Wait a minute... you're 4 years into getting your PhD, working to recover your M with a very volatile man, and you're willing to move closer to his mommy?

TT something does not sound right in all of this. I think you've taken all the precautions you needed to, but I'm concerned about your state of mind in 3-5 years from now if you do this. You will you resent him for taking away what you worked for so hard? For taking you away from your family?

Why would you even consider this when you have no commitment from him to work on your M, and even more important no admission that he does have issues of his own that need to be worked out.

This scares me a little TT. This plays right into his game of manipulation. Be sure this is what you really want.

The deal was I'd move with him if he committed to the M and to recovery. There's no way in god's green earth I'd move in the state things are now. IF he wants to make a go at recovering this-- I'm game.

Truthfully, he hasn't mentioned much about it. I think he realizes that with maybe a year left until I get my PhD, leaving right this second is sort of silly. I would really be hurting my career, for the rest of my life, by doing so. Plus, the aforementioned housing market problem... really it would be sort of silly to leave now. But if it helps with recovery, yeah, I'm game. But-- I'm not dropping my career and everything to move and have this continue in a new location. This takes some level of committment from him also.

I also want to move away from the city we are in too. Maybe not necessarily to the city he has his heart set on, but I do want to move. In fact, I'm not that excited about the city he wants to move to. I kinda don't WANT to move there. I also told him that if he lets me finish my PhD here, that in 1.5 years, or whenever I'm done (should be about 1.5 years), I will move wherever he wants... even if that is Moskow (ha!). Not a peep from me about it. I'll just pick up and go. And that I'm serious about. He picks, I go. I can find a job just about anywhere once I'm done with my PhD, in any major metropolitan area (which is where he wants to go anyways, he wouldn't go to BFE).

This is just compensation for RECOVERY. Not just compensation that he just takes and continues on his merry way this way.

I haven't told him all of this just because right now (the "conditions), I've put it on the table as an option, but he hasn't taken the bait. So we haven't discussed the "parameters" of it.

And we'd be closer to his family if we moved where he wanted to, but still a good car ride away-- several hours. So, its not like we'd be seeing them every weekend.

SMB-- you out there?

TT

Ok, I feel better now. It sounded like it was a done deal on your last post. Sounds like he's let go of the contact and NC issue. You may have given him a jolt when you went head and did it without his input. This could have been what he needed to let go of it. He seems to respond better to you when you show your strong independant side. Hey you might even get him to come and say Hi too all us quacks here. LOL

Hmmm... so this morning was good. He was OK.

Now its going downhill again. No particular reason. Nothing really happened to cause it, per se. This just happens, just about every single day. It is exhausting.

I proposed something for us to do tonight to celebrate, since he is done with a big (pain in the [censored]) client today-- that he's been working on for months now. His reply? "I don't want to have fun". WTF?

He's being difficult again. Anything I suggest for this evening, from stay in playing Wii to going out to celebrate he answers with "we'll see". Yesterday he said he was going to help me design a circuit at the gym for me today. Today? He says "we'll see". He doesn't know if he wants to. He doesn't "feel good" and its "stress and depression".

He has OM's email saved on his computer, and I'M SURE he's spent the better part of the day reading and re-reading his 7 page manifesto, and that is what's put in him a bad mood. Well of course it would. I could go back and read the little sappy letters he wrote OW with his little pet name for her, and that would probably upset me too-- but, I'm not goign to do things to INTENTIONALLY upset myself.

And if I would become upset, I wouldn't reject things that would make me feel better so that I can wallow in my own misery.

So I sent him an email apologizing that he's having a bad day, and being all lovey dovey and happy he's ending this nightmare of a client. I gave him two options for tonight:

A. We go to the gym (as originally planned), he "trains" me, come home, I'll make dinner (he has a little work he said he has to do), clean up. AFter dinner, we play some Wii (also something we had originally planned for tonight), maybe open a bottle of wine, and then go to bed early and I said I would rub his back.

