Spike,
I have to play devil's advocate here and hope you do not take any offense. Are you sure you want a woman who has a stated #1 EN of money and has acted on that need by having an affair? What happens if you get sick and cannot work? Will she simply up and leave?
The way you have described her, she comes across to me as a very shallow and manipulative woman, telling you exactly what you need to hear to keep you as a safety net.

I think its great that you are rediscovering your worth and acting on it, but if I were you, I would think long and hard about letting a woman back into your life who seems to only want you for what she can get out of you. Are you so sure that you don't deserve something better? A woman who recognizes more than just your net worth, perhaps?

I know that I could never regain my respect for a woman who treated me like her best friend, told me she loved me, and THEN went back to her affair partner who "made her unhappy".

I think you should drop an atom bomb on his career regarding his hacking your email account, lock down a great job, and go directly into Plan B. Let them deal with the fallout and when she comes crawling back, YOU will set the terms for recovery, if you still want it.

Spike,

Andrew3's post:

""who treated me like her best friend, told me she loved me, and THEN went back to her affair partner who "made her unhappy".""

This has always been the "unreal" part of this whole scenario.

That and the lust for $$$$.

Also she says pride, she means CONFIDENCE.

kirk

Spike,

I tend to agree with Andrew on this one. You are still being used, you are still only valued IF you bring in enough money. You are not being valued for yourself, Mr. Nice Guy. I hate to say this but being Mr. NG is a thing to be proud of. Being a man that a woman can simply run over is not.

But, here is the point, there are two sides to this. Your W's job IF SHE LOVED you would be to NOT take advantage of Mr. NG, but to enjoy him and love him. She did not do this. She went with OM, and she remains with OM (although she claims not to be happy). That tells me she would rather be UNHAPPY with OM, than happy with you.

I hate to rain on your parade, but unless HER perspective changes considerably, there is no way she would follow me anywhere. You do need to get a good job. Get one you will enjoy, in a place you will enjoy, and move on with your life. She is still a WW and will be until her perspective about you and her appreciation of you changes from one of simply money and a good "girl friend" to that of a man that loved her enough to sacrifice a great deal for her. She did not and does not appreciate what you did, why would she really appreciate what you are becoming??? Oh!yes it's the money. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Son, you are learning about what plan A is really about. You are learning WHY Harley always felt that more marriages could be saved. It wasn't that people didn't try, it was that they spent their time trying to please their spouse in ways the spouse didn't really need.

While it is gratifying that she appreciates the more "manly" Spike, it is not nearly enough. She needs to be doing some changing on her part or you will be left in the ditch the first time you cannot meet her standards. She shows no remorse, she chooses unhappy with OM over being with you, and she does not appreciate what you have doen, even if you didn't do it very well.

I am not saying this is over, I am saying you are missing a few pieces of the puzzle and until she brings you those pieces (her changes, her work on herself, her appreciation and her love), you will NOT truly recover this marriage.

I can be done, but it will only be done when YOU start to express to her, how little you respect her decisions, and what you do expect from her in the way of behavior, changes, and perspective.

You have done well so far, but do not settle. This marriage must be rebuilt from both sides, not just one.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I am going to think some more on this and post later but you are right and it does worry me.
The thing with money being a high EN is that she is actually a foreigner in a foreign country with a child from a previous marriage, quite young, so she doesnt have any support from govt. or from family thats one reason why money is high up, so that she can support herself and son, but its not all of it though and she is a woman who would like a good life without having to work too much at it.
Anyway more later & thanks

I hate to say it but i think you have all got her down accurately mostly.
It is a confidence thing, as far as I go she doesnt believe i have changed the things she is unhappy with and is frightened if she did come back things would be the same, hence why she stays with him. She may be unhappy but she is MORE afraid that if she comes back to me it will be worse the same as before, unfortunately we have that history she does not with him.

I know she didn't appreciate what I tried to do for her by coming to a new country for her and trying to start a business. Not 1% did she appreciate that, but was happy to be asking for money all the time.

If I am being honest, I know I can get a good job more likely in London not Japan. I feel with quite a lot of certainty that she would want to come back to me then and that would be a mixture of pride in myself being reinstated and chanegs to me but also the money.

