My perspective is from a FWS position.
Trust is probably the key issue in any recovery even should love still be strong, without trust in the longer term its not a real recovery IMHO.
Trust should not have ever been granted in a marriage as a right as such, it should have built up over time as the relationship built which led to marriage. So once its gone it takes time to rebuild and thats the job of both FWS and BS .... though I feel the FWS should take the lead in this area. I mean we are the ones who stuffed it up aren't we?
A BS should not be willing to just pretend it didn't happen ... at least I don't think they should ... yet nor should they keep it hanging over the FWS head not if they really want to recover. Is that hard? I bet it's probably one of the hardest things a spouse has to do even including forgiveness. How do you get rid of the anger and pain? Most times you have to let it out and as with the FWS you should be honest and let your spouse know when you are hurting and why. That isn't to beat the FWS about the head constantly but to explain why you are angry or short with them .. because being human you will be. .. and somewhere along the line the two of you working on that can help you both. It did me.
My DH called me every name in the book... I can;t say I didn't work at earnign them because I had ... did it hurt you bet.... but it hurt worse knowing I had hurt him so much that he yelled at me and swore at me .... that his anger made him that way ... that I had lessened him that way.... or at the very least led him down that path.

Most of us FWS are absolutely petrified of being totally honest about issues and problems during and post recovery because we believe you will kick us to the kerb if we disagree or have doubts or get angry. We expect to be treated just like we treated you.... but feel you have a justified reason for it.

My husband EXPECTED me to be honest to not to keep secrets and to explain where I was, or what I was doing.. he didn't demand it ... he left that to me to show I was committed. And that was hard because I used to get almost hysterical if I was late home and couldn't ring him.. meanwhile he was not that demanding .... you see he didn't want a Mrs I'm so sorry... he wanted a wife a partner the mother of his kids... me .... it would have been easy for him to take advantage of my abject self pity and remorse ... but he didn't. He just wanted me to earn the trust back ... earn it not expect it.... and he put it in my hands to do that.
see if I didn't EARN it I wouldn't respect it.... and I was so much harder on me than he would have been.... but didn't just leave me hanging there ... he let me more and more abck into his life and told me so. Boy were those talks hard.

You see he protected me ... from me ... my remorse,,,, his hate of what I did .... and it took a lot patience on his part.
I don't think there is any exact plan for any BS to follow other than those things already discussed previously in MB ... mostly its a journey that you have to take with your FWS .... or decide not too. And its painful ... humiliating .... angry ... just pure [censored] ,,, for something you didn't do.
My husband told me after the all the initial recovery doubts and fears he wasn't going to put much energy into wondering if I would cheat again .... his life would be too short to keep hold of that doubt ..... . he would live his life with me because he wanted to.
Is our marriage better? No I killed the first one .... we have a new marriage ... not better as such ... more understanding of each other... more loving compassion for each others faults ... it's different.. not any less than the first .... and love is our centre.. not just the kids or family or whatever ... our love... and it has room for all the rest.

t/j sorry...just wanted to say to aussieswife THANK YOU for sharing your perspective. It is truly helpful, may we all be so fortunate to have a WS that understands.

Aussiewife - did you have any false recoveries? I cannot recall.

I think the EXPECTATION of honesty , and more importantly, the HOPE of honesty is far more remote after 3 false recoveries.

I am NOT saying a full recovery is not possible ..... not at all.

I AM saying it will take longer and involve more effort on the WS's part ... after 3 false recoveries.

The BS heart has been broken, dared to heal and trust bit by bit, and then RE broken ..... 3.5 times ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"]Guess who wrote this .... [/color]

"The path that leads to recovery is very narrow, and
unless couples find that path, the tragedy of an affair can
permanently cripple a marriage and often leads to the
further tragedy of divorce."

Nothing specific. I can just sense that there will be this push to focus on the future. Sort of a "I understand why you want that, but that makes your WW unhappy, so do you want to do something that makes her unhappy?"


No, the MC is fine. Similar to what I said above. I doubt the MC will push either way, but it will get "put" to me.


JL - thanks, this is what I am trying to sort out.

Aussiewife - yes, you've hit on a lot of the things I was asking about.


Most notably the last part is what I'm asking opinions of. I think the MC and WW will say I understand why you feel justified, but it doesn't make it right. And I don't just mean fundamentally right, but also not right in terms of the best thing to do if your goal is recovery.

rprynne, if it makes your W 'unhappy" to open up her life to you, for example, then that would be a boundary issue for you. But then I don't know what you are talking about specifically so it is hard to comment.

Dr. Harley does say this and it may or may not be applicable:

I agree that it is difficult to comment without knowing specifically what issue you are talking about.

With the information at hand, it sounds like a battle between "giving trust" and "earning trust".

I have found that most MC's believe that the method for recovering after an affair is for the BS to extend trust to the WS so that they can prove themselves trustworthy.

