Alright, I know it's a touchy subject but I mean, come on, guys look at porn.

My ex-wife told me she felt this is the same as cheating on her. I don't see it that way. I'm hoping others can weigh in on this.

I don't think it is the same as cheating, but it does diminish my respect for a man. From what I've seen (and I admit it's not much), it is degrading to women. I don't think most men would be happy to see such photos of their daughters so isn't it a little hypocritical to want to see other people's daughters like that? If it really bothers your wife (i.e. it's a Love Buster), you should stop looking at it or at least work out an agreement with her. Don't hide it from her, but maybe she would prefer you not to leave it bookmarked on the computer or magazines laying around the bathroom, etc.

You haven't offered much of an argument: "Come on, guys look at porn."

The Policy of Joint Agreement pretty much covers the issue of porn. If your spouse is not enthusiastic about you using porn, then you shouldn't.

Telling your spouse 'you shouldn't feel that way' is a very bad idea.

Or, how about picking up gallery, and there is a pictorial of your wife? your sister? your aunt? you daughter?

Cheating? in a way it is to me. I actually know men who have NEVER USED IT, LOOKED AT IT...I got hammered on another "relationship" site for that statement.

I was told all men use it, love it, and to just deal with it.

That makes me a very pissed off woman.

Why not call it cheating when a man is investing time, money, and sexual energy in another woman with no consideration for his wife's feelings?

IMO, it is no different from any other subject in a relationship. If one of you has an issue with it, avoid it. I can't stand to hear my husband slurp his cereal milk, it literally turns my stomach. In a perfect world, he'd hear me after a dozen times telling him it upsets me, and stop doing it. He chooses not to hear me, and continue. He loses points with me.

Not a popular opinion here, but I don't attach the stigma to porn that most people do. I look at it in a historical aspect, not a Puritanical American aspect, which is based on a certain religious doctrine.

Of course, before you skin me alive, that does not involve anything to do with child porn, women who are held prisoner, yada yada. But you can say the same argument about many industries today that incorporate child slavery, rape, sweatshops, etc.

I would never endorse any such thing. But to say that a man is cheating on his wife by looking at, even satisfying himself to, porn, is a stretch to me. Men have stronger urges than women for a reason - survival of the species. We don't need that now, but the biological urge is still there. What are you going to do with it? Expect the women to partake more than she is interested? Expect the man to repress his biological urges and find himsself looking at other real-world women?

IMO, looking at porn - unless it is an addiction, of course - has no reflection on whether a man loves his wife and finds her attractive.

If my daughter grew up with a healthy sexual self-image, free of guilt, and felt that posing in seductive ways was a good way to earn her living, I'd have to respect her opinion. I personally can't imagine anyone NOT minding filming the stuff, but that's just me; obviously there are thousands of people out there who it doesn't bother - my daughter might end up being one of them - who knows? I know that in her mind it would be just another business. People are going to have sex anyway. Doing it for film or photos just means they're getting paid for it. I would be uncomfortable with it because of my own personal screwed up background, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings or turn my opinion of her.

IMO, it's more an issue of the women who DO have a problem with it, and whether they can achieve an agreement with their spouse. If they marry someone who is drawn to it, they are automatically asking for trouble in the marriage, because they are asking their partner to alter who they are. JMO

I think that the problem that most people have with porn is that it is not subtle. There does exist, however "porn lite" for women. If a woman watches a movie or reads a book about a male romantic hero, and fantasizes about that man, has she "cheated on her husband"? In my opinion, no. In the same way, a man who views pornography has not cheated on his wife. Besides, the psychological impact of porn is different on every person who views it.

What is can be, however, is a love buster. If a woman is insecure, and sees herself as being unfavorably compared, then that can be a huge wedge. (also true if she IS being unfavorably compared)

So where does the POJA fit in? Well, I can imagine that many women do not "enthusiatically agree" to their husbands viewing porn. Having said that, I have never seen the POJA as giving a spouse veto power. The husband would have to enthusiastically agree to no porn. So, the two of them together would try to figure out WHY the husband views porn, and how together they can have the husband enthusiastically agree.

Bottom line, if it's important for the marriage, BOTH parties have some work to do.

According to Dr. Harley, the POJA means 'do nothing without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse.' In this sense, doing nothing would mean not viewing porn. It is backwards to say 'I'm not enthusiastic about stopping something that bothers you.'

Ideally, respectful negotiation is used to come to a joint agreement. It seems that for some wives, an acceptable arrangement is that viewing porn should only be a shared experience, never a private one. But I'm sure many find any porn to be too distasteful to come to such a compromise.

We will have to agree to disagree about the POJA. The way you would apply it, you are simply giving over veto power to your spouse.

This is not to say veto power does not exist. If a spouse crosses a boundary, one always has the power to get out.

What constitutes a boundary will vary by person.

True. But I'm sure many do NOT find porn too distasteful, as long as it does not negatively affect the marriage via addiction or lying or sneaking (which is actually one partner's typical, if not logical, response to the other partner's non-negotiable stance), else why the multibillion-dollar industry? And just like cereal milk slurping or any other activity one partner finds too distasteful, it should be agreed upon by both.

Mr goodwrench, you sound exactly like another poster from another site...?

Fantasizing about an actor in a romantic movie or novel, in no way shape or form, can be compared with hard core porn. Give me a break dude. Apples and peaches..

