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I completely agree with you guys, I am getting stronger everyday and to be honest I am not even sure I want her back anymore.
On the plus side, when things are good we have a strong connection and are on the same wavelength on lots of things then on the negative side theres her behaviour and affair.
I actually thought he hasn't been here for the last 3 weeks because of her change in behaviour and he had gone to work somewhere else, but actually I think he is still here but he has changed.
Before he controlled her totally and was always at home when not working not he has completely changed and is making excuses about working late EVERY night and also working at the weekend.
It looks like he is seeing someone else and although she hasnt said it thats what she is thinking as she did tell me she has had a horrible week with crying and arguing.
So point is it looks like they MAY be on their last legs, but I am not sure whether I do want to try again or not.
Maybe the answer is to do as you guys say and have my boundaries clearly laid out, then if I try again and she messes it up at least I can walk away knowing I have done all I can!

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Quote
Maybe the answer is to do as you guys say and have my boundaries clearly laid out, then if I try again and she messes it up at least I can walk away knowing I have done all I can!

Precisely! Never having to question your effort to save your M in the future.

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Wow I really want to swear right now.......r84yf987fd2183yfgregv3wfg9273fg983ry7gv28wyegd
She is yo-yo ing like absolute crazy right now...she seems to be trying to spend more time with me without starting another fight with the OM and taking greater risks he will see her with me.
Problem is my Plan A is slipping because although it's obviously positive she is seriously fed up, I am finding it hard to control my emotions and just want to say "make a f&&&&&ing decision" I DONT CARE ANYMORE!!!!
What I did say to her today and I know its not really Plan A is "I'm losing something with you and I don't care so much anymore"
Cue look of shock on face and her trying to spend more time with me today.

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Spike,
It sounds as though you are nearly at the Plan B point. If you want her to "make a decision", Plan B will certainly achieve that goal, for better or for worse. As it is, she is cake eating big time. She is still treating you like her best friend, while going home to him at night. At this point, she has successfully achieved her goal of keeping both of you dangling on her string.

Think long and hard about what you will require from her in order to accept her back (i.e. No contact, changing phone numbers, moving, etc...), and write it out into a clear plan B letter. There are examples on this site. Give it to her and go completely dark. No phone calls, no text messages, no emails, no asking her friends about her. Don't even buy groceries at the same place, if she knows where that is. For all intensive purposes, she does not exist.

This is to protect your own emotional well-being as much as it is to force her to make a decision. You may even find that a life without her drama is preferrable to you. Either way, it should hasten an end to the awful situation you are in right now.

P.S. Given that her number 1 EN is money, you NEED to protect YOUR future here. I would absolutely make a post-nup part of any reconciliation. Let her know that if she cheats again, she is out, with zero financial support.

I wish you the best of luck.

Last edited by andrew3; 03/07/08 10:33 AM.

ex-WW had 2 PAs in first 2 years. Buh-bye.
Divorce finalized: 1/28/09
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You seem to be viewing this as a "competition" between you and the OM, and believe that your WW is struggling to choose between the two of you.

You seem to think that your task here is to prove to your WW that you are the better choice, and if you can just do that she will dump OM and choose you.

You have GOT to understand that your WW is NOT trying to choose between you and OM - not for one second.

She wants what virtually all WSs want -- she wants BOTH of you.

She wants both the comfort and security of marriage (you) AND the fun and excitement of dating (OM), and has convinced herself that she is so special and entitled or (fill in the blank) that it's okay for HER to behave this way.

She is thrilled that she's apparently found a way to have both, and can't figure out why everybody doesn't live this way -- guess they're just not as smart and clever and special as she is.

She adores having TWO men fighting over her and working hard to fill her ENs, and is high on this attention all the time.

THAT is what she wants.

Don't think for a minute that poor poor WW is struggling to make a choice.

She wants BOTH of you and you can be certain that she will keep this arrangement going for as long as she possibly can - in other words, for as long as you can be persuaded to be part of it. (We are talking YEARS here - a permanent lifestyle - if you are willing.)

That's why you need Plan B, because Plan B kicks one of the three legs out from this dynamic and causes it to fall over.

I hope you understand what I am trying to tell you. Many, many BS make the same mistake and think the WS is trying to "choose".

They're not.
Mulan


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WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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Spike,

Mulan has hit this RIGHT ON!!

You have got to wrap your brain around this concept, stand back a bit, and look at her through OUR eyes.

Even when you are with her, try to look at her as the cake eating fence sitter that she is.

She is crying and arguing so much...AND THEN SHE GOES BACK!!