However, she is one of these women that needs a lot of attention, especially from guys. She doesnt sleep with a lot of men and hasnt in her life but she is very beautiful and needs people to affirm that by flirting when she is out and sometimes going too far or being dressed too revealingly. As she gets towards 40 as well she is getting worse in this respect. She is a conundrum, on one hand because of that I can't see her staying for many years happy with me even if I changed because of her need for excitement and affirmation BUT on the other hand she doesnt sleep around and mostly has a good heart in the way she treats people.

Then she can be manipulative at the same time.

She is a really mixed person. Thats why I, if I am being honest swing from she's my wife and I love her and want to fix this, because I do feel that I wont find anybody like her again to on the other hand, she wont change ever, she will get worse as she gets older and she may well hurt me again.

I hope that makes sense. It's really difficult.

I am pretty sure she means what she said about coming to me when I have got myself sorted out, she actually said the same thing to her friends 6 months ago, when the affair started, unknown to me which is kind of telling really. Even then she can't have thought much about this other guy if she always had it in her mind that she would come back to me.

I know I have been a doormat, and am definitely going to try and break that now and keep her guessing what I am doing rather than her knowing I am sitting at home all the time, should definitely drive her crazy.

But you guys are right, very sad to say, in my heart I do have doubts that she is capable of ever being a truly loving wife. The only factor maybe her age and that she is getting close to 40 and is talking increasingly about being settled in one place and a generally more settled attitude, but equally I know I wuld find it very difficult to trust her going out alone or with friends because she is such a knock out and flirt that she could easily have 50 phone numbers in one evening.

I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place (just remembered the Simpsons Movie) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Spike,

How long have you been married?

And how long ago did she start the affair?

Thanks,

kirk

Nah,

You are not stuck Spike, you are just trying to have it both ways. You want a knock out W, your want her approval, and then you have the data. The data says she only values her appearance and perhaps her child. You are a conduit for her to show value.

Once you realize that SHE has to change, then you will realize you have to leave her alone so that she can change if in fact she will. You also realize you have to change, and what do you change??? Your perspective about yourself, your role in her life, your role in your own life. And for sure you need to change your perspective one what a good W is.

Neither spouse should have to jump through hoops to make the other happy. The idea that she left so that you would change and when you do change she will come back is on the face of it both very childish, and deeply manipulative on her part. The fact that you agree to this thinking or have in the past, suggest YOUR perspective on marriage and what it means to love one another needs to be, shall we say, sharpened up abit.

My point, go find that job, and before you leave explain to her what YOU need in a W, what you expect from a W, and what your boundaries are. The explain she need not follow you anywhere until she realizes that you will not accept her as she currently views you, herself, and her value.

One of the oddest thing I can say to you is what I am about to say to you. The fact that she values her beauty and her ability to flirt and attract men's attention means to me in my mind that your chances of having a good marriage are small. Why? I'm in my 60's now, been married for over 30 years. I was just looking at pictures of my W when she was in her 20's and she was attractive. But, in my eyes she is better looking today. You could say "man this guys eyes must be failing" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and you would be right, but what makes the beauty is the years, the children, the life experiences, and the sharing of life.

If your W only values what you say she does and she is only 40 now, then she will become very unhappy as she ages and that unhappiness will spill over into your marriage and by definition on to you. You will be denied seeing your W what I get to see in mine and you will regret it and miss it deeply.

What people are not factoring in is that at age 40, you two can reasonably expect to be married another 40 or 50 years. Are they going to be good and happy years? Or are they going to be spent with her trying to recapture her youth and you looking over your shoulder hoping that you don't mess up?

I am not saying just dump her. I am saying get your life sorted out, and don't accept her back until her perspective on herself and you changes dramatically. You will love her, and you will never find a woman just like her, but you can find women out there that are unique in their own right and would make superior spouses.

She is in an affair, so any discussions with her, and promises she makes are going to be tainted with the lie that is her life. Just work on yourself and getting your life back on track. What she decides to do is up to her, just tell her YOUR expectations of what a good W is. She clearly doesn't meet them now, perhaps she will understand that and change her perspective, and perhaps she will not.

Please consider this.

