The more I read on this site them ore I am convinced that some people really need to develop a backbone.
I see BW's excusing bad behavior and even going so far as to suggest family money being given to the OW ho so that she can see the world? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I see a long time poster here that seemed to have finally "got it" joking around with his wife who just moved with the OM....and then asking if they need anything for their new digs. Laundry...sure bring it over! Uggghhhh.

I see people that put up with no sex from their spouse....others that tolerate "remembrances" hanging in their homes....

I for one would rather be single if being married meant I needed to be so emasculated. I really wonder about the ability of some here to stand up for themselves. Very sad indeed.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I don't disagree with you. I have definately felt emasculated in all of this. However, I will only put up with it for so long. I will work my tail off to recover my M not only for me but the kids. But I will not stay in a loveless M forever.

I think some people have different way of handling things. I couldn't finance a single thing of an A, period! But having said that I know I haven't handled my recovery perfectly either. I am getting better everyday.

MEDC, all I could tell you is what's good for some, isn't good for others. I'm probably more in line with you though.

I think that conflict avoiding comes with a very, very high price and sadly, some are more than willing to pay that price. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I was exactly this way before the A with her. I didn't want to upset her. It got 10 times worse after D-Day. But as I slowly climb out of my own fog I realize that I will never be that way again. I refuse to put up with it. Well after Plan A anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I agree, was talking about this very thing in my own thread in Recovery.

I think it really revolves around a misunderstanding of Plan A, Lovebusters vs. Truth, and Boundary Establishment.

I see a pattern in many sitchs where the BS shows up a blubbering mess (understandable) and then gets thier feet under them and begins to take charge of thier life. The ones that quickly realize that their WS has in effect already left the marriage and realize that they can live without thier WS and would RATHER live without them than live with an A seem to have both a better chance of recovering thier M and a better chance of recovering themselves even if the M isn't saved.

I think also that many are encouraged to hold in Plan A MUCH longer than they should. Once a STRONG Plan A has been shown to be ineffective for a long stretch, it should be ended and Plan B implemented. I think the overly long Plan A's actually harm the M as the WS comes to view the BS's Plan A behavior as doormat behavior and it feeds thier sense of entitlement and lack of respect for the BS. Plan A behavior actually becomes a lovebuster in thier minds. We should be encouraging and discussing boundary establishment and teaching the BS to act with honor, integrity, and from the truth. Not coaching them to compromise themselves. I see alot of that. Its not blatant, its just a gradual thing that creeps into a situation.

MEDC,

What a great thread. I was thinking last night as I feel myself coming to the situation a little differently that I never really did feel much anger.

For me, when WH was home I lived anger and now that he isn't. I don't feel that darkness inside. Because I had a part of my M's destruction. And I was in the mindset that what my WH thought of me ruled how I responded. He thought of me as trash and kicked me to the curb and I accepted that because I was so desparate to get my M back.

This past Tuesday I jumped off Mt. Rainier into my life. I'm soaring with G-d. This past Saturday, I stood up for myself by taking back what is right, honest and true. Until it happens, I am still this man's wife and as such I can and will support him.

I walked off that field with a new sense of freedom, empowerment and self-respect and that was how I got angry. He can live in his world of fantasy, but I am not going to.

I really wish you would stop over on my thread and nudge me a little on how to keep taking back and gaining my self respect. This is so new to me.

Anger - is usually the result of hurt or fear, at least that is what my sponsor says. How to handle anger appropriately is something I am learning to do.

Preach on, MEDC.

We disagree strongly on a few issues, but on this issue, we are in lock-step. I am disgusted by a lot of the behavior I see on this site, which gets justified and encouraged by long time posters, who it appears are in just as bad of a marital state as many they are "advising".

It seems the majority of the truly "healthy" posters here have either divorced and found happiness/peace on their own, or both partners are fully committed to recovery and are BOTH active here.