I sense alligator tears here.

From your posts it does seem like your feelings toward her are changing. I don't think they will change back to the way they were because you are seeing through the gorgeous (shallow) facade and actually seeing her for who and what she is....and I'll let you fill in that blank yourself.

IMHO

kirk


CORDUROY PILLOWS ARE MAKING HEADLINES!!
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Thanks for all the help.
When you are in the middle of this situation it does look like she is trying to choose.
She is definitely cake eating except that the cake isnt so yummy anymore.
To be honest I'm getting tired of her bulls&&t. I am losing a lot of my feelings for her, ****** I am even beginning to see that she looks older after all of this and not even as beautiful as I thought before.
Plan B will follow soon, I am actively look for a job in another country and then Plan B will follow naturally at that time.
IN the meantime, I am Plan A'ing for myself and I am actively pulling away from her which she hates.
Two weeks ago I went out so last weekend she tried to spend every night with me, yesterday I said I was losing my feelings for her and again she tried to spend the rest of the day with me.
Beginning to lose me now while I am still here, will probably not make her come back but may make her think about things and then Plan B will reinforce those actions that I dont really care anymore....and wheras before I was 99.9% wanting her and crying and upset now I would say I am 50/50 and I actually feel better when I dont see her!
I think because when I do see her its just drama, lies, manipulation and I'm sick of it so I'd rather not see her or speak to her...kind of like see me or talk to me when you want to not when you feel you have to!
I've been looking around at other women around me, on the TV friend etc. and just seeing a lot of people who have more morals than she ever will.
As she approaches 40 she is in meltdown about her looks and will seek out more and more attention from guys, she may not sleep with them, but it is cringeworthy to see her driving or walking outside trying to get guys to look at her to make her feel sexy.
That will only get worse every day.
I truly do think the OM has had enough of her as well, she is so difficult to live with and her son is not easy, I can just imagine after the fantasy period how much stress there is everyday in that house.
It sounds like he is either avoiding coming home or is seeing someone else.
I'm not saying that in a hopeful way just the fact I know that she is not easy to live with and unless there is a solid base of love rather than deceit there is not enough for any guy to put up with her longer than a few months.
Anyway enough for now, thanks for your help guys, you are all wonderful and have got me through some dark times, I no longer feel like crying or dying which is in no small part due to you, so thanks...still more drama to come but at least I feel like I am in conrol more now maybe not 100% but a lot more than before!

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Another interesting conversation:
She said she just called to say hi, then went on to say that the OM had disappeared again but had said he "wanted to talk to her" when he gets back. After the week she has had with him she thinks he wants to finish with her.
She then says, she thinks we are losing something and she doesnt want to because in her words "we have such a good history" (apart from you f***ing someone else that is....
Anyway translation, she thinks I AM losing something, big surprise there, she is right.....:-)
So she goes on to say, she loves me and I'm a nice guy and thinks we have a future but we BOTH need to work on some stuff, she actually said she is difficult to be with, but wanted to work on it.

So I am getting pretty good at seeing through the fog now...
translation, she knows her relationship with him is in the s&&t either tonight or coming soon and she can see that she is losing her control over me.

Oh S**t she might end up with no-one!!!

So a) we'll see what happens with him and b) we'll see what her actions say....

I'm quite amused actually.....even if he doesn't dump her tonight he obviously doesnt care anymore and she knows it....fantasy well and truly broken :-)

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Spike,
Im glad you are seeing through her cake-eating and fog-babble. Its pretty laughable that she is talking about your future together now that the OM is probably going to dump her.
I know this is a pro-marriage board, but in my honest opinion, you would do very well for yourself to ditch this superficial, manipulative, user of a woman and find yourself someone worthy of you. Beauty always fades with time, and if that is almost the sole basis for this woman, what sort of future do you expect for yourself? I, for one, could never forgive the amount of shame and humiliation she has heaped upon you. She has turned you into the other man in your own marriage!

Following the heart is great and all, but sometimes the head needs to step in with an executive decision.

Best of luck to you.


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I am beginning to think you are right..
I keep thinking about what a future would be like if she did come back. Her getting older, more concerned with her looks, probably more and more plastic surgery, more attention seeking from men to reassure herself she is beautiful, which may or may not go as far as an affair again.
I'm not sure she is really capable of loving anybody properly. She is shallow and very manipulative I know.
I am 99.9% sure I would be better without her and with someone who has more morals and more about themselves. I just wish I could forget the love I did have and what we have shared.
I did have the best time of my life with her, but if Im being honest it was more like a rollercoaster with downs and very exciting ups than a steady comforting loving relationship.
I just know that Im beginning to feel happier when I dont have to listen to her drama or lies i.e when I dont speak to her or call her than when I do see her and get sucked in. I miss her but in some ways I am happier on my own.

