I am really having trouble figuring out your "plan". You and your W are divorced, she does nothing for you and shows no interest in reconciliation, but "allows" you to stand on your head and try to make her happy, get her stuff from Costco, keep her entertained and not lonely at night, and never ever make a "mistake" of saying something she does not like.

And as a reward, she is planning to move to Texas and be close to her lover.

OK, so what am I missing here? Am I the only one who thinks this is really FUBAR? I don't really see where you are going with this and why do you think this will "work". It seems that you have put your life on hold, are not moving on or growing, and are essentially stuck in a destructive pattern. You are doing backflips whenever she gives you a hug, which, I suspect, she does more for herself than for you.

I would think that if you really want to have a chance at reconciliation, you need to show her that you are a complete, whole, strong, and differentiated person. And that cannot happen in the environment you are in, and with the unhealthy master/slave pattern that has been established. You need to get her out of the house (not just out of the bed), and start making a life for yourself. You two are divorced - act like it. You are essentially allowing her to choose both her actions and consequences - and that is unhealthy. Divorce has consequences - you should not be shielding her from the negative ones.

AGG

i pretty much told him awhile ago this whole sitch was "FUBAR" but, even though he thanked me for my input, it has been falling on somewhat deaf ears.

i agree with your analysis agg. and it is one i pretty much made before as well. i think the whole thing is pretty messed up. she wants the divorce and to live her life and yet still have him as her fall back guy.

mlhb

Yeah Michelle, I saw your reply early on and concurred. I didn't post because I was waiting for the poster to realize that this was getting him nowhere - but as time goes on, I see him digging deeper and deeper, and not seeing how deep he has dug <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Eyes, you can't get her back by being the ultimate Giver, especially when she treats you like dirt and pouts every time you fail to do what she wants. Reread your thread from the beginning, and ask yourself the simple question about your actions - "how's that working for you?". She ain't gonna step up to no plate; she's moving to Texas to be with her lover, for crying out loud...All you are doing is making her life nice between now and then, helping with the transition. Cut the cord.

AGG

I appreciate the last 3 comments, and I fully understand that this may be a fools errand of the 1st degree. However, I invested 9 years plus into this relationship, and I'm willing to invest another few months. You could all be right, I could just be making these months easier for her before she runs off. And, it could be that over the next few months that she sees the changes in me and decides that maybe there is something worth having and then things take a different course.

I honestly believe that if the call of this guy in Texas was so strong, that she would be there already. If nothing else, I think I understand my XW better than you do, and am willing to continue on this path...for now. My answer could change in a week or a month or 3 months. I don't know. I'm not going to predict the future. I also won't burden you with it. I will post if there are major changes, positive or negative, otherwise I'm done with this thread.

eyes, you are not burdening us at all. BUT, from outsiders looking in, and from many of us who have BTDT, we just have concerns that you are basically getting played in a sense. being taken advantage of for the nice guy you obviously are. i, for one, don't like to see nice guys being taken advantage of! some of the things i read on your thread that she is doing or saying or acting just makes my blood boil. i'd like to have a nice chat her. from us, who are on the outside looking in, from you write, i just feel that what we see is wayyyy different from what you see.

but you are certainly entitled to do whatever it is you want to do. and if you want to attempt to Plan A the ****** out of her before she leaves for college where her bf is, etc, just to see what may happen, then do it. we'll be here for you either way it goes.

mlhb

I'm going to give an update, just because she and I had a long (hour plus) talk this morning. It was very helpful for me, despite the fact that she felt there were some things that were a few steps backwards. First of all, I basically accused her of having the EA with OM in Texas before we were divorced. She insists that this wasn't the case (although I don't think she understands exactly what constitutes an EA) and that he is still nothing more than a friend. She says that she has actually been keeping him at bay because she's afraid to start a new relationship. Now, she did say they had a "kick-a**" Valentine's Day. He got her roses and chocolate, and they talked and played video games. Honestly, I know her well enough to believe that this is what happened. She says one of the reasons she hasn't started a relationship with him was she was afraid she "wouldn't be safe." Now, there is ZERO history of violence in our relationship and I would rather die than raise a hand against her, however she is concerned about me getting overly jealous. So, to her it is a real fear.

