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"What I'm attempting to do is get her to define her boundaries."

This is NOT your job. You are "teaching" her and that's a bad thing. You want to take a break for your own sake, do it. You are still trying to control the course of this relationship and your ex wife's behavior even if you say you aren't.

Honestly, I think the only thing that will help you to move on is when she moves or if you go far, far away from your ex and have NO communication with her.


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I want her to define her boundaries for me so I don't keep jumping over them. Maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly.

And I need a break from her because the mental stress is affecting me too much. My work production has dwindled, I'm not eating in a healthy manner anymore, I don't exercise like I should, I don't sleep, and that's not fair to me. I need to live for myself now, not for her.

I'll be around if there are major things to update, and I'm really not expecting any for a while, since I'm going to be steering clear of her most of the time.

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she was married before you? i don't remember reading that.
she must have been pretty young to have a divorce under her belt all ready. that should have been a red flag right there eyes.

i agree with nams, you are trying to control the situation and you can't, period. you can only control what you do, not her. she is making it pretty clear that she is moving on and does not desire a romantic relationship with you. she is making it clear when she tells she doesn't, when she tells you not to buy her gifts, etc. WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO HER? she couldn't not be more clear!

i went through a lot of the same stuff with exbf. the amount of times he would break up then want to get back together, the back and forth, etc... my therapist finally told me "mlhb, his actions are pretty clear. HE IS NOT READY FOR A COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP. WHY AREN'T YOU LISTENING TO THAT?" his words said one thing, but his actions said another. it was his actions i needed to heed. and she was right. and he would have kept up this push and pull with me forever if i had let him. i finally said "enough" no more chances. there will be no more tries. sent him a final email and cut all contact.

people like your ex and my exbf need a LOT of therapy, YEARS worth to get over whatever it is they need to get over and to realize they need to change patterns. i tried to fix exbf, i tried to make him see things my way, etc.. just like you are doing now. it doesn't work, and trust me, it will only end up making you resentful and angry. it did me. i am still trying to get over being pissed off at him!

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Well, she called and was upset by the e-mail, telling her it wasn't what she wanted and that it was adding to her stress level, not reducing it.
Awww, poor baby! Sorry to be rude, eyes, but from our side of the glass, you're being a dupe. I don't mean that in a rude way, just that we really all want you to just walk away! What you describe is not healthy, for either of you.

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First of all, it is about her boundaries, because she is having the problems setting boundaries, not me.
From over here, it looks like you keep trying to be with her, do for her, give her gifts, help her, pine over her, worry about her and for her, plan for her...Tell me where in all that SHE is having trouble with boundaries? Sounds to me like she's pretty much enjoying her cake eating. Which is not helping her, either.

So I applaud your stance of distancing yourself from her. I just hope you can keep to it.

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She was married at 19, it lasted about 10 months. I met her after she had separated from him. Actually, technically I think they were married about 3 years. The D didn't become final until about 2 months before she and I got married, and she had said the marriage was a mistake from the beginning. She stayed with it because of all the money had been spent on it. For a confused 19 year old with her background (and of course, knowing her as I do) I can believe that.

She had a total meltdown last night that reminded me of why I had almost asked for a D several times in the past. She went up to her room to do some studying, then I went up to mine a little later and noticed the cat that stays with me was missing. I thought she might be with her, and she could also be wandering around or outside or whatever (this is a dumb cat). So, I went down, knocked on her door (didn't even open or attempt to open it) and said 5 words. "Do you have T there?" She said something like "Yes, I wanted to spend some time with her" and I said "Okay" and headed back to my room. A minute later she comes back with the cat and upset that she just wanted to spend a little time with her because soon she'll never see her again, and how she couldn't get any privacy and how I needed to interrupt her every 20 minutes, etc., etc. Now, after the events of the weekend and the long talk earlier, I think I know why she was feeling this way (in retrospect, I was way too intrusive on Saturday when all she wanted was a weekend away) and this was still way out of line. In fact, for someone who wanted this peace and quiet, she needed to spend the next 20 minutes explaining how miserable things were. It was just ugly. I had a long talk after that with our housemate, semi venting, and he reminded me that whatever she does in Texas, right or wrong, is what she needs to do and its not my responsibility any more. He's right (as you guys have been) and its still tough, because I do still love her, and I don't want to see her get hurt. However, after tonight it became very clear that she needs to trip and fall on her own now. That doesn't mean I won't be there to offer a hand to help her get back up when she falls, just that she needs to experience these things and not have me cushion them. He also agreed that she has no idea how to release stress, and that if she wasn't upset with me, she'd find something else about which to be upset. Its just what she does. Later, before I went up to sleep for good, she happened to come downstairs and we talked a little more, and it was mostly more of the same.

