You know...I really wish my Husband would read these posts....and many others as well. I've emailed him the links to the website-with out directing him to my posts directly..even printed out the basic principals..and EN
?aires... we've gotten nowhere with those... I know he was going thru ALOT the last 6 monthes- and now a 2nd surgery...
but getting him to talk to me about what he wants/needs in our Marriage is damn near impossible. I know he loves me- he tells that all the time. and is very sincere... I love him with all my heart, too. For the most part- we do have a VERY good relationship- and I cherish all that he does for me, for us for my (our) kids.... I know he was hurt badly before, too...maybe he's just afraid to show too much emotional connection for fear of being hurt again, too. But I really do want to be able to connect with him there...and share all our joys and pains as one... ""That which does not kill me can only make me stronger"' I can't remember who said that, though. I love my H...and I'm sure we'll grow old together.... I just want to be able to make the very best of all the days that we have together.... like I told him before- if I don't know what he wants/needs...then I can't be sure to try to give that to him. I try hard to relay to him where I am, what my needs and wants are...but sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall... I ask for compromise, ways to meet in the middle... but he offers very little input...and often simply states that he is happy with thing just the way they are- yet will complain about something --and not be able to explain to me just what the issue is or how we can adjust to make it better... Maybe I'm just reading too much into ways to fix problems that don;t really exist???? any input here would be greatly appreciated. THX

Hi 4Better!

I have some input- I am dealing with the same thing in my own marriage. But I was wondering if you could tell me: what is your current strategy for handling your husband's porn use?

I'll check back later!
~Saturn

I am being very careful first off, to try to keep my own fears & mis-trust in check- you know- the Demons/Ghosts from my past from causing me to just go totally mad with letting the issue consume me.

Secondly, I try to keep an open communication going between me and my H about everything- as much as possible. It's hard sometimes... on both counts... but I know that He truly is sincere and honest in his love for me, and I know it (porn use) can be so very tempting and "in your face" everywhere- even in the check out line at the grocery store- some of the men;s mags--- "Maxim", "Stuff", etc.....right out there, and every tv commercial, every billboard sign---it all promotes it, after all, ""Sex sells"" right? I know I can't make it all go away... but I can (at least do my best) to manage how I deal with things ( I do have a tendency to overreact at first <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> but I am trying- and I am slowly learning to trust him again... thus far he has not given me any further reason not to.

I have not threatened him, belittled him nor punished him in any way for his trespasses... I do try to keep him up on my feelings and my fears.... He doesn't usually have much to say himself- but he is just that way...

I really want to ask him more about what attraction there is for him in the porn- and what he really gets out of it... but I don't want to push and seem like I am dwelling too much on the negative, I wanna move forward and look more to reinforce the positive behaviours. (kinda like in training kids- you know? LOL!)

I am making my strongest efforts to keep a positive outlook and to continue to love him- to the best of my ability-- the "loving by choice" thing... I have not made any changes in how I have treated him, I still do all the caring things and loving gestures that I always have... perhaps even a little more so, especially in letting him know that I love him, I find him very attractive & sexy...and that I do enjoy and very much want to have a full and satisfying sexual relationship with him ALONE... and I've made a point to ask him what he wants, what he needs..... and I do try to accomodate his wishes ( when I can get him to actually speak it) as much as I feel comfortable doing- and let him know where there is a point that I am uncomfortable with anything.

Basically- we do have a very good sexual relationship, I am more comfortable with him than I ever have been with anyone else... and I enjoy a variety of positions, oral sex- giving as well as recieving (although I do give ALOT more than I recieve!), and even sometimes anal sex... He's always gentle and tender with me... never "rough" or forceful.

I would really like to be more sexually active with my Husband- make love to him 2-3 times a day every day if we could!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> He doesn't have quite the same level of drive as I do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but ya know.... it is where it is. I guess that just makes the good times even that much better !! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So- how about you, Saturn? How's things in your Relationship and how do you deal? and what other input can you offer? anything is much appreciated!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is the key. Every behavior has a payoff. Even (especially) the ones that are self destructive or hurt others. This is easily written, not so easily done. He may not even know what the payoff is. It could be a lot of things, control, boredom, etc. I could almost guarantee he does not take it as seriously as you.

Good luck.

Hi again 4better!

I'm glad you wrote about your approach. I went back and read the posts from when you first came here and I thought I saw a trend. From what I gather, you're in your mid-thirties and this is your third marriage. Your first husband was addicted to porn/drugs and was abusive, your second husband was controlling and abusive as well. Your third husband has shown some signs of hidden porn usage, and you're worried about repeating history.