Personally, I tend to ignore the long time posters with high post counts that "claim" to be recovered, but spend way too much time on this site to have a "healthy" marriage. It just seems they are looking to feel better about themselves by advising people who are in even worse situations than they are. They then tend to define "recovery" based on their own dysfunctional standards.

Sorry, for the side rant, but I do agree with you about posters, especially BH's, being much better off if they would take a stronger stand and go directly to Plan D if the WW won't immediately agree to end the A upon discovery. IMHO, if they don't do this, they may "recover" the M, but at a level that most of us wouldn't accept as a "viable" loving M.

IMHO...sometimes...ANGER is justified and a response to injustice. Anger can be very motivating and contrary to what some here would advocate...I DO advocate acting when you are angry. Anger should not be confused with rage though. Rage causes people to act blindly while anger gives their feelings the "legs" they ned to act.

QNL...I have checked out your thread. You seem to be doing well. Why not tell me what you are feeling...and lets go from there.

Self respect is something you can claim today...it doesn't require one thing from another person. YOU get to decide how others will treat you...what you will tolerate.

I happen to agree with MEDC and MyRev on this one. I have read too many posts where the BS Plan As for what seems like forever.

I did not find MB until after my FWH and i were in recovery and i did (sort of) Plan A and Plan B, but there is no way in he(( that i would have did Plan A for very long. It was a total of two weeks from D-Day to Plan A to Plan B for me. And i was very pissed off when he came home after the first promise of NC and there had been contact. I made him leave that very minute and told him i never wanted to see his face again (plan B).

MEDC,

I am walking out the door to work. But if I had to start with that I am feeling. It's the complete confusion over the situation. I want to see the truth of my part in the breakdown of the M so I can change myself and ensure it doesn't happen again.

My sense of reality and no self worth get caught up and I don't know what really happened or not.

Does that make sense?

Anger is motivating, but I think what you are talking about is self respect, the self respect needed to set boundaries and not allow certain things to happen to you. I lost this as a new BS but gradually rebuilt it as I disentangled myself from WSTBXH and realized they were his lies and his choices that destroyed our M. But believe me, I was angry even when I was putting up with crap and getting walked on. My choice to stop attempting marital recovery was a big step in the right direction for my personal recovery. Curiously, this was also when WSTBX's attitude changed toward me as well. It made me realize what a well executed Plan A/B really needs - actual true self respect. I admit it was easier when I really did believe I could live without him. If I could have portrayed that earlier on, perhaps my M might have had a chance. It probably still could if he wasn't such a lyin', cheatin' piece of crap that I really am better off without.

QNL...if you are having a hard time piecing together what happened in the past..I say just focus on the here and now and the person you are today. Figure out your strengths and weaknesses...and cultivate one while you are weeding the other. You will never be perfect...but really, you don't have to be. Your part in the breakdown of your M was not the cause of his affair. His lack of character and integrity saw to that.
So, just work on you...don't worry about the cheater any longer. Be the best person you can be and if he comes along for the ride...fine...if not, his loss.

I agree Tabby. It is about self respect.

This also drives me crazy and it happens way more than I ever imagined. People actually sell there soul to get back someone who is being so cruel to them.

Too many are a doormat and that is exactly what they get in return. Then they wonder why.

You have to stand for something. You have to be willing to walk a way and say that is a dealbreaker for me.

You need to give and get in return. It is the balancing of the giver and taker. It is an unchecked giver or an unchecked taker that causes many many problems.

There has to be some reasonableness and respect. Giving and letting someone walk all over them is not reasonableness nor is it respect.

There has to be an incentive to change. There has to be a carrot and a STICK. The stick is often forgotten in hopes of not making the situation worse and it is the backbone that so many need that will drive the respect that they so need.

