I have been lurking here for about a year and love this site and it's principles. I really have come to respect MEDC's advice in particular but a lot of other posters advice as well. (Mr. & Mrs Wondering, RIF, Skinsgal, PEP, etc.) I would appreciate comments/advice on my question as I'd love to have a Marriage Builders perspective on the following:

I'm a 34 year old male. I still believe that there may be someone out there for me. I've had plenty of girlfriends over the years and did have one relationship end because I wouldn't ask her to marry me (we dated for 4 years...I was too broke at the time to ask her properly in my opinion...her loss now...LOL) Anyway, I've read on here how many women can seem like the perfect wife when you first get married, then they cheat. I fully intend to do a full plan A on anyone I marry from the start. Anyway, my question is this. Should I even bother looking to get married knowing that I couldn't take a divorce. Especially with any children involved. I know men basically lose it all in a divorce. (No offense meant ladies...just I've seen it personally too many times..I'm in the Seattle area) About half of my friends are in the same boat and have basically resolved to never get married. What do you guys think, should I just play the field forever or is it still worth it to even try to get married. I know this isn't totally on topic, but maybe you'll save someone from being here with a problem in the future.

You can never succeed at anything if you don't risk failure.

Hey Smokey. I understand your fear and worry. But the best way I can answer your question is to let you know that I plan...or hope to...to get married again. To me it is worth the risk.

What I will do the next time is...

be more selective than I was in the past
have a pre-nuptial that spells out everything in the sad event of a divorce.
be the best person I can possibly be.

Only you can decide if it is worth the risk to you.

Good luck.

Smokey - if you have to ask the question then it would appear that it would not be "worth it" for you.

Your "LOL" statement about a woman who DID apparently want to marry you regardless of your "material wealth" seems to indicate that you are very materialistic yourself and you seem to prefer "playing the field."

From what you have written I see three main "problems."

First, you don't "get" what Plan A is really all about. It's NOT a way to "protect YOU" from a potential divorce, it's about CHANGES in one's self that make YOU more attractive to anyone, especially to your spouse, so that THEY want you more than anyone else, even if "material things" are not all that "rosy."

Second, you are all about what YOU want and what YOU think you want. That, in itself, IS what a "wayward spouse" mindset is all about. Since you already feel that "playing the field" is okay (assuming you are including premarital sex in that "playing"), just to get YOUR "needs" met, what would prevent YOU from having an affair yourself if you didn't think your wife was meeting those "needs?"

Third, you "fear" divorce because of what material possessions you could lose. If that's a "key factor" in what you use as a decision maker for determining what is "worth it" or not, what other things do you do in your life that carry with it the unwanted, but possible, risk of losing material wealth and possessions? If you choose to do those things, knowing the risk is "there," why do you choose to do them anyway? Those things could include everything from gambling, to driving a car on the road with other "nuts," to the potential for STD's and AIDS from "playing the field, to a potential marriage.

Smokey, marriage is about joint servanthood, not calculation. It is a choice TO "surrender all" to one's spouse "for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer..etc." Marriage, as God intended it to be, is 1 + 1 = 1, not 2.

Marriage is also about, for most people, family. If you were to have children, it IS about "loss of material possessions" because children ARE expensive in many ways. So it has a lot more to do with YOUR "value system" and what you "value" in your life MORE than your life and possessions.

You do not sound "ready" for a good, loving, caring, non-self centered marriage.

That's okay too. You can choose "things" over a spouse it that's what you want to do. But since you asked the question, WHY WOULD you want to get married and what would BE the RIGHT "someone out there for ME?"

Smokey

Squid and I shared a wonderful adventure for the first 17 years of our marriage. I wouldn't have swapped it for anything.

It that invalidated because of our experiences since ?

I think that if you follow Harley advice BEFORE marriage you have a high chance of success.

However, you have be the "marryin' kind". Only you know if you are.

Smokey,

On the radio, Dr. Harley talks about how Joyce dumped him seven times before they married. What was really amusing to me is that she even wanted to date when they were already engaged!

Harley wrote a book called "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders". It's about how you make decisions in marriage: each of you gives up what is negative for the other to find what works for both.

That's a path to follow that isn't really well-supported in today's society. Look at Billy Joel's song: "Don't go changing to try to please me..." Dr. Harley's advice is exactly: change to try to please the other but in a way that works for you, too.

Now what if you marry someone and you try to follow that approach but your spouse does not? That's where separation comes in.

I entered marriage with the view that I would stay married no matter what. Seven surgeries (from two injuries) and one affair later, I finally came round to Dr. Harley's view that you need to be willing to separate. I still believe in the permanence of marriage, but now I also believe in the appropriateness of separation under some conditions.

You may face behavior choices by your spouse that are unacceptable to you. You have one of four choices:

1. You can discuss these choices with your spouse. If the spouse believes in the Policy of Joint Agreement, the spouse will stop what is bothering you and will work with you to find what works for both.

2. You can try to tolerate the behavior of the spouse that is negative for you. Sooner or later, your experiences of the spouse may become so difficult for you that you just want to get away. Then you may neglect your spouse.

3. You can try to change your spouse. People resist being told what to do. A spouse may comply under threat of separation, only to sneak around doing what you don't like as a type of rebellion. This leads to cat and mouse games that are degrading for both.

4. You can separate until and unless your spouse decides to consider your feelings and find what works for both.

Our 13 year old daughter has told me on a number of occasions that she will never marry. I am hoping that she will be as intolerant of a man who breaks the POJA as Joyce was, and someday she'll have a husband who is committed to care for her and whom she cares for so much that she is willing to give up whatever is negative for him. If she isn't willing to make that commitment, then I'd rather she not marry.

Looking back to the year we were engaged, I see now what I did not see then. My fiance was willing to accept what was negative for him. I saw that as extraordinary care, and I was wrong. As soon as we got married, the tables turned. My recommendation to you would be to read "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders". I think marriage makes people the happiest. When I think of our children, I think of "the joy of caring." With a spouse, I think that is magnified because the joy of caring is mutual.

My husband has told me that he is willing to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. I don't know if it is under threat of separation and so sooner or later he'll be sneaking around doing what I don't like, or if his desire to consider my feelings is genuine. Time will tell, but his willingness to follow the POJA is encouraging.

Personally, I believe that nearly all marriages start with the couple very much in love. Where people go wrong is in deciding that the POJA does not have to be followed because, as my husband once put it, "I'm an adult, and I can make my own decisions." If you really care for your wife, you'll want to make sure she is happy with every decision you make.

There are lots of "someones" out there. The person for you to marry is the one:
- you find
- who makes you happy
- for whom you are willing to give up what is negative for her
- who is willing to give up what is negative for you.

Cherishing

Hello,
Read the books *His Needs, Her Needs* and *Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders.* They will be of tremendous help to you in finding someone who really does share your values and who would make a good marriage partner. Read through this site, too - the articles, not just the message boards.

Good luck!
Mulan

I totally agree Mulan here!

IMHO yes it's worth it. You have an advantage over a lot of us. You can protect your marriage before anything bad happens. I would just make sure your future S would join you in living by the "His Needs Her Needs" approach. I wish I had know about all of this before. Good luck and yes there is someone special out there for you.

God bless you!