I am relieved that Dr. Harley doesn't quite view it that way. My impression of his recovery plan (and what I like about it) is that it is so logical.

The focus isn't at all on the BS forcing themselves to extend trust, while their instincts are telling them otherwise (and for good reason).

He seems to me to place the focus on ACTIONS that will build trust and creating conditions that AVOID having to trust.

It doesn't make sense at all to me to keep doing the same things over and over again that led to an affair and hoping that no future affairs will occur.

REMOVE those conditions.

I am leery of any MC that is telling you to try to force yourself to feel okay with something that you really are not okay with (if that is indeed the case here).

Nice post Froz

Amen, froz.. I am glad you are posting to rprynne. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Froz, Mel and Pep,

Thanks for the advice. I will try to give one example of what I mean. Take business travel. I would prefer my WW no longer travel. This is something that I would not have cared about in the past. I travel for business. If I bring it up, my WW assumes that I'm against it because I don't trust her. While trust is certainly a part of it, its not the whole thing. To me, any time apart is a problem. At least for the short term.

When the MC steps in, this, and other items like this will be thrown into the mix to be negotiated. Points like this will get talked and adjusted, etc, but in the end, it will come down to do you want to end your M over this point.

Maybe Froz is right that it is about trust. I don't know. Maybe its about avoiding consequences.

I sense that my WW is saying to me, I'm not cheating on you, so I don't understand why you want this or that or why this or that bothers you. If I say, I want those things because you did cheat on me, then it is viewed as vindictive or punitive.

So which is it, consequences or punishment?

I think both my WW and the MC will say its irrelevant because you shouldn't have to "suffer" either one.

I guess for me the ironic part is I feel the same way. And I don't mean that I feel my WW should not have to deal with the consequences, I mean I shouldn't.

To a certain extent, the battle ground is forgiveness and faith.

I have asked my WW to forgive my behaviors of the past, and have faith that the way I am now is an accurate representation of how I will be. I don't want to be treated based on how I was at my worst, but preferrably how I am now and how I was at my best, or minimally, how I have been overall.

When a WS becomes a FWS, do you have to do the same thing?

No traveling is a consequence of her having an affair. No overnights apart from your spouse is something Dr. Harley promotes and in your case would be an added layer of protection. Have you and your FWW discussed boundaries?

Yes and no, IMHO. She has to earn your trust back. Trust is not just freely given, especially to someone who betrayed you. Again, I would say it depends on consistant change and behavior as well as her understanding boundaries. In my case, I was a WW a long time ago. My H trusts me and treats me as someone he can trust. Why? Because I made changes, set personal boundaries and learned as much as I could about why I did what I did to prevent slipping down that slope again. I earned back his trust.

Neither. It is called affair proofing your marriage. The conditions that made your marriage vulnerable to an affair have to change. Or your marriage will CONTINUE to be vulnerable to an affair.

Does she want to affair proof your marriage? Does she want to ensure that you never have to endure another trauma such as this? If not, Then overnight travel should be eliminated. If she wants more of the same, then she should continue to do the same thing.

But be assured that doing the SAME THING will not avail you different results.


Exactly. She should not want to ever ever subject you to the suffering of another affair. There is no greater suffering. Her being gone overnight, no doubt, causes you great suffering and should be avoided at all costs. Adultery is as traumatic as RAPE or the death of a child. MT should want to avoid EVER inflicting that kind of suffering on you again, rprynne.


Sheesh, you sound as foggy as a wayward, rprynne.

Shouldn't you be treated HOW YOU ARE? That is like asking someone to treat the bankrobber as he was when he was BOY SCOUT and ignore the fact that he is a bankrobber today.

Margie is not at her best, she is at her WORST. She is not trustworthy so it would be silly to treat her as if she were. To afford trust to an untrustworthy person would be STUPID; it would mean leaving yourself vulnerable for more assaults. That is not in your best interest or hers.

This post really scares me, rprynne and I wonder if you have not become as foggy as Margie after having dealt with 3.5 false recoveries. I fear you are now headed straight for #4.5.

Please read this article over and over again until it becomes an integral part of you. Because I see your eagerness to hand out cheap, undeserved forgiveness to be the root of the problem. That, along with an inability to observe simple, basic boundaries.

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
Dr. Willard Harley

Excerpt:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

[color:"red"] "In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated." [/color]

Dr. Willard Harley, a pretty damn smart guy

Yes...till I'm blue in the face.


Really? I must not be communicating my thoughts correctly.


I agree that you should be treated how you are. I'm not seeking advice on whether Margie is trustworthy right now, I know the answer to that. I've posted my opinion on that.

But we still remain at an impasse.

I don't know how one defines when a WS crosses over and becomes a FWS. But many WS (my WW included) seem to think that once you stop contact with OP, they become a FWS, or even just an S. I don't agree with that, but am I really going to get anywhere arguing that point with my WW? No.

