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I've said many times that I won't wait indefinitely. After she leaves for college, I plan to eventually start dating (I don't have an exact time frame for that, it could be 3 months, it could be 3 weeks, it could be a year) and I'm certainly not waiting the three years until she graduates. I think I'll know well before the three years are up if she plans to actually make some changes. If she doesn't, then hopefully she and I can remain friends, but the intimate relationship we had will be permanently gone. If she does, then she will at least be back in the running.

I think I've gotten a pretty clear picture of how you feel about my ex. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Well, I think the main thing we have been posting for eyes is to get him to start working on himself - FOR himself. That is why I say he gets more attractive - he's learning how to stand on his own, like himself, and treat himself better. When he meets the woman he'll spend the rest of his life with, he'll have a boatload of skills in reserve to help set up the happiest marriage ever.

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i agree with you cat on those things.

"when he meets the woman"
yes, i do not believe he has met that woman yet. and i DEFINITELY DO NOT BELIEVE that woman will be his ex.

mlhb

eyes: don't mean to be so blunt about your ex, i just don't want to see you get continually kicked in the heart like i did with exbf.


God first, family second, and all else will fall into place.

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Yeah, it's always fascinated me that, with so many millions of people in the world, we tell ourselves that we need to stick only with the people we know - duds or not.

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With the exception of perhaps some major updates, I am dropping this thread. I do not believe that the feedback is useful to me at this point, as it has just become repetitious. I appreciate everything that everyone has told me to this point, and it weighs heavily into my thinking.

Best of luck to all.

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Well, its been about 10 days or so, and I figured I'd just pop in with an update.

First, I think I am fully ready for my ex to move. My feelings for her haven't changed, however there is a lot of work I want to do on myself, and I allow myself to be constrained while she lives in the house. For those who follow Al Turtle, I think my lizard is still not comfortable with her.

I have also come to believe that any reconciliation is likely many months down the road, and it is no longer the same priority to me it was as recently as 2 weeks ago. I believe that I am content to let her new relationship play out as it will, and to just go about my own life. As one of the many posters on my wall says..."It is my job to take care of me!" and that is my focus.

There is a woman who works in the same building as me in whom I have become interested. We've had some interaction, and I find her funny, smart, and cute as all get-out. We seem to have a number of things in common, too. I also don't believe I'm ready for a serious relationship now, and she said that she just got out of a "hideous" divorce, too (she said they filed in October, 2006 and just signed the final papers last week) and she may not be interested, either. Now, while I'm not looking for a relationship, cultivating a friendship is another story. So, we'll see where that goes. It actually feels to be good to talking to this woman an not feeling guilty about it (i.e., really feeling single).

As for my ex, she still does not seem to want to believe that OM was working on her for months before the divorce. She really seems to believe that his interest in anything other than friendship started after the divorce. The one question she has not been willing to answer is "How soon after the divorce did he start saying 'Don't worry, baby, I'll always be here for you. I love you. You'll be fine with me.'?" And, I think she's a very intelligent woman. I think she'll figure it out eventually. And, its her problem, not mine. I give their relationship very little thought these days. It is what it is.

Oh, and in what I call a little bit of karma, OM's appendix burst last weekend and he had to have surgery. While I'd hardly wish anyone dead and I'm glad he survived, I didn't shed any tears over his discomfort. Oh, and for a bit of his character...he didn't want to call any of his male friends to take him to the hospital because he didn't want to appear to be non-manly to them. Also, his biggest upset was that he couldn't go drinking on St. Patrick's Day. Oh yeah, he's a catch. smile

I do have her move-out date, which will be in the 2nd week in May. As I said, I'm very ready for it. The stress levels have been way down when she's been away a lot recently. And I've planned three little trips for myself to visit friends, something I probably wouldn't have done while married. And I continue to do a lot of reading, see my therapist, and practice the skills I want to learn.

Well, that's it. If anything major happens, I'll give another update.

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Eyes,
It is nice to hear a much healthier attitude out of you!
Please tell me this woman at work is a little closer to your OWN age??!!

:-)

mlhb


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Originally Posted by mlhb
Eyes,
It is nice to hear a much healthier attitude out of you!
Please tell me this woman at work is a little closer to your OWN age??!!

:-)

mlhb

Honestly, I have no idea how old she is, although my guess would be mid-late 30s. She has 2 kids who were in the office the other day and looked to be in the 8-12 range (I don't think I'm very good at guessing kids ages).

