I don't even know if this is the right place to put this, but I need help...mentally. Please don't bash me.

In short, my H and I are separating this spring. He's an alcoholic and verbally abusive in many ways (controlling, covert stuff-not cussing or anything).

I have found myself 34 years old and with two young children totally emotionally tapped. Physically done. I haven't had my needs met in many many years due to all the crap I've chosen to put up with. I've found I'm a horrible codependent. If there's a picture next to codependent in the dictionary, it's a picture of me. And I know, go to Alanon. I'm going to online meetings, got all the literature, and I have a face to face meeting next week.

But in the present, I need help guys. I am finding myself obsessed with the IDEA of this guy I dates like 15 years ago!!! I recently found him on myspace and he seemed really happy to hear from me, etc. But then he let me know that he got engaged over the xmas break. We live 2000 miles from each other and there is no realistic way we could've really ever gotten together, but I guess he was the IMAGE or IDEA of what could've been to me. He is sweet, successful, good looking and was single. Till now. ALl these years. And it really just brought home the fact that I've wasted so many young and good years of my life trying to change an alcoholic. How stupid of me. And now, the only thing I can say I'm happy about is that I have my children. But I even wish I had had them with a different man!

I feel so guilty for feeling all that I do.

I go through so much guilt every day. Even posting here makes me feel bad like what if he saw this!?? What if he knew?!

And the guy I mentioned, man, he emailed me a few times and I obsessively check to see if he has emailed me back. It's wrong. It's not healthy. I'm sure it's part of my codependency or something. I'm looking to another person to fix my feelings of despair and grief. To run from it I think.

Can anyone help without kicking me when I'm down?

I can't help but to want to know I am lovable. That there's a chance in the future for me to be loved. That I can have a good healthy life. Oh, but I'm such a mess right now. I know I couldn't even be in a healhty relationship cuz I'm not healthy.

I'm codependent.

THanks for listening.

PR, I know you deserve some good love right now, but it's BECAUSE you are codependent that you must absolutely not seek out another man until you have gone through serious, weekly counseling to learn to like yourself better. To be loveable - by you! And I'm talking weekly/biweekly counseling for at LEAST 6 months to a year. It will take that long to delve into why you allow abuse into your life - so that you won't allow it to happen again. If you don't you will only replace the problems you have now with H with new, similar problems with ANY other man you date, because you don't believe you are as important or loveable as anyone else. You have GOT to get that resolved before you look for any kind of reassurance from ANY man.

PR, Catperson is right on target. I was in your shoes in a very simular situation. My H and I were married almost 14 years and one small child. I was completely faithful to him up until the end. H was verbally abusive to me on an ongoing basis and my self esteem was very low. I felt worthless and unwanted by anyone. I started to see somebody right before our divorce was final, however I wasn't ready for that. I saw myself going right back into the old pattern of being co-dependent, which is not healthy. I put that potential relationship on hold. My divorce is final now and I'm in counseling. It's still fresh but I'm learning and getting stronger everyday.

Stay strong and work on yourself. It will be good for you and for your children.

God Bless

Yah. I see what you guys are saying. I am feeling worthless and am, once again, searching for my worth externally.

I did some soul searching and I realize that I've been doing this since i was like 9 or 10 years old! I would like a boy and just want his attention and approval so much (daddy issues???). And I'd be crushed if he didn't like me. I hope I can somehow bring my daughters up to be the opposite. I see that a lot in teenage girls, them wanting to please the boys so much. It is not a good thing.

PR, was your dad missing in your life? That's the number one reason girls turn out that way. I've read tons on it, because it's what I did, too. If you want, I can expand.

How old are your girls? I forget. Have I told you already to subscribe to the newsletter Daughters, from www.daughters.com? It's the most amazing thing I've ever gotten for help in raising my D17. I highly recommend it.

A daddy issue? Not necessarily, but maybe a God issue, not seeing God as your provider, a father, a friend, someone you can look to and depend on.

And I would say one reason your looking so much to this man from your past, is not necessarily because your co-dependant, but because the needs he met in your life back then are not being met NOW, and that is something you long for. But truth be told, even if he met those needs, there would be others not being met.

So look at that relationship in light of what needs were being met to find out which needs are important to you to have met in a relationship. I know for myself, looking back at past relationships for what they were, and in terms of looking at the needs aspect of things helps me to see areas in my life today when I am struggling and begin to think backwards..it helps me put into words what I need from my husband now, and it helps keep our relationship safe and protected.

