Bryan,

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with what you said. I DO agree with the fact that BH is hurt - and that he was looking for her to say that she doesn't love xOM, and she does love H.....

However,

There is the issue of radical honesty. I can't (at least with good conscience) advise her to say something she doesn't feel, just to try to get her H back. If she FEELS it, then that's one thing. But if she's unsure of her feelings about xOM, then I think it's OK to say that.

Perhaps following it up with 'but I know that xOM and I were not really in love - we were infatuated and thought it was love. I KNOW I love you, and I want to work on our M' might help.

One thing, brooke, that I would advise is telling your H that you will be honest about everything. How you are feeling, what you did....whatever he wants to know. Betrayal hurts because it is a series of lies. One way to begin recovering from hurt is to be honest - with yourself and others.

Hang in there. Remember what you felt like when you found out that your H had an affair? Rage, anger, confusion, hurt.....like someone had just sucker punched you, and taken everything that you thought was sacred and precious, and threw it in the trash. Infidelity is not a 'pretty' or 'easy' thing. It hurts EVERYONE involved.

Give things some time. He may return, or he may not. But you did the right thing, and you can be proud of that. If you hadn't, then your marriage would certainly have been doomed. At least now, you've given it a fighting chance.

good luck

Mel,

I don't care for your defense of not calling a counselor and/or the Harley's. In fact, ALL the Dr. Harley, Jen, Steve know about counseling and people is NOT in their books, nor is it possible for it to be put into books.

You don't know what Dr. Harley may or may not have recommended to her before her telling her H the truth. I am sure the truth would have been advocated but the timing, the method, the turn of a phrase to ease the pain of the BS and yes the WS might have been better.

I find it interesting that because you don't seem to care for K's advice to call the Harley's you have taken "well if it isn't in his book he wouldn't have said it approach." Experience counts, nuances count, reading people counts, and being good at this stuff requires all of the above plus knowledge. The Harley's have it, the posters here don't and I include myself in this.

One of the real tipoff's to me about someone that doesn't understand what Harley has written is that they think it is one size fits all. The patterns are very similar thus the success of MB, but the nuances, the individual tweeks, and such should be left to Pro's.

If the sum total of all of Dr. Harley, Jenn, and Steve could be put in a book and used as is, they wouldn't be needed would they?

No one is saying that Brooke shouldn't have told her H of her affair. But, there are many ways to do it and I do think a variety of ways should have been considered.

It is done now. The WS has been repudiated and I am sure it brings a smile to some of the readers and posters faces. It makes them feel JUSTICE was done. But the purpose of this site is not to exact JUSTICE it is to see if marriages can be saved, rebuilt, and thrive after some of the most awful betrayals. I don't sense that spirit right now.

That girl needs all of the help she can obtain, and talking to the Harley's would be a great first step. I think K is right, dead right on that point.

Folks, refocus here. If her H came would you help him? I think so, although he has betrayed her. Would you help her, I am not so sure. But she does need help.

Please think about this. This thread and other is not about territory, it is about someone seeking help and trying to do the right thing.

God Bless,

JL

Brooke,

Do not let yourself get rattled. You told the truth and it was the right thing to do.

As Mel posted Dr. Harley's quote on confessing, I think it is pretty clear that Dr. Harley in no way feels it necessary to come clean only with a professional. And I agree with Mel, if Dr. H thought it was dangerous for people who lived through infidelity to help others going through it, he never would have set up these forums.

You came here for help, and many here have offered you what they feel is helpful. With the support you received, you were able to finally confess a wrong to your husband. I don't know what JB is so upset about. I've been through discovering an affair myself. Your BS really wasn't any more irrational than the rest of us BS's those first few days after discovery. What you saw is pretty typical.

Now, what you need to do from here is where you need to focus. I posted earlier about a no contact letter and elminating all the ways OM can contact you (phones, emails, etc.)

Have you put some thought into that?

Realize that you cannot control your husband. Your job at this point is to continue to do the right thing. He will either choose that this marriage is worth working on, or he won't. That choice is up to him. Do the right things anyway.

melody
thank you.. what book are you quoting from ??...about how dr harley tells a spouse how to reveal an affair
and i'd love to private message you..how is that done??
thanks
jerseyboy

And I think you are dead wrong. A BS should NOT have to endure one additional day of betrayal so that the WS can get some advice. I think Mel hit the nail on the head.

JL, let me be clear, I am NOT criticising K for telling her to call the Harleys and believe she SHOULD call them. She would get the best BENEFIT from doing so. I do not disagree with that. That being said, one does not have to call to get guidance in order to recover.

What I DO object to is his assertion that she has been given BAD or MISLEADING ADVICE on this forum. She most certainly HAS NOT. If you feel another way should have been explored, there was nothing stopping you from telling her that. The advice she was given is advice that is to be found in Dr. Harleys writings. [quote above] It is in perfect compliance with what we have learned here and what we know works.