I came to a realization afterwards, though. It was a light bulb going on moment. Again, she said she was in such tears that she had friends who were talking about flying out here on a plane to see if she was okay. I told her again that she was perfectly safe here. She said "lately, I'm not so sure." Now, as I've said, there has been zero physical abuse in this relationship, so I am fairly certain that she knows that I would never harm her physically. However, she has brought up this point a few times now. It just dawned on me last night that its probably not me to whom she's referring. There probably was someone in her past who abused where when she tried to leave. Her dad? Her mom? One of the foster parents? Her 1st husband? An old boyfriend? I have no idea.

Anyway, the bottom line is that she was in a very bad way last night and it pushed me a long way away from her. Until she gets help, I have zero interest in anything but friendship, and she really even pushed that last night. She said something along the lines of "If the next 2 months here are peaceful, then everything will be fine when I go away and we can still be friends. If they aren't peaceful, then you'll never hear from me again." Now, frankly, last night I wasn't so sure that wasn't a good idea. Of course, if the next 2 months aren't peaceful, I may have to commit myself, so it may be a moot point. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I really do want peace and friendship with her, and right now the desire for anything more than that is dead. That's sad news, and probably good news for me in the long run.

Michelle, I agree that she could probably benefit from therapy, and probably lots of it. For her sake, I hope she gives up her resistance to it. Because nothing will change with her life if she didn't. She thinks that going to school and Texas and quitting her job here will free her of stress. That may be true, and she'll just find some new stress to put on top of it. I kind of pity OM if she does get into a relationship with her. Because I know that I put up with some of this for most of the 9+ years we were together, and I know there are people who think I should be sainted for that. He'll probably have no idea what hit him. And that's his and her problem, not mine.

On a semi-related note, she seemed to be alluding yesterday afternoon that OM might come out here and help her move some of her stuff from the house. Now, personally, I don't want to welcome him into my house. Do you think that is that just selfish/stupid of me and I should just be practical and put up with him being here a few hours just to help her get moving, or is that reasonable of me?

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eyes, does it help you if we tell you that all of her comments and actions that you repeat to us just scream manipulation? She had no good role models, she only learned to get what she wants by guilting, manipulating, passive/aggressiveness, withholding, threatening, etc.? I'm not saying she's a bad person, just that she has really bad life skills. If she doesn't get help, she'll continue to react off of people, bouncing from one person to another who is willing to put up with her crap. Those who won't put up with it, she'll blame something on them and leave. Like she's doing now. Sad, but true. You truly are lucky she's leaving to find herself. Once she's had some hard knocks on her own, she may come to realize what she gave up. But it won't happen with you. So feel good that you're actually helping her.

As for the OM, who cares? He's just a poor schmuck who may or may not be currently under her spell (manipulators are very good at drawing people in, during their 'good' phase); if anything, I'd just feel sorry for him if I were you.

This reminds me of D17 who dated an abusive boy this summer. Just a monster, to this day he still hassles her, because she is the one who was smart enough to leave him. Well, monster kid got a new girlfriend, who D17 made friends with, and D17 told this girl the whole truth. In her mind, NOT telling (warning) her would be unethical. Maybe you could use the opportunity to give him a heads up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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catperson - I came to that realization last night, that I no longer want to put up with this garbage. I agree with you that her life skills are lacking. For her sake, I hope she doesn't just run to OM because it will probably just start the cycle again and she will lose more time and not get the help she probably needs. And I also agree that she won't realize it with me. I do want to make her last couple of months here good. I think if they are good, and we are in a good space when she moves, she may listen to me more about possibly getting some help. Or, she may not. I still love her enough that I want her to have a happy life, with or without me. And the hard work is up to her. And I have to make myself #1 priority.

