I just got the final papers today (well, yesterday, but I was out of town and didn't check mail until today) and oddly enough, its okay. It's just a stop on the journey. I can already see changes in her, as I'm sure she can see them in me. We have a long road ahead of us, and I'm not certain where it will take us, and I do know we love each other, and with love, anything is possible.

Well, things took another turn today, not sure if its good or bad. First, we had a great day yesterday, basically hanging out together. Today we get together for lunch, not until 2:30, which is pretty late. First, she tells me she's getting out of her company (yay!) in the next few months. This will reduce a lot of stress in her life. And, she'll be getting some payment out of it, so my alimony will be somewhat lower. I'm actually thrilled about that. Then, she tells me that she got accepted to the school she wants to go to in another state (near OM), however its more expensive than the schools here, and she has to be there 12 months to get in state rates, and she's not sure if she can afford it. She says maybe she'll go for a year and just work or something, or do studying so she can get lower rates. However, since the DA says I only pay for her school for 3 years, and at a rate based on in state tuition here, then she'd have to finish everything in 2 years, and she doesn't know if she can do it. Now, I love this woman and want her to get the best education possible, and at the same time she's the one who dumped me, so she isn't getting anything more than that to which I agreed. And she of course claims I'm not happy for her, because it would be upsetting to me if she was out of state (what, now I'm not supposed to be honest about how I feel?). We then get into how she doesn't feel how sharing the bed and the bathroom isn't "playing at being married" (my term). I told her we need distance, and maybe the best idea was for her to get her own place. She then launches into how she thought she was safe at the house, and wasn't going to be "thrown out into the cold." This also comes up when she says that if she ever started dating someone, she wouldn't feel safe, because I might throw her out of the house. Geezus...insecure much?

Found out more about OM. She still says they are just close friends, however she adds that all his friends think he should date her, and all her friends think she should date him, however she doesn't want the pressure of having to date anyone. She's also encouraging me to date again, and I was quite blunt in saying that I'm not ready to date anyone and am not sure when I will be, because I have too much work to do on myself. Its interesting that she's pushing me to date. Catperson said early on that that would "give her permission" to date. So, since I DO have a lot of work to do on myself, and I'm not looking now, she's going to have to make the first move.

I got a version of the ILYBINILWY speech, too. Basically, she needs me to be her friend now, not some guy trying to date her. I get that, and I know that's where she needs me, too, and I told her if she and I tried to date now, it would be a train wreck (somehow she heard this as if she tried to date anyone, but we got by that). She also told me that her trust level in me was so low now that it was very hard for her to say she loves me. She wants me to always be her best friend, though. I'm not quite sure how you reconcile these two, and winning back her trust is a top priority to me.

I also was very blunt with her about getting counseling. I'll take it as a semi-positive sign that she didn't say "no", which she's always done in the past. She didn't say yes, either, and one looks for little things.

The best part was when she was saying that she somewhat felt that my working on myself was a "ploy" to get her back. I told her I was doing it for me (true) and also pointed out that if I was doing it to make me the most wonderful man she could ever imagine, would that be so terrible?

So, it was a stressful time, and not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. It really clarified where we stand. There is nothing romantic even on the horizon, and she doesn't trust me. So, it gives me an idea how to approach this. I'm just going to keep plan A'ing it, trying to meet her ENs and working on winning back her trust. I have several months before she moves away. By that point, I think we'll both have a much better picture of whether or not there is even a potential future for us. If there's not, then if/when she moves, I will probably cut off contact with her for some time. I'm too in love with her right now to deal with things rationally.

BTW, my gut still tells me that her first choice would be to be together with me, and that she is way too afraid of being hurt again to even consider it for the present. The very fact that she interacts with me so much and didn't run for the hills right away says a lot. She's testing me constantly now, and expecting me to slip up and fall back, and not willing to believe anything yet. Its hard for me to blame her for that, either.