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Spike,

It's good to see that you are taking off those rose colored glasses and opening your eyes to reality.

If I may I would like you to reconsider telling yourself on a daily basis, the following things that you are probably already aware of:

1. There is nothing you can do to change her. Any attempts to change have to come from her through actions such as seeking therapy to address and resolve her issues.

2. Work on bettering yourself for YOU. For example, even if you weren't married, the adherence in avoidance of all love busters would help you in your other relationships.

3. Respect your body by eating well, exercising, getting enough sleep and reducing or eliminating unhealthy habits such as smoking and drinking. A healthy mind in a healthy body.

4. Avoid any close relationships with other women at this time for you are still married, emotionally invested in your WW, and time is needed for you to become emotionally healthy. You obviously can't dance while you are going through physical therapy to walk again, can you?

5. And last but not least, continue with your refusal to be her 'girlfriend' when she attempts to tell you her drama filled stories or by answering her about your whereabouts during the weekends. On the latter, respectfully inform her that she has forfeited any rights to know as a wife by leaving you and shacking up with another man. Respect yourself and she will have no choice but to respect you otherwise there will be no more communication between the two of you.

6. Consider writing the above points and reading them out loud to yourself on a daily basis and at different times during the day. Doing so can help keep you on track so that no matter what happens to your marriage, you will come out happy and strong.

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Here's something that might interest you:

Quote
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12 Unattractive, Ugly, Typical Tactics Most People Use to Prolong the Affair and Guarantee Their Own Misery. by Dr. Robert Huizenga

1) Say "I love you"

Saying "I love you," especially repeatedly, often pushes your spouse away and in essence, probably does not reflect the truth of what you really want to say. What does it mean to say, "I love you?" especially at this juncture in your relationship? Do you know? Does he/she? The words "I love you" are powerful in the beginning stages of a relationship where they match the underlying powerful feelings of attraction. "I love you then" means:

I'm attracted to you. I want to be with you. I experience good feelings when I am with you or think about you. Or, the words are powerful later in the relationship when special occasions recall the feelings that brought you together or when the stability of the relationship is temporarily threated and you express your commitment to your spouse. But, when in the midst of dealing with an affair, using the words "I love you" are inadequate and in reality, poor communication. They do not express what you really want to say. Nor does your spouse, who is allegedly "in love" with another person, know what to do with that statement. Here are ways your spouse might respond internally when he hears those words from you:

"Yeah right! What does he/she want now? He's/She's just saying that so I won't leave. Or, he's/she's just saying that so I will leave the other man/woman. He's/She's using that to manipulate me. So, I will walk away or not say anything."
“He/She loves ME? Yeah right! How can he/she love me when I do something like this. It doesn't make sense. Who would love someone who fools around on them. If he/she fooled around on me, I know I wouldn't love him/her.”
“Hey, this is cool! I got two of them wanting me. Man, it feels great to be pursued by two people. It is great to be loved by two people. (This may not be acknowledged but it might lie behind a need to continue the soap opera drama.)”
"He/She loves me? What is the world does that mean? What is he/she trying to say when he/she says that? I don't understand. Is that all he/she can say? Isn't there more he/she needs to say to me. How am I to respond? Say "I love you too?" Geezzz, it's not that simple.”
“I hate it when he/she says "I love you." That really makes him/her unattractive. He/She seems so sickingly needy when he/she says that. And, that really turns me off. When he/she says it, I think of a whining lost little boy/girl who needs reassurance. Sorry, but I'm not there. I don't want to be a father/mother.”

What are you really saying? Here are some possibilities. Do any fit?
"I love you" means I need you. My life is incomplete or insufficient without you. I have little clue of who I am outside of you and I need you to define who I am. I cannot think of having a life of my own."
"I love you" means don't leave me. I'm afraid of life on my own. I am terrified of what might happen. Tell me you love me, that you will be there for me so I don't have to think of making my own way. Calm my fears, because I'm not sure I can." "I love you" means I'm a wimp. I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to really confront you with what I'm really thinking and feeling. I don't want to take a stand and say ENOUGH. I will tolerate almost anything."
"I love you" means I'm sad. It feels sad to see the relationship and dreams crumble. It's sad to feel the distance, mistrust, pain and agony. It's sad to think of that which might never happen. It's sad to think of maybe not growing old with you.“
"I love you" means I remember with loving feelings who you were and who I was. I remember who we were. I remember the good times. I remember the way it used to be. I remember what it was like to love and be there for each other. I miss that. I love those memories and maybe, that's all they are.

