went out to dinner once more that weekend. She also said that she has somewhat of a crush on him, and that she isn't sure if he likes her. I pointed out that since they had gone out twice, I was pretty sure he liked her, plus I knew he had been interested in her for a long time. She said that she didn't think so, that he was an industry guy and that's why he was friendly. I told her she didn't understand men very well if she believed that.

She is interested in going out with him, and also not sure. She knows he has a kid and that she would always come in 2nd to her, and she's not sure if her baggage and his go together. She really isn't sure where its going to go. One of her housing possibilities is splitting a house with him (and perhaps others) although she was clear that she needed her own space. I told her I sort of hoped she would go out with him so she can find out what sort of person he really is. And yes, she wants me to go out with other women so she can feel "safe" going out with other guys. So, she is clearly asking my permission. I told her she didn't need it. Oddly enough, since she was finally honest with me about it, I'm at peace with it. I don't love it, and at least I don't have to make up junk anymore since my head always makes up the worst things. In fact, I was very clear with her that if she remained open and honest with me, things will go much better with us because I won't make up things in my head. I think she's starting to get the concept.

She also admitted she still loves me, and that she really has to find herself now. She wants me to come visit her in Texas, although I told her I might need a break for a couple of months from her. We'll play that by ear. She doesn't want me putting all my eggs her basket, because she's not sure where she stands and what sort of relationships she wants with me or anyone in the future. I understand, and told her that, and told her that I needed a lot of work on myself first. I again said that if I get to the point where I think I'm ready and she still has feelings, I'm not playing for 2nd place, because she's worth everything. I also told her I want to become a source of safety for her, and let her know that I'm like a baby taking his first steps now, and will get better at it every day. I also knew it was a hard conversation for her, and I thanked her for putting up with the trauma for an hour because it would allow me to give her many better hours in the future.

It was a tough conversation for me, too, and honestly, in some ways I feel better about things than I have in a long time. Her being honest and open with me was HUGE and if we can stay that way, I believe everything will be great in the long term. I'm not sure exactly where our paths will go, and if we start from honesty and openness, we get closeness back, and from closeness comes unlimited possibilities.

I take her to the airport at 5:30 AM tomorrow (she's visiting a girlfriend in LA) so I'm almost glad I'm exhausted now. Hopefully I can fall asleep early tonight!

See, this is not the message that I would be sending her, because it again makes you sound like you are her dad, not an ex husband whom she is leaving to discover the great big world.


Again, I think you are not making yourself attractive to her. Who wants to deal with someone like this? People are attracted to confidence, not to someone who is confused, needs help, etc. Note how well she reacted to the little glimmer of toughness or detachment on your part - why go back to being weak? Just something to consider.

AGG

This is from Al Turtle's site, and I'm going to defer to him there. The theory being that people run because they don't feel safe where they are. If you are safe, you have no reason to run. I've mentioned her lack of trust, her in fact using the words she doesn't feel safe with some things. So, I want her to feel safe in the "comfortable telling him anything and in his presence" sense. I understand what you are saying, and I think its just a matter of interpretation.


Interesting point and definitely something to consider. You're right, I may have been saying that more to reassure myself than her. I'm working on very little sleep and it was a stressful conversation and I may have missed the mark with that one.

I definitely scored some points this afternoon. She actually got everything she needed for a scholarship application together (good job by her, she really hustled) however the fax machine at her office was on the fritz. She gave me a panicked call letting me know she had sent me the information and could I please fax it and it had to be there in the next 12 minutes! Well, 5 minutes later I get it printed, at the 9 minute mark the fax goes through. And this from a (thankfully understanding) client's office.

I told her not to worry about dinner tonight, she could probably use a break from me, and she comes back with "I'm just saying I have a lot to do. If I get out of work early we can do something." I have to chuckle internally. Its just another case where I want to give her space and she doesn't want to take it.

And despite my exhaustion (I'm on my 2nd Red Bull of the day, up from my normal total of, well, zero) I still feel better about things than I have in weeks. Seriously, the honesty was a huge step.

i would have made her figure out a way to fax it herself. she is still wayyyy too dependent on you! and you asked a client if you could fax it from their office? nope, i wouldn't have done it.

i feel like you are hanging onto the tiny little crumbs she throws you. if she wanted to be with you she would not be telling you to date other women while she dates other men.

she doesn't sound like she could survive on her own. i think she needs to see what it would be like to try. she just has way too much dependence on you because you have provided that "dad like" presence.

mlhb

mlhb - Given what she had to go through to get the stuff ready in the first place, I was willing to help. I mean, come on...there were 12 minutes until the deadline. Her office doesn't have a working fax machine (a long story that makes me cry) and there wasn't a lot of time to get to a place that might have a fax. In the reverse situation, I would have called her. And I would not have been able to do this with just any client. However this particular client and I are friends, and we do a LOT of business together, and I knew he would understand.

Am I hanging on to crumbs? Maybe, maybe not. I really don't know at this point. That will get proven out over time. And in 3 months or so, she will figure out if she can live on her own. I do think there will be some things that will be a rude awakening for her. I get where you are coming from and I realize that I may be betting on a long shot here, and in the immortal words of Han Solo..."Never tell me the odds." I chose my screen name for a reason, and in my heart, I believe that the universe is not done with us yet. And I keeping true to that belief.

Hmmm, I am probably more with Michelle on this one... I know you feel like you were her hero for saving the day with the fax thing (and you were), but the flipside is that you are enabling her to continue to be dependent on you. So, you are continuing to smooth her next 3 months here, until she moves on, and you stay.

There is the classic concept of detaching with love - that is what I think you'd be better of doing in your situation. Again, conceptually, there is nothing wrong with doing a favor for someone - we all do that. But, I have yet to see any indication of her doing anything for you - and that is not healthy. So, you keep being her savior, and I am sure she counts on that (which is why she pouts if you are not there for her when she wants you).

But in the end, I keep getting the sense that you are indeed accepting her crumbs, which will only make her lose respect for you.

You see, you keep talking about maybe your paths crossing in the future, her being "The Prize" (already not a healthy mindset, IMO) - but, none of those are likely to make her want you. If you really want to impress her before she goes, I'd stop accepting crumbs and show her that you can be her friend (which is different than doormat), but that you also have a backbone and a life.

In a way, the more favors you do for her, no matter how much they save her, the less respect she'll have for you, because, like it or not, she will see you as a doormat. I think you have a great chance of getting her to fall in love with you, but first she must respect you - and for that, you should detach.

Anyway, just some thoughts...

AGG

AGG - No argument. My point was that if any friend had called me with 12 minutes to the deadline, I would have done the same thing. And I also agree that showing my independence and backbone is important. In fact, during the long talk this morning I said a few things about friendship being a 2 way street (and was thinking of you at the time). She's going away for the weekend, and frankly I'm happy to have the free time to myself. I'm not sure what I'm going to do (except work...ugh) and at least I get to script it for myself.

And yes, I also know I have a lot of work to do before I get into a healthy mindset about the entire situation, including the detaching. And I do work on it every day. Part of the reason I post so much is that I greatly appreciate the feedback. It may not always seem this way, and I don't discount anything I read hear. I may not always agree with it, and I do keep it in mind in terms of thinking about what I want to do.

And that is why I keep posting to you - I don't normally post to folks who only want validation for their plans, nor to those who blindly follow what they are told. I see that you are processing all the feedback, and picking and choosing what to apply. And I respect that. I am rooting for ya, bud.

AGG