She is incredibly charming in her good phase, and I think that OM may be drawn in from that standpoint. Or she may be drawn in by him. Remember, she said she has "kind of a crush" on him. I think he'll figure out where she really is soon enough, when/if he has to deal with it on a day to day basis. I've considered telling him, and at this point, I have enough dislike/distrust of him that I'm not feeling charitable towards him. I'm actually more at the "If you ever hurt her I'll cut your privates off" stage regarding him, because I have very little regard for his character. And her relationship with him is her problem, not mine. She will find out what sort of person he is, and vice versa. After last night, I'm more than happy to let her go through this fall on her own. I hate to see her in pain, and maybe pain is the only thing that will wake her up to how she is living her life. Obviously my efforts alone won't do it.

BTW, another thing just dawned on me about OM. I think I've mentioned he has a daughter. From my understanding, she came about because of a drunken night with a friend. He does his share of custody and from the reports I've heard, does it well. However, while he's friendly with the mother, they aren't particularly close. So, not only is the type of guy who preys on vulnerable, married women, he's the type of guy who doesn't care enough to use protection and puts a woman through pregnancy and the burden of raising an unwanted child for at least 18 years. What a champ! I have no idea why the woman kept the child, if it was religious beliefs or if she just decided maybe it was the right time to be a mom or whatever. So, again, I have very little reason to want to give him a heads-up. Let his karma bite him in the butt.

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she needs to trip and fall on her own now. That doesn't mean I won't be there to offer a hand to help her get back up when she falls

That is a really poor attitude to have, eyes. That's an attitude of a dad. Actually, to be fair, even parents should not be there to catch their kids when they fall after the kids reach a certain age. At 30, she does NOT need you catching her falls. Why can't you accept that?


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she was in such tears that she had friends who were talking about flying out here on a plane to see if she was okay. I told her again that she was perfectly safe here. She said "lately, I'm not so sure."

Ah, another classic tool, DRAMA. She has the whole toolbox of a manipulator, doesn't she, and she plays her cards so well.

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She said something along the lines of "If the next 2 months here are peaceful, then everything will be fine when I go away and we can still be friends. If they aren't peaceful, then you'll never hear from me again."

I'm sorry Eye, I would have told her right there that I can help her with the uncertainty by helping her pack and getting her crap into a motel. You do realize that when she says "things will be peaceful" she means "you will do EXACTLY what I say, how I say, and when I say. And I better be happy, or else".

Eye, I do wish you luck, but I think I'll try to take a break from your thread. I don't see that I am really helping, and my frustration level with your manipulative ex is becoming too high.

Good luck, and I hope you kick her out of the house next week if not sooner.

AGG


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AGG - I am not planning to catch her falls. I said I'd be there to offer a hand to help her up after she falls. I've been catching her falls for years. That's what I want to stop doing.

Oh, I know about the drama and friends coming out thing. I kind of rolled my eyes at that one.

I got very close to telling her to pack her things last night. It really was almost my last straw. In fact, it was my last straw on thinking about repairing things now.

Don't worry about a break from the thread, I'm hoping that I can take a break from it, too.

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i need to hook her up with my exbf. man, if they aren't 2 peas in a pod.

she sounds exactly like him, acts like him, talks like him, says things he would say.

and i acted much the same way you have been when we first broke up.

now i am thankful that my life is back to normal and minus the drama.

i loved my exbf eyes, i would have married him. i am glad i saw how he truly was before it got to that.
he is not a bad person either, but one who needs to learn, through many more years of therapy, real life skills and to not be such a manipulator, etc. i don't know if he ever will, and i won't be there to find out. my therapist told me this: if you are going to wait for him to be who you need him to be, he may get there eventually, but you will be waiting YEARS. in the mean time, i could have moved on with my life and found someone else, someone HEALTHY. she said it was my choice, up to me.
i chose to move on.

mlhb


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michelle - After last night, I understand I may have to wait years, and I have no intention of putting my life on hold for an "it could happen" for years. That's not saying I'm ready to jump into something else now, however I'm no longer thinking that there may be this magical change in her that will be in the next month or three months or six months. I'm just saying that if she does change, and if something good/better hasn't come along, I'd still be interested. If I found someone who met my ENs better before she gets her act together, she'd be out of luck, although I'd hope we could still be friends. However, if I haven't, and she does get there, then its a different story.