I know there are probably those of you who think that I should just give up on things at this point, and she's too amazing a woman for me to do that. I am willing to wait for her as long as it takes. It doesn't mean that someone else won't enter my life and I'll change my opinion, and it does mean that right now I still love her too much to quit her.

Sounds like amazing progress. Please don't let her talk you into 'needing' to help her pay for more than that. I can see that possibility from here.

That's confusing. It makes me feel like she has an agenda in saying it, as in my previous comment.

I'm not trying to minimize her feelings, and I don't know her, but this really sounds like she's...whining...for lack of a better word, so that she looks like the victim. She might sincerely feel these things, but I think she's playing on your feelings a bit by stressing ahead of time that, if you really loved her, you'd cut her some slack or else...duh duh duh, she just might backslide into an unhealthy state of mind; and it'd be all your fault for not protecting her and/or being selfish.

Glad to hear this. Maybe you'll be a good role model for her.

Honestly? If you're supposed to be her best friend, it would be you who needs to go ahead and point out that, yes, any other relationship probably would be a train wreck if she doesn't deal with her own issues first. You might point that out to her, or reiterate what you've already said.

IMO, that makes you very attractive! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Very common, actually. I hear that a lot.

It sounds like you've reached a pretty good place, as good a one as you can get to. So be proud of yourself. I love that you listen to everyone's advice, educate yourself, and are willing to trust in a C. No matter what happens, your life is looking up.

I slept terribly last night, mind racing over everything that went on. About 4 hours of sleep, split into 2 1/2 hours followed by 2 hours of not being to sleep, followed by 1 1/2 hours of sleep. That kind of sucks because it was after a couple of really good nights of sleep. XW and I talked this morning, and she said a lot of what she said yesterday was because she felt I was reading too much into things, and that I was going to try to get "all romantic" with her. A lot came from me posting on a journal that I had a good day Sunday. And, I did have a good day (with her) on Sunday. It wasn't a romantic day, but it was good, quality time together, we had fun, we enjoyed each other's company, we didn't fight. It was a starting point. However, I'm the one who keeps saying I'm not interested in romance now, and she doesn't accept that yet. I guess I shouldn't fault her for that. Actually, except for being very tired, I felt a lot better after the talk with her.

I asked her about the "ploy" thing again this morning, and she finally admitted that it wouldn't be a bad thing, she just didn't want to give me false expectations. Again, fair enough.

BTW, Catperson, regarding you thinking she has an agenda, you may be right. Before things went sour, we were supposed to go to Japan together next month. That's off now. One of her favorite places there is closing, and I got a text message from her saying "It will be so sad to never see it again." I read that as "Well, wouldn't you consider going with me (or sending her) anyway?" She's not good at asking for things directly, which always bugged me. And, as I said in my other post, there are consequences to her actions. One of those is that she figures out how to pay for school on her own. We made a deal as to what I would cover, she signed off on it, that's what she gets.

As for being her best friend and telling her that any relationship she gets into would be a wreck now, I think she knows that to some extent, and I'm also a spurned XH who partially wants to see her crash and burn (hey, I'm working on myself, I'm not perfect yet).

She also asked what she could do to make things better, and I told her she had her chance for that 4 months ago when she said no to counseling. She said that a few counseling sessions wouldn't have fixed our problems, which is probably true, and that she still needs her space to figure out her life. However, I felt better about saying it.

I also keep having to remind myself that its at least 3 months until she moves out of state, if she moves out of state at all. Who knows where things will be in 3 months. And if she goes, then we will really see how we function without the other around.