So take the time to learn about yourself, and what you need in a relationship before you start seeking out another one..
and use the reflections of the past to help direct you, in other words use them to learn to make different choices in the future.

cat- Bingo. Dad left when I was 4. I remember crying telling him that I'd do ANYTHING if he'd just stay. I kept thinking there must be something I could do to make him change his mind and stay. He kept saying no that he couldn't and I just couldn't wrap my mind around that.

I will subscribe to those newsletters and yes, do expand. That'd be great if you can shed light on this.

Rose: good idea. I would say that the OM from the past was very warm to me. He loved talking with me. He'd tell me what he feels like doing instead of just doing it. We actually never even had a real physical relationship back then. We dated, we worked together at a restaurant. We talked on the phone all the time. We really liked each other. But, back then, I had so many issues. I got back together with this abusive guy I was with and by the time I got enough sense to get out of that relationship, I was off to college and really lost touch with OM. When I tried to find him again, I couldn't...till there was Myspace!!! And I found him. Ah, but, I'm married and in the midst of this and he's getting married. It never could've been anyhow.

But, I do see that what he gave me back then is a map to what I need now and what I'm missing. My H rolls his eyes if I try to talk to him about an issue. He doesn't like being on the phone much. He's pretty non feeling a lot of the time, not very warm to me. He seems to always be putting up a front. Well, not always, but much of the time. It's a rare day that he's vulnerable. The most vulnerable I've seen him is in the face of this reality that we are splitting up. Now he has feelings!

I hope I can change and make different choices, smart choices.

Thanks for the input

Let me ask a question here...

You say you and your husband are separating and getting a divorce this spring. Is this something that has been planned for a long time now and for legal reasons is just now coming to fruition or is this something you decided about the time you found this old flame on the internet?

Most affairs occur when a person falls head over heels with an idea, not a real person, but a fantasy that simply can't be competed with by any real human being on the planet. And what of your children if you begin down this road of seeking someone else to complete you?

You sound typically self entitled and condescending toward your husband. Frankly, you sound like the quintessential wayward spouse.

My marriage has been over for years. I haven't been happy for a long time. I have wasted the past ____ years of my life. Woe is me.

I know that isn't what you expected, but you do seem like the typical wayward wife to me. You might be able to prove me wrong, but whining about your pitiful life and how much better it would be with somebody else ain't gonna do it.

Want to make a better choice? How about deciding to do the right thing for a change...

Mark

Mark,

You're obviously a bitter man who possibly was cheated on??? Or in some way totally screwed over by a woman?? I don't know, but you've also OBVIOUSLY never lived with an alcoholic. My H took the stress of us having two new puppies, me being pregnant, and work and decided to go ahead and start drinking with no regard to me. I, all the while, was working like crazy and trying to take care of myself and him. That's how codependency begins, when one spouse begins taking care of the other spouse's responsibilities. It's not a good thing AT ALL. The proper thing to do would've been to leave him at that time. He even agrees that it might've done him good back then. Then I had our baby and was totally on my own. I was the only one taking care of the baby; he was drinking and passed out at night. It was scary being married to someone who was doing those things. Scary relying on someone doing those things. We got pregnant again later, things had calmed down, but sure enough, he became stressed and worried again and chose to drink it off. Some people jog or talk to a friend. He drank. Never once in my whole marriage did I speak to another man or any of that. We'd talked about divorce for years before this year when we mutually decided to split.

The guy I dug up, there's no chance in any way that we would ever get together. He lives 2000+ miles from me. Maybe I looked for him knowing he was safe to think about. I don't know. But I'm not having an affair. I'm just feeling really bad that if I do divorce, that I may never find love again. And if I stay with him, that I'll never be happy. He's very self involved. He took 15 grand out of our savings last year to go flying. Why? Because he thought it'd be a fun thing to do. He didn't consult me. He is quitting his job this spring with no job lined up. Why? Because he hates his boss. He didn't consult me. He just does what he wants. I think, not like you REALLY care, that Rose is right. It's just the idea of that OM that I like. It's not real. It doesn't matter. What matters is the present and I'm missing that intimacy and warmth that he gave me long long ago. He doesn't give me that now cuz we don't talk much except for a "How are you doing" email every once in a while. So, I tell you all of this only because it's good for me to write-it is a catharsis for me.

But, if you want to think I'm doing the wrong thing or whatever, go for it. I can't control you or anyone else-one thing I learned in alanon.

Good luck and I hope you solve the bitterness in your heart. It can only hurt you in the end. Anger kills the spirit.