2) Criticize, complain, whine, nag.

This should be fairly obvious. Criticizing, complaining, whining and nagging are not attractive! Who wants to be around such a person? When I criticize or complain I have a hard time being around myself.

This behavior is usually an attempt to deal with the internal tension you feel. You don't know where to go with the tension, so it seeps out around the edges. Something your spouse says or does, and it doesn't have to be major, will trigger the tension and you spit out the negativity. You may be unaware that it is happening, since it probably is a fairly long standing habit. And, of course, your spouse will respond in his/her typical fashion, probably by moving away or countering you with his/her negativity. Ever feel like you hit a brick wall, time and time again? It hurts, doesn't it. And, you go nowhere.

What would happen if you stopped using criticism, complaining or whining? What could you do instead? What does your criticizing, complaining and nagging supposedly get for you? Give it some thought. (Here's what you might find: You are trying to get something, or you want something to happen or you have some expectation and it's not there. Can you find
a different way to let this person know what you want, what you need or how you would like your life to be, without resorting to something that is absolutely guaranteed to give you the opposite of what you truly desire?)

3) Say "I've changed".

In an attempt to persuade a spouse to stop an affair or restore a relationship you may use the ploy, "But, I've changed. I'm a different person." And your behavior may truly be different " most of the time. You try to accommodate in ways you haven't tried before or you alter your behavior to fit your perception of what he/she wants you to do. Here are some problems with this strategy:

"Is it true? Have you really changed or are you in a reactive mode? You are reacting to a painful situation by trying on different behaviors. There is nothing wrong with this. Actually you are to be commended. It probably takes a great deal of energy and conscious thought to alter, especially in a drastic manner, some of your habits.
" If you continue the new behaviors they may gradually sink in and truly become a part of you. However, these changes usually lack staying power because they are born out of reactivity.
" You will return to the old patterns, especially when the heat is off. And, your spouse intuitively knows this. He/she thinks, 'this will never last" and is highly suspicious.
" Your change will probably be viewed by your spouse as an attempt to manipulate. He/she will perceive your change as a strategy on your part to get him/her to change. If your spouse felt "cornered" before, the feelings will be greater now. Your spouse will most likely resent these changes, even though these very behaviors is what he/she has been asking for for all the previous years. More distance will emerge.
" You will lose credibility. Your spouse will not believe you or will not know what to believe about you. In 80% of the affairs, my experience and analysis tells me that confusion reigns. Your spouse is very confused about what he/she wants. By faking or trying on changed behaviors, you are only adding to the confusion. The message you are sending is NOT CLEAR.
" You will lose respect. Bottom line: people don't want other people to try to please or placate them. They just don't respect that kind of strategy. There is no backbone. There is no core self from which you express yourself and take a firm stand. That is not very attractive.

Here's a common response I encounter: If you can change so easily now, why didn't you change when I wanted you to change back then? It's too late now. Some sadness or resentment may emerge as he/she encounters the new behavior, thinking about what could have been, but is no longer seen as possible.

4) Argue, Reason, Plead

You may believe that the more persistent you are in trying to get your spouse to "understand," the better off you may be. Not always true. Usually, the harder you try to get your point across, the deeper the wedge in the relationship.

An affair is not based on logic. One's quest to "find him/herself" through an affair has little to do with reason. The allure of the OP (other person), whatever that allure might be, has little respect for reason, logic and thinking and talking something through together. So you may attempt to reason with your partner about seeing the OP, where your partner goes, how he/she spends time, spending more time with the children, how to handle finances and pay the bills and other issues related to your life together or you lack of life together. The two of you swirl. It's as if you have been there, done that countless times before. You can predict what he/she will say, can predict your response to his/her response can, in turn, predict how he/she will respond to your response of his/her response. Sound familiar? You bang into a communication wall filled with the same old nasty feelings and thoughts you've encountered before. And you end in the same fashion, He/she walks away (which gives an "excuse" to run to the arms of someone else. Arguing, reasoning and pleading keeps the focal point on each other. It keeps the relationship bound together (we call it enmeshment) in a powerfully negative and destructive way. You merely continue to rehash the old stuff with the same fruitless outcome.

5) Get friends and family involved.