I like the way you are approaching the issue with your current husband- your post is about you not him (that shows your focus is where it should be!) You are trying to keep calm, working to provide honest communication, and pursuing intimacy with your husband because you want it (not to distract him from other outlets). Good for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To find out what your husband gets out of porn, I highly recommend reading Patrick Carne's book "Out of the Shadows". Your husband may not understand why he does this- it is probably a visceral reaction he perfected over many many years. He just knows porn makes him feel better- he may not understand "why" and he also may not grasp the negative aspects of turning to porn while also being married.

The only thing you didn't mention was your boundaries. What are you willing to accept, and where is the "line" drawn for consequences? If your husband is addicted to porn, he will continue and the behavior will escalate until he's motivated to change. If he's not addicted, then he'll stop easily and won't lie or hide his actions from you. You'll be able to tell the difference.

My husband has an addiction, and we're both in a 12-step program to recover. The program really helps me- it is such a relief to know I'm not alone and to have a clear plan. I felt lost for so long. I have hope now, and I know I'll be ok no matter what my husband chooses to do about his problem.

Best wishes and hope to you!
~Saturn

I agree with Saturn. I think professional help of some form is in order, because he clearly has a mental 'need' for doing it. You can't just go all controlling on him, he'll just hide better. So if you approach him with full honesty - and NO judgment - and say 'let's make this work' he'll likely be grateful to finally be able to be honest about it.

Honestly? I would print out your posts here, hand them to him on a good night, and just sit and wait for him to talk. Before I did that, though, I would research agencies or whatever are in your area where you can book some appointments to discuss it with a professional. Again, in a non-judgmental way. Make sure you couch it in terms of 'I want a full, happy, HONEST marriage with you, and as much SF as I can get! Let's work together to make that happen.'

It may be that there is something about you that is keeping him from wanting to engage in SF as much as you want. But if so, you need to know it, right?

View this as any other problem in your M that you would solve together. But it sounds like it really may take a bit of counseling, especially on his part, to get to the root of why he needs it so much. Good luck.

Thanks for your frank reply...
That is how I feel-that there is something about me that is keeping him from wanting to engage in SF as much as I want..
and yes- THAT would very well be the best place to start--finding out what and why... if you can't identify the problem, you can't take measures to repair it very well, now can you?

...as to him "needing it so much".... I'm not sure really just how much-how often he has used it! I did ask- and he told me maybe less than once a month- every couple of monthes or so ????? I'd like to believe that- a part of me does...but he DID lie about before, didn't he?

...also, I once asked him if he had ever been with a woman who was SO sexually attracted to him- and wanted to make love with him as much as I do-- his reply was "No"... I remember something about asking him if he knew how to handle it (me & my appetite for SF--with him) and he was at loss... said he wasn't sure really how to deal with it... a clue, maybe????

Another thing-- his ex-wife #1 LTR, was VERY into porn- and he told me that SHE had gotten him into it.... They lasted less than 2 full years... from what I hear from him and his family- she was very manipulative, deceitful and conniving. She DID take him for a real ride financially- left him in MAJOR debt....

His live-in GF, LTR #2; lasted less than 2 years all together as well...she was sleeping around on him- and made little effort to hide it evidently, nearer the end, another one who USED him--he worked 2 jobs to support her and her 3 kids... while she was sleeping with the owner and trainer where she kept her horse boarded, H paid for boarding as well as the animal...

Another "trend" in relationships.... maybe he views sex as a woman's way of getting close enough to him to really break him..... (can't say I blame him) and maybe because of these "ghosts"... he has trouble feeling SAFE with the emotional and full sexual aspect of OUR relationship... hhhmmmmmmmm.....

You're right... I am 36, he is 33... and correct on my Ex's behaviours--and my VERY REAL fears of a reapeat of history...


I made it clear to him that porn- of any kind in any amount is STRICTLY and totally unacceptable in our home and our marriage. I did have to reiterate that a couple of times- as well as explain in detail WHY I felt that way( which was really hard for me and brought back more bad memories than I'd care to have remembered)... He seemed to comprehend that better- and seemed genuinely regretful for hurting me with his use of the porn...and told me that he loved me and did not want to ever hurt me or lose me, and that he was willing to give it up altogether for me- because I mean more to him than porn... he did even show deep emotion-- he cried, actually after my full disclosure of my past and why I despised porn and felt so hurt and betrayed by his use and(moreover--his LYING about it) and I did tell him that there was a point where he would have to choose- it or me- period. I know that he knew just how serious I was in that.