B. Go out to our local Dave and Busters. Start the evening with some dinner, then have a little friendly competition on the games. Start with air hockey, winner picks the next game. And I have made "cards" for him. Every time he wins a game, he picks a card. (without looking at them). They say things like "do your chores for a week" or other "suggestive" things. He doesn't know about the cards... that part was going to be a surprise.

I was also going to get a congrats balloon and card on the way home from work for finishing up this nightmare client. I know he's been stressed out recently with this client, and he's done with them forever because they sold the company so it's no longer his problem.

So, I offered two evenings. I said if he wanted to stay in, then we could do the Dave and Busters on Friday for date night. Giving him options.

The best I've gotten so far is "we'll see". I HATE we'll see. It drives me up a f'ing wall. I'm trying so hard and the best you have to give me is "we'll see". WTF. He knows we'll see drives me up a wall too.

I guess maybe I don't fully understand what his triggers really are. Like I just don't get where this afternoon's (and every f'ing afternoon's) comes from. And then he'll be in a pissy mood all night, I'll be all cheery trying to get him out of his funk. He'll start to come around (maybe) by the end of the night. He'll be fine tomorrow morning. Then rinse, wash, repeat tomorrow. I dread weekday afternoons anymore. I really do. This is EVERY F'ING DAY. My stress level goes through the roof and my productivity every day becomes ZILCH around 2 pm because this is the crap he pulls.

So, I gave him options. I'm not picking for him. I'll go home with the card and the balloon. If he decides to continue with this "we'll see" and "I don't care" (the close cousin of "we'll see")-- then I'll go the gym alone. And maybe to see a friend that I promised to visit this weekend and then didn't get a chance to because I was busy with H.

I've given him "chances" to have a better night than sitting around moping. If he chooses to sit aorund and be miserable, that's on him. I'm just annoyed now. WTF. This is the behavior that annoys me. And its not occasionally... it just about EVERY F'ING DAY he pulls this crap.

TT

So why do you keep putting up with it? He plays you like a fiddle TT. Look back at this weekend, an apology and a couple of days of giving you crumbs, and you offer to move to wherever he wants. Stand back a second and look at this again. You know that he will get like this, you even know when he will, yet you still get upset when it happens. He knows this and keeps you completely of balance by it.
You are going to drive yourself insane if you keep this up.

You need to go back to doing you 180s. That was getting his attention, except that you need to implement it and stick to it. Going back to your old routine as soon as he gives you a few crumbs will only get you back to where you started, which is where you seem to be now. How long can you sustain this?

(((((((TEATEA)))))))

Nah, TMTS, I didn't offer to move this weekend. I offered that way back in September, and have periodically brought it back up as an offer since then. I haven't actually mentioned it in quite awhile.

The moving bit had nothing to do with this weekend. That was in response to SMB's question....

I am still trying to do 180s when he's not behaving. Not perfect, but trying.

TT

SMB-- you out there? Hello? Anyone?

Hi TT,

I don;t know about the others, but I'm waiting on a status report from last night. How did it go? What kind of mood was he in? Did he take you up on your offers?

Ah-- sorry. I didn't bother typing a status report because it was just MORE OF THE SAME. I am starting to sound like a broken record.

I called him on my way home. He freaked and was screaming into the phone. Nice thing about this new fancy phone he got... when he yells into it, it cuts out like crazy, so I don't hear a word of it really. Its like the phone feels bad so it doesn't transmit what he's saying. Ha!

I stopped at the store, got him a card for finishing up the client. And a balloon. He barely even ACKNOWLEDGED them when he walked in the door.

I did a lot of babysitting when I was younger... all thru high school and college, that was how I supported myself. And the ONLY way I can describe how he gets when he gets in these moods is REALLY like a 3 year old having a tantrum. He REFUSES to do anything. That was him last night.