She also made it clear that she was going to Texas for school, first and foremost, and that yes, she might date him when she was there. That's why she says she keeps encouraging me to date. I was quite frank and told her I had no interest in dating anyone, including her, at this point. I have too much work I want to do. At any rate, she then says "Texas isn't forever. I don't want to stay in Texas. I don't know where I want to be, I just want time to figure it out."

I asked her why, if I still wasn't "getting her", that she stayed around. She replied it was because she still had faith in me (this is where she said that my accusations had taken several points off the faith, though). She knows I'm working to change, and wants to give me that chance. However, meanwhile she says that OM does understand her and that they can talk very freely together. She also was upset that I told her I might end up not keeping all of our cats if she moved, because I'm not sure I'm up to caring for 5 cats and a dog on my own. She got very upset about this, because I had said I would "keep the family together", even though she had originally said she thought we'd have to give the pets away (go figure). I did tell her "The family is already split up" and she kept saying "No, its not. I'm still here!"

I also said that if she moved to Texas, it might be better if we had no contact for a while. She was VERY against this idea.

She is still confused and not understanding some things. She doesn't understand why I just can't be her friend like some of her other close friends. I told her that her other close friends hadn't been in love with her for 9+ years, so it wasn't as easy as flicking a switch. Then, when the conversation was done, I went to head downstairs, and she's upset that I was just leaving without giving her a comforting hug goodbye. Yet another mixed message from her.

The bottom line is that she says that she needs me to be her friend now, without it being conditional on us dating again in the future. She also said that if I couldn't be her friend, then the chances of us dating again were pretty nil. I let her really lay it out on the line for me. And, now, I really do get it more (she's skeptical, and I do). I'm actually much more at ease about where things are, and about what my course will be. My primary focus will be working on myself, and improving my communication and understanding skills, especially with her. I am going to totally pull back from pushing anything that could vaguely be considered a romantic agenda, and concentrate on rebuilding the friendship and trust. So, yes, it will still be attempting "to Plan A the ****** out of her before she leaves for college." It may be that in the next five months she realizes that she can open up to me and be close to me again, or it may be that we never heal this gulf. I will also be doing more to be independent of her in that time, so that when she ultimately moves, it will not be as traumatic for me. In any case, I will come out of it with better communications skills and a better sense of myself, and that's my ultimate goal for myself.

I'll provide updates as warranted, however since I am now not expecting any major day to day changes in where we stand, they will likely be infrequent.

Let me ask you a question. She says she wants to be "friends". And you say that you will "Plan A the **** out of her".

OK, so here is the question (two, actually) - do you Plan A the *** out of all your friends? And, more importantly, is she going to Plan A the **** out of you?

You see, true friendship is balanced. Both people in a friendship give and take equally; otherwise the friendship fails.

So, a third question - what has she done recently to show you that she IS in fact your friend? All I see is her taking and you giving.

What she wants is not a friendship, but attention, adoration, and care - without reciprocating. You should not have to walk on eggshells with a true friend, like you are doing around her.

AGG

AGG - Very valid points. When I say "Plan A the *** out of her" (which has mlhb's phrase, I just quoted it), I mean striving to understand her and meet her ENs more than I had in the past. As for "Do I Plan A the *** out of all your friends?", the answer is "I don't, and I'd be a better friend if I did", so I'm striving to do that for other friends, too. In fact, because I had in some ways become overdependent on her, that's almost necessary for my sanity. As for "is she going to Plan A the *** out of you?", that remains to be seen. In her own way, she has taken some little steps. The fact that she is being more open with me, which is difficult for her, is very important. And, right now her trust level in me is lower than my trust level in her. Frankly, her answers this morning about OM in Texas totally satisfied me. I believe she was telling me the truth, and I can adjust from that.

You ask about the balance and I agree completely. I've said throughout this that if she is not growing as I grow, then I know this relationship would never work again, because we'd be at a different level. That's why I know I can only control my end of the equation.

