Well, the latest in my manic depressive experience was that she called me from Mexico this morning. She said she tried to call over the weekend, and I missed it. That's possible, since she shows up as "Unknown" when she calls from Mexico, and I have an annoying client who shows up as "Unknown" whose calls I sometimes avoid. Had she left a message, I would have called her back. She said it was okay, and who knows if she called OM or not. Still, it was great to hear her voice, and great to talk to her.

I was very frank with her that I'm getting in touch with ways I didn't address her needs in the past, and that I was sorry about it, and that I realized sorry didn't change anything, and that I was committed to showing her through my actions that I was serious about addressing those wrongs.

She wants to be revamping her image (as I mentioned, she's a celebrity in her field) and I told her that I wanted to help her with it. Her response was basically "Okay, but you have to prove it to me on a small scale before I let you attempt things on a big scale." Honestly, those words made me grin from ear to ear! Its clear that she hasn't given up on me, and that she wants us to stay close. This isn't about romance, any thoughts of that are way down the line as far as I'm concerned, its about her giving me the opportunity to show her that I am serious about making changes. I am 100% committed to that.

I'm still going to call a counselor, though...these ups and downs are no way to live life. I know the ex has been going through a lot of them for many years, and I wonder even more how she survived this long. Well, I'm going to make things better for me, and hopefully for her, too!

Honestly, I don't think it was worked out between them. This friend is out of state, and so doesn't see the ex in d-t-d mode. I think she really is suggesting what she feels is the best course of action, and she is reflecting her own experience. If you don't know anyone who rebuilt, then rebuilding is not possible.

It really occurred to me that if the ex did not still have some feelings for me, she would not stay in the same house as me, let alone the same bed. There's a limit to what one will do for convenience. I do believe she just really wanted me to wake up and see how I was hurting her.

I'm going to dismiss the friend's words as "not-so-helpful" advice, and keep on the path that my heart tells me is correct.

I've got an appointment with a counselor tomorrow. He seems like a nice guy on the phone, we'll see how it goes.

I'm curious as to why you two divorced but share the same bed. I know frequently people get stuck sharing a house for financial reasons....but the same bed?

Having gone through a separation from my H six months ago, I can tell you it is very, very hard to detach when you are still in such close contact.

After a while, I began to realize deep down we didn't want to detach. There is still a lot of love between us. It's just that we have these issues that seemed, at the time (and still do some days) insurmountable.

What finally happened to us was I decided we needed to either detach completely (as complete as you can with a child) or we needed to attempt a reconciliation. My H was all for a R since he never wanted the S to begin with.

I began to see the lack of detachment was preventing me from mourning the loss of the M and moving on. It was at that time I stumbled upon the website and realized, hmmm, maybe we can fix this. My H was receptive to the idea.

I guess my point is, despite what your friend said, there is always hope and you don't have to detach until you are ready. I kind of wonder if she really wants to sever all ties, anyway. A person who really wants to get on with their life would have moved out a long time ago without any prodding.

MizzJuneBug - That's kind of my feeling, too. I am really beginning to think that she never wanted the D, she just thought there was nothing she could do that would get me to wake up to my destructive behaviors. I'm still getting somewhat mixed signals from her, which is normal at this point, I think. And, I also realize that to move on, we need some physical separation. I'm thinking about (and would appreciate feedback on) saying "Look, you need to move into the guest room so we can start establishing our separate identities. However, if think that we have a shot at reconciliation, and are willing to put in the same work that I will, then we can keep up with the current arrangement."

As for how we do it, we still love each other. And not having sex isn't different from when we were married (one of my needs that wasn't being met, obviously). It does afford us the opportunity to talk about things, which is very important to her and, as I'm learning, to me, too. It sounds like my situation is similar to yours. After being on this site, and starting to read HNHN, I realize that our problems aren't insurmountable, and they will require work, and if we are both willing to put in the work (I know I am), then we can get back to a very strong relationship. And I also know that I have to walk the walk with this, or it will never work.

Ack...the mixed signals continue. We had dinner (pleasant except for lousy service) after I picked her up from the airport. When we got home I got a intense hug of the "thank you for being here for me type" and all was good. At the same time, the divorce paperwork had come while she was away, and she was eager to get it because there are a few final steps she has to do (apparently, we're technically still married until she has her witness send a copy of the paperwork that is here at the house to me...at the house...go figure). Its like she has to temper any affection with hardening her heart at the same time. Frustrating, confusing, and I'll just keep working on myself. That's becoming my mantra.

