I will throw this out there, but i have to go to work and will not be able to respond immediately.
Sorry <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

There are so many unqualified, so called , family therpists out there today that it is actually getting really scary. Where does one turn for help? If someone has more letters after their name, well, we assume they know what they are talking about.

Fact is, that is not true at all!

Let me give you an example.
My w got drunk and had a ONS with her boss.
At some point in the discussion, my therepist said " What is it you think, your W will somehow get drunk and jump into the sack with some other man?"

At this point, I reminded her, that is the exact reason we were sitting in front of her at this point!!!! She became very silent at this point, realizing her horrible blunder!!

Good grief, what horrible theripists there are out there today, with a cazilion letters after their name. It's a sham1

All blessings,
Jerry

Sad to say, that's way to common. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> 2 many think their degree qualifies them as experts. This IC/MC stuff is more than just quoting textbook responses.

I'd ask for my $$ back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Even here on MB amongst those who have been through this stuff, sometimes bad advice or support is given. That is why it is vital each person coming here to learn, READ the info and then DIGEST it so they will know HOW to apply it properly in their personal situation.

I found it helpful to learn the info so that I was able to discern the good from bad advice. I applied what I knew w/b helpful (even if at times it was hard to take) and then discarded the stuff that was counter productive.

In order to do that, I had to read and meditate on the info. It is vital NOT to be gullible and only read from the posts. It is important to balance it with good MC support as well.

JMHO,
L.

Jerry, Orchid mentioned something that I think is the most vital part of counseling, as well as healing from adultery.

Discernment.

The wisdom of God, seek it, learn it, embrace it, live it.

Especially in this "post modern" world of philosophy.

God bless.

The "christian" counselor put the nail in the coffin of my marriage by flat out playing into my wife's deception and lies to why we were really there.

She played him with christian language and never told the truth.

Instead of trying to give reasons to save our marriage, he torpedoed it.

I called him the next day after she said she was going through with the divorce and asked him if she had fessed up to him about her adultery and he was absolutely shocked and told me no, that she was claiming I was codependant and her description of my snooping made me the "poster child" for codependancy.

I played him the tape of her wanting to have me killed and the conversations between her and OM, plus I showed him the text messages from the phones.

He got PLAYED, and he I blame for the point of no return in my marriage.

I NEVER even got an apology from the coward POS.

STAY AWAY FROM "CHRISTIAN" COUNSELORS!!!!!!

AT ANY COST!!!!

The first counselor we saw after D-Day told me not to ask any questions about the A and ordered Patriot to REFUSE to answer any of my questions.

Oh please, Pariah, some of the BEST counselors out there are Christian counselors. In fact, it was a Christian counselor who brought my husband to God and sent us to Marriage Builders. There is another saved marriage on this board from that same counselor.

Even so, your experience demonstrates why its a waste of time to go a counselor when you DON'T WANT HELP and represents what seems to be the rule rather than the exception. Most counselors don' know butkus about adultery. Your C could not help someone [your WS] who doesn't want to be helped. No counselor CAN. I always cringe when I hear some BS pushing their WS into counseling because usually it ends in the disaster you described. Counselors are not psychics and usually are not adept at discerning liars.

I have been in AA for 22 years and alcoholics routinely laugh about how easy it is to fool counselors. They are virtually useless to a person who is intent on fooling them. This is why it makes no sense whatsoever to go to a C when there is an ongoing affair and deception is taking place.

It is my opinion that marriage counselors in general cause more harm than good because they DO NOT understand the dynamics of adultery. [or the dynamics of what makes a good marriage] Because they do not understand adultery, they take the fog babblings of waywards seriously and help them plan ACCORDINGLY. They encourage them to make permanent changes based on a temporary state of mind. They believe their rewriting of history and cannot separate the true from the false. Instead of helping the marriage, they become DIVORCE FACILITATORS and encourage "amicable" divorces.

Dr.Harley talks alot about the marriage counseling culture and how its track record of FAILURE changed his career. Marriage counselors have a 16% success rate, the very lowest of any counseling discipline. He explains that this is WHY he founded Marriage Builders.