As for my boundaries in actual SF with my Husband... as long as he is gentle, considerate and understanding--I am willing to do or at least try pretty much anything WITH HIM. He has been all those things with 99.9% of the time we have been together. I have felt safe, comfortable and unashamed to want/need and enjoy SF with him.... His LYING about his use of porn has really impacted the way I feel about that, now-- but I do try to keep that under control-- and keep my stance on loving him in whatever ways I can... because I am sure that if I were so repulsed that I denied him any SF...he would surely with draw further and revert to more porn usage. So I have been diligent in keeping my statements directed towards the fact that he LIED about it,and that it was the porn that I despise--not him...and certainly not that he used porn to replace SF with me...I have also asked him if there were things that I/we were not doing that he would prefer to do---ie, as in some of the porn videos, etc... I've tried to let him know that He could ask me for anything that he wanted, and that I would try to accomodate those wishes, within reason in order to keep him satisfied and coming back to ME for his his SF....

Well.... I guess I have said quite a mouthful, here...give you all some time to digest and formulate a response...
Thanks again...

I am sure he doesn't...:( does any man take things like this as seriously as their female partners?

and I agree- it is much easier said than done--anything worthwhile usually is...anything "right" usually is harder to do...

and yes--making a big deal out of the negative aspects in most any situ will tend to reinforce the negativity... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

and luck has nothing to with things...it's a state of mind, being determined and focused with dedication towards achieving a goal that creates the real accomplishment.

Thanks for your input.... insightful and to the point...

I probably should let this topic die, but I thought that maybe I had another insight.

First thing is about addiction: Anytime you are addicted to something, all bets are off. Take alcohol for example. I am a social drinker, but not an alcoholic. If you are or were married to a drunk, I can see where you don't want alcohol to have any part in your life. I still maintain that you can drink (or look at porn) without being addicted. If you are an addict, the solution is beyond me. I don't know what cures (or treats) an addiction.


Second is the concept that men and women look at the issue differently. From what I have read, women tend to think the worst about what men are thinking while looking at porn. Men generally don't give any thought to the things that women fear most about porn. (Not true of ALL men, esp. addicts). I remember reading in another post about a woman not caring that her H was masturbating, but was angry he was doing it with porn. My first thought was, I bet he's running a porn movie in his head while masturbating even if he isn't looking at any. I really fail to see the difference in imagination and media, from a psychological POV.

Third, I think that I know what SOME men get out of it. It has to do with arousal, and the fact that women and men are aroused differently. What men get is STIMULATION. Depending on a man's drive, and circumstances of his M, it's possible that men use porn to make up the "stimulation gap" he may be feeling. I don't say this to blame women, but sometimes a woman may be unwilling or unable to stimulate her H. Men are visual, and if a woman prefers to do it with the lights out, or doesn't like wearing sexy clothes, or *ahem* change the scenery from time to time, then a man may be getting his visual stimulation from porn.

Delving even further into an idea that is unpopular, women, being stimulated differently, sometimes use other media for "romantic stimulation". Most men couldn't care less about this, do not feel threatened by this, and are rarely worried about comparison.

I think that just as anything can come BETWEEN a couple, porn can do this. But it doesn't have to.

While I am less interested in porn than my DH, I have shared the experience with him some. It can be a neat and different starting point for exploration in your sexual relationship together. We talk about what parts we like, what we don't like, how we feel about it...etc.

I also see it as Mr. Goodwrench said, a "different" kind of stimulation for a man. Just like I may want sweet nothings to turn me on, he may like visual stimulation. I think it only becomes a real problem when the woman sees it as a substitution for her, a threat so to speak, and therefore something that comes between them. I'm not saying that everyone should or can accept porn as a part of their marriage, but I think it can have a place if both partners use it and see it in it's place.

Definatley stimulation is a primary factor, I agree most men are visually stimulated...whereas most women are not... I however, am against the norm in so many ways, I guess. I too- am very visually stimulated, I like to have the lights on when we make love, I like to see him, undress him, I like to see the look on his face as he looks at me....I do try to wear sexy things- things that I know he likes....and change things up- scenery- a bit as well... take it to the office, the living room (if the kids are staying over somewhere else) wherever--- whenever-- not just "planned" SF...




Perhaps this is true... but if there were something that I was doing/taking part in that made my H feel uncomfortable, unsafe, threatened-- I would be more than willing to give it up should he ask me. To me, it's a point of respect of each other, marriage and a question of appropriateness.