And yes, I am looking forward to an end to the drama. While I do enjoy the roller coaster ride, last night I saw a big "TRACK OUT AHEAD" sign and its time to get off.

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I'm interviewing controller candidates for a client of mine today, and the last one who was in was cute, smart, funny, single and, frankly, interesting. Were I not interviewing her for a client and if I thought I was mentally ready to think about other women, I'd be interested. In fact, there's part of me that wants to ask her out for lunch or something after the interview process. That's got some ethical issues, though, so I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure she's divorced, too, since I made a comment along the lines of "This client, like my ex-wife, thinks there is unlimited money out there." She laughed and said "All of us exes do."

It was just nice to look at another woman, find her attractive, have some good conversation and not worry that I was cheating on anyone.

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i am glad you are keeping an open mind to looking but PLEASE only date casually for awhile until you are READY and REALLY over your ex.

i made that mistake with exbf. i was way further in recovery than he was. i was his first relationship (he had only dated casually for a few months, very casually) and was not even divorced yet having just left his wife in January, gotten a legal separation in place, and we met in April)
i hope i am NEVER anyone's first relationship after a marriage ending again. after over a year of dating, and much pushing and pulling in between because he truly was not ready for what i was ready for, i am still healing from the hurt.

just proceed slowly.

but please do keep looking! and yes, start going out on casual dates. and it is NONE of your exes business if you do go by the way. and don't be surprised if you do and she finds out,that she will be jealous because someone else will be getting your time and you won't be around for her to manipulate. exbf and i had not talked in quite some time at ome point last year and when he read on here that i had joined eharmony... well, lo and behold, don't i get an email from him, how much he still loved me, etc... he didn't want to be with me but he didn't want me to be with anyone else either. see, it would foil his plans for when he would call and want to get back together the 5000 times he did that to me.

mlhb


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I'm 100% on the same page with you. That's why it's kind of a pity I met this woman at this point. I mean, this is an initial reaction based on talking to her or 40 minutes, and I guess it was just nice to have that sort of reaction again. However, I am pretty sure that at this point I'm still one of those guys who would just talk about his ex most of the date, and I don't want to "inflict" that on anyone!

Its funny. As I've mentioned, the XW has encouraged me to date and has said that in part its so she would feel more comfortable dating. It goes back to her saying that if she went out with someone else she wouldn't feel "safe." As I've discussed, I'm pretty sure that's actually a cover for her insecurities, and that's not why I'm not interested in dating. No, I don't want a romantic relationship with my XW at this point because of her issues, however that doesn't mean I don't love her, and doesn't mean I'm not in love with her. Its just not time yet. Casual things are fine, anything with expectations isn't.

The XW has also said that she knows I'm going to see other people at some point, and she's prepared for it. I've told her that I'm sure she'll be jealous at some level and she says she won't. I don't believe her. Its very clear she still has strong feelings for me, and it will bother her. I know I'll almost certainly have jealousy when she dates. I mean, you've seen how I've reacted to OM in Texas, and that's not even a serious relationship at this point. However, I really can't think of a better fate for him than to be the rebound relationship and get totally burned. Oops, that was pretty petty, wasn't it?

Intellectually, I know its none of her business what I do, and emotionally I'm still committed to her, despite the D. That's just another sign I'm not ready for any real dating. I think I mentioned that my business partner and his wife invited me out to dinner with them and a female friend this weekend. I'm going to go. It's not really a date, although who knows if I like the woman that that potential doesn't exist down the road? If the XW has a problem with it, that's her issue, not mine. If I mean that much to the XW, then she can start getting help for her issues and then we can discuss an "us." Until she does, I'm not interested.