So he laid down for a bit when we got home. I did bad on my 180... sigh. I put a foot up on the soap box again... Truthfully at this point, I think he's "mad" at my changes that I've made because they make HIM feel like a POS. As he should. That's how he's behaving. He constantly tears down me posting on this site or reading things about marriage, etc. He says its all "fluff" and everyone here is "quacks". And he says this site isn't why I changed-- its because apparently "he made me". Its really like he's lost ALL touch with reality anymore...

I went downstairs and made dinner. Even though he was in his three year old phase of "I don't want dinner". "I'm not going to eat- I'm not hungry". Just out of principle. Really-- grow up. So I made him dinner anyways. And I put it down in front of him and lo and behold he ate it all. Whatever. I cleaned it all up.

And then we did play the Wii for a bit. He was more social, but it was strained. I was exhausted from dealing with a temper tantrum all day...

And we went to bed. Actually had a nice conversation for a bit in bed, about random things completely unrelated.

He is still at home this morning. His cousin's birthday is today, and we were invited to go out bowling tonight. So last night he's "too tired" and "doesn't feel good" enough to do something fun with me... but tonight bowling is fine. And I'm sure poker tomorrow night will be fine too. Resentment building...

Oh, and I asked him if he wanted to re-schedule going out for Friday night and he gave me a "we'll see". That was it. Whatever.

Tonight the dog has a visit scheduled with a group (she's a therapy dog). And bowling will be occurring at the same time. So I said I'd like to try to do both, maybe do half the visit then go bowling. He said "we'll see". I am REALLY starting to HATE HIM.

I decided last night that I am going to suck it up and schedule an appointment with the Harleys. I'm not even going to bother telling H. He'll just flip I'm spending money on "the quacks". Whatever.

TMTS-- since you've counseled with them-- how much can you accomplish in one session? I mean, I kinda need to set up a plan in one session. I can't afford multiple ones. As a couple, we can. Me alone? I can't. And because I don't know what is going to happen with this I need to protect my finances as if I am alone. I can't afford multiple 200 dollar installments. Is there anything I can do to "prepare" to cut down on red tape for that first session that would just eat up time?

So yeah, he's back to being the same old [censored]. I told him I was waiting to see what time and where bowling was before I made a decision as to what I was doing tonight. He's being pretty "whatever" about it.

What annoys the crap out of me, is that every time he gets angry, he claims that the times before when he was nice he was "just pretending" and it was "all fake". He says his being nice this past weekend was just fake and him pretending.

He's being difficult again this morning. I'm not sure what I am going to do with the dog's stuff and bowling tonight. I would truthfully miss the dog's stuff to go out with his cousin's bowling. I think that would be fun... but part of me says that I should go to the dog's class no matter what, and meet them later, just to make a "point". But I hate making "points". I feel like that is all H does anymore-- do things to make a "point". So I'm torn. And I seriously doubt he'd do both with me. He'll make up some excuse. He doesn't like doing the dog's therapy visits with me, so he'll have some reason why he can't.

He needs to delete that stupid email and stop trying to read stuff into it, and pissing himself off with it.

I'm really curious as to what the Harley's will have to tell me about all of this...

TT

My suspicion is that they will tell you to get out of there. You're either real tough or real naive TT. He continues to play this game with you, and then flat out admits that he is and your first thought is that you'd be happy to miss the dog stuff for him. Isn't this the guy that went to poker when you were sick a few weeks back, and then asked you if you wanted to go out the next night? Does he not just fluffs you off every chance he gets.

Sorry TT, but you keep doing the same thing over and over. As soon as you think there is a change in him you go away from your plan and loose it on him. He told you straight out that he's playing a game... learn the rules girl!!!

TT, I can't help but post to you. Things like puppet on a string & reinforcing bad (unwanted) behaviors come to mind. Why do you do it?

What would you do if there were NO drama? Would you really be happy? Do you think you're ready for it?