Also, I have 2 crucial points, here--from my own POV and relationship; 1st is that there are/must be boundaries; I do not feel safe where porn of use... therefore, I must ask of him to give it up, for me- for us- for our marriage. NOT just because I don't like it... but because it makes me feel VERY unsafe, uncomfortable and distrustful... albeit, much of which is caused by my previous experiences with my XH and his sick and twisted addictions to porn.... Secondly- LYING will not be tolerated in my marriage; from any POV, for any reason- and H LIED to me about it, THAT hurt me more than the actual use of the pornography- the fact that he LIED to me... that broke my trust, and my heart.

I did ask him if he would be willing to give up the porn-- for me, for our relationship. for our marriage... He said "yes".... and --so far as I can tell--- he has done as he said he would.

We talked about the honesty involved, and made promises to each other to ALWAYS BE COMPLETELY HONEST with each other... That is the only way, I believe, to keep our marriage safe and our relationship strong and true. i love my Husband with all my heart, and I know he loves me as well.....

HTM,
you are right, it CAN be acceptable and useful as a tool in a relationship---provided that BOTH partners agree, accept and are mutually comfortable with the use of it. I see no problem with that kind of agreed upon use and stimulation if that is what a couple wishes to SHARE TOGETHER. Just my POV...

4Better, I just wanted you to know that I appreciate your input on this subject. You have given me some insight into this issue that I had not had before.

Thankfully, I have not been in a relationship with any kind of addict in my life, and your description has helped me gain some understanding.

Mr Good Wrench...
Glad my posts could be of some , however little, benefit...
Would you mind elaborating on just what specifically you gained???

I have to wonder why you would "have to respect her opinion."
There is no reason you would have to do that. Continue to love her, of course. But you certainly would be allowed an opinion in total disagreement with hers. And you would be justifed in expressing it.

I have four daughters and, at the very least, I would be disappointed should they choose the making of pornography as a 'career'. They haven't and won't. But I would certainly have an opinion in opposition to theirs if they were considering it. I would exert whatever influence I could to discourage it.

Sometimes I feel you live in a moral vacuum. You seem to have no firm convictions about the right and wrong of very much.

If she decided that robbing banks was a good way to 'earn a living' would you 'have to respect her opinion'. I mean, you might just as well say," Afterall, banks will be robbed anyway so my daughter may as well reap some of the benefits of robbing banks."

I'd respect her opinion because I know I've raised her to be intelligent and fairly wise for a teenager (so far), and because if she becomes an adult and chooses that career, then it's her choice. I'd be disappointed, too, if she chose that because (1) of the sleezeballs she'd be working with and (2) she has great talents that will take her far in other pursuits. But bottom line, if she were to decide that doing porn was fun for her (tho I can't imagine how, since she barely likes to kiss yet) and what made her happy to get up in the morning and go to work, then more power to her. That's my job as her mother - to teach her to go for what makes her happy, instead of what society says she should do. I watched my brother choose accounting over teaching history, for the money, and he's woken up miserable every day of his life since.

I have very firm convictions about MY view of right and wrong. They just don't align with yours. Are they, therefore, wrong? Please explain that. If you were Baptist and I was Buddhist, would you tell me I'm going to h&ll because I'm not a Baptist?

In my view - child porn and addiction aside - sex is a very natural and important part of human life. To hide the fact that it goes on, to assign shame to anyone who involves in it as a business, IMO is self-righteous and close-minded. So very many people come on this site and say they love sex. It's so important that it can ruin marriages. Why then, is watching people act out a sex act in a video - which they're doing for money like any other job - reprehensible? Because some people say it's sinful? What about the thousands of other nationalities around the world who don't hold to our Puritanical view of sex? Are they all miscreants, deviants, sinful, for openly enjoying sex and letting it be a healthy part of their lives?

Is it because the person whose partner is watching it somehow feels...less...when their partner adds porn to his/her life? Then it isn't about porn or sex - it's about ego. Or fear.

fwiw, as far as I know, making porn is not illegal? And it's not taking something that belongs to someone else. No one is forced to watch porn. So it's hardly the same as robbing banks.

My daughter is hopefully going to grow up with a healthy love for and appreciation of sex. We raise our kids expecting that. Why then, should we instantly assign shame to them if they choose to have fake sex in a film, or show off their body for a camera? You can argue that it's because porn can be involved in bad activities, like addiction, but then, I've seen marriages disintegrate on these boards for people getting addicted to video games. Would you shame someone for playing them? They could possibly become addicted. Would you shame someone for loving chocolate and gaining 200 pounds?