It is not uncommon to look for an ally. But, more than an ally, you may look for someone who will be your eyes and ears and perhaps mouthpiece. You may seek out an informant. You quiz others about what your spouse is saying and doing. You pump for information. You may look for signs of hope and hang intently on every word of your ally. Or, you might enlist a friend or family member to be your mouthpiece. You encourage them to talk to your spouse and hammer some 'sense" into this wayward creature. You give them all the information they need to be persuasive.

Unfortunately, many people seem to get off on this. There is an element of drama, suspense and mystery that hooks people into being what they think is helpful. They may be all too willing to join you in your drama. Getting friends and family involved only worsens your situation. Three people emotionally involved and invested in a relationship form a triangle. Ever watch soap operas? A soap opera is inherently two people talking about a third or two aligned and plotting against the third. There is a lot of juice stirred up but the relationships never reach the point of health (unless the triangle is broken). With such a triangle, you only perpetuate a bad situation. What is an affair? Basically, it's a triangle: two aligned against the outsider. Adding more triangles to the mix only increases the possibility for a more powerful explosion.

To break free from the affair, it is crucial that you and your spouse face one another and begin stating your own positions, your needs, your desires, your beliefs, the feelings you have about yourself, not the other person and each begin unraveling the story of your respective lives.

6) Act helpless, depressed.

Talk about unattractive. It takes a tremendous amount of energy for someone to be in relationship with a person who consistently acts helpless and depressed. People, over time, weary of being around such a person. Do you like being around a depressed person?

Here's the kicker though: Acting helpless and depressed can get mileage. Some people seek out depressing people because it gives them good feelings to take care of someone, or they get a feeling of being a little superior. In the meantime the depressed and helpless person gets a lot of attention and care.

The helpless or poor me syndrome is also a tool to control the other person. After all, you don't want to get too upset with a depressed person. They can't handle that, right? Or, worst case scenario, might they harm themselves, because they are so fragile? At some point the caretaker begins to pull away from the relationship and resolves not to be a part of that cycle. An affair might be the unconscious strategy (albeit, a not very bright strategy) to cope with one's inability to confront the depressed person with his/her true self. Acting depressed or helpless in the aftermath of an affair may be a longstanding pattern, only intensified at this point, in your relationship with your partner. It no longer works effectively, but you might turn up the volume a little louder, acting a more helpless and depressed, to make your point and get him/her back.

Question: If it does work and your partner comes back, is that the kind of relationship you want? Do you relish the idea of playing the victim/helpless role the rest of your life to control and maintain a relationship? Probably not. At least, I wouldn't want that for you. So you say you really are depressed? OK, fair enough. Some people do suffer from the clinical definition of depression as defined in the medical community. If you do, don't wait one more minute. Call your family doctor and ask for a referral to get some help. Assume responsibility for your illness.

Discover who you really are beneath the depression so you have a true self to offer to your spouse, or someone else. Doesn't that sound much better? I would think your partner would think so.

7) Give up opposite sex relationships.

If your partner is involved in an affair, you most likely have the tendency to shun people of the opposite sex. There are a number of reasons for this. First, you probably do not feel very attractive or desirable. As I've noted in other writings, being on the receiving end of an affair dumps self-esteem down the toilet. Even if you had an interest in pursuing a relationship, this would get in the way.

An interesting phenomenon I observe very frequently is that the spouse having the affair sends a subtle or not so subtle message that only he/she is allowed to have an extramarital relationship. It is his/her domain. If the offended partner begins a relationship with a person of the opposite sex the person having the affair may become jealous and disturbed, sometimes extremely so. Make sense? No, but then again, not much about affairs makes sense.

You may hold back from having an opposite sex relationship because you believe it will only give permission to your partner to continue the affair and provide further ammunition for him/her to truly leave. This does occur, but only in particular kinds of affairs and, I believe, only in a minority of situations. It will NOT be a major factor in his/her decision to truly end the marriage.

Holding back from developing an opposite sex relationship typically indicates you are doggedly determined to focus on what your partner and what he/she is doing or not doing. You are riveted on this painful elusive relationship. It occupies your every moment and breath. To think of having a life of your own seems terribly foreign. When I talk about having a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, I'm NOT talking about dating or sleeping around. Don't jump off the bridge. But, there is such a thing as a healthy relationship with those of different gender. Actually, it's fairly important to have those relationships without sexualizing them, or at least trusting yourself and the other person well enough to have a friendship that energizes.

You can learn a great deal. Your life will be enriched. You will have a life. And, it will be important to have this life in the future, with or without your partner present.

8 ) Get reassurance from your children.

Please don't intentionally involve your children. Here's what I mean.
"Don't share information with them about their other parent.
"Don't try to pry information from them about your spouse.
"Don't ask (in any way) for them to agree with you or side with you or comfort you.
"Don't talk about your spouse to them in any way shape or manner.