I dunno, I've always said my dog was the one who DIDN'T give me crap, so I wouldn't be looking to ditch her for an evening of being belittled & berated by your H.

Why is it that you've decided you deserve this? And, it IS the same stuff...so while I'm no vet like SMB or others that have posted to you, I can't figure what you're looking for. The Harleys is a good next step for you, IMO.

Sorry TT, didn't answer your question.

Yes I found that to set up the Plan A it took one session.

Basically she concentrated on LB's about 30min. Then the est was on meeting EN's, but the main thing to concentrate on is the LBs. So no snapping on him.

Oh, and what is this "I made you" attitude? Do you still think you're not his "property".

OK, signing myself up for a Harley session. May be the best $195 I've ever spent on myself!

Julie-- I guess I have been operating under the assumption thus far that he would see my changes, see how the marriage could be better, and that time is a great healer. I know he's still hurting from all of this. I figured if we could put some time and distance and GOOD memories between us and all this crap... it could get better. And part of me thinks you have to put up with the rain to get the rainbow....

Now, before you go off on me again... I've realized that this has gone TOO FAR at this point. And my best intentions are now being used AGAINST me. And that his "taker" is in total control...

And with the bowling for tonight... well, if he just randomly suggested that we go bowling tonight, I wouldn't go. But, this is with family (albeit, his, but still) and we are close with his cousin-- so to "not go" seems like I am also punishing him (the cousin). Plus, I do think it would be fun-- and H usually behaves himself in public because he wouldn't want anyone to know what a vile H he actually is for real. He's gotten VERY good at "pretending" in front of other people that he's this caring, concerned H.

So clearly, he's very capable of controlling his own emotions-- he can do it when his "reputation" with other people might be damaged-- he's then perfectly capable of treating me with respect, etc.

I am STILL waiting to hear the details from his cousin-- to figure out the time and place (I guess she's having trouble finding a place because of league bowling).

I guess a MAJOR part of the ENTIRE problem is that-- sadly enough-- I really don't have much of a life anymore outside of H. And he knows that and he plays it to his advantage. I do not have one single good friend in within a 4 hour car distance from me. Over the past 3 years, ALL of my good friends have moved away <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I am not close with my family. And the "friends" that I had while I moved out of the house I have done away with because they enabled my A and some are friends of OM... either way, keeping close with them keeps me too close for my comfort to OM.

So-- its just me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And I think that is why "having a backbone" and all these things are harder. When my good friend were here... and he was being a d!ck... I would just leave. Go out with them. Now-- well, its me and my dog. We have other "couples" we go out with, and I get along fine with the other woman in the case, but they aren't "my kind" of people. A lot of them are very pretentious housewives... and that just isn't me. I can't relate, at all. I am a rough and tumble grown up tomboy, that couldn't imagine sitting at home watching soap operas all day....

I know I can go out and try to find new activities and things to do, and friends. I am trying-- like by joining this group with my dog. But a lot of the women that do this are a lot older than me... sigh.

This also makes it hard when I would "leave". I seriously, honestly, don't really have anywhere to go. Sad, eh? I really don't. I can probably impose on a few aquaintence type friends for a few days, but I certainly have nowhere that I could go for a month. Even a week might be pushing it. And a hotel would get costly fast, and if this ends up in D, I need to protect my finances-- he makes 4x what I make.

He's got me by the balls. He knows it. I have no one. I am financially unstable on my own. I cannot afford our house alone, for sure. I could afford living somewhere on my own, but that would involve signing a year long lease, which may not be so smart. He has the upper hand, he knows it, he is taking advantage of it. Vile.