While we don't know what Dr. Harley would have said if she called for counseling, we DO KNOW that Dr.H has NEVER EVER said that counselng is a REQUIREMENT to expose. Nor is there anything different about this case to make us believe this is not the garden variety case. We gave TRIED AND TRUE Marriage Builders advice, based on the principles we have learned here.

The result has been that the affair is now EXPOSED, so now there is some HOPE for the marriage. That is NOT A BAD THING. Alot of folks here spent time and effort giving Brooke SOUND ADVICE. And while the result has been explosive [and isn't it always?] it has been PRODUCTIVE.

I very much resent K's assertion that she has been given BAD ADVICE here, when she has been given TRIED AND TRUE Marriage Builders advice that led her to DO THE RIGHT THING. He was out of line to criticize fellow members for giving MB advice on Marriage Builders, IMO.

jb, here is the link to the entire article: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

I'd just like to say something from the perspective of both a WS and a BS....

I confessed my A - much in the way that Brooke did. I made that choice. I confessed in the only words that I knew how.

"I had an affair"

After those 4 words, it didn't matter what I said. What mattered is what he heard. I said "I don't love xOM" - he heard "you LOVED xOM". I said "I love you and want this to work" - he heard "you BETRAYED me and expect me to stay?"

In my VERY humble opinion, it doesn't matter how you sugar coat it. An affair is an affair. And no words will ease, cure, or take away the agony of betrayal.

What's done is done. And here we are. There is no avoiding the 'fallout' of the A's. The best we can hope for in this situation is that once the rage dies down, that both brooke and her H are able to empathize with each other enough to decide that they both made horrible decisions, and that they need to work on themselves. And perhaps, work on their M.

Brooke, I'm sorry, but this is just something you have to go through. It's miserable, it's painful, it's devastating. To face IN PERSON the damage that the affair has caused. But it's sobering. And it will help you to learn from your experience, and be a better person.

Hang in there. No matter what you WILL be OK.

Very well said, L.I.T.

I would add that the suggestion to expose affairs to the spouse *IS* "professional" advice; it comes right from the mouth of DR. WILLARD HARLEY, a professional. There is absolutely nothing different about this situation that would lead me to believe that is not good advice.

mama bear
here is what i am upset about..
a professional could have foreseen all the possible reactions and repurcussions.. and prepared Brooke for them..

once she revealed.... she lost control .. her H fought OM..
her H had dinner with her and his parents....her H lied to her and got a confront with OM and her.. anyway..even tho she did not want this...
all of these things she was unprepared for...
her H is an alpha male, lawyer with a black belt..he is aggressive..so is OM..
why do you think her H GOT a black belt ??? BECAUSE he intends to USE it
HELLO...
jb

MEDC,

Aren't you the one that always defends himself with "I have a right to state what I think is right?" Well grow up and take your own advice.

No one advocated Brooke not telling her H. But, this is not a heart attack or a bullet to the brain, taking a day to do it best is NOT going to hurt the BS and my help them.

Mel,

K did not say it was BAD advice. He stated
He is suggesting to recover, she needs a plan, and frankly she has been offered support, some condemnation, and a few recommendations. Do you claim that all advice given on this board is good? I have seen you jump on more than a few posters whose advice you felt was not consistent with the Harley's approach.

My point the advice to seek counseling from Pro's to address recovery is in fact good advice. I think your reaction to his comment Is a little strong given that everyone thinks they give good advice with the best of intentions. Yet, as you have pointed out to more than a few posters, you don't think they did in fact give the best advice. My point, advice is in the eye of the beholder, and all K stated was to his eye some of the advice was not as effective as it could be, so go to the Pro's.

I don't see a problem with this and I am surprised you do.
Brooke is a mess. Her H is a mess. Their marriage is a mess. They have now had two affairs in this marriage obviously the last one has not been dealt with, but the first one apparently wasn't dealt with very well as well.

They do need the pro's IF both are willing to rebuild. Time will tell on that.

God Bless,

JL

I doubt that, unless you know of a professional PSYCHIC. Brooke had excellent insight into what to expect and knows her life better than anyone. Here is what she said:


EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.


EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.


She knew what would happen and had perfect insight. Professionals don't have psychic or magic powers, jb, and I doubt any of them could have foretold the outcome even close to what Brooke did. She knew exactly what was going happen and knew it was going to be ugly.

Exposures are ugly, jb. That is the RULE rather than the exception. Adultery is a horrible, painful crime that is as traumatic as the death of a child or a rape. There is no way to gloss that over. There is no way to prevent the ugliness and horror. There is no magic "professional" that can see into the future and make the unpleasantness go away.

