I know, I thought it was brilliant too!

AGG

Yup.. Or we can really throw Michelle for a loop by saying Shabbat Shalom... Oh, this is fun, the possibilities are endless!!

AGG

Stacy, this is way WAY beyond MB territory, you are dealing with a total psycho. MB isn't going to help you with his issues.

I am sure you did the right thing - Married less than a year, no kids (I assume) - lock the doors, divorce him as fast as you can, and count your blessings. I realize how awful this must be for you, I am truly sorry.

AGG

thanks agg and eye...
no having fun with me! all these jewish terms, what the heck! the blonde can't take it!

this thread is turning into a bad joke..
2 jews and a baptist walk into a bar....
haha

mlhb

Wow...I have to listen to you guys more often. I'm expecting a nice relaxing evening at home, and out of the blue the ex calls to thank me for following up with the insurance woman and to tell me about her day. I was 100% not expecting to hear from her this weekend since I wasn't planning to call her. I know how important it is for her to have her space. We only talked for a few minutes (she's tired, I'm tired, we've both been up since before 5 AM) and I am seriously shocked that a) she called at all, and b) that she actually thanked me for what I did after I was short with her. This makes me rethink my whole life...well, maybe not my whole life, but at least this whole "being a pushover" thing.

when you stand up for yourself and make HER do HER stuff HERSELF, well, i think it scares her. i am sure she is thinking that she is going to "lose" you if she doesn't play nice.

not sure if i worded that right. let me see...
personally, my opinion is i think you should move on. i think she is a user and a manipulator honestly. i think she has had you right where she wants you for many years. she knows you don't want to lose her and she takes advantage of that. i am thinking she is thinking that you are getting tired of her crap and by standing up and making her do the things she is responsible for herself, that she is getting scared. she doesn't want to lose you as her fall back guy so i do believe that as you stand up for yourself and have a back bone she is going to kiss your a** so that you will still be there for her. i don't see it as her "coming around" because personally, i don't think she will. i think she will use you and manipulate you as long as she can and when she can't anymore, i think she's going to be gone to find another man she can do that too.

so, i definitely think you need to have the backbone and make her live her own life and not depend on you AT ALL FOR ANYTHING PERIOD. don't do this for HER, do it for YOU, so that you can start to detach from her and really work on you and with moving on with your life. do NOT be surprised if after a while of doing this she starts pulling away when she sees her manipulation is not working anymore.

mlhb

you also keep saying that some of the things you are doing for her are things you would do for "any friend that needed something".

well, i don't think she is just any friend. she is a "friend" who has been using and manipulating. any friend that you had had doing that to you for all these years i don't think you would probably choose to even have as a friend anymore. and i am sure a friend like that you would not do anything for.

keep it in perspective. she is NOT like any other friend.

mlhb

Michelle,

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware of how you feel about her. And I'm fully aware you may be right. And, I'm also fully aware you may be wrong. I will find out for myself over the coming months.

Let's be clear on one thing, too. No one can be used of manipulated by another person unless they choose to be used or manipulated. While I am quite aware of her using/manipulating behavior, she has generally brought enough to the table that I have allowed it. I stated in the beginning that there were issues from both sides that contributed to the D. They certainly weren't all mine, and her manipulation was one of them.

You want me to change and grow for me, and I want to do that, yet you seem to discount the possibility that she might change, too. I don't know if this is colored by your experiences with your WH, or just a gut feeling, or something else. However, I am already seeing changes in a lot that she is doing and I do think she's slowly changing. Now, whether there will be enough change for me to want a future with her, or whether we will even like the people we become after these changes is impossible to predict at this point. However, I'm not going to give up a month into the process just because she hasn't become a perfect person yet. I'm far from where I want myself to be, why would I expect her to have arrived already, too?

I had a bunch more written, and I'm deleting it, because I don't think I was making a point very well in it. I'll sum up by saying that the best feedback I can get is constructive criticism as to actions I have undertaken or am proposing to undertake, not guessing what she might or might not do in the future. The future is unwritten.

that is fair enough.

my feedback is coming from the experiences i have had with manipulative WOMEN who have been in my life in one form or another, not from my exh believe it or not.

i am a woman and i know quite well how we think and function.

you are getting this from my woman's point of view.

mlhb

Okay, here's a for instance where I could use some feedback. My Southwest "DING" just came up with a $35 each way fare from Las Vegas to Tucson in May, after tax season for me and after she wraps up her finals for this semester. Now, we have been talking about going to Tucson to see the cacti down there. I love cacti, although she's even more fanatic about it (in fact, today she's going to a cactus garden in LA with her friends...you can spy on her there, AGG. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) I realize I don't want to just go ahead and book tickets without asking her. Frankly, that's manipulative on my part. The question is whether or not its even a good idea to propose it to her in the first place (i.e., "Hey, there's a great deal to Tucson. Wanna go down for a couple of days and wander through cacti?") And certainly I wouldn't offer to pay her airfare, although my first instinct is to say I'd cover the hotel room/rental car, because if I went on my own I'd have to pay these costs anyway. And I don't think its a good idea to just book it for myself, because its something I'd enjoy doing with her (assuming she wanted to go) and I wouldn't to "assert my independence" and exclude her from the experience and just book a ticket for myself when this great fare disappears in 12 hours. Now, if she said "no, I'm not interested", I still might book it for myself and "assert my independence" that way, however I might choose a slightly different agenda while I'm there.