And I'm really not looking at her as any sort of long-term prospect at this point. I'm honestly not sure if I want to take on someone else's kids, especially when they came from a 'hideous' divorce. Right now I'm looking for a friend, and then we'll see.

And Michelle, you're the one who worries about my XW's age, not me. I think we just have different views on the subject. As my therapist puts it, you can be an adult at 21 and a child at 50. Physical age is not the telling factor. My thinking is generally in line with his on this subject.

I just spoke to the XW before she got on her plane to head back here. She seemed to be in a decent mood, which is good, however we'll see if a 6 hour plane flight changes that. One of my co-workers said "I'm sure you're happy she's coming home" and my reaction was basically "That depends on what sort of mood she is in." Honestly, if she's going to come home and complain about things, she could just as well stayed and I would be just as happy. If she's going to come home and work on being my friend then yes, I am happy she's coming home. She did thank me in advance for coming to pick her up tonight. That's a little progress.

I realized that when she moves away, it could conceivably be the last time I ever see her. I think that's unlikely, as I don't think either of us wants that, and I suppose its possible. That's a fairly depressing thought to me. She's too important to me in too many ways and I think the reverse is probably true for her.

However, her life, her relationship with OM, are all her own now. It actually feels good to not be taking care of her anymore.

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Eyes,
I don't always see age as a problem, as long as two people are equally matched. I never felt you and your ex were seeing how extremely immature many of her actions have been. Maturity wise you two were not matched. Maybe in areas of similar interests you were. Most of the time, not always, but mostly, such a vast age difference ends up posing some sort of problems. That is the only reason I bring that point up.

You know what? When my now exbf got on the plane last summer to go home I knew in my heart it was the last time I was going to see him. And it was. He pushed and pulled at me over the phone right up until this past January. But we never physically saw each other again. And now we have not communicated either. And actually, that is the only thing that has been helping me to heal and be able to get myself ready to move on. I could not do that while there was still some sort of communication.

Her leaving will not be a bad thing for you and your life. You'll see.

mlhb


God first, family second, and all else will fall into place.

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As I said, I think I'm ready for her to go. I think I want the space to heal and rebuild my life. She made her big public announcement about her new boyfriend yesterday, and I'll admit that even though I knew about it, I've still let myself feel hurt over this.

I hear that you think she is very emotionally immature. I see it similarly, and I also see that in many ways, I think I was very emotionally immature. The big difference is that, right now, I think I am working harder than she is on gaining some emotional maturity. That doesn't mean she won't six months from now.

I hear that you think that her leaving my life would be a good thing. I look at it differently. You constantly come across to me as assuming she is your exbf in female form. Again, I see it differently. Sure, there may be some similarities, maybe a lot of similarities, and they are still two unique individuals. I don't recall how long you said you were with your exbf, however there is 10 years of our lives invested in this relationship, and she is still the most important person in the world to me. At this point in time, I do not see any way where not having her in my life in some fashion would be good. Who knows how I'll feel six months from now. One of the reasons I am cutting way down on my posts here is that you come across to me as constantly wanting to invalidate my feelings for her, and I believe that is a huge "take" from me.

At any rate, let her have her fun while I do some serious work. Let her find out what life is like without me. Maybe this guy is just as codependent as I was and they have a great dysfunctional relationship together. Maybe not and he gets fed up in 3 months. Its their problem, not mine. While she does that, I will be preparing for my next relationship, be it a month from now or six months or a year, and next time I'll do everything I can to get it right from the beginning.

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Eyes,

She just seems to be very similar is all. Yes, I do agree that every person is unique. I did not have 10 years invested, only a about a year and a half to 2 years. April 06 through this past January.

I apologize if I am coming across strong. I guess I just don't like to see people hurt or continually getting hurt. I feel like you will continually get hurt if you hang onto something that she is not. But you obviously are free to make your choices.

I don't want to be the reason you don't want to post so I will bow out here gracefully as AGG has chosen to do.

Be healthy and take care of YOU!

mlhb


God first, family second, and all else will fall into place.

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I have been doing a lot of thinking about things, and I think I am going to do a full NC after she moves to Texas. I'll send her alimony checks and that will be the only contact I initiate. If she wants to initiate contact (and I think its likely she will), I'll make a decision then how to respond. She's threatened repeatedly (yes, Michelle, I know its her controlling ways. :)) that if I don't have contact with her she will forget about me. Yet every time I tell her I want no contact she tells me that's not what she wants, and every time I cut off contact she re-initiates it.