Pariah - I can see that you are angry and hurting (justifiably as a result of adultery), but just out of sincere curiousity, not to argue with you, a couple of questions if I may.

Do you think that anyone who says they are a "Christian" IS a truly born again Christian? If not, why not?

Is there a difference between possessing and professing a faith in Christ?

Do you think that the ability to be deceived by someone is only applicable to a Christian?


[color:"tan"]"The "christian" counselor put the nail in the coffin of my marriage by flat out playing into my wife's deception and lies to why [b][color:"blue"]we[/color] were really there."[/color][/b]

If you had all of the information to corroborate your wife's position, why didn't you present that information to the counselor while you and your wife were in counseling?


[color:"tan"]"I played him the tape of her wanting to have me killed and the conversations between her and OM, plus I showed him the text messages from the phones."[/color]

Why did you allow the "deception" to continue without presenting the facts in your possession while you two were in counseling?

Who was it that brought infidelity into your marriage, the counselor or someone else?

I know you're going to get blasted on this site for the above remark, but FWIW, I happen to agree with you.

I would much rather be counselled by someone who had faith in themselves, than by someone who had faith in some "other" entity.

I think what determines how qualified a counselor is is whether you come away from the sessions better off or ready to divorce. The first year of our marriage, DH and I went to a counselor. We would walk into the place holding hands (we had some issues we wanted to work out to ensure the best marriage possible), and would walk away practically ready to file for divorce. The counselor would simply pit us against each other. In my case, DH from the start stated that he "never did anything wrong." I had a different approach -- I actually took responsibility for my issues, and she sided with him and the sessions became all about me as the problem. For example, I would say something like "H is a lavish spender and I am frugal." She remarked "well, you say you're frugal." Even H backed my comments, admitting they were true. She had a look on her face of being rebuffed. Another time I'm explaining a problem with her, and she says, "well, he doesn't seem that way to me." Uh, she had only met him twice before that for two hours. Fortunately, we found a counselor at our church, he was the head counelor, and was very experienced, and didn't take sides, which I think is key.

I don't put all my faith in any one marriage counselor, of any sort. I put my faith in my willingness to implement the things that will improve my marriage, and to admit that I'm part of the problem.

It seems that many marriage counselors are out there helping folks with amicable divorces, these days, helping the resistant partner get on board, or convincing the HARMED spouse to drop it and move on. How can this bring intimacy back to a marriage? I'm not interested in that type of counseling.

I like the Harleys' methods, and I've also found local coaches who use very similar methods to help folks find their way back to love and marriage. These methods are about marriage, not divorce.

I think Melody also touched on the subject that going to counselling with an unwilling party is feudal. I have not been to counselling with my FWH for that very reason; he is unwilling. I wanted to do MB counselling together; he's not willing.

Are there unqualified therapists out there, just going thru the motions to make a buck? Sure, but it's up to us to ferret them out and find the best fit for us (with a willing partner)

A "Christian" therapist completely saved me and my marriage. He did not use the Bible or anything in his counseling, just a set of values. He was strong enough to stand up to my husband and his BS, but smart enough to know that quoting the Bible was not going to be helpful for my H at that time.

Christian or not, you have to "shop" for therapists. A referral from someone you know is best. Otherwise, you just have to go with your instincts and how you feel when you are with the counselor.

I think you hit on the bottom line, SL, it is up to US to educate ourselves and find the good ones. But most ppl do not KNOW what constitutes good counseling. I know I sure didnt! I thought counseling was some MAGIC PILL, and it is anything BUT.

A real good book on the counseling culture is One Nation under Therapy - How the Helping Culture is eroding self reliance by Christina Hoff Sommers and Salley Satel, M.D. It is an expose of the various myths we have been led to believe about the effectiveness of counseling.

I also thought at one time that it was productive to pay someone to listen to me blather on endlessly about my "childhood" grievances. It never solved a damn thing for the PRESENT and just kept me riled up and resentful about my past. Really a stupid waste of time and money. It ocurred to me once that I could sit home and blather on endlessly FOR FREE!

The only one who benefited was the C getting paid. Like Dr Harley says, when they get into your "childhood," run for the hills, because you know it will never get to the real problem.