You know, I don't think it's just people married to alcoholics that take on the responsibilities of their spouse, people tend to do it in work relationships, and other relationships as well.

Is it co-dependant? In some ways maybe, but it's also a boundaries issue. Not allowing others to suffer the natural consequences of their choices.

I've worked for companies where two or three people would "sit and talk on the phone or to each other, or be online" and not get their jobs done, and then come time to go home their work isn't complete and asking everyone else to HELP finish their work, and of course IF someone refuses to stay and help they are looked at as "not a team player." Which only encourages the problem, and shows the person who is NOT performing their work it's okay to goof off and everyone else will cover for you.

And many people do this in their personal relationships as well, mostly out of fear of being left or going into debt or whatever if they don't pick up the slack. And in marriage it's easy for this to happen especially when their are kids involved because you don't want your kids neglected.

Maybe read the book Boundries in Marriage, and see if that offers some insight for you to address these issues, before you run to the divorce court.

PR99,

You'll just have to trust me on this that I am not bitter...I am in fact even smiling as I type this.

I asked the question I did because you seemed to be attempting to justify this relationship with this guy from 2000 miles away.

Honestly, I could care less, but when ever anyone seems to be in a mode of justifying a relationship of any kind with anyone not their spouse, I get very suspicious very quickly.

I have no desire to pick on you or to cause you any further grief, so I'll just leave you alone though you didn't actually answer my question.

PR, here's my condensed version of what a girl goes through. May not be true for everyone but, based on what I've read on the subject, it's pretty predictable. Hope it helps.

What I’ve learned about girls and fathers is that when girls turn 10 or 12, they start seeing the world through male/female bonding vision. As in, it is my role in life to be the mate to a male; how do I do that? It starts out very innocently, of course, but as they age, the girls start noticing things, like differences in guys and girls; how girls may get something from a guy just cos she’s cute or flirts with him. Or how guys have fun flirting with girls. It all starts looking very interesting. Around the same time, in a healthy family, she will also look at her own family, and suddenly see her father as one of those males she’s noticing. Not in a sick way, but in a ‘hmmm, why did I never notice he’s one, too?’ way. So she starts gravitating toward him, picking up signals on how males and females interact. She starts trying to emulate what her mother does that attracts her father (that’s why girls turn out like their moms); in some cases, she even starts trying to win her father’s affection away from her mother. In moderation, all very healthy. Kind of like play acting for real adulthood in a safe environment.

The father responds to this by noticing his daughter growing into womanhood and naturally pulls back some; no longer giving tickle fights or other things that would be inappropriate for a man and woman to do. He may not even be aware he’s doing this; it’s just human nature. He starts treating her with the respect a woman deserves – because he loves her, and she learns from this, also. A man who loves a woman treats her with respect and never makes her uncomfortable. As she ages, this healthy environment reinforces her care for herself, her expectation that men should treat her with respect, and her desire to find a man of her own, as good as her mom has.

Now, switch over to an unhealthy family. If the father is abusive to the mother or daughter, the daughter will still love her father and want to gain his respect; she can’t help that, it’s ingrained. But she’ll learn that she only gets the respect by engaging in the dysfunctional dance he perpetrates, by giving up of herself to please him or to keep him from abusing her, like he did with her mother. Thus she learns that this is the relationship she should seek as an adult; it’s all she knows. Dooming herself to failed marriages when her self-worth tells her she deserves better (if it’s strong enough) or bad marriages (if it isn’t).

Now, look at a family without a father, or one whose father leaves before the formative pre-teen/teen years during which she’s supposed to get the healthy lessons on relationships from her father. Without him there at all, she learns that she is unloveable, just like her mother (unless we’re talking about a death). If he leaves before or during that time, she learns that her actions make her unloveable, so she never trusts her own beliefs, as they were responsible for driving away the one man who is supposed to love her (and yes, kids do blame themselves for their parent leaving, as silly as that sounds). In the meantime, she is getting none of the cues she needs for seeing how a man loves a woman in a healthy relationship. Instead she sees no relationship, or unhealthy ones (if her mother keeps seeking out men, who typically just want her for sex or abuse), or she gets her data from the media – and we all know how messed up that is! She desperately wants to know how to act with guys, as she’s getting to the age where interaction is important. But she hasn’t been getting any strokes from a respectable guy who solidifies her self-worth and her importance as a female or young woman.