I want her to know what she gave up, and I don't think that will happen as long as I keep being her life line. And without the distraction of her, I think I'll be able to work on myself more. Yes, I have a huge fear of her being out of my life forever, and I've realized that I'd rather have no contact with her than constant bad contact with her. Its funny, I've told her that as long as there is breath in me, she'll never be alone in the world, and even the no-contact doesn't change that in my mind. If there was a crisis, I'd break this rule in a heartbeat. However, for day to day stuff, she needs to rely on OM or other friends for a while. She chose him over me, she can live with the consequences of it.

As I've read and has been pointed out to me, she probably misses me as much as I miss her...or she would if I would ever just let her go. So, when she moves, I'm letting her go. If she comes back, great. Then we can work on what, if anything, we have left. If she doesn't, at least I'll have an answer and can move on myself.

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Sounds like a plan. smile

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Hey, I've got a not-date!

There this cute woman who works in the same building as me with whom I've been chatting with over the last couple of weeks. Like me, she's recently divorced, although hers seems to have been much uglier than mine (she used the term 'hideous') mostly because there were kids involved. Anyway, my employees heard me talking about how I found her cute and fun to talk with, so they took it upon themselves to ask her to lunch for me. Gee, thanks, ladies. Well, she says she's nowhere near ready for a new relationship, and frankly, neither am I, and we do like each other, so we're going to just have a casual friendly lunch, and take things extremely slowly.

BTW, none of this means I'm giving up on my ex. However, I realize that the process of reconciliation with her is likely to be a long one with very uncertain results. I still plan to go no-contact with my ex when she moves out of my house and give me time to learn to not be in love with her, and give her time to figure out her feelings for me. For instance, yesterday she tells me that the new guy "Is not more important than you, he's just important differently." Yeesh. So, let's see after a month or two of not talking to me, not hearing from me, not getting e-mails or texts from me, just an alimony check in the mail, how important she really thinks I am. And because I'm still in love with my ex, having a "not-date" is all I want at this point. I don't want to make anyone my rebound.

Hey, its a start.

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Well, yesterday was her move-out day. OM came from Texas to help, and I helped pack the truck, too. They are supposed to be ready to pack the truck at 11 AM, it actually doesn't get started until 2 PM. Okay, so I get to the house, OM is there doing something with the truck. I say hi, he doesn't particularly acknowledge me, and he's busy with something. I go into the house, the loading goes pretty smoothly. Its not just me helping. My housemate and another guy are helping, too. I hand him stuff, we don't want to make a lot of small talk, I think I'm there to do a job more than anything. I'm not feeling angry or bitter or anything. I looked at him and just thought "What a sad, pathetic man you are. To be the sort of man that has to chase married women. Why did I waste any time hating you?"

The ex bought lunch for us, as I'm sitting at the computer eating mine (that's when I posted earlier) they are sitting with each other on the steps. They are chatting, and he's telling her to finish her food. She says "I don't want to be a fatty!" He says "You're not fat." I chuckled to myself...they will have this discussion more than once. The loading was the longest I interacted with OM, and my impression was that he's an arrogant little general who gets off on giving orders.

Anyway, he goes to drive off the truck, and the trailer hitch falls off. I don't know if it was something he did, or something the guy from the truck company who had to come out to fix and earlier issue did. I hope to god that her car doesn't fall off in transit. Her car is one of 2,500 of that model in the WORLD. I think she'd kill him if that happened. Seriously. Scissors in the chest probably.

So, the ex is upset because she can't find a couple of the cats so she can say goodbye. One was outside and I got him to come in, one we finally tracked down hiding behind the washing machine. She'll miss the cats a lot. I don't even know if she said goodbye to the dog. She didn't take her out of the cage, at any rate. That stung a little, and she's always been much more of a cat person.

Finally, we get around to saying goodbye. First, she invites me to her going away dinner (my housemate said she really wanted me there) and I told her I wouldn't feel comfortable there because OM was there, and at this point, I think neither of needed the additional stress. She understood, although she was kind of disappointed. And in my mind, how would it change anything? Then, we do some small talk about her new place and how she's thinking it might make a nice investment. I think we were dodging the real goodbye.