TT

TT, sorry for the delay. I've been really sick, which leads me to read A LOT here. Then I get everyone's stories all confused. Then my head aches, so I have trouble re-reading a thread so that I can post without looking like an utter idiot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I am sooooooo happy to hear you are going to counsel with the Harley's. And YES! It will be money well spent. One thing I noticed about Jennifer during counseling, was she truly wasn't "in it" for the money. She was eager to turn us loose on our own, when she believed we were ready...which was way before we thought we were. But she was right. She could have collected a lot more money on us, if that was her desire.

I will not comment much about my "advice", as it cannot compare with what you will get with the Harley's. When we started counseling, we didn't really post here much other than to update. I suggest you follow their coaching to a T. And I look forward to hearing how things progress. I would love to hear the Harley's take on your situation, just cause I am so driven by curiousity. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Julie,

I am sooooooo not a vet. I haven't even been here a year. I have been given the "opportunity" (not one I desired!!!!) to get lots of practice with Plan A, preparing for Plan B and Plan FU. And I was fortunate enough to have a FWS who was adamant that we counsel with the Harley's. BUT, I do not consider my advice anywhere near close to what the "vets" (most of whom HATE that name) can offer, mostly because they've been around long enough to see the same story repeat itself over and over. I'm just beginning to see the patterns.

TT, take care!

TT

I concur with SMB about Jennifer’s approach to recovery. It is very much about getting us to where we can take over. If she sees that both parties are "getting it" then she moves one to the next thing. It was the same way when I talked to her about Plan A, and if I should be contemplating Plan B.

Well, this first session would be just me-- I'm not even going to BOTHER asking H if he wants involved and don't feel like hearing his snide comments. I want this for MYSELF to help MYSELF with a plan and what I should be doing in this situation. I put in my online request, waiting to hear now. I would love to include H when he's ready at a later time.

As a twist...

H just told me he's going to have another round of "out of town" work. Nice. Great. This is gonna kill me. This out of town stuff... and the [censored] he used to pull was the MAIN REASON i was so miserable before...

I am SO NOT looking forward to this. This is an ENORMOUS trigger for me. Not only of how he treated me pre- my A... but the fact that he had 2 EAs while out of town himself, and also the last time he went "out of town for work" it was really to see his 3rd OW. I told him I want copies of his hotel receipts. Oh, and I didn't tell him, but I will be calling the hotel at some odd hour of the night... asking for his room. His [censored] better be there. He actually AGREED to all of this. I told him I'd agree to whatever he wanted for trust from me. Enormous trigger for me. I feel sick to my stomach right now, actually. I think this would bother me if we were both committed to this, but the fact that he's been doing nothing but destroying all of my efforts and doing destructive things-- well that makes me more apprehensive.

He's still being a d!ck currently. I've been sort of half ignoring him today. I just don't feel like dealing with him. He was laying on me earlier to get something from our office that he needed for our taxes. I told him that I was busy then and he'd have to wait. That annoyed him-- I could tell. Oh well. I wasn't lying. I was busy.

So just a few minutes ago, he all the sudden just goes "I have to go" (on instant messenger-- from work) and signs off. Without saying goodbye, or I love you. He KNOWS it drives me INSANE when he gets off the phone or IM without saying I love you anymore. And that's why he does it. A**.

So, I went upstairs to get the tax info... and called him. Lo and behold... he doesn't answer. Shady.

SMB-- I hope you are feeling better!! I, too, am curious what the Harley's will have to tell me. I am just so mixed up as to what I should be doing. He's being an A** and taking advantage of me... but at the same time I am a FW... but so is he... its just all confusing. I don't know how I should be approaching this... and I think my waffling in my approach makes the situation WORSE-- because it is weakness that he then exploits.

So- what I want out of the counseling session is a plan FOR ME. A plan that outlines how I should behave TOWARDS HIM.

Because as much as I love this board-- I've really gotten a TON of conflicting answers-- from give up now and run, to he's just behaving how all BS do, and maybe is being a little melodramatic, but this is normal-- to he's being a d!ck and deserves me to leave him.