God Bless,

JL

I know you are right and have probably known for a long time.
I really thought I had found it all, a beautiful woman but also with a good heart, loving, supportive etc.
But being honest there were warning signs to start with but I ignored them. Only recently at the end of last year we were in Tokyo and I had three separate people, all older men, Japanese and Irish say to me "be careful of her" just from how she was dressed, talking etc. and thats when she wasnt being downright flirtatious, just from her attitude. It wasn't bad it was just she was dressed sexily, very friendly, chatty etc. There is something captivating in her that men love but at the same time older guys can see as being dangerous.

I agree with you about lifes eperiences and the woman in your life getting more beautiful. I am 33, but value respect, honesty, friendship and sharing your life and want someone to be there and grow old together. I dont think she does.

And I know you are so right that she will get more and more unhappy. It has already started, she picks on tiny things that are not important about herself and obsesses over them, more than a normal woman and she is getting worse. She is 36 now and I think that as she gets towards 40 she will get really bad.

She is not a horrible person and really tries hard for friends but at the same time has a messed up view of relationships and values.

Maybe I love the idea more of what I thought she was rather than what she actually is.

I am going to work on myself, but maybe I shouldn't be trying to get her back. Maybe I am better off without her in my life.

A marine friend of mine here said to me that as well, she will never change, and he knows her, he said she will always be looking for "attention" from guys. He said one guy is not enough for her and maybe he is right.

Spike,

I haven’t posted to you but after reading your entire thread, I feel that a few things should be said and you can take them for what it’s worth or chuck them.

You stated in the beginning of this thread that you had an epiphany. Good for you. Let’s build on that for a moment.

It would seem that you have come to the realization that chasing your WW and acting as a doormat is not healthy for your nor her. I would wholeheartedly agree. This was never the intent of plan a. Rather it was supposed to be about YOU becoming the best man that you could, regardless of how your WW reacts to it. Plan a is supposed to make you attractive to the WW, simply because they begin to realize, that you are an attractive person, with or without her.

Your plan a has been faulty and defective. You laid down your integrity in an all out hope to somehow woo your WW out of the arms of her lover and return to the M. This is NOT the true intent of plan a! This would simply be an act of manipulation that would lead to a very false recovery, that would surely not last for the rest of your life. Plan A means just what it says: It’s about making you the best person you can be, and then letting the chips fall where they may, with or without your WW. In the end, you become the better person for making the personal changes that will benefit you for the rest of your life. If WW tries to reconcile because of that, it then becomes YOUR decision whether to accept that or not. You see, control has been taken back by you, by ignoring your WW’s attitude, and applying your own standard to your life.

Plan a is successful, when you can stand in front of your own mirror and be pleased and happy at the image that is reflected back at you. If you can’t do this, your plan a is a dismal failure.

Based on others comment and my own personal opinion, you are wasting your time trying to win back a WW who would rather talk to you about her sex life with OM as if you were here confidant and friend. Time to move on, and for the record, I hate divorce. But you my friend, are spinning your wheels over something that is not going to lead to self recovery in all of this mess.

I hope you don’t take offence, but, you could become a much better man, a man God would be proud of, if you moved on and divorced your WW. You are not expected to live your life in limbo forever. You need to move forward, and if it does not include your WW, so be it. Be God’s man, and do what is right for your self.

Do you really want to live the rest of your life looking over your shoulder as others have suggested?
I would think not!

Decision time Spike, what do you want form the rest of your life?

All Blessings,
Jerry

edited to add this: You were a whole person before you met your WW, why do you not feel that you could not be be this once again, a whole persona, without her???

I agree with all who commented you would be better off leaving her.

Then again, I can't think of any posters on this forum who had their decision swayed to throw in the towel on attempted recovery due only to the advice given in this forum, odds are that decision will only be changed by the actions or choices made by your WW.

Would it be easier to leave? My experience says definately.

Would you be better off leaving? That's a decision only you can make, and live with.

If your not ready to throw in the towel. It back to work.

Plan A. Repairing yourself for this, or your even your next relationship. Either way you are a better person as result.

"IF" she told you today, I'm ready to commit to spike and only spike.. How will you respond?

What is your timeline to dump plan A, for plan B or D?

-JKT

Absolutely. Well said.