Our first date was Valentine's Day, 1999. We haven't spent the last few together because her job takes her to a convention on the east coast that is always on President's Day weekend and she's either there or on her way there on V-Day. She left last night for it (I took her to the airport). I gave her a card, didn't go for overly romantic, and did put a note in there about how we had come full circle from friends to lovers to spouses and back to friends, and about how I was working on making myself a better man, for me, and because she inspires me, and telling her that as I have always told her over the years, that I believe in her and support her dreams. I don't know how she'll take it. I did let her know beforehand that I was giving her the card, because I didn't want one of her freakouts worrying about me getting "all romantic." OM is going to be at this convention (his company is in the same industry, that's how they met) and she was talking about some things he was getting her (nothing romantic, some DVDs). She talks about him like a friend, there's never anything wistful or a faraway look in her eyes when she does. Either she's a great actress, or it may be there really isn't anything more than a close friendship between them at this point.

Things have been good the last few days. No arguments, spending some good time together, being supportive of each other. And I'm always wondering how low I took my Love Bank with her. All I can do is keep making deposits and know that they will build up over time. I have the house to myself for 3 days (our housemate is also at the same convention, although just as an attendee) and among my goals is finishing HNHN and starting to read the Five Love Languages (Men's Edition). I'll have fresh roses waiting for her at the house when she comes home Monday night, and just continue to work on myself and improving things between us.

She says she'll miss me when she's gone. I wish I totally believed that. I don't want to call her, I want her to make the first move there, and I already miss her.

Overall, I'll be happier when its the 15th.

This has been a tough few days. I haven't spoken to her since very early Thursday morning (and that was literally for a minute) and I want to pick up the phone and call her, and I promised myself I wouldn't. I need to give her some space, and I know she's with a lot of friends, and its just weird not hearing from her. OM is at the convention where she is, and the thought, irrational or not, that keeps running through my mind is "Because I'm not getting in contact and he's there, she's thinking 'To heck with EOTP, I'll just spend more time with OM.'" On the other hand, I suppose it could be that she really misses me, and she doesn't want to be the one to make the first move. I just wonder if she's even thinking about me. I wonder if she wonders what I'm doing as much as I wonder what she's doing.

I'll admit I haven't given your thread a thorough review but it seems to me the best thing you can do for yourself is concentrate on what you need to do to build your self esteem.

You're concentrating on getting your ex-wife back and I think that side tracks you from having to work on yourself. Apart from driving yourself crazy wondering about what your ex is doing and who she's with you're not getting on with the work of healing from the divorce, learning about yourself, and becoming a better person with whom one might want to have a relationship.

Focus on yourself and what you need. Don't include your ex-wife in that.

I agree. Stop obsessing on her and work on yourself. Confident people are irresistable. Become irresistable. Work on yourself. Do you volunteer at anything? Find something to volunteer at. If you don't know how, call United Way (unitedway.org) and ask them to help you find something. This is the #1 way to start working on yourself - helping others. Call today.

I appreciate the feedback from both of you. You're right, the primary focus of this has to be on me first and then on us, if there is actually going to be an "us." I am working on myself, and that doesn't stop the lonely. Its sort of nice to have the house to myself this weekend and just concentrate on me, and at the same time, it would be nice to have someone around with whom to share things. The time alone has given me time to finish HNHN, I've started The Five Love Languages. Some people I know from Canada are in town this weekend, and I'll be getting together with them. I'm doing what I can to do things for myself, and after 9 years, its a challenge.

I also got myself a new HDTV that I've been wanting and a PS3 this weekend. One nice thing about this is I don't have to answer financially to anyone (and yes, its okay, I can afford these...lol).

Not obsessing it a challenge for me, as I have mild OCD. Of course, resisting the urge to obsess is one of the things I want to improve about myself. Its not easy, that's for sure.

Catperson, I like your suggestion. I will do that.

Hmm..not sure why my post didn't show up. Anyway, Catperson, I just filled out a volunteer application on the local United Way website. I expect they will contact me in the near future. I'm actually looking forward to it. While reading things from Al Turtle's site, he also suggests volunteer work as a good alternate source of love units, so this is definitely a step to getting my sanity back and figuring out where I am in life.