I really appreciate the opinions and try to sort through them... but its very hard when the advice is inconsistent-- and when I feel that my thread has really been largely ignored.

I really need a plan...

TT

TT, LOL... I think I had every one of these thoughts through reading your thread. Your a tough cookie, I'll give you that.

Yeah, the fact that he constantly runs hot and cold with me doesn't help. I can't figure out how I should behave-- how he should behave, or anything.

So-- time for some professional advice. On what is to be expected from him behavior wise, how I should behave... etc.

I just feel like neither one of us are innocent in this... so we both have to be willing to own and make up for our mistakes. But he's not ready for that. He's still sloughing all his responsibility for his own actions on me.

I just hope he wakes up before its too late. I can't do this for him, and I can't make him "want" this.

I just feel like he has a "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" attitude right now. He thinks he can just go and start over in some other place, file this whole incident away, not have to deal with it, and then his new life will be all hunky-dory with no problems. Or that he will miracously just know how to appropriately deal with these things.

What saddens me is that these are the EXACT SAME patterns he had with his ex girlfriend (of about 5 years) before we started dating. And sadly enough, when things were really bad, he blamed it all on her, and made fun of her for turning to her religion for support. I am not a very religious person, but have found comfort here. Well-- he makes fun of me for being here. Its like it takes that person away from him, so he has to put it down.

The same patterns with the EAs when he was upset with the relationships... the same badmouthing to everyone about her...

I just was on the "other side" of it... so I didn't get it then. Now I do.

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that this is just a pattern for him. And rather than learn and grow... he just quits and starts over. And thinks that will fix it. But it doesn't. And he's back with me in the same spot that he was with his ex about 12 years ago. And yes, we were kids then. But the similarities between their demise and ours are eerie at this point. And his behavior is too.

Oh-- and H said he's going to come to the dog's visit with me, and then we would go bowling later. We'll see how that goes.

TT

Last night update:

I came home, and H and the dog were waiting for me, looking out the window waving as I pulled in (?!?!). I came in, exhausted. He was laying on the couch and told me to come lay down with him (he had taken care of the dog and everything already). So I did. He then looked at me and apologized for how he behaved on Monday, and told me he'd been having a very rough time recently.

I was floored.

I accepted the apology, and laid on the couch with him for a few minutes. We had a really bad snowstorm come through last night, so I decided not to go to the dog's visit because I figured no one would be there anyways, and my car sucks in the snow and her visit was a decent distance from the house. So, instead we went to a local pub to watch the hockey game and play some pool for his cousin's birthday (they cancelled the bowling idea partially because of the snow and didn't want to travel far and partially because she couldn't find a lane at a decent hour).

H was very nice last night, although I was EXHAUSTED. I must admit, even though he apologized, it is hard for me to let my guard completely down anymore. I just sit there waiting for the next thing that will set him off.

The only awkward thing that happened all night: his cousin was talking about how her father-in-law had been living with them for the past 2.5 weeks. Well, I asked why he was staying with them. She replied "well, they are having marital problems"... and then proceeded to tell us how he had cheated on his wife with someone he had met at work. I didn't ask for any more details. It was really kinda awkward (obviously his cousin knows nothing about our issues). It was really weird, and I had NO IDEA how to respond or anything-- I don't think I really did. His cousin launched into a speech about how marriage is hard work, etc, and about how they are working on fixing things, so that is good. At least she didn't go off on a WS bashing line... that would have made it worse. Sheesh. H was standing there for this whole conversation-- he didn't say anything or really react tho.

Today I met him for lunch, he seemed fine.

I really appreciate the apology he gave me yesterday. At least we are beyond the "you deserve it" phase. Maybe we are moving forward, even if it is slowly.

Still waiting to hear from the Harleys...

TT

TT,

At least you recongnize to be careful becasue you know that his cycle means that by the weekend you will see the other side. Right now you want to take this as the crumb he gives you and see where it goes.

Keep it up.