MEDC,

What a great thread topic. LaLa and I have been discussing this very thing for the past week and we were planning to put together a thread to address just these issues. There are so many BSs stuck in perpetual Plan A right now. I think in large part because what you really never see being discussed is how difficult things can be even after the WS returns to the M. The analogy I like most is that As are like hurricanes. The first part of the storm is actually trying to get the A ended. Then, there is the eye of the storm which amounts to the honeymoon phase where the WS returns to the M. But what's never discussed is the most difficult part IMHO where the BS must accept all the things that the WS put them through during the A. It's one thing to think you can get over it just by your spouse ending the A, but actually "getting over" everything you endured during the A is another thing all together. Maybe even worse then ending the A in the first place. It can be excruciating. And that's under the best circumstances where both spouses are fully on board with recovery.

I don't mean to point any fingers, I was certainly guilty of this very thing in my own situation. We are paying the price for it now, even as wonderfully as LaLa has embraced our recovery. I knew for 6 months that I was never going to be able to accept what I was being offered as recovery, but I turned a blind eye to it. Mostly out of fear of being reduced to a part time dad. To me, that fate seemed worse than death. Finally it reached a point where I could no longer take it and that's how we ended up here.

I think the only way to get the complacency to end is for all of us to be more blunt about recovery. No more sugar coating things. The reality is that something dramatic must happen in 85% of As for the marriage to recover. Whether that be plan b, a line in the sand, or plan fu.

Just my .02 cents.....

Want2Stay

It's sad but I have seen people here willing to throw away everything...including their life...in order to hold on to a wayward spouse. If you are ever in a place where you think there is only one person that you could ever love...no matter how poorly they are treating you...I think it is time for some serious therapy.

I think BS are their own worst enemy very often...Plan A does not mean kissing someones [censored] or risking your mental or physical health. Recovery does not mean accepting table scraps just so the WS comes home and doesn't leave again. There are some marriages here that I think have truly recovered and while not perfect...certainly are a blessing to the couple. Others, I just shake my head at and wonder if the cajones are kept in the freezer or fridge...
BH seem to be a weaker lot post affair than BW IMHO (although there are some BW here that make me shake my head too).

Bottom line is, I think people need to stand up for themselves and if it means they lose the marriage, so be it. There are worse things in this world than divorce.

People do what they can with what they have and what the know at the time. I was just looking at old posts of mine from a few years ago, and I'm baffled at some of the things I said/did/appeared 2 allow then, and how I felt about the things I said/did/appeared 2 allow a few years prior 2 that. Mostly now, I'm amused. But I'm also curious. I've learned a lot about myself and what I could have done at the time.

And then there's the befuddlement I feel about people who aren't dealing with active affairs who nonetheless have managed 2 find the time and the interest 2 average something over 3000 posts/year. Don't those people have lives 2 lead?

-ol' 2long

I think fear plays a big role in it - fear of losing WS, fear of being alone, fear of poverty/financial crisis, fear of being a part time parent, fear of the stigma of divorce - all sorts of fears. These fears can be crippling and can prevent that crucial step towards self respect. Perhaps what is needed is some basic skills toward overcoming these fears. I really like what you said here MEDC:

"Bottom line is, I think people need to stand up for themselves and if it means they lose the marriage, so be it. There are worse things in this world than divorce."

This really is true. It took me a while to see it but when I did, things started to change for me. The crazy thing is that when you do stand up for yourself even at risk of your M, you actually stand a better chance at saving your M. Go figure.

i fell more befuddled by people that always say they are leaving but have such an addiction to posting that they can't seem to let go.

Mostly for me looking at things I did in retrospect, it's fear of change that was the biggest stumbler for me, not the fear of losing my W. It 2k us a long time 2 accumulate the stuff we have and the positions we hold. Now, I see it as just stuff and positions.

People get over their fears when the get over their fears, and not a minute earlier.

I've said something like this a million times before, but Dr Phil said it better:

"I wouldn't take a million dollars for the lessons I've learned, but I wouldn't give you a dime 2 experience them again."

-ol' 2long

There's probably reasons. I'm no long time poster, but I'm not trying to recover my M and I'm still here and posting. Some of it is part of my own personal recovery. Some of it is for my own education (I wouldn't be here at all if I'd known about MB before). I can't see myself staying here for years but I'm not ready to go yet. I'm sure the long time posters have their own reasons.