The real issue here is whether you consider sex/porn to be a sin, I guess. You may. I don't. I think it's part of life and to pretend people don't do it, and don't enjoy porn as an enhancement to their sex life, is naive. Just like "Just Say No" and the abstinence campaigns were naive and utter failures.

Cat, your post begs a response and I will as soon as I have prepared one.

You do pose an interesting concept, however, which I was never aware of until now. That it is possible to have 'FAKE' sex. Im curious,if you will, does this mean that if a child should be conceived as a result of having 'fake'sex, is it then a 'fake' embryo developing into a 'fake' human being? And should one of the participants contract a sexually transmitted disease, is it only a 'fake'disease without consequences? And if ,as a result of being saturated with pornography, a man stalks a woman and rapes her, is it a 'fake' rape?

Cat, have you ever considered that maybe you or anyone else- me included -may not be qualified to set the standards of what is right and wrong, good and evil? Maybe the 'game of life' is best played by the rules established by the Creator of the game from the beginning. Just maybe this is so. These forums are testimony to what often happens when we try to play the game by our own rules. You don't believe the 'game of life' is 'fake' too do you?
I never considered that. But maybe it is.

But what if it's not? It might be a risk to big to take. I'll give it some thought.

Have a good day, cat.

ICH, you're the one who said you think I don't know right from wrong. I never claimed to know your version; only mine. I never tried to tell you what your or anyone else's right/wrong was - only explain mine. You can write cute as much as you want, but I'm not playing any game, I'm not trying to change anyone's rules, I'm merely defending my opinion against your supposition that I'm immoral.

As for rules for the game of life, what is it you think I'm trying to change? Am I shoving it down your throat? Let me ask again; if some other religion than whatever you are doesn't have the same rule you go by - I assume you're saying your religion is against pornography - does that mean their religion is null and void because it doesn't espouse what yours does? Why?

For your question, if a child were conceived, it was conceived by two adults who knew what they were doing. Just like any other two adults who are practicing SF run the risk of a child, who may or may not want one - all adults, all running the same risk; why is the former worse than the latter? Because they were doing what you consider sinful at the time? Are unmarried adults no less sinful? Same goes for STD.

As for rape, I would venture that, since rape is really about control and not about sex, most occurrences will have less to do with porn than mental issues.

4Better:

I learned a lot from reading your posts about your H's porn usage, and how you felt about it. Like I said before, men tend to see it differently. Your strict "no porn" boundary helped me understand how some people feel about it.

Particularly interesting was some of the associations that you had with porn, although I would hope that not all men who view porn are abusive. I would feel much as you do about your H not engaging in SF, but MBing with porn. I have no experience with this, as in 22 years I have never turned Mrs G down.

I do maintain that MBing as a substitute for SF is a bad idea with or without porn. Like I said, even without porn, a man will have a porn movie running in his head while MBing.

The most interesting thing, to me was how important the concept of radical honesty is, even in the beginning.

You said that early on, you asked H about porn, that you were totally against it. That was radical honesty, you let him know up front. He said he didn't do it, and he was NOT honest about it, he told you what he thought you wanted to hear. I think you made it clear that this was a boundary for you.

He apparently WAS into porn, and since he knew how you felt about it, lied to you and tried to hide his porn use. Had he been honest, I think the two of you could have saved a lot of time and heartbreak. He may have thought that he was protecting you, but in blew up in his face, and yours too.

Ok - going out on a limb here, and if anyone throws this back in my face, I'm just going to ignore you, so there!

One of my issues has been that I have dismissed the feelings of people if I thought their feelings were wrong or irrational. Reading your posts sort of took me out of a direct situation, and helped me to understand that while I may not agree with the way someone feels, their feelings are still valid, and need to be treated with the same respect I would want someone to pay to MY feelings. I could see that while I did not see porn the same way you did, I could see the effect it had on you. Just because I am comfortable with something, does not mean everyone else might be. I will say, for the record, that my own viewing is rather rare, maybe 5-10 times a year, sometimes with Mrs G, sometimes not, but she does not have an issue with it. (I will also say that I did it somewhat opposite from your H, I would show Mrs G something I liked on a tape BEFORE we did it. It was a way to feel her out on her feelings about trying it.)

In short, your sharing has been both instructional and a growth opportunity for me.

Thanks