Oh no, of course not, but I do not think K meant it at all in the way you think. He said: "you've been given a lot of adivce that isn't going to help you and your husband recover your marriage." He is clearly referring to the current situation, not about a "plan" for the future. If radical honesty, especially about an affair, is not going to help her recover her marriage, then I have no idea what would. Radical honesty is always the first step. So he needs to clarify exactly what he means, IMO.

So far, she has only been given advice about EXPOSURE. His implication is that she can't get good advice on this forum, which is crap. Offensive crap. Very offensive to many of us who have great marriages from using this forum with the help of many great veterans here. Just as the Harleys INTENDED.

I disagree with all of this. First of all, the average Joe professional does not foresee all the possible reactions and repurcussions. They are not specialized enough in RECOVERING from infidelity. Many of them never recovered their own marriages from infidelity. I think she probably got a better view of the possibilities from the many viewpoints here from those who've gone through the discovery of an affair.

I would say that if I pooled 30 people who've gone through discovery and asked what happened on d-day, they would have a much more thorough list of reactions and responses than the average Jo counselor. Much!




Why does that seem out of the ordinary???

Who wouldn't???




Seems like a pretty typical response, which could have EASILY happened on the way home from a professional's office.





You know, exposure is incredibly painful. There really is no easy way around it.

Brooke received advice about going and about not going. Then she made her decision.

Much advice I received from my counselor's was not nearly as good as I got from this board, quite frankly. And if I had followed my first counselor's advice (who, of course, specialized in infidelity, yet never recovered his own marriage), my husband would still be cake-eating.







You do realize that this could have just as easily happened had the visisted a professional.

They would have gone to the office, confessed in the "controlled" setting. But then they go home to the REAL WORLD. And both their heads start spinning. And if you think he wouldn't have gone nuts just because a few hours earlier he got told the worst news of his life by his wife in front of a complete stranger, you are kidding youself.

His anger would come. And it would be nearly uncontrollable...just like almost every BS.




I don't think she was unprepared. She was told repeatedly to BE PREPARED for his anger, his wrath, his outbursts. Him confronting OM was even discussed. She did not go into this blind.

I just don't see anything unusual about any of this, except that her BS had the "privilege" of being told instead of learning about it some other horrid way (like most of us).




Well, first of all, people don't get a black belt to "use it". There is A LOT more to martial arts training than fighting and any DECENT training in the martial arts deals with the developing the character of the person--self-control, self-discipline, dedication, humbleness, manners, self-improvement.

My husband is a 3rd degree in aikido, my 17yos is a soon-to-be 2nd degree in Pangi-noon karate and kobodo (weapons) and a brown belt in aikido, my 13yod is a black belt in Pangi-noon karate and soon to be in kobodo. My 11yos is a brown belt, 9yos a green belt, and 7yos an orange belt. And I study Tai Chi and self-defense.

So, I am not ignorant to the martial arts. My 17yos traveled with a USA team for competition (and received the highest kata score if I may take a moment to brag <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

A good majority of people with a black belt, sadly, didn't do much to accomplish it. It is often flaunted but there isn't much to back it up. In the USA they are practically handed out. So just because someone has a black belt, doesn't necessarily mean the can actually fight.

With that being overly said (sorry), I disagree with your assessment that unpredictable things happened. Everyone, including Brooke, knew the dangers of confessing. She made a KNOWLEDGEABLE choice. What exactly do you think a professional would tell her.

I would like to hear - with specifics - how this would have been prevented. And what your GUARANTEE would be.

TIME OUT!!!!

Can everyone PLEASE stop bickering about who gave the best advice?
It really isn't doing Brooke (remember her?) any good, and frankly is undermining the credibility of the "Vets" she's been told to trust with the most difficult situation she's ever had in her life.
If everyone involved in this discussion were standing in the same room. I imagine Brooke might quietlt sneak out a back door never to return... Really. It's a little disheartening.
Lets not forget who this thread is supposed to be about, put our ego's in check and try to get back to pulling in the same direction.
Though there may be merit to this discussion in general, a SEPERATE thread to discuss opinions and interperetations of the MB principles might be in order.

Brooke, hang in there. Your fortitude is inspirational. I sure wish my wife had the guts you've shown. I don't respect your actions (A), but I'm proud of the way you are approaching this next stage of your life. Hopefully some day you can look back and be proud of how you handled this.
Peace!

Please calm yourself down, trytoohard. A civil discussion about the principles used in this situation is a GOOD THING, not a BAD thing. Some feel that wrong practices were recommended here and it helps everyone concerned to discuss each side of the issue. That is how people learn.

brooke..
all the best.. i appologize to you
and to melody and the moderators..in Brooke's best interest i will be silent
jb

for what it's worth and because I personally did not want to threadjack Brooke's thread, I just started a new thread How quickly to confess with my personal experience and current thoughts. anyone is welcome to comment there. of course i'm not saying you can't continue discussing it here too, but now there is an option for those that, like me, want to allow this thread to be about Brooke and where she is right now.