Just curious what people think about this idea. And, given that its 10 weeks in the future, I realize that there's absolutely no way of knowing if we'll have fallen passionately in love again by then, or if we won't be able to stand the sight of each other (although I suspect it will be somewhere between those two extremes).

It turns out that one of my employees and also an employee of my biggest client have very similar backgrounds to my XW. Either that means its more common than I thought, or I just have a knack for attracting that sort of person into my life. Anyway, these two women have provided me very valuable feedback because they can relate to her in a way that does not come to me naturally. Its also helping me understand them better.

While I understand that you know how women think better than I ever will, if you or the women you have encountered don't have her background, there are definitely going to be differences in the patterns. I guess that's why I'm not asking for predictions on her behavior. For instance, if Guy #1 tells me "Geez, my mom was a classic martyr, too, and here's how that affected my relationships with women", that's much more valuable to me than Guy #2 who says "Don't be a wuss. Just go out and find some other broad." Guy #2 doesn't understand what's going in my head. Guy #1's perspective is much more useful to me. Now, Guy #2 may have some great ideas, and I'm going to listen to him, I'm just going to filter him differently.

Hopefully that's more clear. And, btw, I really don't know all of your background. If you come from a background of abandonment, your words will mean more to me, too. However, what I've observed before is that your background and thought processes are very different than hers. I understand her thought processes a lot better than I did in the past, I'm just trying to learn how to deal with them in a more productive way, and whether dealing with them in a more productive way is worth the effort.

well, i will answer a few things for you.
first off, i would NOT ask her about a trip that is at least 10 weeks in the future. there is no way she can give you an answer on that right now seeing she will be away, with you out of site out of mind, for that length of time. who knows who she will have in her life at that stage of the game. you asking her to go with you is your way of hanging on to her and giving you a false sense of security. she says yes, she wants to go, and you will automatically think, "well, good, at least i know she will be in my life until at least that point". i think it is a bad idea to ask her.

now, i WOULD book it for myself. go for it! that is a great flight deal. i did a lot of flying this last year and a half going to see exbf. that is one good darn deal. it is something you have wanted to do, so, DO IT. don't even think twice.

as far as my background goes, i grew up with an alcoholic father who had many affairs on my mother. i remember living a life of walking on eggshells and fearing saying a word. my background gives me a problem in enforcing boundaries. when i did try to enforce boundaries, ie, i remember giving my father info on alcoholism and begging him to get help, etc. he got so mad at me he did not talk to me for weeks. i was only a kid at the time. this type of behavior showed me that if i tried to enforce boundaries, people would leave me. i an still working on being strong enough to say "if i have boundaries and i enforce them, and the person in my life leaves then they didn't belong there to begin with. that says they do not respect me or my feelings". my parents slept in different rooms from the time i was probably 11 til they finally divorced when i was around 16. they lived separate lives, had separate bills and bank accounts. and guess what? the same exact things ended up happening in my marriage.

i married someone who was literally abandoned by his bio father only to years later try to find a place in his life again. my ex was VERY manipulative. my ex is almost a male version of yours in some of the things he did and said. my ex does what is best for him period. he calls it survival.
i begged him to get counseling for years. we went to 2 different marriage counselors who both said he needed extensive individual counseling. he refused. there comes a point in time where you must take responsibility for you OWN life and stop blaming your past and your upbringing on it. we are adults who choose how we live and how we treat people, period. we either learn from things or we repeat them.

ironically, for some reason, i do find that i seem to attract men who cheat. that is something i need to work on, and i completely believe it is because i have always had trouble enforcing boundaries. once i love someone, i don't want them to leave, so i fear if i enforce my boundaries, they will. i'm growing in this area though and getting better. it is a process.

mlhb

Michelle,

As for 10 weeks in the future, there is no "out of sight, out of mind." She will (unless something drastically changes) be living in the house at the time. He scheduled move to Texas would be sometime (anywhere from 2 weeks to a month or so) after the proposed trip.

Thanks for the background. Very informative. I always thought I came from a "normal" background and, as I've learned, "normal" is a relative term. My parents have been married 52 years, which is another reason that the divorce is hard on me, as I feel like I've let them down in some ways. This is very typical for me. As I've mentioned, I grew up with a terrible self-image, because I never felt what I was doing was good enough. For instance, I am probably the smartest of the three children, however because of my undiagnosed ADD (hey, it was the 60s and 70s), my grades never reflected it. I've also been overweight much of my life. I got a constant "You're so smart, why don't you do better?" and "You're such a good looking guy under all that weight" and similar comment from (mostly) my mother. These were comments made out of love, however I trace my "not important" status back to when I was 2 and my little brother was born. My mom had serious back problems during the pregnancy, and so after he was born, she was confined to bed for some time. So, as a 2 year old, I don't even drop from #1 to #2 on the attention getting scale, I drop to #3. How devastating! And I was constantly compared to my sister, who was a workaholic and got great grades. At any rate, as smart and talented as I was, I grew up not believing in myself, and not trusting anyone else. I basically lived my life waiting for the other shoe to drop.