So, an eventful day. She still vehemently denies that there is anything past friendship with OM, despite me seeing a text message from her to him where she says she loves him, and from him to her with "I love you soooo much" in it. We also got into a bit of a disagreement, and she said that if she didn't feel welcome, she might have no choice but to run to the arms of another man. So, I still suspect this an a EA only. She does say she does care for him because "Its nice to have a friend who understands me." Bottom line is I can't worry about it, I have to show her I'm the better man in the long run.

Told her today she needed to move into the guest room. I still have mixed feelings about this, its going to be tough not having her in the bed with me, and at the same time I need my space to just clear my head. I'm not sleeping these days (5 hours is a good night) and I have to get used to the idea. I did relent on her having to move all her clothes into the other room and not having access to the master bath (which has the nice tub) because I had promised her she would still have access to them at some point. However, I made it clear that she needs to do this on my schedule, not hers. Its not a perfect boundary, and its something.

We talked about starting to work on things, and she was more amenable than I expected. Her trust level in me is very low right now, she's very fragile. She's also misinterpreting things I say, and I am with her. We need to have better communication. She wants to support me in self-improvement, and is very skeptical. I guess I can't blame her. And we're both on eggshells too much, which is another reason I think the separate rooms will be helpful. I think I can probably get her to fill out the emotional needs questionnaire in the next few weeks. I'm not going to shove that on her right away, just do it in a "Okay, in this work I'm doing, it would help if we could both fill this out" sort of way.

Saw a psychologist today. Unfortunately, he can't prescribe anything, so I didn't get anything to help me sleep. I think the ex may have some Ambien, I may ask her if she has a spare, and I'll call my doctor to see if he can write me a script. 4-5 hours of sleep isn't cutting it.

I won't go into everything at the session, it was an initial session. He did keep wanting to know what I was getting out of the relationship. The truth is that I've carried the load most of the time, and that's taken a toll. She's always been worth it to me, and it obviously frayed me around the edges, which contributed to the D. The bottom line is that there is a part of me that likes taking care of her, and more importantly, she has such a brilliant light inside of her, that its been worth putting up with all the garbage to get glimpses of it. He agrees that she has a lot of growing up to do, and should be getting counseling. Easier said than done. He also thinks I need to be more forceful with her in setting some boundaries, which is going to be tough. However, he's almost certainly correct. I'm going to see him again next week. I'm not 100% sold on him, however I didn't dislike him, so I'm going to give him at least one more shot.

Sounds like good progress. A red flag for me:
When someone says that, it worries me, because this kind of caring/payoff sometimes signals that you aren't truly looking for a soulmate as much as someone to 'fix' or 'groom' so you can soothe your own ego. That can be a self-defeating prophecy, especially if the person you subconsciously think needs your help outgrows that need, leaving you empty and not understanding why you're so upset. These are very subtle things, dealing with FOO stuff that you probably aren't even aware of. Something worth asking the C about.

Okay, first, what's FOO? Second, the light inside her is more important to me than the taking care of her. Yeah, from a standpoint of "being needed", its very nice, and she's leaned on me much, much, more than I've leaned on her during the relationship (there are times I've said "I'm not allowed to have a bad day, because I can't appear to not be strong for you" or words to that effect), and it takes a toll. I would much rather have her stand up on her own and be much more like equals than to have to be her caretaker. 9 years ago that was okay, she's 30 now, she needs to be an adult. I think she feels this too, and may have felt smothered by me sometimes, and that could have caused some issues. I really want to discuss this with her.

Communications is totally the key to any future for us.

It's a good sign that you are aware of all that.

FOO means family of origin. Theory holds that just about everything about you is what it is strictly because of the family you grew up in. My dad left when I was 12; I learned to seek out boys and try to win their favor any way I could, in an attempt to earn some 'love' to replace the love I lost from my dad - very typical behavior for when a father leaves a preteen/teen girl, well documented. If your parent is an alcoholic, you learn to enable. If your parent puts you down all the time, you never learn to value yourself. If your mother is weak, you may grow up wanting to take care of other people like you did her. Stuff like that.