{{{Eyes}}} I'm so proud of you! Great step! I really think you will be amazed how good it makes you feel, if you approach it the right way, as in not to get something out of it, but to give. And there are so very many people out there who are barely surviving, and will be so grateful that someone takes an interest in them. Good job.

Catperson...I don't know if you've read the Five Love Languages, however my #1 language is Words of Affirmation, so your post meant a lot to me. Thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She's coming home from the east coast tonight, I'm picking her up at the airport. It will be nice to see her (she's been gone since Wednesday night). There are new roses waiting for her. We had a nice talk (about 1/2 hour) earlier today, where she again reiterated that she needs me as a friend now. She also said I shouldn't focus on proving myself to her. I told her that I wanted to re-earn her trust, and when I said proving myself, it was part of that process, that if I was acting differently with her than I had been, that I was being a true friend. I told her that I wanted to get back to being her confidante, and she said she wanted that, too.

She did tell me that its much more likely that she's going to Texas for school. She said she didn't want to talk about it much with me, because I would go all emo on her (me? emo? NEVER! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). I told her that while it wasn't easy on me, I really do want what's best for her, and that she can definitely talk to me about it. Honestly, at this point I'm pretty resigned to her going, and that just is what it is. It will be easier for me to work on myself when she's not here, and I still have 3-5 months to show her that I've made changes to myself. And, in 3-5 months, I'll know if she's working on herself, and also I'll have a much better picture of where our future might be headed.

Basically, its tough news, if not totally unexpected, and none of it changes the work I want to do on myself. I'm going to do my best not to worry about where she is going, as that's out of my control, I'm going to worry about where I am going. And if my path brings our paths back closer, so much the better.

Wow. Very impressive. I'm so amazed at the progress you've made. Give it time, and she might, too.

And...

Texas? Texas? Did you say Texas? Why aren't YOU going to Texas too? We have tens of thousands of jobs here, amazing climate, lowest cost of living in the country...just sayin'... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

catperson - I think me going to Texas would be considered a little clingy and pushy at this point. A year from now...who knows? Plus, I have my own company here. Relocating it to Texas would be a challenge, although opening a Texas branch could happen. In addition, OM is in Texas. I honestly expect that to fall apart eventually, I don't stress about it, and by the time she moves there, she may feel closer to me than him anyway...we'll just see.

Okay, here's tonight's puzzle. I'm picking her up at the airport later, and I asked her if she wanted some frozen yogurt (there's a type here that is fantastic) and her answer was "I don't know, you decide." What the heck does that mean? One of my big frustrations with her over the years was she doesn't ask for things directly. I think she's saying "Yes, I want some, but I don't want it to look like I'm making you do something else for me." However, I have no idea. Any clues?

OH, I know, I was just kidding. For your question? Go ahead and spoil her. Can't hurt to be nice to someone.

Well, I did bring her the yogurt last night. She enjoyed it. Got a really big hug when she got back and although she was tired, we had some nice conversation. She also thanked me for the flowers. Now, all that being said, when she got home, she commented "Oh, you got a new laundry sorter." I told her "Yes, I got that one for my stuff. I moved yours down into the middle bedroom." She was visibly a bit shaken by this. She got into this mode she gets in where she kept apologizing for taking too long to get ready for bed. I asked why she felt rushed. And she says "Well, you want me to put the handle down for the luggage. Do you just want me to move downstairs tonight?" I didn't, and told her so. We talked a little more before sleeping. Neither of us really wants to stop sleeping together, and we both realize we need the separation. I did say that if, on occasion, she wants to come up and stay, just for the companionship, so we can talk and watch TV or whatever, and she seemed to be interested in that. I definitely don't want that to be an every day event, as that defeats the purpose of her moving down anyway.