You can say directly: I'm having a difficult time right now, but I'm doing everything to take care of it and this too shall pass. I will always be here for you. Why? This is a difficult time emotionally for your children. They know what is going on, even if they don't know the details. They need a PARENT(S). Don't you become the child.

Remember my talk about triangles? What we have with your children is the potential for more triangles. Someone talking to someone about someone else only perpetuates your pain, creates pain for them, and lowers the possibility of resolving effectively your relationship with your spouse. As long as you are mired in triangles, you offer the opportunity for your spouse to perceive you as undesirable and therefore he/she continues the affair. As well you remain locked in your pain and merely lengthen the time and intensity of your misery. Go to other people (adults) for reassurance, comfort, guidance and a listening ear.

The ideal way to beat a triangle, you know, is to confront your spouse with your thoughts, your needs, set boundaries, declare yourself, take a stand and in essence, look at him/her eyeball-to-eyeball and say, I won't live like this. I'm making some shifts and changes. "I will make it, either with or without you. But, I guarantee you, I will make it".

9) Use the Bible or Dr Laura.

It is a natural impulse to want to beat your wandering spouse over the head, not literally, of course. Well, maybe" (Just kidding. Don't do it!) But, on a number of occasions I've run across those who throw Bible verses, selected passages from books or talk show hosts comments about the immorality and path of perdition he/she is following by engaging in an affair.

Now, granted, engaging in an affair is sin because it certainly does miss the mark in terms of having an authentic and truth-filled relationship and it certainly has dire consequences in which the other does walk down a difficult path. However, using this as a weapon to stop the affair brings dubious results at best. Think about it. Would you really want him/her to come back to the relationship because of coercion? What would that be like? He/she would be there because of moral compunction, not because they really wanted to be with you. Could you live in an relationship of emotional investment where someone was forced to be with you " out of guilt or trying to abide by some law? Don't you really want to be wanted? Have you ever heard the phrase, that which you resist, persists? This concept implies that the more you try to avoid something or work hard to change something, the more power you give it and the possibility for true change diminishes.

Beating him/her over the head with moral persuasion most likely will increase his/her resolve, if not openly at least internally, to oppose you. Poor strategy! Again, we return to a common theme: gathering moral ammunition and blasting away at the other person means you are focusing your energy on him/her. Your best bet is to turn that finger around and be kind, gentle, encouraging, supportive, directive, and caring to your self. Get your emotions and thinking under control. Plan your strategy for your survival, growth and moving ahead " without without him/her.

One more thing: Do you really want to be known as a morally superior person? Not most of us do. I'm not talking about becoming a morally inferior person, i.e. lowering your standards, by any means. I'm suggesting, don't go into the arena of morality or take a morally righteous position. It's booby trapped. You prolong your misery. You lessen hope for a reconciled marriage or workable future relationship with your spouse.

10) Suggest counseling.

OK, what's the deal. A therapist who is recommending that you NOT pursue counseling with your spouse? Yes, exactly. Believe me, I've seen hundreds of couples and counseling when an affair is involved, seldom, and I mean really seldom works. In most communities, getting counseling is the thing to do when there are marital problems. Family, friends, clergy and others say, "Have you gotten counseling?" Many spouses agree to attend. It usually lasts for a few sessions, if that. He/she often enters counseling guardedly and with little intent to self disclose. He/she usually in some fashion sabotages counseling. It doesn't work. Here's the kicker: the person is then able to say, "Well, we got counseling, and it just didn't work out!" Counseling becomes a rationalization to pull further away. Suggesting counseling, because it is socially sanctioned by your community, is perceived by your spouse as coercion. Again, persuasion or coercion usually gets the results you don't intend and shifts the focus away from where it needs to be " your self care and your ability to take a firm, non-reactive stand and move ahead with your life, with our without him/her.

So you want to get your spouse into counseling? Here's your strategy: Say, "I want you to know that I'm getting counseling. There are some changes I want to make for my self. You are basically right, our relationship hasn't been that cool for me either. I want to learn why I attract the kind of people I do. I want to prepare for my future. I'm going to make it!" Depending on the kind of affair that confronts you, this is your best chance for the two of you to resolve the relationship, with counseling being a helpful tool.

11) Tell him/her we need to work on the relationship.