If you ever want to know yourself and even fix yourself, you almost always have to investigate your childhood to see why you turned out the way you did. Just like you can predict what your W will do, based on her family.

I had a very poor self-image for a lot of years (I still struggle with it, which I guess is why validation is important to me) and eventually realized it started when I was 2 and my brother was born. My mom was having serious back problems and was laid up for a long time after he was born. So, I went from the baby and #1 on everyone's list to #3, not even #2 where most kids go when there's a newborn. Nobody did it to hurt me, and at that age, I made a judgment, and spent years compiling evidence to back up that I wasn't important/good enough. Remnants of this are why this is so tough. I've spent a lot of years building up myself and my defenses, and the D undermined a huge amount of that.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that OM is just an EA, despite ILYs. I know I said this yesterday, and I'm sure she does care about him, maybe does love him because he's been filling an EN of hers. With him hundreds of miles away, switching it back to me filling that EN is easier than if he was a coworker or guy down the street.

A couple of good things have happened. Last night I went up to talk to her in her sewing room, just to spend some time with her. She was fairly busy/distracted, so I didn't stay long, and I let her tell me when to go, rather than getting up as if I was bored. I came down later when I was going to go to sleep to say goodnight, and she told me "You don't have to rush off, you can stay for a while", which I take as a good sign. I was insanely tired, and stayed anyway. We talked for about 1/2 hour this morning, just good conversation, which was nice. Got a huge hug from her before leaving for work. I really miss kissing her goodbye. We haven't had a real kiss in about 6 weeks. However, I took the step of kissing her on the top of the head after a hug yesterday, not intended to be a romantic thing, just a comforting thing, and there was no "don't do that." In fact, she doesn't flinch away from my touch at all. I'm definitely trying to initiate anything sexual, however I think if she was uncomfortable with it, there would be some tensing up or something.

She's still insanely gun shy, as she should be at this point, and I am not reading too much into any one day, and it does feel like progress to me. I'm settling in for the long haul.

This all sounds wonderful, and very very encouraging. Good work.

i dunno, i am just not getting good vibes about this whole sitch.

honestly, you two are divorced and she is free to do as she chooses. i think the whole sleeping in the same bed, same house, etc, is probably messing with her head and yours. i feel like you are grasping at whatever crumbs she throws you while she is also getting needs met by this new "bf".

none of this seems very healthy to me at all. i understand you want to salvage this but i just feel like she is playing both sides.

and why would she move out? she has it great! she has you fawning all over her, but you are divorced, and she is free to do as she chooses. she has the best of both worlds! i wouldn't leave either! just because she is not moving out doesn't mean she is committed to working on things.

i have been manipulated and burned too many times to see a lot of positive here. i just feel like she is manipulating and i feel as though you want to be the father figure who saves her.

mlhb

mlhb - Again, I appreciate your input. Some of what you say may be true. As mentioned in the other thread, the bed situation is changing, and that is an important first step in things. We both certainly need room to clear our head. Is she playing both sides? I don't know. She's generally not that devious a person, it would be unlike her. Which doesn't mean that its not the case. Is this guy really anything more than a friend? Again, I don't know. Its especially tough to know with him being out of state. Its not like she's jetting off to see him every weekend, or she's disappearing for the weekend. She has expressed a desire to work on things. Time will tell if that is true or not.

The bottom line for me is that I've invested 9 years of my life into this relationship, I still have very strong feelings for her, she definitely has feelings for me, and I'm willing to invest another few months to see if there is the possibility of rebuilding something good for both of us.

I don't see myself as a father figure to her. Yeah, I want to see her succeed and grow, and who wouldn't want that for someone they love. In fact, at this point the only way things could possibly work in the future is if she is able to stand on her own feet.

well, i do wish the best for you. good luck.

mlhb

Thanks for that. On another note, for personal reasons, I am changing my display name.

The more I think about things, the more I believe I am going to need a "Sh*t or get off the pot" talk with her in the next few weeks. I still love her, I still want to be with her, and if she's not interested in that, then I have to figure out some way to move on, which will probably mean having nothing more than cursory contact with her. If she's living in the house, which she's allowed to do under the divorce agreement, I don't think I can avoid her 100%, and I do think I can change the rules enough that she gets so frustrated with the situation that she decides to move out. She has threatened that if I did that she would cut off all contact, and that may be a risk I have to take. If she's totally gone, at least she'll have a chance to explore her feelings for me without me around, and if she then decides she wants to restart something, then I'll probably be open to the idea (who knows what will happen to me in the interim?).