She plays it by ear, using whatever cues she HAS gotten, most of which are telling her there’s something wrong with her. She has no father being proud of her softball game, or looking at her grades, or commenting how pretty she is in her party dress. At her age, 12-15, chances are good any guy she meets up with will only be interested in her for sex; no room for respect and romance and anything but groping and selfishness as the boy, too, learns about everything. And the boy’s culture high-fives him for ‘getting some’ while the girl is reviled for doing so. So, while she may feel confused about not wanting to do something that only makes her feel like an object, she learns early on (without a healthy support system) that if she doesn’t give in, she gets dumped, and the good-looking and popular boys never give her the time of day, solidifying even more for her the feeling that she is worth less than other girls; but if she does give in, she gets a reputation, and gets even more boys asking her out just for sex, not for her. She’s screwed either way.

By the time she’s 18, she’s convinced she has nothing of value to offer, nothing to be proud of, and is only good for pleasing a guy – on HIS terms. It’s never been and never will be about her. She takes that knowledge, that self-hate, into her relationships, selecting men who treat her how she expects to be treated – like crap. And when they do, she agrees with them and feels she has no right to seek anything else. So she spends the rest of her life hating herself, hating her life, and sabotaging any real chances for healthy relationships.

PR

Whatever you decide with your own marriage is really up to you and your husband.

But, this other guy is going to be married. HE IS OFF LIMITS. Obsess all you like. But, there is a THIRD party involved here. A party you have no right to become involved with. Please remember that.

PR,

I'm a BS, so I'll get that out of the way up front.

Everyone here, regardless of forum, has (or has had) issues w/ their spouse.

I will, in no way, belittle the impact of alcohol on the family...I know...

All I'll say is that if you've read any of Dr Harley's info on infidelity, you'll know that you are going down the path to an EA, whether the potential OM is aware or is complicit or not.

It's easy to do. You are unhappy in your marriage--husband is not fulfilling your ENs--someone else gives you some FEELINGS you have long-since forgotten. It's obvious to those reading here.

A couple of questions...

You say you're separating in the spring...who's idea was it?

You say he's not happy about it and is now showing feelings.

Why the rush to separate?

It appears you're focusing more on the idea of the OM rather than the marriage.

I'd suggest you drop the idea of OM and focus on YOU first, then try to get a handle on what's REALLY going on in your marriage.

I'm guessing communication is an issue btwn you two. Have you tried any kind of counseling...together?

As difficult as it may seem, it's possible your husband has tried to communicate that you're not fulfilling HIS ENs. Are you fulfilling his?

I'd suggest reading HNHN and filling out the ENQ and LBQ and ask him to as well...It could be instructive.

Hope this helps, and I wish you all the luck and strength for the upcoming difficult road.

Just, PLS, don't make it any MORE difficult by involving one too many people in your marriage... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

L2F

I think I've miscommunicated seeing that more than a couple of people are telling me I'm about to have an EA or that I'm in one already. Let me be clear, what I mean by "obsessing" is that I'm fantisizing in a way down memory lane. Not WITH the OM, but by myself. I'm remembering the ways he was and the way he made me feel. I'm feeling like it's not right to be even thinking about this stuff too much which is why I even posted this in the first place-to get insight as to why my mind is even going there. OM and I RARELY speak. We ONLY have the occasional email of "How's it going. THis is what's new in my life." THat's it. No romance, no memories shared, nothing. But, I have thought about him a lot.

I realize that with codependency comes the desire to find value in oneself OUTSIDE of oneself. ANd that's a disease within itself. My mind is diseased. Partly from living with an active alcoholic and partly from the upbringing I had. That's the fact.

I do what I can to get out of unhealthy thinking-I read, I get busy, I post on boards, I talk to a real friend (girlfriend), etc. I went to Alanon for the first time tonight.

SO, please, I am not having an EA and I know it's wrong to have even just an EA without the physical. We know that. It's more like "Why am I obsessing about this guy?" "Why can't I be happy with just me around?" "Why am I looking for happiness in others, and not in myself?" The classic codependent wakes up every day and asks her spouse, "What mood are YOU in so I can know how I will feel today?" Seriously.

So, to answer some questions, I am not justifying an EA because I am not having one.

I am not in a rush to separate. It was both of our ideas and we've talked about it for YEARS. We got pregnant again and decided to try to work things out. The baby is now one year old and we still are not getting along at all. We saw three counselors. I ended up going by myself and he stopped going saying they're all full of it when they tried to tell him he's an alcoholic. We tried relocating. He said it'd be a fresh start. Things would be better. He wouldn't drink "as much." NO. YOu can run, but you can't hide...our problems followed us here.