This usually means you want to go back to the way the marriage used to be. You remember the good times and your intent is to recapture them. Or you believe that the two of you, focusing on each other with more purpose, can change the flow of the relationship. To do that, you believe you need to try. This often means spending more time together, dating, being more attentive to each other, reading self help books together, buying each other gifts and in general, revisiting the courting stage of the relationship. This usually is very uncomfortable. One is the pursuer and the other hedges, forgets or distances. There are constant thoughts of the OP (other person) by both parties. The comparison game is played internally, but never talked about openly. The stress and strain oozes beneath the surface. The spouse involved with the other person may concede to trying, since it serves basically the same purpose as counseling. He/she can at some point say, 'see, we tried and it just didn't work." It may ease the guilt or give internal permission to pursue with more vigor the other person.

Trying does not get at the truth. Trying is a band aid that fails to alter the underlying dynamics of the marriage or the individuals. Trying to change the relationship is again, other focused, and this only leads to a deeper sense of being stuck. Don't work on the relationship. Here's my mantra again: Work on you. No, you don't even have to work on you. Be you! If you don't know who you are, find out and then be you. It really is ok. And, it really isn't that difficult. At least it's much easier than trying to change another person or a relationship.

One more thing. When you are you and stop trying to change someone or something else, that someone or something else of investment cannot not change. Think about it!

12) Let yourself go to pot.

It is very easy when confronted with a trauma that rocks us to our soul to go back to that which is ugly, negative and ultimately self-defeating. We revert to the negative thoughts about ourself. We revert to those old negative feelings that rip at our emotions and sometimes tear at our body. We revert to those old ways of behaving that get us where we don't want to go. We go back to what I call our "familiar position."

Allowing yourself to go to pot (and I know some who literally go there or find some other substance to ingest that numbs) takes a tremendous amount of energy. It takes more than facing head on what you need to face. You continue on a downward spiral whereby each negative thought, word and action builds on the other and accumulates. A cloud of negativity hinders you from taking the action you need to take to see your way through. You become stuck. Of course, you understand, that when you go down that road, you become exceedingly unattractive. You are exceedingly unattractive. This only reinforces the negative self thoughts swirling in your mind. To think of yourself as desirable seems a long ways off. When in your "familiar position" you will resort to typical behaviors you use to get what you think you want. basically, you will either withdraw or attack. Neither will serve you well.

OK, so what do you do? Well, it is impossible to totally avoid your negative feelings and thoughts, so don't try. It is also impossible to force yourself onto a different path. (That might last for a while, but the negativity will catch up to you). There are a couple powerful strategies. First, just notice when you go where you typically go. Don't judge. Just notice. Allow the negativity to be there for a while. Observe it. Learn from it. Be aware of how you are trying to protect yourself or how you actually are trying to get what is important for you. Be gracious to yourself. Accept the fact that you are sometimes where you don't want to be. Be kind to yourself. Look beneath. Look deeper. Look within. It will be well worth it. And, others will notice. They will see the change, and it will be attractive.
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FWIW, the OW in my sitch did at least 10 of the 12 and it led to the end of the affair.

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What now....

Thanks for all your support so far, I have been quiet for a while seeing how things plan out and have now come to an impasse I think.

Firslty her behaviour:

We had our 3 year anniversary and on that day and since then I haven't seen her more maybe 2-3 times a week so quite a lot compared to some but she has been a lot more genuine and affectionate. I'm not going to bore you but her actions are doing more than her words and I can see that she is maybe warming to me again.

As for me:

I am stronger, more independent and I think we can both see that we could easily grow apart right now and she has said she doesn't want that.

Her:

She has got to a decision point as well. Other non related problems son has to start school here so big decision to stay here and she has a lack of money so has to think about going back to work.

I have also got to make decisions. I feel now that Plan A has run its course.

She said to me yesterday the OM is [censored], he's a child, she loves me and wants to be with me. So I asked her why are you there then...she said because he is still trying...She wants me as I was when I met her.

I can understand this, I have gone down in the world. Lost my career, hanging around for her etc etc

So Plan A has run its course, I think I have to cut my losses in Japan and return to the UK and restart my career not only for me but because I realise I stand no chance of getting her back (if I want that) hanging around here, not going to happen unless he does something major like cheat on her...

The questions I have and problems are I guess:

- Is a total PLan B the best option. She is warming to me, seems borderline with him now genuinely. If I was 7000 miles away anyway, with my career restarted would Plan B because of distance but with some communication to let her know I am working on myself be better?
Thats my feeling that when I am not here she will miss half of her cake anyway, me doing good for myself will encourage her to leave him. What do you guys think? I think a total Plan B would just finish us completely with the distance. I think I need to keep some communication to show her how good I am doing and tempt her back to me?