Spike, I think you really, really must sit down with someone who knows both you and your wife (perhaps that insightful Marine), someone who won't mince words and who'll give you honest information and opinions. Reading between the lines in what you've told us, it's becoming clearer your wife has been controlling you for some time ... and she still is. You're dangling on a string, you're "there" for her while she's sleeping with another man! Pardner, it's time for you to do a cold-blooded analysis of your wife's character. I think you need to do this in the same way you would work on a business deal -- what do you see your WW doing five years from now?

T/J alert...

JKT...



There are lessons to be learned there? Please, tell me what they might be!!

Don't you hate it when everyone else "understands" what's going on with you except you?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

L2F

Not lessons.. Changes...

You must see that L2F?

-JKT

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes, big changes...but oh so slow...

It's hard to come out from under your own fantasy about what you wished your marriage to be.

Oh ya, timelines and expectations rarely agree.

Keep the press!

bumping for Spike,

How goes it?

Sorry for the quiet spell, been thinking on what you guys have said.
Firstly, last 7-10 days have been weird. She has changed her pattern of when she sees me. She is staying with me until later in the day during the week and is taking more risks as well with when she is with me, where she is with me etc. more chance of him or his friends seeing her.
I went out last weekend which to put it mildly made her quite angry I had gone out.
So what happened tonight (Friday), she comes over to my place, the first time, by the way, and spends all night with me just watching tv and talking until 5am, she would never have taken that risk before.
I think she is rattled by my new attitude change and she is telling me he is working late a lot and at the weekends so I am wondering whether the OM is getting tired of her and is either finding excuses or has found someone else.

As for what you guys said before about divorce.
I guess I know you are right, I feel power that leaving her is the rightt think when I dont see or speak to her.
Then I see her and I remember all the good things, and I think about what I would be losing.
Though there are also bad things I would be losing!

Maybe Plan B soon will be the answer and give me the power to leave, I dont know.

Its like I kind of know she isnt a good long term proposition and that even if she came back to me her number one fault of a desire to be found attractive will lead to more lying, resentment and jealously and maybe another affair BUT we had such good times and such a connection she is also finding that hard to break.

I'm a bit confused what is going on with her at the moment, she is changing staying with me longer, later, more risks, especially tonight. Normally she wouldnt speak to me from Friday 4.30 until Monday 11am out of risk of one phone call and the OM hearing her!! So incredible change to spend the night with me.....I am confused again. I had it worked out and now Im confused again.

No doubt she will probably have a huge argument when she gets back especially if her son pipes up he was in my car then I wont hear from her for a couple of days until the storm settles.

Seriously confused!

Just wanted to add.....trouble in paradise....
Looks like they are having big problems now. She told me the arguing A LOT now, she has been crying a lot and she found something about another woman, so maybe he is seeing or talking to someone else.
She called me and said to me she wants to talk to me, I asked her if she wanted to finish our marriage and she said "No Quite the Opposite"
Sounds like its crumbling....

"If" your heart is still with recovering your M. "When" she asks you to take her back, do you have your boundries laid out?

If you do not set boundries, and hold her feet to the fire, you "will" find out about false recovery, numerous D-days, etc. She will continue to make contact with him, simular to the way she does with you at the moment. She will continue to eat cake.

She need be fully aware, it's all or nothing. No gray area subject to interpretation. That you will no longer except less than a 100% committed M. If that is not exceptable, the door is not open for additional pain and suffering.

Considering her previous responses, she may even respect you for this.

Make yourself a list now. Post it here for review and response.

Oh ya, DO NOT rush a response when she asks to return. Stall, and let her sweat a bit.

She deserves to fear you are coming to terms with a life without her.


-JKT

I cannot agree more with JKT.
I would stall the talk until you have had a chance to write down all of your requirements for reconciliation. It seems that up until this point, your wife has operated under the impression that she can do what she wants and you are there as a fall back option. It is imperative that you emphatically disillusion her of this notion.

So when she says "I want to come home", you don't respond with "You can move in right now!", but with something more like "I want to recover this marriage and I want to improve my ability to meet your emotional needs, but there are certain things I require your commitment on in return. These are..."

Leave no grey area here. Tell her what you need and tell her what the consequences are for violating those boundaries. Don't mince words and try to say it in a way thats comfortable for her to hear. If no contact is a game breaker for you, tell her "If you contact him again or if he tries to contact you and don't immediately tell me, I will immediately begin divorce proceedings." No wiggle room there. The crux is that you have to then abide by those consequences.

Good luck!