For the third question, I can give you a few examples. First of all, the talks we are having are VERY important to me. The fact that she is willing to take this time when these are difficult conversations for her indicates caring and friendship to me. Even this morning, what precipitated our long conversation was her saying "You said that you really enjoy when we talk in the mornings and at night, so I want to spend the time with you." She'll call me during the day, just to talk. Not necessarily about problems, just to tell me about her day. That's important to me, too. She is going to a political function this weekend, and invited me to go along with her. When I do things to help her out, she has been much more appreciative recently. Am I still taking the bigger steps? No question. Even though I'm the clingier one, is she the one who needs more support/propping up? I would definitely say yes.

And I won't put up with it indefinitely. I am somewhat more prone to quick outbursts at this point (I'm working on that) and she is much more prone to closing off her mind. If that doesn't change, I'm not interested in continuing. As much as I write, I leave a lot out. If she is going to stay a little girl forever, the guy in Texas is welcome to her. I'll still be her friend, and this will just have been an exciting adventure in life. Yet if she blossoms as I know she can, she would be an amazing companion to have on life's journey.

One thing I did leave out. She said "I think you want me to go to Texas and fail!" I had a hard time answering that, because the truth is that there is a part of me that want that to happen and want to be there to point and laugh. However, the truth is that most of me wants her to go there and succeed, because I believe that it is only by succeeding that she will get out of this "child" stage. I believe her relationship with the guy in Texas won't last unless she changes (I don't know enough about him to comment on how he is with relationships). I mean, it could go 6 months, a year, or something, and what they have now is not reality. Its based on internet conversations and phone calls and seeing each other at conventions every couple of months. That's not dealing with the real world. And, if I'm wrong, and it blossoms into something great, then more power to them. I just have seen the stats, and know that this is unlikely. I don't want misery for her, I want happiness. I want that for me, too. I believe it can be achieved with her, and only if we both do a lot of work.

isn't there a significant age difference between the 2 of you? maybe she is just too young for you. her maturity level shows that. i am going to assume that texas guy is probably close to her age?

mlhb

Yes, I'm 46, she's 30. He is closer to her age. He may actually be a year or two younger. I agree with you about the maturity level. One of her main motivations in this was to allow herself to grow up and establish her own identity. That's one of the reasons I think her getting involved with someone else at this stage is a mistake, although that's her mistake to make. Its also why I have no interest in a romantic relationship with her at this point. I don't want to be her dad, I want to be her equal. Honestly, I think where I am these days is in the "I want to keep my foot in the door" stage. I want to remain close, and if she is developing while I am developing, be in a position to see if what brought us together is still there. My biggest fear is losing her out of my life completely. And as much as she has said "If either of us is in a serious relationship again, the other person will have to understand our friendship", I don't know if that holds up in the real world. How would a new wife/serious girlfriend of mine feel about me spending a lot of time with my ex-wife. How would a new husband/serious boyfriend of hers feel about her spending a lot of time with me?

I've said repeatedly that underneath all of the garbage she's the most unique, amazing woman I've ever met and I don't want to lose that out of my life.

Well, just before you said this, I was about to post that you sound like you are trying to be her dad. Note how many times you used phrases like "she needs to grow up", "I am way ahead of her", "she needs to step up to the plate".

It sounds to me like you are waiting for her to live up to some expectation you have of her; that she will blossom into this wonderful, amazing, loving woman that she has the potential to be; just hasn't achieved it yet.

Well, what if she doesn't want to blossom into your vision? What if she is who she is? Or if she does grow and change, she will grow and change into something other than what you expect?

You say you Plan A your friends, or are trying to learn to do that. But you are missing the other half of the friendship - you will not (or should not) be a giver to your friends without them reciprocating; you should not invite them to dinner every week if they don't do somethin gin return..... And yet that is exactly what you are doing with your ex, trying to stand on your head until she "gets it", while she does not nothing in return. Having a chat with you or accepting a hug from you don't qualify, IMO...