- I feel its pretty much the only thing I can do now because of money is to go back. But is it the right thing now with us?
I feel like she wont leave while things are the same if I stay here, I think I need to go and get my career back and my pride back in the UK for us to stand any chance.

I guess Im just worried that being in the UK will make things worse, because we do see each other 2-3 times a week albeit for a short time and in the last 2-3 weeks she has been a lot more loving towards me.

BUT nothing is really changing, she is more affectionate but is still there with him...

If working in the UK is the best thing, is a total Plan B the answer or is my idea that the distance is enough anyway with some communication to let her know how I am doing better?

Basically I know without half her cake things here will not be too happy for her, I know 100% she does think he is [censored], a child, doesnt make her happy very much and lots of arguing, so with no more cake, back to work and a growing child, the pressure should work wonders I think....

Anyway enough rambling on, need a bit of help right now as its decision time again and big decision this time!

Thanks

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A dark Plan B. A good Plan B letter is all the communication she needs.


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Hey Spike,

Good to see your post.

You have to get back to the UK, correct?

Then SET A DATE to go.

Let her know when you are leaving.

She will have to fish or cut bait.

She can cake eat and fence sit because she does not have to make a decision.

If the train leaves the station on the date you set and she is not on it, then there is your answer.

The heck with the Plan B! Plan B over 7,000 miles?? That is like plan G (gone).

Remember, you've got the hammer. You are on the high road and the only person in this scenario deserving respect. So when you say ""I think I need to keep some communication to show her how good I am doing and tempt her back to me?"" it makes me crazy!!

TEMPT her back to you?? How much self esteem have you lost? We thought you were growing a pair!

""BUT nothing is really changing, she is more affectionate but is still there with him...""

AMEN BROTHER!! AND WHASUPWIDAT? I totally do not understand the dynamic going on here.

I think you should leave and NOT tell her. cool (I hate that icon)

IMHO.

kirk





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Thats the problem, I dont get it either.
I am growing a pair and much more independent, feeling better in myself, putting myself first etc etc.

Firstly, I have slipped down in myself, I'm basically not the same guy she met, I get that so the only way I can work on myself properly and also get myself back not just for her but myself is to restart my career in the UK.

But I dont get the dyamic either, she is being more affectionate, her actions not just her words, she is tired of him, I know that from third parties but still won't leave. I dont get it either, thats why Im not sure the best thing to do....

If I stay, I'm broke, stressed and not being true to myself but I can see her 2-3 times a week but I'm then not being the guy she met or wants. So seems to be little chance I can get her back staying put.

But if I go and get myself back, career etc. its a long way, maybe she will come to me, maybe she wont...I honestly dont know the best thing to do...

If i stay I dont think she will leave him but if I go then that might be it as well....

Seriously confused,

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Spike,

You gotta go!!

With or without her, you gotta go.

Staying is not working for you on SO many different levels.

Plus when you confirm the date you are leaving that big ball will be in her court.

And how can she NOT choose you? You are still her HUSBAND are you not?

""But if I go and get myself back, career etc. its a long way, maybe she will come to me, maybe she wont...I honestly dont know the best thing to do..""

You must go back for YOURSELF. The best thing to do FOR YOU is to go back. Take her out of the equation for a minute. YOU have to do it for YOU.

SHE must do what she must do. You cannot make her or tempt her or threaten her. LET HER DECIDE!

YOU must move on and recover yourself, recover your self-respect, and your happiness in YOU.

Sting says "If you love someone, set them free" or something like that. Maybe he knows what he is talking about here.

STAY STRONG!

kirk


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You are right,
I know that going now is the right thing to do.
Maybe she will come with me but I dont think she will.
I have to work on myself first if I am going to get her back, and I cannot properly work on myself here.
I need to get my career restarted and get my pride in myself back to stand any chance of getting her back.
Right now I know I stand zero chance here continuing with Plan A short of some miracle happening....
My only chance is to work on myself and get my pride and status back...
Do you think a dark Plan B really is best though, isn't it dark enough being far away?
I feel that if I am dark that will be it definitely finished, if I am far away and she can see how good I am doing, ie Plan B with a twist it may pry her away from him.
What do you think?

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Spike,

""Maybe she will come with me but I dont think she will.""

If she doesn't then she is an idiot.

If she doesn't then where is her meal ticket? You going to send her $$$??

I think not!

If she doesn't she is going to be stuck with that loser 24/7.

""isn't it dark enough being far away?""

Agreed, specially if you don't accept collect calls.

I really don't think you need to worry about that. Announce the date of your departure and watch her squirm!

IMHO

kirk


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