Obviously, I'd prefer her saying "You know, I've seen you really making an effort here, and maybe I did act too rashly. I'm not willing to say that we are going to get back together yet, and I would like to get back to where we are, too, and I'm willing to do the work it takes, too." If she said that, I'm confident we could repair things, restart them. I have no idea how long it would take, months, certainly, maybe more, and she's worth it to me. I just am more and more realizing that, as some have said, this situation is not good for either of us. Neither of us wants to let go, but we don't know if we're afraid of pulling apart and losing all contact, or pulling together and getting hurt again.

I'm going to keep loving her and work on meeting her ENs. I can already tell that she's looking at me differently, I just don't know if its enough.

Being in this limbo does take its toll. I was away last night at a business meeting. I come home today, she's calling me on the way worried about me and happy I'm coming home. I get a big hug when I get in and then we have a very nice dinner together. Then, while we're watching TV and chatting, she suddenly says she has to get back to sewing. The sewing room is one of her retreats here, and 1/2 the time she says she's sewing she's actually chatting away on the computer or surfing the net. So, lord only knows what she's doing up there, and I'm not going to pry.

I was having a long talk with my business partner, who is on his 3rd marriage, and he was basically telling me things I could do that would have helped, and might still help. It was basically a lot of stuff from HNHN, and it was still useful. Then he suggested that I tell her in a loving way "Look, you know I love you, and you know I want to grow old with you. However, I know you're not sure of your feelings, and this situation isn't good for both of us. I've rented a furnished apartment for you for a month. I want you to move in there, and for us to have no contact for 30 days. At the end of that time, I think you'll know exactly how you feel about me" or words to that effect. It sounds a lot like a Plan B, from what I've read about Plan B. It's scary, because it could be that she finds that she doesn't need me in her life, and that it would kill any chance of rebuilding. It's scary, too, because I could send her running to OM. Although, in either case, at least I'd know one way or the other and if it meant that any chance was gone, at least for the foreseeable future, at least I could try to move on with my life.

Now, that being said, I'm pretty sure her reaction would be fear/anger at first. Accusations of not caring about her, how it won't be just 30 days, she'll never talk to me again. She'll call OM and tell him how terrible I am and he'll tell her that he still loves her. She'll talk to him about maybe she should go out there, and then he'll falter. Because there's a huge difference between having a long distance, mostly internet/phone relationship, and suddenly having someone move into your life before you have a lot of history, especially someone from another state. Reluctantly, he might say yes. Then, she drags her heels about actually packing her stuff and going out there, making excuses to herself. By the fifth day, she's calling and/or sending text messages, which I wouldn't take (for me to maintain the self control not to respond will be quite the challenge, I honestly have a hard time of conceiving of not having contact with her for 30 days). And, from there I don't know how it goes. I suspect she'll realize after 30 days how much we are part of each other's life and will be willing to start on a reconciliation. For my standpoint, I know how I'll feel after 30 days. There's no question in my mind how I feel about her. My business partner asked me if I would still love her when she's older and flabbier. I told him that I want to love her until one of us gets put in a pine box.

I'm still scared, still not sure if this is right, or if I should build up more deposits in her Love Bank first, or if its too risky with her history of depression. I'm very scared of my suspicions of how things will go being wrong. I'm asking for opinions here.

I also have another question. For years when I do laundry, I do our laundry. Tomorrow is laundry day. Do I just do mine, which I realize will upset her, and maybe take hits in the Love Bank, and at least establish another boundary, or should I do hers and make a deposit, and still have an undefined boundary? I'm very confused here.

She said to me last night "You didn't tell me how your doctor's visit went", referring to the counselor. I told her I really didn't want to talk about it in depth, because it was personal (which is the truth, plus there was a lot about our relationship) and that it was good to talk to someone else and that I was going to see the guy again and that I thought that it might not be too long a deal. All of that's true, except for the part where it might not be too long a deal. I have no idea how long this will take.

I'm crossing my fingers that her asking about it without me bringing it up is a good sign that maybe she's thinking about it for herself.