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Well, today's events were interesting, if nothing else. Thursday night she asked me if I wanted to do photos today (she models, and I am a good photographer). I agreed, because I like working with her. When I saw the outfit she was going to wear, I was even more interested. I scouted a location yesterday to set up. Oh, then she asked me to dinner last night, and shock of shocks, she paid for her own, no questions asked. Anyway, today we were a bit behind schedule because of her (I as ready when she requested, she took longer to get ready than she thought she would) and things started off well. Then, lets just say my camera was doing some things that it shouldn't have been doing. A few of the shots were ruined because the camera seemed to be ignoring the aperture settings I gave it. Anyway, she started getting a bit pissy about things, which was of course complicated by the fact that she's OTR right now. Now, in the past, what usually happened here is that I rise to the bait, and get really pissy and it turns out we both have a miserable time in a really ugly power struggle. This time I saw it starting to happen and told her I needed a time-out before I got out of control. I just walked away to calm down. We then got back to things and while it was a bit tense at first, it turned out to be a good shoot. Not perfect, for a variety of reasons (one of which is I could have used an assistant) and still a good one. She later said she found 18 usable images, which is a good number.

Anyway, we go back to the house and after a bit she asks me to help her get some of the photos on her computer. I'm ready to do this and head out and then she asks if I'll pick up some lunch. Its lunchtime, and I'm hungry, so this was no biggie. I bring back the lunch, and she says "I can come downstairs, or you can just stay here and eat with me." So, we eat and chat for a while. I'm figuring I'll head to the office for a while when she says "I'm just going to be working on the photos. You're welcome to stay if you want." Okay, that's fine. We sit and watch TV and chat while she works on the photos. I'm working on my prevalidation, mirroring and validation as we talk. After a while, she seems to sense me getting restless or maybe bored with what was on TV, and says "You can put in a DVD if you want." Now, that really sounded good to me, since I was enjoying spending the day with her, and I really did/do have work to do in the office, plus I'm remembering Al Turtle's rule to make myself minimally available, so I tell her I'm enjoying the time with her, and really do have to go to the office. Which is where I am now. It was especially interesting in that there was some tension at the shoot, although I did my best to defuse it. I also expressed to her where I thought she was denigrating my work and my efforts and how hurtful that was to me.

Now, I'm not putting this out there as any drastic change in the relationship or my expectations. I'm still holding firm that until she gets some help, I have no interest in a serious relationship with her. However, it was the first time in a while that that she really expressed that she wanted me to be spending the time to her, instead of me always believing like I was imposing on her. I guess it was nice to be chased instead of chasing for a change.

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{{{eyes}}} You're getting more attractive all the time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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relish it for the moment it was.
for it was just a moment.

she is so much like exbf it is not even funny.
he would tell me how much he loved me, etc, have me plan a wonderful weekend get away and a week later change his mind.
i asked my therapist "why does he do this" and her answer "he had a mood swing, what do you expect?"

so, she has had a mood swing eyes.
i am sure it will be swinging back any time.

just be realistic. ok ?

mlhb


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I chuckled at that one. Yeah, who knows when she goes back into "Monday Night" mode. My housemate's theory is that she just has never learned how to properly vent her stress. And, the mood swings are a major reason why I don't want a serious relationship until she gets help. Until I feel like I don't have to walk on eggshells around her 24/7, what's the point?

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{{{eyes}}} You're getting more attractive all the time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, cat. She may be seeing that, and I doubt it will change her moving away in a couple of months. However, it may give the foundation for something down the road, assuming she learns to deal with life a lot better.

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forgive me for saying this, but it will take years for her to get to a healthy point even if that is what she desires to do. she has shown no signs that she desires to change anything.

i really hope that you don't decide to wait years for her to become someone healthier. i hope she goes away to college, and in time, while she is away, you meet someone who is your equal and who doesn't need saving or to be taken care of like a daughter.

sorry, just being honest here.
i don't have a lot of warm fuzzy love for you ex.

i felt the same you did for some time until my therapist told me his patterns would keep repeating, that if i gave a second chance i would be giving a 3rd and a 4th and a 5th, etc... and that i would be waiting years. that put it into perspective for me!

mlhb


God first, family second, and all else will fall into place.

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