We talked more this morning, too. I can tell that the separating rooms is going to be tough on her (not that it will be easy on me). And that makes me realize even more that it needs to be done. If she never has to see what she's missing, she never has to want it back. For instance, one of our cats (my cats?) has always slept with us. Well, she won't have that anymore downstairs. I know she'll miss it. I mentioned that I went to Costco this weekend and she gave a disappointed "Oh, you went to Costco?" to me. It was a "Why didn't you ask me if I needed anything?" response. And that's not my responsibility anymore. In fact, when I went, I was careful to get virtually nothing I'd be getting just for her (i.e., no cosmetics, or drinks that only she drinks and the like). I don't consider this being mean, I consider this being necessary and part of both of our growth process.

I'd let her come back upstairs for good if she agreed to start working on us, by doing things like going through questionnaires and from there, counseling. I've also realized its too early in the process to propose this to her, even though I want to do it today. However, I think if I did this today, it would push her farther away. I've also realized that if I do get to the point where I ask, I am going to ask her to cut off contact with the guy in Texas, even if she does end up going to school there (which I know she wants to do, at least as of now). I've realized we can't work on us while she has him in her back pocket. That's another reason why I don't want to ask this now. Its just too soon. I haven't done enough work on myself yet for her to see any good reason to give up on him. I guess I'm still in the "Plan A" stage of things, and will worry about "Plan B" down the road.

My night has been somewhat stressful. My XW is pissed about the fact that I moved her laundry downstairs and feels like I'm trying to push her away. She was also still upset about me saying a couple weeks ago that she couldn't use the master bathroom (I had actually earlier told her she could, and relented). We talked about it awhile and she again was going off on how she can't open up to me because it causes a drama bomb and that she just wasn't going to share with me anymore. I did my best to listen and validate her and assure her that I didn't want to push her away and that more than anything I wanted her to open up, and to just be patient with me while I learn. I told her I wanted to understand her better and improve the communication. She told me to stop thinking 10 moves ahead (a valid criticism) and just to concentrate on being her friend. She sends such confusing messages! Its like she wants the divorce, but she doesn't want any consequences, and then when I act like we're divorced she gets angry about it. I guess I should just accept that she's confused. And I did tell her that 3 years was a drop in the bucket of life and that if she needed to be away for that, it was okay. Anyway, it was good and terrible at the same time.

I was pretty upset that she kept not wanting to make eye contact with me while we were talking. Its like she wanted to stay angry with me even when I was making sense. We ended on a good note with a hug, and I don't think there's permanent damage, and its still tough. She says she needs some time to heal now. Well, she's not the only one. I guess I'm wondering if its good that she's upset about these things. That she realizes she can't just push me around and that there are consequences to her actions. At her request, I moved her TV and DVD player into the bedroom, however the TV isn't getting cable for some reason (I will probably have to put in a service call) so she's pretty much just got the DVDs now.

Oh...I did say that people were telling me that I had to establish boundaries and really enforce the fact that we weren't together, and she told me that I was listening to stupid people who don't understand the situation and shouldn't be commenting on it. That's another statement that I have no idea how to read. I asked her where she thought we were going, and its very clear that she has no idea at this point. I guess that's where I'm 10 steps ahead and she's just trying to figure out now.

she doesn't want you to enforce boundaries because she wants to have her cake and eat it to.

mlhb

I think you're right. I'm a little frustrated with her. For some reason, she doesn't seem to get the concept of "you asked me for the divorce. I wanted us to work on things." She can be pissed off for a few days, or a few weeks, or whatever, and it just is what it is. And, when I go to talk to her about it, she complains that I'm getting "clingy and emo." Now, I can be clingy and this whole experience has me pretty emo, and which does she want. Does she want me to leave her alone and at the same time give her everything? Sorry, that isn't going to happen. I love her more than anything, and as I've said repeatedly, nothing is going to happen if we don't both do work. I'm doing mine, admittedly stumbling around a lot and making mistakes, and she needs to step up to the plate, too.

And, its only been a few weeks. This is just day 1 of this split (hence, a new chapter) and I don't expect magical changes in either of us overnight.