He says he's not happy about the separation and is showing feelings now that he feels he's about to lose me. He doesn't like to show feelings and shows them only when the you know what is about to hit the fan. No, I don't meet his EN. More importantly, I don't meet my own...I've been looking to meet his or my mom's or whatever...never my own. OM just became a thought in my head which I kept thinking about. But now after reading more and going on boards and going to alanon, I realize that I need the fixing. I can't fix my H. I can't fix LIFE. I can't fix where I am at in life. But I can help myself get better and MAYBE I can positively influence H???? Maybe.

He doesn't think he has a drinking issue or any other issues really.

Well, that's my two cents. I only came with this post to seek guidance and some insight into the PROBLEM of obsessing over someone outside of the marriage. It's not something I think is correct or something I want to be doing.

But it's better today. Today I'm thinking more about me.

This seems alot like my current marraige except I am the alcoholic. I know it has been a problem for me for many years. I didn't understand that until she wanted to seperate and I stopped drinking. She never told alcohol was the problem, she told me the problem was me.

Although it's too late for me to save this marraige (I believe), we never really communicated well. I suck at communicating with women, it always comes out wrong. I would have listened to her, if she only would have focused on our relationship instead of giving up.

Erinn, I'm sorry you are finding yourself in that position. Do you mind an observation? I figure that you're open to some guidance in what to avoid, so that this R, or any future ones, will turn out as you hope.


I understand your frustration, but these are three examples in a very short post, laying part of the blame at your W's feet. I'm sure she has contributed to your problems, and I'm sure you have room to be upset. However. The road to reconciliation, based on the alcoholism, will be completely paved with your rebuilding of her trust in you, the trust you started out with in each other, but was whittled away one bottle at a time.

Other problems in your M aside, one of the best ways to rebuild that trust is to take the burden of blame on your own shoulders. Not so you look good to her, but so you can begin to totally believe that it was the drinking that tore it all up. Without believing that, without mentally prostrating yourself at her feet, you won't completely change your perception. It will always be 'if only she' or 'I could have if she would have' or 'I just didn't know.' See the difference?

Not trying to bust your marbles, just point out something you're probably not even aware you're doing. If you want her back, peel back all the layers and bare your soul.

Good luck!

PR, thank you for your heartfelt response.

I read your other post and understand more now.

My intent was to offer some "alternative thought processes", as that's one of the reasons I come here myself...

I wish you the best of luck

L2F

Erinn,

I hope you take this to heart. One thing I know is I've learned A LOT through reading and being a member of an online alanon group and even the first meeting I've attended at alanon which was last night. Please let me pass this on to you. It is not your wife's job to tell you stuff so you'll realize it. And she is 100% right in that the problem is you and not the alcohol. One thing that I finally GOT yesterday reading all this alanon literature was that alcoholism really is a disease. The person has a disease and the drinking is only a symptom. Sometimes that symptom will even go away for a while, but always comes back unless that person goes into recovering to arrest this disease. THe problem is you. It's not the alcohol.

I have also learned that when anyone says they just suck at something and it always comes out wrong, i.e. "I don't say anything right! I'm always doing something wrong!" it really deeply means they aren't willing to change or really discuss what needs to be discussed. It's a way of avoiding the whole conversation because you "suck" and it always comes out wrong anyhow. You get off the hook believing you are flawed and therefore you have yet one more reason to drink. And if someone gets mad at you for saying that kind of stuff, even more reason to drink. win win for the alcoholic.

My H tries to tell me that he would've listened to me if only I'd said things a certain way and stuff like that. I'm not buying it anymore. Man, she could've said stuff a hundred and twenty two different ways and you would have still been drinkin'. You are the one who chose to drink and let it take you over and now, well, you may not even have the choice anymore. Man takes a drink, time goes by, drink takes the man. Your only salvation, in my opinion, is AA.

My only salvation is alanon. I hated that. I hated to think I was that screwed up that I need to go to some damn alanon meetings every week. But you know what, I am so glad that I did go and I now know I will continue to go because it is a Godsend...and I'm not even all religious either...but it's a Godsend.

I do think it's great you've become aware you're an alcoholic. SO, what's your next step? I wonder if you are going to AA now? You said you stopped drinking. That's like saying "I think I"ll stop having pneumonia now." Seriously. You will be drinking again if you don't get into a serious recovery program. YOu could even start going online till you get the courage to really change. Nothing changes if nothing changes right?