She tells me that she has to do this for herself. I tell her that I am very proud of her for taking this chance and that I think its great. Really, I do. I am tired of the little girl version of her. I want her to be that incredible woman I always saw. The tells me how I was mean to her so many times. She says she hopes my online friends have been there for me through this, because her online friends weren't there for her, just giving her empty congratulations. Unfortunately, this came as no shock to me. And, its interesting, because a lot of online friends and real-life friends of mine have been here when I needed you, and its made this transition a heck of a lot easier. I apologized for the times I was mean, because I never meant to hurt her. I told her that I thought we both were stubborn and proud and thought that the other person would change if we just waited long enough. A bit to my surprise, she agreed. By this point, we're both fighting back tears. I told her that I really was going to keep working on myself, and she said that I had to prove it to her, which is fair enough. And its another one of those statements that I hear and think that she never wanted this to happen. I told her that I still loved her immensely and she told me she loved me too and at this point the tears are flowing from both of us. She told me that her new bf is a good man, and I told her that I wasn't going to talk about him. I just said that in a month or three months or whatever, she'd find out if I was totally wrong or if he wasn't the man she thinks he is. I tell her that if there is ever a crisis or emergency, that I would be on the first flight out to see her. And I told her again that as long as I was alive, she would never be alone in the world. I talked about how she was right back in January when she said that "this chapter is closed", and I said that it didn't mean that we couldn't write a new chapter where we got things right. She tells me that she's going to be back in town in June and she wants to see me then. I told her I couldn't guarantee that today, which she didn't like. I told her about my housemate, who recently talked to his ex-partner about coming out for a visit, and they started arguing, and he realized that he wasn't ready to see him yet...and that's been over a year. I told her that I didn't want to see her if we were just going to argue. And I think I'll be okay to see her by June...I'll have 2 1/2 months to work on myself. We are in a close embrace now, crying on each others shoulders. I tell her again I love her, and she tells me again she loves me.

She has to go, she has to get ready for her dinner...but we have one more embrace and exchange of I love you's. She tells me that she'll see me in June, and that we'll talk before then. I tell her that's fine, but its likely to be a while before she hears from me. And then she was out the door. When I got back to the office, I sent her two text messages, the last she'll hear from me until at least May 8 (I am going on strict no-contact for at least 30 days), and I don't expect her to reply. The first said "I am so very proud of you. I love you and always will. I am never going to stop trying to turn myself into someone you would like to get together with" and the second said "Goodbye for now but not forever."

She actually called later last night, I don't know if it was by accident or design. I picked up and said hello, and there was no response. It was a few minutes before the dinner and I don't know if she was going to make one last plea for me to go. They left the truck in front of the house last night and drove her car to his hotel. They pulled out sometime around 8 AM this morning, and she's gone now.

I'm sad and I'm relieved and I'm hopeful at the same time. I know she's hurt now, I'm hurt, too. I know we need time to heal. And I know she still wants me in her life, and I think she still wants me as a big part of her life. And I have to prove myself to her. And she has to prove herself to me, too...but the raw emotion, the love between us is still there, and I still believe that the end of our story is far from written.

For now, though, its a time for me to regain some mental health and to work on becoming a better man. Whether or not we ever get back together is a huge question mark and depends on her willingness to confront her issues, too. And I'm a better man for our years together, and will strive to continue to improve from here.

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{{{eyes}}} I think you did just fine! smile

Do something special for yourself tonight.

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Originally Posted by catperson
{{{eyes}}} I think you did just fine! smile

Do something special for yourself tonight.

Does "working late, then doing grocery shopping and then watching TV" count? Not much time to pamper myself until tax season is over. smile

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Please goggle borderline personality disorder. Obviously you can't diagnose her unless you are a pyschology professional but the personyou are describing has lots in common with people with this disorder. The big clue is the fear of abandonment. Even the not liking sex thing. This is a disorder that often goes undiagnosed as people with in often do not want to face it. Just do youself a favor and check it out.

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Dreamsallgone - I didn't see this until now, and someone else mentioned BPD a few weeks ago on another forum, and when I looked at the symptoms, I basically said "Holy Crow...that's her." While she hasn't been formally diagnosed, I believe she has BPD, and her sister, who has a degree in Psychology, believes she has BPD. This has totally changed the nature of my interaction with her.

I've read "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!" and am currently reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells." Next up comes "Sometimes I Act Crazy" and I'm going to sign up at BPD Central. Once I was exposed to what BPD was, so much fell into place.

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Well, its been a month since she moved out, and there have been changes galore. First, I promised myself that I was not going to be in contact with her for 30 days minimum to work on myself. I knew there would be some minimal contact, because we had to handle our taxes and a cat being shipped to her and that was all I intended. Well, she was attempting to be in contact with me frequently, I was hearing from her every 3-4 days. While some was related to our "business", she was also keeping me updated on life, and she made it clear she was keeping up no my Live Journal, where I was "leaking" progress reports about the work on myself. From my side, the contact was two businesslike e-mails, and that was it.