If I were in a situation where Margie really knew what it meant to earn the "f", this wouldn't be an issue. But she's entrenched. That's her reality.

And this is back to where the MC will come in, asking if I want to argue about objective or subjective reality or move forward.


I don't feel foggy. I don't see how it could become another false recovery. It either will be a recovery or a divorce.


I don't have any desire to hand out undeserved forgiveness. But I also don't want to do this dance anymore.

Do you feel loved and appreciated by your W?

Reality is reality, regardless of our ability to discern it. And the reality is that unless you have a RATIONAL PLAN of recovery and 2 willing particpants, there will be no recovery.



An impasse about what?



Feelings are not truth. You are saying all the things a fogged out wayward says and I suspect you are trying to convince yourself of them because you want so badly to believe this is different this time.

I don't see any hope here of any of the things that will facilitate a recovery, except some wishful thinking. What do you see here that gives you hope?

What am I missing?


Meaning...?

Not really loved, partially appreciated


I see several things that are different. She's here. She's been here for almost a month, which is a record. And when she came back it was complete. Not like the other times when there was always some odd circumstance. She brought her car back, she brought all her clothes back, she brought her cat back, she closed her checking account and opened one here. She no longer has an office at her work.

She set up the MC. She called him and set up the appointment, she went to the appointment, she set up the second appointment, she went to that. She filled out the questionaire's for the MC. When we were at the MC she is the one that brought up the A, and she told the MC that she wants us to discuss that.

She has asked to cancel her cell phone and replace it with one on my account. She has given me the passwords to her e-mail and checking accounts. She answers her cell phone everytime I call, or returns the call within minutes. She has no unaccounted for time. She is trying to meet my EN's.

She has done all these things with no coaxing or delaying or stalling or resentment.

I have seen nothing that indicates continued contact.

So, all told, I think most would be pleased with this if one were a couple of weeks or months past d-day.

I know some WS's can do some deceitful things to get what they want, but this would be a pretty elaborate production if her goal was to continue seeing OM and leave me. What could she possibly be gaining?


Not really anything specific. I guess its just neither of us trust the other one to take care of us. Both of us think we have good reason to behave that way. So, the business travel illustrates my point. I believe I have good reason to object to her taking business trips. Its not that I think she will use them to cheat on me, or that I think an occassional business trip ruins a M. I think its a slippery slope, that will require Margie to manage them in a way that protects me, makes me feel safe, demonstrates care for me, etc. I don't trust she will do that, given our past. She, on the other hand views work (and the related business travel) as essential to her happiness. She feels if she gives on that, it is also a slippery slope, that will lead to her giving on other things. If she gives on that and those other things, it will require me to do things that make it worth her giving up something that makes her happy. She doesn't trust that I will do that, given our past.


When I say the same dance, I mean we've had this arguement before. You can replace business travel with 10 or 15 other things along the way, but essentially the same arguement, both pre-A and post-A. So far, we've had two outcomes. We give up and withdraw, or one of us gives in and in many cases (not all, but many) doesn't live up to the agreement because we were only giving in to end the arguement.

As we progress through MC, this is going to come up and its going to get into a negotation. An attempt to reacy a third outcome relative to our past. Mediated POJA, if one wants to call it that. As I think about that, it occurs to me that what I can or could enthusiastically agree to is different depending on whether my W is a WS, a FWS, or someone who never had an A. That's the thrust of my question. I'm not confused on whether you should treat a WS the same as a FWS. I'm not asking if Margie is a WS or a FWS. I'm asking should you treat a FWS the same as someone who never had an A.

As a BS with 3.5 false recoveries, my first reaction is "no way". But, as a BS I'm a little biased. And, as I wrote in the other post, it strikes me as unfair that I am asking Margie to treat me as a BS who never was controlling or prone to DJ's and AO's. This is not to say I think our past behaviors were equal or work as justification, its just recognizing that the concepts are similar.

I'm still a little preplexed about some of this advice.

Is the advice that I should wait until my WW says "I'll do whatever it takes for as long as it takes" before lifting a finger.

This sounds like the very definition of Sacrifice, also known as the "Win/Lose" method of working out a problem or disagreement. What happened to POJA?

If she resists POJA, that's a huge sign that she still has a wayward mindset because you can't POJA dating other people. That's why the wayward just HATE the POJA.


If you've had 3.5 false recoveries - uh - I'd say that's a big YES on that one. Otherwise, you are only setting yourself up for heartbreak again.

Look - there are several of us on this forum who have settled for far less than we should. We had every reason to kick our unrepentant waywards to the curb and start over with someone who might actually care about us, but we stayed because we could not bring ourselves to leave. You may be one of those.

We tried to start a thread on this, but I think all of us were too ashamed to post to it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You just have to decide what you can live with and what you can't. If it is still more painful to leave than it is to stay and live with her neglect and disrespect, you do have the right to make that choice - but it's not going to make her care.

As long as you fully understand that, you'll be ok.
Mulan