My mom is very smart and creative, and has always had a career. She is also a huge martyr/manipulator. Frankly, one of the reasons I live 2,000 miles from my parents is that even at age 46, she still wants to run my life. And yet, I ended up with a woman much like her. My dad was always the more passive one in the relationship. He didn't do a lot with the kids. It wasn't that he didn't love us, he loves us very much, he just didn't always show it in the most effective ways. However, we always had a roof over our head, we always had food, we always had money in an emergency, and he was always there for us, he just wasn't generally good at showing affection....does any of this sound familiar to you?

Even though they have been married 52 years, my parents relationship has had its ups and downs. They argue sometimes, they get frustrated with each other, yet they have some very core values and beliefs that keep them together and keep the relationship strong. Interestingly, though, my mom is talking about them getting some counseling soon, and my dad is 78 and she's 72. He's been sick a lot recently, in and out of the hospital, and being his caretaker has taken a big toll on my mom. Of course, being my mom, she will give and give of herself even when it hurts her...again, does this sound familiar?

In early posts I've talked about how my XW is run by her fear of abandonment. In fact, there have been parts of her trying to create this split for years, and the fact that I wouldn't leave I'm sure messed with her beliefs. Even now it does. She did perhaps the worst things she could do to me (the A a few years ago, the D now) and yet I stuck around and kept loving her. Now, I certainly haven't always done it in effective ways, and I know that the fact that even now, I'm still around and still loving her, really messes with her internal beliefs. And I'm not sorry about that. I think the only way she will get past some of these is if someone actually believes in her and doesn't abandon her and, more importantly, that she can internalize this. Its why I've been patient with her, and continue to be patient with her. I realize its not my job (or even within my ability) to "save" her, and I love her and want her to have a great life. Had I realized where I was being ineffective in the past, we might be in a different spot now. And, that just is what it is. However, that doesn't mean its too late to get things on the right track. Despite her fear of abandonment, she hasn't run yet. She is doing what she can to stand on her feet and be self-sufficient. Yet the very prospect of that absolutely terrifies her, because to her, self-sufficient also means "alone." She doesn't want to depend on anyone because she'll just get abandoned in the long run anyway. Would some IC help her on this? I think so, and I'll still encourage her to get it, and she has to make that decision on her own.

I believe that she "uses and manipulates" me because in her core beliefs, its only a matter of time until I abandon her anyway, so why bother? And I'm aware of this, and have let her get away with it, perhaps too much. I am realizing that enforcing boundaries is critical here. This is why when I see "little cracks in the ice", its so important to me. They seem small, and they are different than what she has done for a long time, and it tells me that she is seeing things differently, she just isn't sure how to react. It may be that the ice refreezes, it may be that it thaws completely. I'm just trying out the best way to bring the heat. And also how to do it without burning myself badly.

Hi, EOP, I look forward to going through your thread, thanks for the invite. You asked me about my perspective when I was 30 married to a 36 year old. I didn't see it as an obstacle we couldn't get past <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It does make it more difficult to get both of our input into decisions, as he has more experience in some things than I do, so he doesn't value my opinion as being as equal. But I see that happen with folks the same age, too. Also, at the time I would have liked to have a third child, but he said he was too old to have another, but that's probably a personal thing. As I read up here, I'll probably think of some other things.

ears - 30 and 46, right? Not 30 and 36. Looks like you two got married at 22/38. We got married at 22/39 (12 days later it was 23/39), so right about the same age.

Thanks for coming by!

I agree 100%. Eye, this would in fact be the right thing to do for someone in your shoes. You probably can't see it, because you are so used to being her dad/servant, but this is exactly what a normal healthy single guy should do. Book the flight, take the trip, and enjoy. She is her own person, a single woman, and the sooner you start treating her as such, the better.

OK, I am off to the cactus exhibit...

AGG

I'm almost certainly going myself. Just reading the brochures gave me an "I want to do this" feeling. So, its not dependent on her going. I'm just wondering if it makes sense to ask her to go, too, since she would likely enjoy it as well. Like I said, its not a free ride for her, and it would be something nice to do together.

Maybe you can tell her in a few weeks and see if she wants to go too. That way it won't look like you are structuring your life around her.

AGG

Yeah, I thought about that...then comes the "Well, why didn't you tell me about the good fare" question? "Uh, because I wasn't giving a darn about you at the time? That's really my only dilemma.

She doesn't need to know about your fare.

AGG