As mentioned in the post above, I became exposed to BPD, and realize that she likely is suffering from this disorder. This allowed me to suddenly understand so many of her actions, and allowed me to instantly forgive what she was done (well, maybe not instantly) as I suddenly understood the origin. I continued to learn about this, work on myself, and do things for myself. While I think about her a lot, she does not rule my life.

This all changed this week. Sunday I had to ship the cat out to her, and this was the cat that always slept with us, and to which we are both very attached. She used a pet transport service to get her, and when I was giving her to the driver he could see that I was quite upset, and asked me if I was going to miss the cat so much, why was I sending her? I told him "Because I made a promise, and because I love my ex-wife more than I love this cat." I also made a LiveJournal post about this.

Well, Monday morning at 6 AM the phone rings. I don't answer it (mostly because I was sleeping and my brain didn't register what was going on before it went to voice mail). There's a message from my XW, who is in tears, saying she had just read the post, and that things are hard on her, too, and that she's not doing well, and that she misses everything and wants to know how I'm doing just wants to talk to someone she knows. Then, I check my e-mail, and she's responded to my LJ post and in there says "Thank you for keeping your promise. It really means the world to me." I wasn't sure how to respond. Thankfully I had a phone session scheduled with Al Turtle that morning, and I discussed it with him, and he suggested making an appointment with her to talk. I really didn't know what was going on, and took his advice, and we decided to talk in the early afternoon. We talked for an hour and a half, and it seemed clear to me that she is not very happy where she is. She doesn't seem to like the area much, and the people are very different from what she knows, and she really misses everything from here. She says things are going okay with her new BF, but she doesn't see him much. She actually seems to spend a lot of time with her BF's DD, and I think that's because she lives near BF's DD's mother and because they have split custody. It was actually a very nice conversation, and we really didn't touch on "us" too much, although I did let her know that I was still interested. It was nice, and I realized that I wasn't distraught or anything, and could probably work on being friends with her.

Well, that was fine...until yesterday. Yesterday I was on a plane and while I was on it, she left me a voice mail letting me know the cat had arrived safely. I responded with a text saying that I was happy it arrived safely, and that, on an unrelated note, I was beginning to "get it" and that I work on it every day. Well, she instantly calls back and wants to talk. I actually meant to put the call through to voice mail, and didn't. First she starts off talking about how she's happy the cat is there and she's adjusting, and then she breaks down...she's having money troubles, issues with her student loans, and is very depressed and suicidal (very common in BPD sufferers, and she's had suicide attempts in the past), so I start talking with her, using that I am learning to help. We start working on strategies to help her work out her tuition issues. She's talking about how none of her friends are there for her, and how lonely she is. Suddenly she blurts out "You didn't even ask me how things are going with BF!" I said "I didn't ask because its really none of my business, and if you want to share, I'll listen." Well, things aren't going well, she thinks he liked the idea of her more than actually being with her, and she thinks he doesn't have time for a relationship with her or anyone else. I tell her again that if they aren't together, I'm interested, but that I won't take the role he took in our relationship and she has to resolve things with him before we even talk. Besides, I don't even know how she feels about me. She says "If you want the truth, I still love you and I really miss you!" Well, this kind of changes the tone of the conversation a bit, although I keep stressing that she needs to resolve her current relationship first before I would be interested in anything, and that we need to take things very slowly. She's also very fixated on wanting to finish school (I think she's afraid I'd tell her she had to move back here, which is actually not what I want now). There is such a strong bond between us, and I think it took her being away from her for her to really see how strong. We exchanged several "I love you"'s in both Monday's and yesterday's conversations.

Now, what does this all mean? I really don't know. I think it means we are moving towards getting back together, and I think its going to be a long process. I still have some healing to do, and since I strongly suspect the presence of BPD, I have to learn a lot more about that. I'm hoping that she will be open to therapy, because otherwise this could be a deal-breaker. She has to resolve her relationship with the BF first. We have to work on the logistics of a LDR. So, its not an easy task. And that's okay with me. To me, she's worth the effort. I'm not sure what comes next. I'm leaving the next contact up to her. I doubt I'll have to wait long, and I'm still wrapping my mind around everything, so I'm taking it slowly, and attempting not to read to much into things.

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