I think, also, that Americans have been conned into thinking that they NEED to "talk it out" in C if they experience any dilemma in life. Nothing could be further from the truth. Studies reveal that is a load of CRAP that even leads to depression in some. Sure, some do benefit from "talking it out," but most DO NOT. And for some, it makes the problem WORSE!

When my 18 yr old son died, grief counselors at school descended on my 17 yr old like vultures pushing him to "talk it out." They were under the illusion that was the only way for him heal. BULLCRAP. I called them up and told them to knock it off and leave him alone. If he needed to "talk" anything out, he would do it at home.

To clarify, I am not denying that some people DO greatly benefit from counseling. That is a TRUE FACT. But more often they don't, and more often than that, they don't even NEED counseling in the first place.

I now know not to trust anyone who claims to be "christian".

Remember my pastor sent us to this "counselor" AND then he turned around and asked me not to return to our church as divorce is not allowed by "christians".


Big time.

Never met someone of the former. Met lots of the latter.

They are the ones who shun and abandon you in your hour of need.

Turn you into a pariah.


No.

However this "counselor" claimed to be "in tune with god".


I TRUSTED him. I figured he would be able to see through her lies and rewriting of our marriage history.

She flat out told him everything I would tell him would be fabricated.

He believed her.



He counseled us seperately and I hoped she being a "christian" would confess and be truthfull.

I was disasterously wrong.



Like I mentioned before he counseled us seperately.

I didn't bring up the infidelity.

I dind't know she was being deceptive until he told me what she had told him.


I don't understand this inquiry.

Is it rhetorical?

If so, I really don't need a reminder of the disaster.

I live with it every day as I lost everything.

Thanks to all for the replies.

You've all basically endorsed what my original thinking was in the first place. I think it is next to impossible to actually find a good MC or IC who truly has a clue about infidelity. They are just as likely as a WS to want to quickly sweep it under a rug and ignore it, which is exacltly what most WS's want to do.

A little tidbit I gleaned from Dr. Shirlee Glass in "not just friends," was that 62 percent of all family therepists will advise the WS not to tell the BS about their unfaithfulness, as it will only complicate the M difficulties. Does this sound like they know what they are doing? Doesn't even resemble what Dr H has to say about the subject. So I ask you, who has the better track record?

All Blessings,
Jerry

FWIW, I believe there are plenty of good therapists out there, it's just that most "consumers" of the service don't know how to "test drive" or "interview" them properly.

Our first MC turned out to be a great IC, but was horrifically unequipped to understand or deal w/ infidelity. Her "advice" to WW was similar to much of the above...meant to avoid conflict.

I "interviewed" the IC/Family C thoroughly before engaging her to counsel our children. She's spot on...

"Christian"...come on people, it matters not what "flavor" the person is...I think that almost ALL religions...no, all people of any degree of faith in "goodness", know that adultery is wrong.

Like all things, caveat emptor

Or, "trust, but verify"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L2F

This actually really burns me up. It's not just MCs, but ICs as well. I've been through a couple during this process and considering the state you are in when you seek out counselling, it would be nice if there was a way to screen out the useless ones. Degrees, education and certification seem to mean very little.

On top of it all, adultery has every characteristic of a disease. People with this illness NEED treatment. Why the heck can't that be provided by the so-called professionals out there?

So if I could play devil's advocate for a moment,

Why then do we recommend to newbies entering into Plan a that one of their boudaries should be for WS to agree to enter into MC, when the truth of the matter is that it is really a roll of the dice that it will truly do anything to R the M?

I'm thinking that unless one recommeds DR h, Steve, or Jennifer, the result of going outside that spectrum could turn out to be the biggest disaster possible, and we all had a hand in it!

I guess that's the point of my post in the first place. Remember, 62 percent of all MC recommend not telling the BS what has happened!

Just my own humble opinion.

Thanks and
All Blessings,
Jerry

I think the bumper sticker says "go to counseling!" <squeek> So without thinking, we just tell anyone with a problem to go to a counselor. That is how we have been programmed. Its just one of those bumper sticker things we say without thinking. <squeek>

What Mel said.