I have read that a males need for masturbation comes (pun intended LOL)from a need to keep fresh product in his testi to be able to spread his seed and ensure the perpetuity of his genes...

I would be very interested if someone with a REAL academic/scientific background would weigh in on this statement.

Guys definately have stronger sexual urges. The availabilty and sheer volume of pornographic material has sky-rocketed...and with that, I bet divorce, and pain and suffering for those whom it hurts.

Are you saying that a woman's insecurity is the reason for her dislike of porn?

There is an article on this site that states cheating is defined by the offended spouse. (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8501_fft.html) We all have relationship boundries that we establish for ourselves. And I agree with you concerning women. That is why I stopped watching soaps years ago and don't read romance novels. For me, they set up unrealistic relationship expectations.



I don't believe it is necessarily a matter of insecurity or comparison. I believe it stems from a woman's desire to be the sole source of sexual pleasure for her husband. Is that unrealistic or unnatural?



I agree. POJA isn't about vetos, it is about getting creative and coming up with a solutions. However, if solving a pornography issue has become "important to the marriage", it seems to me that the pornography is an addiction. We can easily give up that which we are not addicted to if we see that it is hurting our spouse.

Please explain how it is different. One of the objections to porn is that a woman should not be in competition with the young women in the industry. Nor should a man be in competition with George Clooney. Heck even George Clooney can't live up to the image he creates on screen. Fantasy is fantasy.

It COULD be the reason. The reasons for objection will vary from person to person. Could be religous, could be personal taste, could be a sexual hang up. In no way am I placing blame on a woman for objecting to pornography. Any reason is a valid one, as it pertains to her marriage. I guess what I'm saying is that there is a REASON a man looks at porn. If it's an issue, that reason needs to be addressed, not just "I don't want you looking at porn, the end." Taking away the media without addressing the psychology is worthless.

Not necessarily insecurity, as I addressed in another post.

Unnatural, no. Unrealistic? Depends. As said elsewhere, men often have a greater libido. There will be times when the wife is unavailable for SF, even if she is willing. Sometimes those can stretch to multiple weeks. You may say to yourself, "well heck, what's a couple of weeks, I can go MUCH longer." Maybe, but you are not him.

Personally, I would much rather viewing porn than pursuing an EA/PA with a real live person. That's just me, though, YMMV.

All I am trying to say in this thread is that some have porn as a separate issue, whereas I see it as any other issue in a marriage that needs to be addressed, such as DJs or AHs.

Not trying to pick on you, but wouldn't you say that men in porn are also degraded? I understand that porn is generally produced for men, but what I have seen does not make me proud for the guys.

I think the best scenario for porn in a relationship is when both partners enjoy it together.

If a wife is not getting enough SF, and her DH is spending more time with 'porn' and his hand than her, she has every right to object.

If he is addicted, misses work for porn, goes to adultfriendfinder, won't save cookies on the computer, etc., wife has every reason to object.

If he verbally compares his wife in a negative way to the women in porn, wife has every reason to object.

If he is keeping his porn use a secret, wife has every reason to object.

Because I enjoy a little now and then, it doesn't bother me that DH enjoys it now and then. He is very open about it. Sometimes we enjoy it together. But it is no way an everyday thing for either of us (sure sign of addiction.)

Personally, I do have a couple of dislikes. We had a huge fight one night because I wanted SF, and he indulged in self-fulfillment to porn. (In the end, it turned out he thought I was sick. He would have rather had me.) So now I can now safely conclude that I do NOT like DH self-fulfilling before coming to bed with me, no matter what. There is a boundary.

One topic for women to discuss when talking about porn with their DHs is that it is a sign that DH is spending too much time with porn if he starts finding himself negatively comparing his wife's body/sexual style to the women in porn -- even if he doesn't say a word, even if it is only in his head, he needs a break. Maybe a long one. Because porn is fantasy, not the real world.

In the end, I believe that the majority of men look at porn. If you can get to a place where your DH can be O&H with you about it, at least then you will know how far it goes. If you say, "Don't look at it!" and shut him out, he'll probably go underground with it.

This is a big deal for some women, and I completely understand -- because personally, I cannot stand being with a man that goes to topless bars or strip clubs. I wouldn't date a man like that, let alone marry one. So I can completely understand why some women find porn highly offensive.

Agreed, if a man chooses porn and self abuse over his living, breathing, loving wife, that's a serious problem. If a man looks at porn because he would rather not do the things it takes to 1) lay the groundwork for his wife being open to meeting his need for SF or 2) get his wife aroused (c'mon men you KNOW that she needs to work up to it)

Then there are serious issues with the marriage that go way beyond porn.

I understand that there are people who think it is never acceptable in any form or circumstance, and I respect that. If you are married to one of these people, you need to determine how to address the reasons why you do it and how to keep both of you satisfied.

Also, anything that is an addiction will kill any relationship, marital or otherwise. Addiction to hobbies, or substance abuse or anything else that kills the love needs to be addressed.

Call me naive, but I think you can look at porn without being addicted, drink without being a drunk, enjoy a hobby without being obsessed.

Well Mr Goodwrench, doesn't sound like you are very much of a marriage builder. And yes, the veto power does give one spouse to say no and have that no respected. If you think you know so much -- go ask Dr. Harley about it yourself. You have your s**t a**backwards and it's jerks like you that screw things up in the first place. Try not to give advice -- your sucks!!!!!!!!!