I know you want her back, and I am not saying that you shouldn't try to get her back - I would just recommend a completely different approach for getting her back. But if you think your approach is working, that's OK too.

AGG

"If either of us is in a serious relationship again, the other person will have to understand our friendship", I don't know if that holds up in the real world. How would a new wife/serious girlfriend of mine feel about me spending a lot of time with my ex-wife. How would a new husband/serious boyfriend of hers feel about her spending a lot of time with me?

I wouldn't be ok with it I can tell you that.
And I think as time goes on the need to be so close to her, especially once you both move on, that need will be gone. If you two did not live in the same house, etc... If you weren't still trying to act married even though divorced, things would be much different. Once you have someone in your life who is filling your needs you won't NEED to have such a close friendship with your ex. You just need time to heal and move on. And if there is a next time... I think you would be more on the same level as someone your own age. She is only 30. She probably wants to be around and in a relationship with someone she is on the same level as. she is NOT ever going to be on the same level as someone who is 16 years older than she is.

mlhb

No, actually I'd be open to other approaches. However, I am loathe to consider ones that involve cutting her out of my life (i.e., a plan B deal) at this point, because at that point I might lose all contact with her forever, and that's something I really don't want.

And, if she doesn't blossom, she's not the woman for me. I guess a better statement than "I don't want to be her dad" might have been "I'm tired of being her dad", because in many ways I've taken over that role in the relationship (as was pointed out early on in this thread and as I've begun to figure out is more true than I realized).

And hey, you can give me a few points of credit. She had a sewing machine in the shop that was ready, and she asked me if I could go pick it up for her if I was going to be in the area. I actually have a client a couple of miles from the shop and it would have been very easy to stop by, and frankly, it would have disrupted my day. In the past, there's no question I would have altered my schedule to make sure I could get it for her. This time, she's on her own with it. And, amazingly enough, she wasn't pissed off at me for not being able to get it for her. Hey, its a tiny step, and its still a step.

I agree with you. I don't mind if she (or any woman) has male friends, however if its "too close" a male friend, there's way too many dangers.



You may be right on every point. I suppose I'll see as time goes by. However, despite the age difference, we have a lot of common interests, so I don't think that's entirely true. And what you say about someone filling my needs is also very true. I really do have zero interest in a one-sided relationship for anything but the short term. Like I said, I'm investing 5 months of my life in this. That's worth it to me for a potential life-long payback. I'm not going to chase after her for 2-3 years. Once she's out of town, barring us making major strides in our relationship (which may or may not happen), I will begin seeing what is out there in the world again. If her path and mine bring us back together again after that, then so be it. However, there does come a point where I'll be worrying about "me" and not about "us."

Agreed. But, you can be what a real friend would be. Someone who cares about the other person, but does not a) sacrifice their life for their friend (which you are doing since you said you cannot move on because of her); b) does not drop everything at the drop of a hat to do favors for the friend; and c) someone who gets something in return in the friendship.


Hmmm, have you thought about what you just said? Are you saying that you do not want her the way she is, but will want her if she becomes something that she is not? That sounds like a losing proposition to me. Or a fantasy.


Glad you see this. Please realize that you have the power to change that dynamic.


That's a good step. And I hope that she doesn't accuse you of being vindictive or difficult - and if she does, that you will have a good answer for her.

No (healthy) woman would want to date her father. So my thoughts are that she is tired of you telling her how things should be and what she should do, and waiting for her to blossom into something. My guess is that the OM does not tell her that she needs to blossom into anything. What do you think is more attractive to a woman - a man who compliments her for who she is, or a man who tells her that she needs to grow or change to become lovable?

If you want her back, stop thinking that you are so superior to her. Show her that you care about her the way she is. Show her that you respect her the way she is. And stop doing things for her. I still say that the most attractive thing you can do is to stop focusing on her, and to start having a life - go out with friends, get a hobby, be gone a lot from the house.

AGG

well, and i just don't see how they will EVER be on the same level. in 4 years he will be 50 and she will only be 34. i am thinking part of the problem is, whether you agree or not eyes, the age difference. yes, you may enjoy some of the same things, which makes for a FRIENDSHIP but not a relationship. she is going to someone who is closer to her maturity level and who "GETS" her because they are close to the same age.

mlhb

Again, thanks for your comments. AGG, yesterday after our long talk, and after reading your comments, a lot became clearer to me. And what she said was right...I have to become a true friend with no expectations of dating her in the future. My expectations were influencing my behavior in a way that wasn't helping either of us. So, now, those expectations are in the back of my mind. In the forefront is working on myself, working on the communication with her, and being her friend...and making sure she is my friend, too. BTW, there was no vindictiveness over me not picking up that machine. She hurt her back the other day and there was actually gratitude for me carrying it upstairs (this is something I'd do for any friend with a bad back...and this time, I let her ask me to do it, instead of assuming I had to do it for her).

As for whether I am waiting for this idealized version of her, no, not really. I've seen that woman underneath, that woman has been there on and off through our relationship, and that's who I love. The question is whether that woman will emerge from this "adventure", or whether she will fall back and be trapped under all her garbage, or whether something new will emerge. Options 1 and 3 appeal to me (although option 3 is obviously more uncertain). Option 2 doesn't appeal to me.

mlhb - I really don't think the age difference means that much. "Getting" someone has nothing to do with age, it has to do with interests, IMO. There are plenty of couples with lasting relationships that have greater age disparities. What doesn't work (as several people have alluded to here) is a parent/child and husband/wife at the same time. We had too much of the former. Would you say the same thing if I was 60 and she was 44? Or if I was 70 and she was 54? I have many times said that "she keeps me young", because I enjoy her perspective on things, I don't fall into "old fogey" mode because she constantly introduces me to new concepts, new trends and similar things. It rarely feels like there is a big age gap between us. I think it has influenced this situation to some extent, and I don't think it is a killer to this or any other relationship in and of itself.

Interestingly, I'm heading out the door as soon as I post this to an early meeting, and she was the one who seemed disappointed that we wouldn't get to talk this morning. I mean, I'd love to, and I have other priorities today. And no, I'm not going to read too much into any one little thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yup, with emphasis on the second half <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.



Good! I suspect that the more of an independent life you have, the more appealing you will be to her.

AGG

No huge updates. We spent most of the day together on Saturday, it had its frustrations, however there were almost all external and not between us, and it was overall good. In the evening, there was a concert which I thought she'd like more than me (although I was very interested in it, too) and a friend had secured a couple of tickets for me. She was too exhausted to go. I was pretty tired, too, however I decided to go anyway, in part to show her that I had more independence. I ended up thoroughly enjoying the concert. I would have liked to share it with her first hand, and it was not to be. And again it showed her that I'm not dependent on her for all of my entertainment/companionship.

She is definitely more of a taker than a giver with me right now, and I think a lot of that is her low trust level in me. So, this morning she sent me a cute internet link that she thought I'd enjoy. Now, this may not seem like a big deal, however to me its a crack in the ice. She's thinking of me and things I like instead of having this big wall up against me. As they say in "What About Bob?"...'baby steps...baby steps.'

I've been doing a lot of reading from Al Turtle's site. His information fascinates me, and also makes a lot of sense to me. I'm applying what I'm learning there, although I'm stumbling through until I get better at the techniques. I think its making a difference, and I guess I'll see as time goes by.

eye,

in response to your post to me, i don't think all age differences matter as long as both people are on the SAME maturity level. i don't see that here and that is why, in YOUR case, i do think the age difference is mattering. especially since this man in texas is close to her age. she is choosing someone she is on the same maturity level as.

i give you credit. i'd not be able to be on this roller coaster ride after a divorce. i guess the next few months, i hope, will give you your answers and your closure. i rode a roller coaster in my marriage, and i'll tell ya, i wouldn't go it again. she's a waffler. i, for one, cannot deal with wafflers. my exbf was one and i put up with it so long until one day i finally just blew. i feel you either want to be with someone or you don't.

mlhb